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Question about Hell
Posted on: February 19, 2007 - 11:03am
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Question about Hell
Premises: (A) Satan rebelled against God because he didn't want to serve (B) Satan rules over Hell (C) Humans are sent to Hell for rebelling against God and not wanting to serve (D) Satan tortures people in Hell
Is there ANY Xian out there who can explain why Satan would torture people who are like-minded with him?
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Maybe the christian idea of torture is people having fun with like minded independants and not living in constant fear of the "big guy's" wrath?
We've all heard the argument that "Hell" is a removal from god's presence. They seem to think that in and of itself is torture. Yeah, though, I agree, why would Satan torture people for going against god? You'd think he would reward them or something (72 virgins?), you'd think hell would be a big party for blasphemers!
The darkness of godlessness lets wisdom shine.
Christian mythology seems really mixed up over Satan.
In Job he was God's prosecutor, the angel responsible for bringing sinners to justice. "Lucifer" the fallen star who was cast from the heavens was actually a mis-translation by a 5th century roman whose manuscripts were used for the KJV - 'Lucifer' is hebrew for morning star rather than a name. It referred to a Babylonian King.
Anyone know of the other 'devil stories' in the Bible?
The only other appearances I know of is the beast in Revelations, the temptations of Jesus in the desert and the snake in the garden of Eden.
Once I was talking with a Christian group and I brought up this passage:
Genesis 3:14
Then the Lord God said to the serpent,
"Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all animals, domestics and wild.
You will crawl on your belly, groveling in the dust as long as you live."
This led to the question; If the snake was doomed to slither from this day forth, then what had he been doing before?
The first thought was that the snake used to bounce around like Tigger from Winnie the Pooh. This led to jokes about Disney being another work of Satan to corrupt children.
Then a girl came up with the idea that the snake used to have legs which he lost as punishment, which was boringly sensible until you image what a snake must've looked like with long lanky legs!
I wonder if any theist will answer this.
Wouldn't a snake with legs look remarkably like a lizard?
Yes.
Sigh.
I will just say that even though these aren't my arguments, I will try to help out the society of mainstream Christianity.
Lucifer doesn't like humans because they were God's favorite creation. Since they were, after all, made in the image of Him.
And I wouldn't say he necessarily tortures them, but that they have no choice but to be tortured being in an eternal hell with fire and brimstone... Lucifer isn't having a picnic, either.
Also, in the book of Job, Lucifer was just testing Job's loyalty to God. Therefore, God lifted his protection from Job so Lucifer could see if he would give. The rest is history.
LOL @ "The rest is history."
If that was intentional - I like your style. So do you lean toward literal interpretation or allegory/metaphory?
Also - I always thought the christian take kinda castrated the devil, which is just as important an element in the hebrew tradition as all the others. He basically receives one big massive bitchslap at the start and then, essentially, does exactly what god tells him afterwards. He's more a robot by the time it gets to the NT.
Devil is a useful link back to base nature and celebrating that, rather than repressing it, seems to be the antithesis of the christian tradition. Hence all the wierdass sexual taboos.
the Baby Jesus Show R18 - Episode 2 now on youtube
I'm curious why you called him Lucifer just after the post where I pointed out the name 'Lucifer' was based on a mistranslation? (modern translations of the Bible have corrected it to 'morning star'
I guess that's a possible interpretation.
I really don't know how to respond to this, seeing as I'm a Christian and I don't believe A-D.
Interesting...do you view all Christians as believing this formula?
I obtained my Black Belt in History. Don't mess with this Master Historian.
To Redeeminator, yes, it was intentional. Haha. To your question, it really depends. I can't honestly say which one. Its up to the person to decide which they think is metaphorical and which is literal. However, since the said person right now is me, I'll go ahead and say metaphorical.
To Strafian, I just like the name Lucifer better. Heh... And some people consider Lucifer's name to be Morning Star and so on and so forth.
And in what image is this "Lucifer" guy, to whom I will refer as "the devil" from now on, made? Because I fail to remember that.
We are told that the devil is an ex-angel. Shouldn't that make him look more like an angel? If that is so, what's so fundamentally different about angels in their image?
Why would God chose as "favorite creation" something that is so frail, so "sinful" and so powerless? Because I don't quite understand. Sounds more like the story that teachers tell to pre-high-schoolers: "You're definitely my favorite class, the others are noisy and disrespectful.", the only ptroblem being that he/she tells that to every class.
No choice given by whom exactly?
If there is no God in Hell, that means there are no rules imposed by him. Why would that constitute eternal torture, is beyond me.
And what is the devil having, if not a picnic (metaphorically)?
I'm sure the devil could have just asked God, if they were such good friends as to make bets, whether or not Job would give in or not. After all, God knows the answer, since He is omniscient, right?
Besides, if God's so-called protection is on every of us, how can the devil influence us to do anything? Doesn't that mean that sin is God's doing as well?
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
Part of this is where my views and mainstream Christianity's views differ, but I will try my best to answer from theirs.
On the question of how Angels and Humans looks differ: Wings could be one.
On the question of why we are God's favorite creation: Good question. I truly cannot know why we are. Its like asking a man why his favorite color is green. I can only guess that its because he sent us to rule over the creatures of Earth.
On the question of whose choice it is that they suffer: Now, what I was trying to say was that they had no choice once they got in there to suffer. I didn't say they didn't have a choice on entering it or not.
On the question of what the devil is having: Vodka on the rocks...
On the question of Job: God held personal protectin over Job because Job was so faithful. So faithful it caused Lucifer to be curious... God didn't know the answer... because we have free will...
On the question of if God leads us to sin: ^^^
"Vodka on the rocks"... good one!
So I restate my question: Why would entering Hell (no matter what way) automatically give the damned the only chance to suffer? THAT is what I don't understand. It's supposed to be (almost) total absence of God. Why would that necessarily mean suffering?
OK, so angels have wings... can't an angel cut down his wings, so that they'll look "more to the image of God" ?
If Satan can possess a snake to deliver the fatal apple to Eve, I'm certain he is more a master of animals here on Earth than any human will ever be.
I still don't see a man bare-handedly winning a fight with a hipo.
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
No, but watching a man fight a hippo would be funny as hell...
As far as I know, no angels have cut off their wings. So, I honestly couldn't know what would happen to the angels. I see three possibilites. They grow them back, they become human, or they become fallen angels.
The reason being in hell would mean torture is because... fire and brimstone... think about it... that would... hurt... Unless one wants to stick with the absence of God theory. However, I honestly don't think that's how it would work out... where the hell would they go?
On the question of the animals: Good question and good thought. I guess I should have said that when I meant masters, I didn't mean people with absolute control over them... Lucifer could probably possess anything, or anybody. Him possessing a human means something. It means that, if we let him, he'll become the master of us. Therefore, following the chain, he is the master of animals.
If god is everything then absence of god would be utter void. I can imagine how that would suck.
Also I think god favoured us because we were little original thinkers. Imagine if you had created a bunch of little entities, kinda like robots, who did everything you told them to. Then the guy next door comes along with a little sandbox and his ones are all endowed with free will and there's all sorts of art and war and philosophy and literature and stuff, going on.
Wouldn't you look at the little cratures who were washing your dishes and cleaning the stairs and digging the garden and stuff and think "Yesterdays entities!" ?
I know I would.
the Baby Jesus Show R18 - Episode 2 now on youtube
You've got that right!
I believe someone tried that in a cage of lions. He was also screaming happily. Something like "God will save me, if he exists." I actually enjoyed watching the lions snap his vertebrae 2-4 even if the film was censored a bit.
Good question you pose there. It's all about what version you accept: absence of God, fire and brimstone, or maybe both.
First one is a philosophical problem, second one a moral problem.
That, Dylan, reminds me of something horrible.
Some time ago in my country (Romania, I guess you've noticed my pic), at a monastery in Tanacu a priest and four nuns had the wild impression that one of the nuns in their monastery was possessed by the Devil. They tied her to the bed and, when the woman obviously started to struggle and scream, they tied her to a cross, in chains, and "exorcised" her for three days, with no food or water. Logically, the nun in question died.
It reminded me because today was the upbringing of the final decision, and sentence: 14 years of jail for the priest, 8 years for one of the nuns and 5 for each of the other three. The decision is yet to remain final.
They didn't even think they'll spend a night more in jail before the sentence today, and many were surprised of the sentence. Quoting someone: "But all they did was remove the Devil!"
I feel sick.
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
Haha.
I do admit that there are people out there who take their job too seriously.
For one, the guy in the lions' cage? He brought that on himself...
The nuns and priest? They're paranoid and deserve their sentence. That whole exorcise crap bugs me.
Please, though, do not judge all Christians on what you see on the news.
P.S. I did see your pic. Creative.
Of course I'm not judging everyone based on these nutcases. I've met honest, good and smart theists, no worries.
(pic idea not original)
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
It seems like (from what I'm reading) in Job 1:8, god is bragging about Job's loyalty. God eventually dares satan to try and break Job's loyalty (Job 1:12).
So the god of the bible isn't omniscient? From what I'm reading it sounds more like Satan didn't know the answer and god was proving it to him.
3 questions:
In your view:
a) Did god create everything?
b) Is god omniscient?
c) Is god omnipotent?
-Triften
To answer your question on Job: Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Answers to questions 1-3:
1. He started the process.
2. He knows everything, but he chooses not to control everything. Free will.
3. Yes.
P.S. Credit on answers 1-3 goes to my brother, Tyler.
Why did you leave out 1:8 and 1:12?
But at the time, he created everything that was, right?
All I asked was if god is omniscient.
So, if he is, how could he have not known the answer of the question of Job's loyalty as you stated above?
-Triften
On why I didn't mention Job 1:8 and Job 1:12: You already did... But here they are anyway:
Job 1:8 - And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:12 - And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from th presence of the Lord.
So, God gave him permission because Satan was thinking that Job wasn't as faithful as God thought.
On your question asking if God created everything that was: Yes.
On your question asking if he knew the extent of Job's loyalty: In his mind, he didn't even need to be all-knowing to know that Job was the most loyal. He knew Job wouldn't give in. When I said "God didn't know the answer," I was trying to bring across the point that everyone has a free will. The future isn't set in stone. So, the events could have changed with intervention.
I better clear something up. When I said God could have known without even being all-knowing, I mean the same kind of "know" like "I know the Colts are going to win the Super Bowl." It just might not happen...
Are you saying that god can be incorrect?
God "knows" that Job will be loyal but it can turn out otherwise, so god could be wrong?
-Triften
Hm... perhaps God did know the answer. As a matter of fact, after critical thinking, I am sure of it. I was wrong.
God did know the answer, but Lucifer didn't. And Lucifer being his ol' self, didn't recognize God's great power and thought he could lead Job away from God.
Just a little off thought there for a second.
i'm still confused here; why fire and brimstone instead of say, daisies and office desks? what role does torture play in Hell? is fire and brimstone compatible with the idea of the absence of god? who created the fire and brimstone (according to the standard Christian view which you understand)? is lucifer removing free will from souls in hell or is God?
Some general points about Hell:
If you're in hell and get pissed at someone, where do you tell them to go?
It might be really bad at first, but after a little bit wouldn't you be like "This ain't so bad."
Wouldn't all the cool people be there - and all the engineers, scientists, etc - and they'd be able to figure out how to cool it of, fix it up, etc - be a real pimpin' place - and all the porn stars and everything... fuck Heaven - praying with Christians??? Fuck that, I'd rather be in hell.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Okay, so if god knew everything that was going to happen when he made everything, why did he make it so that Job would be tortured like that?
-Triften
Yeah, but MattShizzle, you also have the lawyers.
And to answer your question, hello:
Psalm 11:5 - The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth
Psalm 11:6 - Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
He did it to prove Lucifer that Job was extremely faithful. Sure, Job was met with excruciating pain and loss of everything he had, but he was given so much more in return.
Sorry to jump in late, but anyone ever read this book by Rabbi Harold Kushner When Bad Things Happen to Good People ?
He states that the Job story is intended to be allegory not unlike many of the OT stories. Hint: when the passage reads something like: "Now God could find NO man but one in the land who was pure..." that's pretty much fable, (see Noah, Sodom&Gomorrah, Job, etc).
EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!
Why did he have to prove it to lucifer? Why would god torture this man for the benefit of satan?
-Triften
Shouldn't God have known how he'd react without actually testing him? I'd have told God to go get fucked up the ass with a chainsaw sideways if he did one tenth that shit to me.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Yes, the book of Job could be metaphorical. In Gnosis, you have a Higher Self and a Divine Mother. You also have an Anti-Divinity. The book of Job could possibly represent this. God - Higher Self. Lucifer - Anti-Divinity.
God didn't torture Job. Lucifer did. However, God did lift his protection. It was just something he wanted to prove to Lucifer.
God did know, but Lucifer didn't. And if Lucifer was dumb enough to defy God in the first place, he's dumb enough to question God on something. So God proved it.
In Gnosis, the Old Testament God isn't even the Most High God. The Old Testament God to them was The Demiurge. But this isn't part of Mainstream Christianity so this should just be left out for now.
But why did God need to prove anything to Lucifer?
Additionally, where did lucifer come from?
-Triften
He didn't need to. He just did...
And Lucifer was an angel... so God created him like the other angels...
If he's really omniscient and should have known Lucifer was going to be the devil, didn't he fuck up big time creating him?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Gnosis Answer: The Demiurge isn't omniscient.
Mainstream Christianity Answer: Yeah. Big time.
sorry if this is already abundantly clear, i never understood the logistics of hell and the interplay between God and the devil (why should God indulge Lucifer at all?) and i've always been curious about it.
so, just to make sure I understand from the Bible versus you posted 1. god created hell. 2. hell is a place for the souls that God eternally hates.
3. (this is just my own conjecture) before souls entered a human at birth or conception God loved them. after the duration of a human life, he hates some of them.
also, does it say somewhere in the Bible specifically that Satan resides in fire and brimstone? is satan able to escape that fire and brimstone when he talks to God/tempts humans (and if so, why?) is lucifer's soul one of the souls that God hates?
As far as I know, God hates nobody. Its not his choice that some people go to hell because they don't accept Salvation.
On your question of if it actually says hell is a place with fire and brimstone: No. And?
On your question asking if Lucifer can escape hell: I wouldn't say escape as much as I would leave.
You do realise that a gnostic calling himself "christian" whilst actually making a truer statement than the average faithfool, is kinda misleading?
Not blaming you I'm trying to do the same thing with the word "God"
the Baby Jesus Show R18 - Episode 2 now on youtube
Hm... yeah.
I sort of said the answer from the Mainstream Christianity point of view as a sort of joke. If God wanted to make Lucifer, he had a good reason.
Now, Gnostics are much different than normal Christians. They have a whole altered set of beliefs, but the guidelines are the same and they both believe in God, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.