What would it take to change your beliefs?

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What would it take to change your beliefs?

    I've often mused over this question: What would have to occur for you to change your beliefs?

    For example I'll go first, and I will give my answer to the question.

 

 Current belief: The Christian God exists.

What would it take to get me to change that belief?  

The following are what immediately comes to mind:

 1. Successful human cloning. By "successful" I mean essentially that a human clone would be indistinguishable in all aspects (physical, mental, emotional, psychological, etc...) next to a naturally bred human being.

 2. Undeniable evidence that aliens exists.  By "undeniable" I would have to qualify this as me either touching one and attempting to communicate with it, and/or the entire world concurring that aliens exist i.e. they invade our planet or something at that level. 

 

I know I've only come up with silly ones, but I really do believe that they would have the power, if manifested, to do what I claim they could.

I look forward to the antics and hopefully lighthearted discussion.  Eye-wink 

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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Not even if your presumed

Not even if your presumed Deity Showed up knocking on my doopr introducing himself as God, I would have myself commited for schitzophrenia. quite frankly most schitzo's tend too be quite religios or God fearing people, however I am niether so this would never happen.

Nothing in my mind could change anything I I think and even if I died and there was god I would probably prefer to leave.

Eternity Sucks.

As for your Cloning if you theists would lighten up and allow us to do it I am sure it could be done. I mean we clone organs and then you have Dolly the Sheep. However this has nothing to do with god so why do make that point.

As far as the Alien thing goes we understand the high probability of life on othe planets, however the whole visitor thing is just a bunch of speculation for the unexplained so you are trying to tag Athiests with something most of us would claim as silly as the god conspiracy.

actually try being A railion, for the Alien Crap.

If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..


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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk

Link to Article

{ Edited so the long link didn't mess up the display -- by Tarpan }


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Slayne wrote: Not even if

Slayne wrote:

Not even if your presumed Deity Showed up knocking on my doopr introducing himself as God, I would have myself commited for schitzophrenia. quite frankly most schitzo's tend too be quite religios or God fearing people.

Nothing in my mind could change anything I I think and even if I died and there was god I would probably prefer to leave.

Eternity Sucks.

Fair enough.

Quote:
As for your Cloning if you theists would lighten up and allow us to do it I am sure it could be done. I mean we clone organs and then you have Dolly the Sheep. However this has nothing to do with god so why do make that point.

Well it does have to do with God because it is generally believed among theists that only God can create life. To me, this would challenge that God-only ability. Oh and don't group me in with "you theists"; I don't share many of the traditional theistic views on things i.e. researching cloning for example.

Quote:
As far as the Alien thing goes we understand the high probability of life on othe planets, however the whole visitor thing is just a bunch of speculation for the unexplained so you are trying to tag Athiests with something most of us would claim as silly as the god conspiracy.

I'm not trying to "tag" anything on anyone. Those possibilities were my personal speculations and have nothing to do with anyone else's view. Please read more carefully and don't jump to accusations where clearly no accusations have been made.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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stuntgibbon

stuntgibbon wrote:

Link to Article

{ Edited so the long link didn't mess up the display -- by Tarpan }

Wow. That's amazing. However, for it to have its full effect, I wanna see how the clone turns out. Nice article though. Definitely applicable.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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   What would it take to

   What would it take to change your beliefs?

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jread wrote: I've

jread wrote:

I've often mused over this question: What would have to occur for you to change your beliefs?

For example I'll go first, and I will give my answer to the question.

 

Current belief: The Christian God exists.

What would it take to get me to change that belief?

The following are what immediately comes to mind:

1. Successful human cloning. By "successful" I mean essentially that a human clone would be indistinguishable in all aspects (physical, mental, emotional, psychological, etc...) next to a naturally bred human being.

2. Undeniable evidence that aliens exists. By "undeniable" I would have to qualify this as me either touching one and attempting to communicate with it, and/or the entire world concurring that aliens exist i.e. they invade our planet or something at that level.

 

I know I've only come up with silly ones, but I really do believe that they would have the power, if manifested, to do what I claim they could.

I look forward to the antics and hopefully lighthearted discussion. Eye-wink

 

That's all it would take? You may not have the alien thing in our lifetime, but I think we'll see successful human cloning.

For me to believe in God all it would take is for God to make me believe in God (assuming we are talking about an all-powerful god).

A deistic or other type of god? I don't know what the undeniable evidence would be, but if it was there I would accept it. 


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jread wrote: [...] For

jread wrote:
[...]

For example I'll go first, and I will give my answer to the question. 

Current belief: The Christian God exists.

What would it take to get me to change that belief?  

The following are what immediately comes to mind:

1. Successful human cloning. By "successful" I mean essentially that a human clone would be indistinguishable in all aspects (physical, mental, emotional, psychological, etc...) next to a naturally bred human being.

Is it that it would be evidence against dualism? Like, if an identical person can be created, there's no supernatural "spark" needed, no dualist soul.

jread wrote:
2. Undeniable evidence that aliens exists.  By "undeniable" I would have to qualify this as me either touching one and attempting to communicate with it, and/or the entire world concurring that aliens exist i.e. they invade our planet or something at that level.

I'm curious about this one. I'm not versed in scripture, but is there something that precludes the scriptural account and life on other planets, more so, than say, the heliocentric model?

jread wrote:
I've often mused over this question: What would have to occur for you to change your beliefs?

At the risk of sounding glib, I'd be convinced of something by something convincing. The question is wide open, so I can't say much more than that.


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In a single word. Evidence

In a single word. Evidence


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jread wrote: I've

jread wrote:

I've often mused over this question: What would have to occur for you to change your beliefs?

For example I'll go first, and I will give my answer to the question.

 

Current belief: The Christian God exists.

What would it take to get me to change that belief?

The following are what immediately comes to mind:

1. Successful human cloning. By "successful" I mean essentially that a human clone would be indistinguishable in all aspects (physical, mental, emotional, psychological, etc...) next to a naturally bred human being.

2. Undeniable evidence that aliens exists. By "undeniable" I would have to qualify this as me either touching one and attempting to communicate with it, and/or the entire world concurring that aliens exist i.e. they invade our planet or something at that level.

 

I know I've only come up with silly ones, but I really do believe that they would have the power, if manifested, to do what I claim they could.

I look forward to the antics and hopefully lighthearted discussion. Eye-wink

Yeah. I'm pretty sure we will see human cloning pretty soon and by aliens do you mean any alien life form? Because its possible we will find alien life on planets or moons within our solar system in the near future. Both of your required evidences have a fair chance of occuring fairly soon. 

Would these things change your belief in a god (cause you to become atheist) or just your belief in the Christian god?

I was actually thinking about writing a post asking this question yesterday. I was wondering what the theist would accept as evidence that a god didn't exist. Being as that god is, from what I've been told, all-powerful, I don't see how any evidence could be considered evidence against him. If all states of affairs are possible given a god, then no state of affairs should be unexpected given a god. 

As to what it would take for me to change my belief, I really have no idea. There are things I think might, perhaps seeing a guy float down from the sky and walk on water while reciting the Bible and raising the dead, but this would very likely make me think I was  bat shit crazy before it would make me believe in a god. The problem with finding evidence for a god, from my view, is the same problem I mention above with finding evidence against a god. If the god in question is all powerful and therefor every possible state of affairs should be expected given the god, then no specific state of affairs can evidence a god as no state of affairs should be expected more than any other were there a god. 

Aside from that, aside from really involved crazy stuff like the raising the dead guy above, a naturalistic explanation is always so much more parsimonious given that everything I ever experience in day to day life has a naturalistic explanation. For me to form a god belief would take some seriously screwy shit going on and my somehow knowing I hadn't just finally taken that long overdue vacation from reality.  

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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O clones are possible and

O clones are possible and there are human natural clones , emmmm how do  you funny people name “ bliźniaki jednojajowe ”[PL] ?  The point is they have the same genetic material like : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twins#Identical_twins yep its just like a clone performed by a split of the zygote.
There you have you evidence agents god and it is possible to do this cloning normally in a lab.

On my part there is nothing completely nothing that will convince me of the existence of god ! You see I went to the land of the dead and returned and there are no gods !

I chocked to death all went black , next thing I see is a little  dot growing (silly that  people assume it’s a tunnel) it can be a planet and you are pulled in to it  into it or a object accelerating to you. And then the funs starts I start seeing washing machines and remember all the encounters with washing machines. Next thing I get revived and are 100% back. There are 2 possible conclusions :

 

1) There is a after life and my version is filed with washing mushiness


2) The post death nonsense is a hallucination and you brain goes gaga-gaga and you start seeing shit on this trip.

If I see a god I assume :
1) it’s a trick
2) I’m going insane/hallucinating

End of story no gods in the after life.

Warning I’m not a native English speaker.

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If god was some kind of

If god was some kind of super-super being, then god would know what it would take.

Otherwise, if god was just a "super"-being, then god would be either an ally or an enemy, but would would it be appropriate to call him/her "god"?

"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
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Emperical evidence, not

Emperical evidence, not really that hard.


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Vessel wrote: Would these

Vessel wrote:

Would these things change your belief in a god (cause you to become atheist) or just your belief in the Christian god?

Most likely agnostic atheist I'd imagine.  

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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magilum wrote: I'm curious

magilum wrote:

I'm curious about this one. I'm not versed in scripture, but is there something that precludes the scriptural account and life on other planets, more so, than say, the heliocentric model?

I agree. There may be some hint of other life in the Bible, however, this peice of evidence would change my perspective personally. Even if the Bible suggests that there may life on other planets, I would still have serious doubts that would arise.  

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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I want to see something

I want to see something that's rationally impossible, but not just anything... something the bible says.

For instance, someone praying to god and a mountain jumping into the sea would go a long way.

I want to see someone pray to god and an amputee to regrow an arm right there, with cameras rolling and doctors present.

Or... this is a really simple one, and I'd honestly love to see any theists who have enough faith to do it...

Get a theist who's in really good with the big guy, and has never travelled abroad, or had any foreign language experience.  We'll choose someone who speaks a very obscure language and put the two of them in a room together.  The theist prays to god, and then has a fluent conversation with the other dude, in a language he couldn't possibly know.

That would be good proof.

 

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I agree with slayne, there

I agree with slayne, there is absolutely nothing during my lifetime that would convince me of god.  Perhaps if the apocalypse in the bible started becoming literally true. Not just figuratively because it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy in a metaphorical sense.  I might start taking it serious.  I give that a 0% chance.

If I died and was aware of my own death, then continued to observe my funeral, etc, then went to some "other place", i might start believing in the supernatural.  I also give this a 0% chance.

 I am more interested in what you said though.  You would change your beliefs if we had proof of aliens or "perfect" human cloning?  That's hard to believe.  Historically, when science has PROVEN the bible wrong, christians have simply adapted their beliefs.  Proof of aliens or human cloning will be no exception, the religion will just morph to accept it, and the sheeple will keep believing.


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Exactly

Zombie wrote:
In a single word. Evidence

 Evidence is the short-version, but yes, evidence that contradicts my beliefs.

I think this is a question everybody needs to ask themselves.

Jread- Why Aliens??

 This is a very hard question for me to answer. Slayne brings up the important point of Schizophrenia. However, this could be overcome with multiple witnesses of the same event. Yes, memory and the human brain distort, but everybody who witnessed 911 agree that planes flew into a building. Given that it is unlikely that God would present himself to people, since he has not chosen to do so we have to look at other areas.

One area is consistent replications of studies that show that prayer works and that more religious communities have better societies. Unfortunately for theists there is no evidence to suggest so, and in fact quite the oppposite. Individuals who problem-solve a situation as oppossed to praying or wishful thinking are better off and make the best out of negative situations. Non-religious democratic societies are shown to have less social ills then religious democracies. You can only compare democracies because other forms of govt confound the results.

 

There would have to be repeated controlled studies that show that those who believe in God have better fortune and those who don't fall on bad times. Of course this is almost impossible to control given the thousands of different versions of what God considers moral or proper. This would be almost impossible to control for. Is it not eating meat or is it waiting to have sex until marriage. I DK. Of course this is a classic area where theists use circular reasoning. This is highlighted in such slogans as "God doesn't give people what they can't handle," "God is testing us," "We have not been following the exact word of God."

The problem with finding evidence for God is that it is unfalsifiable. No matter what the outcome there is some form of theism that is able to explain the results to fit the existence of a God. He is supernatural and we cannot understand therefore you can make him anything you want and you can constantly change what he is or isn't to fit the situation.

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Here's what I've written on

Here's what I've written on this recently:

How about the stars visible to the naked eye in the night sky shifting position to write out an ever-lasting, untamperable, message to all of mankind.

How about in 1935 the moon briefly broke from its tidal lock and spun around to show us the dark side, where a message has been written for us.

How about DNA samples from Jesus indicating a non-human element, confirmed by carbon dating to the correct time period and including an unbroken record of existence from contemporary times until present. Even the concept of Jesus son of god we have right now doesn't have contemporary records. Perhaps his DNA could use other chemicals besides A,C,G and T.

How about a sacred text that doesn't require metaphor to be interpreted, instead tells us plainly what is what. In fact, how about a sacred text that changes depending on who is holding it, so God could give a personalised message to everybody. People who lie about what is written in their copy could turn bright green until they admit they were lying.

How about a personal appearance to everybody at least once a generation, verifiable (at least in modern times) by cameras, camcorders and voice recorders.

How about not being so shy as to depend on faith (belief without evidence) and more on the same rational methods of discerning truth we utilise in the rest of our lives.

The amount of things God could do to provide evidence are practically endless, and they wouldn't contradict free will. If he actually wants our belief and is also so vain as to want our worship, then he is responsible for this. Blind faith would be an ironic gift to the creator of the human intellect (can't remember who that quote is from)


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Evidence   These videos

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jread wrote: What would

jread wrote:

What would have to occur for you to change your beliefs?

 

Somebody explaining the perfect design of the banana.

 

 

 

Or quantum information being destoryed. 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
 

Somebody explaining the perfect design of the banana.

 

I pee'd just a little bit while laughing. 


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jread wrote:     I've

jread wrote:

    I've often mused over this question: What would have to occur for you to change your beliefs?

  

If something occurred to lead me to believe there was a god, I would then know that my mind has failed.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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The problem is

The problem is presupositionalism. Anyone can postulate anything from an arbitrary standpoint and without solid data the goal posts can be moved in any direction in acordance to the disires of the whim made by the person making the presuposition.

I have heard by Muslims that Allah is real because algibra originated in the Middle east. I have heard from Christians that Thomas Aquinis knew about Quatum Michanics. And unfortunatly even today, I have heard(only one so far|)even an atheist specualte that the concept of the "Star Trec Transporter" is a possiblity based upon the ability of current science to absurve and manipulat photons.

Cloning in humans, seems to be, only at this point, a viable reality, weither or not we as humans should use it, is still a seperate issue than ethics and morals.

You should not be convinced that a god does or does not exist based on presupostition. As the old saying goes, "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a party."

IF a god does exist (highly unlikely givin the current argument's to date) but for argument's sake only, "IF" such a being existed, from a moral and efficiancy standpoint, he would be the most incompetint prick GIVEN THE PERAMERTERS OF THE ARGUMENT PROPOSED SO FAR.

 

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jread wrote: 2. Undeniable

jread wrote:

2. Undeniable evidence that aliens exists.

 

 


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Brian37 wrote: The problem

Brian37 wrote:
The problem is presupositionalism. Anyone can postulate anything from an arbitrary standpoint and without solid data the goal posts can be moved in any direction in acordance to the disires of the whim made by the person making the presuposition. [...]

Indeed, the first problem with the question whether one believes in a god is the assumption that the question is valid. One has to presuppose that whatever their conception of this is is accurate to answer the question either way. I literally don't know what it means, and I think the only difference between myself and a theist in that regard is that I admit this. That's why I tend toward an ignostic/noncognativist stance.


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You are really an atheist or agnostic!

jread wrote:

 Current belief: The Christian God exists.

What would it take to get me to change that belief?  

I don't believe that you really believe. You just pick and choose whatever parts of the bible you like and are not to offensive, then lie and say you believe this but not other parts.

The bible says believers can drink deadly poison and pick up deadly snake and not be harmed. It says you can move mountains with just faith. But you never have and will never do this cause your belief is phony.

If we hooked you up to a lie detector it would indicate your belief is phony. You'll never do a scientific study to prove god intervenes for prayer and tithing.

Face it you are a phony! You are not fooling many people. Just be honest with yourself and admit in your heart of hearts you are really an atheist or agnostic.

What it would take for me to believe in a Christian god is for people like you to prove you really believe and take these challenges.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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adams_antics wrote: I am

adams_antics wrote:

I am more interested in what you said though. You would change your beliefs if we had proof of aliens or "perfect" human cloning? That's hard to believe. Historically, when science has PROVEN the bible wrong, christians have simply adapted their beliefs. Proof of aliens or human cloning will be no exception, the religion will just morph to accept it, and the sheeple will keep believing.

Personally, it would not be easy for me to just "adapt" my belief. Other believers might be able to over look suchs things as "perfect" human cloning, but I can't see myself being able to do that.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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RationalSchema

RationalSchema wrote:

Jread- Why Aliens??

The existence and sbubsequent interaction with other intelligent life-forms would most likely change the way we view a lot of things. Personally, this discovery would change the way I think of God and would perhaps force me to reconsider my Christian faith because Aliens just don't seem to fit easily within the traditional belief system.

Just for some reason, Aliens existing stikes me as a "belief unhinger".  

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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EXC wrote: jread wrote:

EXC wrote:
jread wrote:

Current belief: The Christian God exists.

What would it take to get me to change that belief?

I don't believe that you really believe. You just pick and choose whatever parts of the bible you like and are not to offensive, then lie and say you believe this but not other parts.

The bible says believers can drink deadly poison and pick up deadly snake and not be harmed. It says you can move mountains with just faith. But you never have and will never do this cause your belief is phony.

If we hooked you up to a lie detector it would indicate your belief is phony. You'll never do a scientific study to prove god intervenes for prayer and tithing.

Face it you are a phony! You are not fooling many people. Just be honest with yourself and admit in your heart of hearts you are really an atheist or agnostic.

What it would take for me to believe in a Christian god is for people like you to prove you really believe and take these challenges.

 

Ha Indeed. I don't believe the parts of the Bible that seem superfluous. For example, the wearing two types of cloth is wrong part.

All in all, I don't know how to answer if asked how I justify this behavior. I am the type of believer that most atheists dislike the most. I am not a fundamentalist; instead, I am cherry picker moderate Christian. This definitely rubs some people the wrong way. I understand your challenges that I don't really believe. I agree with you somewhat. I don't believe in 100% of the Bible. But, I do have faith in the most important aspects of my belief system. The Bible is a central part, however I also integrate that personal experience business. But I know you don't consider that evidence, that is fine. I am just attempting to show you, that I understand where you are coming from, and yet, I don't have a "HURAH!!!" come back to your challenges.

 

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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   ??? the cosmic Alien

   ??? the cosmic Alien thing ?

Does anyone really think we are the only ones that ask this question in this part of the grander cosmos, so  un seen by me and you ???

consciousness ?

size ? WHY ARE UFO'S ,  human size ?

Silly human sizes , silly human math ....

at least it's a start , MATH !

then buddha said ,  alot of simple cool things .... buddha loves science ....

AWAKE !  


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Hmm..

Hmm..

I think my beliefs would change if for one day: no one was murdered, no one starved to death, no individual was raped, and no death due to international conflict or civil war.


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How many people do you

How many people do you suppose we could feed if we traded in all the money spent to create mega churches on ways to improve food supply in bad areas?


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My 'litmus test' for

My 'litmus test' for christianity has been meeting an individual who exemplifies Galatians 5:22-23. In other words, meeting a 'true' christian.

That would give credence to the religion, but not the object of worship.

Other than that, the deity him-/her-/it- self would have to make an appearance in front of me. Certain deities would have to answer some criminal charges/accusations of course.

 

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  hey RhadTheGizmo , what

  hey RhadTheGizmo , what god or gods are you studying ? .... and wish to communicate ?

This atheist is looking for god. What ya got ? The details please .....

 

 


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phooney wrote: How about

phooney wrote:

How about in 1935 the moon briefly broke from its tidal lock and spun around to show us the dark side, where a message has been written for us.

Why 1935? 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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jread wrote: I've

jread wrote:

I've often mused over this question: What would have to occur for you to change your beliefs?

First... I'd have to have beliefs. I don't. I just don't know. So, I suppose 'knowing' would have to occur.

And then I'd have to either not know again, or know something different.

So I suppose.... a case of beer and a Jehovah's Witness cute enough for me to let her prattle at me while I'm drunk. But that'd really only change my beliefs regarding whether or not I can get a fundie chick to suck me off while drunk. Right now, I'm pretty sure I can't.

Mostly because it hinges on me being drunk, not her. I'm not wasting my booze on her! 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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  Yeah, what's with them

  Yeah, what's with them girls drinking my beer, while most all they do is just tease ? 

I Did get a handful tho Smile

Hey,  -  wait,  - think this thru,

"Calling all girls"  I have BEERTongue out

, beer girls do it good too !    


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Quote:

Quote:
How many people do you suppose we could feed if we traded in all the money spent to create mega churches on ways to improve food supply in bad areas?

A lot.

Although, probably less then all those guns, bullets, and tanks prancing around the world.

Quote:
hey RhadTheGizmo , what god or gods are you studying ? .... and wish to communicate ?

This atheist is looking for god. What ya got ? The details please .....

What do you mean the atheist is looking for God?

As for the God I'm trying to communicate.. merely the Christian one. I figure one thing that is pretty fundamental to the theology of the Christian Bible is that there is a state humanity cannot reach on its own (I'm not stating what that state is and that whatever this state might be, it would be better.. (don't assume I mean heaven or anything-- I'm leaving it ambiguous on purpose).

In any case, if it occurred to me that "man was doing perfectly on its own"-- well then, that would seem to undercut the basic principle of the Christian Bible.. therefore, my belief in its theology would change.

At the moment.. I don't think humanity is doing even particularly well.

Edit: I realize of course that my explanation was not particularly specific.. I just said Christian God.  Although, in all honesty, I'm sure that more than a few denominations would not consider me Christian or might even get upset if I professed some of my views to them.  I even part ways with my denomination, I suppose, which is SDA.  Still.. I consider myself Christian.  So.. take that with a grain of salt.

Faith, as far as I can tell, doesn't require me to adhere to any particular dogma of any particular religion. The fundamentals of what makes a "christian faith" is pretty open as well...


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jread wrote:

jread wrote:

I've often mused over this question: What would have to occur for you to change your beliefs?

I consider beliiefs to be a dynamic property of the psychological makeup, mine are subject to flex and change most of the time. What you believe to be true affects your actions via your neurology somewhat automatically. For example people who can't swim don't just not swim when they hit water. Generally speaking, if the person actively believes while in the situation that they cannot swim, they'll freeze with panic, hyperventilate and flail; in part, at least, fulifilling that belief by reacting to the belief (as knowledge) in a physical way; you can't very well swim when your muscles are locked and you're having breathing difficulties.

Knowing beliefs can affect a person this strongly is valuable, I think, and for that reason I am less invested in my beliefs than I once was. Changing what you believe can, in a subtle, but very real way, change what you're capable of doing, being, or getting out of life. So ultimately, it doesn't take much for me to change my beliefs, just the hint that I might experience a better, more capable or edifying frame of mind is enough to make me rethink what I am taking as truth.

 

Quote:

For example I'll go first, and I will give my answer to the question.

 

Current belief: The Christian God exists.

What would it take to get me to change that belief?

My theistic beliefs are dynamic too, my current belief : That God is all we perceive as the universe and beyond what we consciously percieve an entity whose intelligence our subconscious and unconscious intelligence is a part, or something like that.

What would it take to get me to abandon this belief? Either a better idea of what the human condition entails, one with more promise than this one has, or for the unconscious, subconscious mind to be understood and proven to not have awareness of information which is never made conscious, that is, if someone can prove to me that the our conscious mental data is not a filtered version of the raw data of our experience then I would have to concede that there isn't possibility of more potent sentience than the known intellect which we consider to be our own existing within the physical structure of the universe.

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stuntgibbon wrote: How many

stuntgibbon wrote:
How many people do you suppose we could feed if we traded in all the money spent to create mega churches on ways to improve food supply in bad areas?

Mebbe if we did the same with golf courses and shopping malls, luxury condos and plasma TV's I would begin to reconsider my beliefs.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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jread wrote:EXC

jread wrote:

 I am not a fundamentalist; instead, I am cherry picker moderate Christian. This definitely rubs some people the wrong way. I understand your challenges that I don't really believe. I agree with you somewhat. I don't believe in 100% of the Bible. But, I do have faith in the most important aspects of my belief system.

 

So you want us to convert to your belief system and just cherry pick from whatever we don't find too offensive or crazy? Should we cherry pick from other ancient myths stories as well? What is the criteria we should use? Just how it makes us feel?

How does your faith system work? You have 100% certainty about some things and 0% certainty about others? What is the criteria you use to decide these things? Can we use science at all to detemine what to believe?

  Why don't you scientifically prove to us that your prayers work? If this were true this would be the greatest discovery in history, you'd win the Nobel prize for demonstrating a supernatural god intervenes in the physical world.

 

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Eloise wrote: I consider

Eloise wrote:

I consider beliiefs to be a dynamic property of the psychological makeup, mine are subject to flex and change most of the time.My theistic beliefs are dynamic too, my current belief : That God is all we perceive as the universe and beyond what we consciously percieve an entity whose intelligence our subconscious and unconscious intelligence is a part, or something like that.

 

 

But you don't have strong evidence for believing this claim. Right? It's just kind of a feeling your have or a leftover thinking process from being indoctrinated with religion as a child. Why not just call this a theory or a feeling? Then use the scientific method to test these theories and see if there is strong evidence.

If there is truth out there to be found, you may miss it because you see everything through the prism of your current belief system. Why not from time to time reevaluate everything you believe and ask if there is strong evidence to continue this belief?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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BMcD wrote: phooney

BMcD wrote:
phooney wrote:

How about in 1935 the moon briefly broke from its tidal lock and spun around to show us the dark side, where a message has been written for us.

Why 1935? 

 Well, I wanted it to be from before we'd actually BEEN to the moon, and I thought 1935 might have been a good time for God to warn us to not do the whole world war 2 thing.

 Although, I didn't explain that at all, sorry.


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totus_tuus

totus_tuus wrote:

stuntgibbon wrote:
How many people do you suppose we could feed if we traded in all the money spent to create mega churches on ways to improve food supply in bad areas?

Mebbe if we did the same with golf courses and shopping malls, luxury condos and plasma TV's I would begin to reconsider my beliefs.

Nothing says you have to wait for the masses to do it. Why be a lemming? Give away all that you have and follow whoever it is you follow. 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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I find that my beliefs are

I find that my beliefs are quite malleable. On any given morning, I might find myself believing any number of strange and wonderful things.


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qbg wrote: but would would

qbg wrote:
but would would it be appropriate to call him/her "god"?

if there were the slim chance that a God were existant.. we would not refer to God as either he nor she as God would be of no gender as a non entity. 

If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..


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EXC wrote:

EXC wrote:
Eloise wrote:

I consider beliiefs to be a dynamic property of the psychological makeup, mine are subject to flex and change most of the time.My theistic beliefs are dynamic too, my current belief : That God is all we perceive as the universe and beyond what we consciously percieve an entity whose intelligence our subconscious and unconscious intelligence is a part, or something like that.

 

 

But you don't have strong evidence for believing this claim. Right?

Judge for yourself, this belief is based on evidence to hand that:

a: there does exist an informational and therefore knowable unity to the material universe we percieve.

b. there does exist large amounts of verifiable data that indicate a larger context of universal reality is causally linked to the perceived material universe

c. these evidences have significant correlation with the concepts of spirit and God predicted by theological authors thousands of years ago.

 

Quote:

It's just kind of a feeling your have or a leftover thinking process from being indoctrinated with religion as a child. Why not just call this a theory or a feeling?

I guess I could call it a theory, but in this forum to claim it as a theory of science would incite riots. LOL

I call it a theistic belief because that's a simpler and more appropriate context to put it in on this forum, and it essentially is a theistic belief, it is an interpretative understanding of the doctrine of theology which I am able to perceive as true.

Quote:

If there is truth out there to be found, you may miss it because you see everything through the prism of your current belief system. Why not from time to time reevaluate everything you believe and ask if there is strong evidence to continue this belief?

Well, you see, that was the point of my post, reevaluating my belief system is par for the course for me. Beliefs can be crippling if you allow them to exist on their own terms. You have to remember that you formed them to begin with and that you did so with beliefs, and therefore other possibly dubious limits on that belief, already in place and so on, so forth. Beliefs are, by definition, man-made and fallible, wether you're theist or atheist the practical consequence of this is that rigid beliefs are a waste of energy. Like building your own intellectual and psychological prison to live in brick by brick.

So I totally advocate that we should reevaluate our whole belief system from time to time, if you think about it carefully there is pretty much a guarantee of missing something by holding steadfast to a negative or limiting idea in life.

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jread wrote:

jread wrote:

I've often mused over this question: What would have to occur for you to change your beliefs?

For example I'll go first, and I will give my answer to the question.

 

Current belief: The Christian God exists.

What would it take to get me to change that belief?

The following are what immediately comes to mind:

1. Successful human cloning. By "successful" I mean essentially that a human clone would be indistinguishable in all aspects (physical, mental, emotional, psychological, etc...) next to a naturally bred human being.

 

Cloning not only wouldn't disprove the existence of your god concept, it also has nothing to do with creating identical mental, emotional and psychological states. Cloning is strictly a genetic pursuit. If you acknowledge that the environment plays a significant and singularly distinct role in shaping the social behaviour of every individual, then producing this mythical set of twins would be totally impossible. On top of that it still wouldn't suggest that the clone isn't a fully seperate and autonomous identity. Therefore you would still be free to believe your god concept imbues both clones and their originals with a soul.

 

jread wrote:
2. Undeniable evidence that aliens exists. By "undeniable" I would have to qualify this as me either touching one and attempting to communicate with it, and/or the entire world concurring that aliens exist i.e. they invade our planet or something at that level.

 

Your god concept could have created life on other planets. There's nothing in the Bible which prohibits it. Also, you would likely be compelled by religious leaders to believe that the aliens were in fact demons who were here as the final attempt by Satan to lead humankind away from god once and for all. Such an event would fit nicely into tribulation theology.

 

This is the wrong question. You should be asking why anyone should believe in undetectable intelligent entities who influence the outcome of human events and demand our reverence in the first place, because when you start with the premise that such a being does in fact exist, there is no empirical criterion that could possibly relate to the claim. If logic doesn't apply to your god concept, how could tangible events?


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well, I have been thinking

well, I have been thinking about the best way to get the Alien thing put aside.

Our universe is as far as we know infinite simple mathematics would even show to believe we are the only life is silly as we can never examine that which is infinite. we have reason to believe that we have found planets capable of supporting life, in fact it becomes more and more clear that Mars may have been at onetime a living planet.

History has shown that on average a species will only "hang around about 4 million years before ...

A. extinction

B. Evolves into another species, which seems to be more apparent before our time.( for example we are no-longer Homo-Sapien but rather Homo-sapien-sapien. this is due changes in size of the Brain, skeletal Adaptations Etc.) 

Homo-sapien as a species themselfhasnt been around that long at all... the first humans emerged 2 million years ago although the were really nothing like us today.  so if we go by that scale of 4million year cycles and we have only gotten this far in our 2million year cycle of evolution, I find it doubtful that in a species existance they are going to master all this sort of ultra powered technology.

 

I am not saying it is not possible but unlikely. and who is to say that another civilization would even care to see a bunch of Bipedal idiots that kill eachother for imaginary friends anyways. and who is to say another evolutionary process that might be far ahead of ourshas the urge for high-technology.

my last point would be maybe such an evolutionary chain is not as up to date as ours or runs slower than ours or just plain old evolved with different attributes and values. 

If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..