The Saints Prove God [Trollville]

evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
The Saints Prove God [Trollville]

Hi, I am a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have a few comments. God does exist. Atheism is the result of sin. Sin is disobedience to God's commandments. The more one sins, the darker the mind becomes. Sin, according to the teachings of the God-illumined saints and father's of the Church, darkens the mind and expells the grace of God from the mind. That is why sin is so dangerous. The pure in heart see God. God does not dwell in the minds of the proud, or the hearts of the wicked. A person can have all the knowledge in the world, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth because of their pride. A person cannot believe in God unless God enlightens their mind. Otherwise, they dwell in darkness. God will not enlighten the mind if a person will not humble themself and admit they are not the center of the universe. Atheism is a passion (sickness of the soul) that is produced by love of self/ego. The love of self is the root cause of all the passions (spiritual diseases) of the soul. Such passions include: pride, anger, lying, lust, envy, jealousy, doubt, atheism, resentment, gluttany, love of self, etc. Just because God does not exist to atheists, does not mean He does not exist in reality or to other people. All of the saints experienced God. The saints purified their hearts and mind and perceived the truth of God and reality. Most, if not all, atheists are ignorant of God's working and manifestation in the saints of both East and West. Atheists suffer from the mentality that history bagan when they were born. They forget, or ignore the fact that there have been many millions of people and thousands of years of history of people experiencing God and the supernatural, and 2,000 years of miraculous working saints. Atheists know nothing of this. The lives and experiences of the saints prove God exists. Modern man is too materialistic, worldly and self-centered (we think we are the center of the universe) to take his eyes off himself. When man takes his eyes off himself, he will attract the grace of God and the delusion of atheism will begin to lose its grip on his mind. Atheism is not an intellectual debate, it is a spiritual one. Atheism is a spiritual disease produced by self love. If the heart is darkened, the thoughts will be darkened. The more the heart becomes purified, the clearer the thoughts become.

LIVES OF SAINTShttp://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/lives.htmhttp://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ibmgs/lives.htmlBEACONS OF SANCTITYhttp://www.sainthermanpress.com/catalog/chapter_five/index.htmDESERT FATHERShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/Sayings_of_the_Desert_Fathers#Abba_TheodoreSERBIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_Serbian_SaintsROMANIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_Romanian_SaintsBULGARIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/Bulgarian_saintsRUSSIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/Category:Russian_SaintsGREEK SAINTShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_saintsBYZANTINE SAINTShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Byzantine_saintsEGYPTIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/Category:Egyptian_SaintsSPIRITUAL COUNSELShttp://www.sainthermanpress.com/catalog/chapter_four/index.htm

 


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Ummm....

Ummm.... Hahahahahahahahaha

Prove that miracles actually occurred.


mindspread
mindspread's picture
Posts: 360
Joined: 2007-02-18
User is offlineOffline
Welcome back.   Why don't

Welcome back.

 

Why don't you go over to your post from 19 weeks ago and answer some of the questions there.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/5649

 

 Or are you just doing another hit and run? 

 

Come on, stand up for your beliefs. 


pariahjane
pariahjane's picture
Posts: 1595
Joined: 2006-05-06
User is offlineOffline
Oh dear, is it another hit

Oh dear, is it another hit and run?  I'll still give this person the benefit of the doubt and respond.

In short, I'm afraid you know nothing of atheism.  There are two sides to every story; your side is completely entrenched in all the lore and dogma of your religion.  It's a shame, really.

As an atheist, I'm quite aware that there is a deep history that occured before my existence.  It goes back millions of years.  So, I guess that point is moot, isn't it?

I'd address the rest of your post, but I do have a feeling that you won't be back.

If god takes life he's an indian giver


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
The saints prove that there

The saints prove that there were some people who followed the rules well enough and were well liked that they made it in the club.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
 God does not give proof

 God does not give proof to people who don't deserve it. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him, as the book of Hebrews states. Every human being has the light of Divine truth and knowledge of God's existance within their heart. But they surpress that knowledge as Romans 1 and 2 state. God wants us to respond to that knowledge. He wants us to act upon the knowledge we do have, and more knowledge will be given. The saints started with faith and forced themselves to be obedient. They were dead to the world, the flesh and the devil. By dying to self, more grace from God is given. Atheists are stuck in a horizontal mode of thought and viscious cycle of blind and dark "rationalism."Mankind is asleep, hypnotized and in prison and doesn't even know it. Christ penetrated the barrier between God and man to show us the way out. A person cannot even begin to think vertically untill they take their eyes off themself. All the evil and problems of the world were caused because mankind took his eyes off God and placed them on himself. We lost "God consciousness" so to speak. Christ came to restore the original "God consciousness" to mankind. Love for others and the exercise of virtue will attract God's grace and illumine the mind. When we took our eyes off God and put them on ourselves as Adam and Eve did, we lost our connection. We are the children of those disobedience parents and inherited their disobedient nature. It is only through forcing ourselves in all good, and overcoming ourself and the world that we become truly awakened.

There is a myriad of dark and inhuman spirits working on the circumferance of this planet who are totally devoted to keep us in this bondage and darkness. They do this through the senses. They make the world appear very attractive to us so we will not think of God. They want to destroy us for two reasons: 1. Because we are God's creation. They hate God and want to destroy His work. 2. They are jealous of what we can become and our spiritual potential. We are made in God's image.. We have three enemies that obstruct our ascent to God.

1. The world.

2. The flesh

3. The devil.

These three things must be resisted to the point of death. Saint Mary of Egypt was a prostitute her whole life. She retired to the desert and resisted her sinful incilnations to the point of exhaustion. She overcame the three enemies. The world, the flesh (herself) and the devil. At the end of her life she made the sign of the cross over a lake, walked on the water and received Holy Communion. This potential is available to all of us if we will simply die to self and overcome the world.


The Patrician
The Patrician's picture
Posts: 474
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
I could write a long and

I could write a long and detailed response but instead I'll just use this as it's the same thing in the end:

 Circular argument LOL!

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
 I am not qualified to

 I am not qualified to speak on spiritual matters. I just wanted to give an introduction to another mode of life that is available to us. God exists, and He is more radiant and beautiful then a millions suns combined. Indeed, if one saw God, and then saw a millions sons combined, the latter would look dark and ugly in comparison to the Divine glory and beauty of God.


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Prove God exists. There is

Prove God exists. There is no more reason to believe God exists than to believe a booga booga monster exists. Believing in things without evidence is irrational.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


The Patrician
The Patrician's picture
Posts: 474
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: Indeed, if

evfimy wrote:
Indeed, if one saw God, and then saw a millions sons combined, the latter would look dark and ugly in comparison to the Divine glory and beauty of God.

 

Absolutely.  Think of all those wangs hanging about. 

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


Roisin Dubh
Roisin Dubh's picture
Posts: 428
Joined: 2007-02-11
User is offlineOffline
And this thread isn't in

And this thread isn't in Trollville because?...............


BGH
BGH's picture
Posts: 2772
Joined: 2006-09-28
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: God does

evfimy wrote:

God does not give proof to people who don't deserve it. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him, as the book of Hebrews states. Every human being has the light of Divine truth and knowledge of God's existance within their heart.

This was a complete 360, let's see if I have this straight.

God gives proof to those who deserve it, I don't deserve it that is why I have never had proof, but everyone has the knowledge in their heart, which should be proof enough, but I don't have faith so he is not pleased, so I can't have proof even though knowledge in my heart should be proof enough, but then I would have faith, then he would give me proof which I wouldn't need because I have faith and he would be pleased.......

I just did more spins in reasoning than a Russian figure skater.... ugh, I feel sick. 


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
 P.S. Saint Mary of Egypy

 P.S. Saint Mary of Egypy lived in the 4th century if my memory is correct. She is just one of the many, many examples of those righteous ones who overcame human nature.

 

The atheist appeal to what they think is logic, is absurd and ridiculous inlight of everything I have said above. The "wisdom" of the world is foolishness to God and the saints.


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote:

evfimy wrote:

The atheist appeal to what they think is logic, is absurd and ridiculous inlight of everything I have said above. The "wisdom" of the world is foolishness to God and the saints.

OK then. So give us your wisdom against our foolishness. Bring it. Prove to us that without a doubt, God exists.

And yes, the Bible says that those who don't believe in God are fools, but so does the Koran. Why don't you follow that too?

And then...

Quote:
THE SAINTS PROVE GOD

Well then, don't the Muslims prove Allah? Eye-wink 

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
BGH wrote: This was a

BGH wrote:

This was a complete 360, let's see if I have this straight.

God gives proof to those who deserve it, I don't deserve it that is why I have never had proof, but everyone has the knowledge in their heart, which should be proof enough, but I don't have faith so he is not pleased, so I can't have proof even though knowledge in my heart should be proof enough, but then I would have faith, then he would give me proof which I wouldn't need because I have faith and he would be pleased.......

I just did more spins in reasoning than a Russian figure skater.... ugh, I feel sick. 

 

You have it all wrong. The human heart has sufficient knowledge of God. But external "proof" is not given. God organized it this way. He wants us to respond to and honor the knowledge we do have, then more knowledge and illumination will ne given.

 

You can argue and "rationalize" all you want. The lives and experiences of the saints reduce your worldly "wisdom" to complete absurdity. There is even a prayer to the Mother of God (the Virgin Mary) which says "Rejoice, thou who showest philosophers to be fools."

 

Peace. And forgive me a sinner. Thank you.


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
 Jedi, even if there were

 Jedi, even if there were Muslim saints (which there isn't), it certainl wouldn't help the case for atheism. Muslims may have experienced the supernatural, but they were not saints according to the strict and Christian definition of the word.


silentseba
silentseba's picture
Posts: 131
Joined: 2007-07-19
User is offlineOffline
  evfimy wrote: A person

 

evfimy wrote:
A person cannot believe in God unless God enlightens their mind.

So it is not may fault I don't believe in god then. It is his fault for not enlightening my mind. Besides... this is proof that he does not exist. If a non believer cannot see god, it is because he doesn't exist. If you need to be a believer to see god, it just means that you are creating it inside your head. 


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
Quote: There is even a

Quote:

There is even a prayer to the Mother of God (the Virgin Mary) which says "Rejoice, thou who showest philosophers to be fools."

First of all, who is doing that today?

Secondly, where in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary?  Anywhere?  I've read it through a few times, and don't recall this ever even being mentioned.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


djneibarger
Superfan
djneibarger's picture
Posts: 564
Joined: 2007-04-13
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: God does

evfimy wrote:

God does exist.

nope, but feel free to provide an actual argument for it, if you have any. 

evfimy wrote:

Atheism is the result of sin.

wrong again. that "sin" thing only applies to gullible suckers who believe in it, and that would be you. i live in the real world where we work on the principles of right/wrong, empathy and compassion. you should visit sometime.

 

evfimy wrote:

The pure in heart see God.

and the clear of mind see that god is hogwash.

evfimy wrote:

Atheism is a passion (sickness of the soul) that is produced by love of self/ego.

 

actually, for me, it's more of a love of the truth. and a loathing of fear monger mythologies based on primitive misconceptions of nature and a need to impose a universal morality. 

evfimy wrote:

The love of self is the root cause of all the passions (spiritual diseases) of the soul. Such passions include: pride, anger, lying, lust, envy, jealousy, doubt, atheism, resentment, gluttany, love of self, etc.

 

you take a lot of pride in your biblical knowledge and your assumed knowledge of atheists. you seem kind of angry about the mere prescense of atheists in the world, today. you're fabricating most, if not all, of your generalizations about atheists, which amounts to lying. you seem envious and jealous of our confidence and independence. the mere fact that you're here indicates doubt, otherwise you would be content to leave us be and carry on with your life. you resent our choice to not believe in your silly invisible man in the sky. so in conclusion, you're most definitely spiritually diseased.

evfimy wrote:

Most, if not all, atheists are ignorant of God's working and manifestation in the saints of both East and West. Atheists suffer from the mentality that history bagan when they were born. They forget, or ignore the fact that there have been many millions of people and thousands of years of history of people experiencing God and the supernatural, and 2,000 years of miraculous working saints. Atheists know nothing of this.

 

actually, most atheists have a far greater knowledge of the bible and christianity than the majority of self professed christians. i personally have read the bible cover to cover, been baptized and confirmed and done extensive readings on religions in europe and the middle east. so bite my shiny metal ass. 

evfimy wrote:

Atheism is a spiritual disease produced by self love.

 

speaking for myself, spirituality is useless. that's YOUR hangup, not mine. you really should stick to topics you have an actual understanding of, like guilt, fear, self loathing and damnation, because you really don't know crap about atheism.

 

evfimy wrote:

If the heart is darkened, the thoughts will be darkened. The more the heart becomes purified, the clearer the thoughts become.

i think a trip down reality lane would do far more to clear your thoughts than anything i read in your post. 

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


Max Wilder
atheist
Max Wilder's picture
Posts: 83
Joined: 2007-06-19
User is offlineOffline
Sorry, but your argument

Sorry, but your argument supports atheism more than Christianity.

Think about it. God is love, and He wants everybody to be close to Him, right?

So why does He abandon those who need Him the most?

If God truly existed, He would look at the people who were devout and say, "Ok, these people are on the right track, I don't have to worry about them. But those others who are drifting from Me really need to feel My presence, so they will know to come back to Me."

But it is just as you say. Only those who blindly accept what they are told feel "God's presence". What a testament to the power of the human mind to delude itself! The more I questioned Christianity and the Bible, the more I realized that your God and Christ are all just myths, like every other morality tale and science substitute. And your Saints are just regular people who got big stories built up around them.

You believe it all because you want the opiate-like high of wrapping that delusion around yourself like a big warm blanket. You don't think. You don't question. You don't reason. You aren't mature enough to face the cold harsh reality of the world as it truly is.

When you step back and see the big picture, you should be seeing God, but what you really see is all the foolish mortals believing in lies and wasting their precious lives.

-----
I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously.
- Douglas Adams, Salmon of Doubt


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
[Prophecy of St. Nilus the

[Prophecy of St. Nilus the Myrrh-streamer of Mt. Athos...1651]

After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable...At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign...Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society...The Churches of God will be deprived of God-fearing and pious pastors, and woe to the Christians remaining in the world at that time; they will completely lose their faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all.

 

P.S. The phrase "myrh-streamer" means that after he died, his body remained incorrupt (it never decomposed), and a miraculous myrh flowed from his body and healed people of illnesses. This phenomenon is not uncommon among the Eastern saints.


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
Max Wilder wrote: Sorry,

Max Wilder wrote:

Sorry, but your argument supports atheism more than Christianity.

Think about it. God is love, and He wants everybody to be close to Him, right?

So why does He abandon those who need Him the most?

If God truly existed, He would look at the people who were devout and say, "Ok, these people are on the right track, I don't have to worry about them. But those others who are drifting from Me really need to feel My presence, so they will know to come back to Me."

But it is just as you say. Only those who blindly accept what they are told feel "God's presence". What a testament to the power of the human mind to delude itself! The more I questioned Christianity and the Bible, the more I realized that your God and Christ are all just myths, like every other morality tale and science substitute. And your Saints are just regular people who got big stories built up around them.

You believe it all because you want the opiate-like high of wrapping that delusion around yourself like a big warm blanket. You don't think. You don't question. You don't reason. You aren't mature enough to face the cold harsh reality of the world as it truly is.

When you step back and see the big picture, you should be seeing God, but what you really see is all the foolish mortals believing in lies and wasting their precious lives.

 

Hi Max, God never abandoned anyone. We abandoned Him. The very nature of the Gospel is that God HAS reached out to lost humanity. Hence, He became incarnate. "The Son of Man came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" -- Jesus. "They that are whole need not a physician, but they that are sick" --Jesus. "The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" --Jesus.

 

We were ALL lost and on our way to eternal damnation. Christ came to save us ALL. THAT is the very claim and nature of the Gospel. WE DON'T HAVE TO GO TO HELL! He came to save us.

 

God does not send people to Hell. We send ourselves by persistenly refusing and resisting His call to Himself. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not commited by saying a few stupid words: "I deny the Holy Spirit." It is commited by a life long rejection of the truth as personified and manifested in the God-Man --Jesus Christ, and His offer of eternal life.

 

As for your abandoning Christ, it doesn't surprise me. The Scriptures said this would happen in the last days. We are in the Laodician age of hypocracy, self-love and shallow Christians. "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that endures to the end will be saved" --Jesus.


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote:[Prophecy of

[edit: double post]


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: [Prophecy of

evfimy wrote:

[Prophecy of St. Nilus the Myrrh-streamer of Mt. Athos...1651]

After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable...At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign...Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society...The Churches of God will be deprived of God-fearing and pious pastors, and woe to the Christians remaining in the world at that time; they will completely lose their faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all.

 

P.S. The phrase "myrh-streamer" means that after he died, his body remained incorrupt (it never decomposed), and a miraculous myrh flowed from his body and healed people of illnesses. This phenomenon is not uncommon among the Eastern saints.

Nice. I have only heard of dead bodies streaming excrement.  Would that make that person a "crap-streamer"?   If that's the case, then I can think of a lost of theists who are saints before they die. 

Okay, I have gotten that humor/slap out of the way.  Here's what I don't get about Eastern Orthodox Christians, there is a very clear commandment from God about graven images and false idols.  However, if you walk into an Orthodox church, there are icons everywhere.  Seems a little contradictory to me. 

 

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
 The commandment against

 The commandment against idol worship reffered to actually worshipping the gods who were allegedly contained in the idols. The Orthodox Church does not worship idols; that is, false gods. We venerate (honor) the saints. The icon is an earthly image that depicts a heavenly reality. The veneration given to the saint ascends to the proto-type. Saint John of Damascus wrote extensively on this subject, and the veneration of icons was approved by the Seventh Ecumenical Council of the Church in 787 AD. The ecumenical councils are guided by the Holy Spirit and are infallible. The council in Jerusalem --Acts 15 -- shows that the Holy Spirit was behind that council. Keep in mind, there is a difference between worship and veneration. If I see a picture of my mother and kiss it, I am venerating (honoring her), not worshipping her.


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote:  The

evfimy wrote:
 The commandment against idol worship reffered to actually worshipping the gods who were allegedly contained in the idols. The Orthodox Church does not worship idols; that is, false gods. We venerate (honor) the saints. The icon is an earthly image that depicts a heavenly reality. The veneration given to the saint ascends to the proto-type. Saint John of Damascus wrote extensively on this subject, and the veneration of icons was approved by the Seventh Ecumenical Council of the Church in 787 AD. The ecumenical councils are guided by the Holy Spirit and are infallible. The council in Jerusalem --Acts 15 -- shows that the Holy Spirit was behind that council. Keep in mind, there is a difference between worship and veneration. If I see a picture of my mother and kiss it, I am venerating (honoring her), not worshipping her.

*blink blink blink*

First, I forgot about the infallibility thing.  Did you know that the Catholic Pope is also infallible when he speaks ex cathedra.  When he did so recently, he said only Catholics are correct.  Your guys are also infallible though.  Hmmmm.  The question is:  Great hats with crazy beards or great hats buy clean shaven? 

Anyway, you distinguish between veneration and worship.  If venerating is okay, then perhaps people should just venerate statues of golden calves.

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
I like Sts. Cyril and

I like Sts. Cyril and Methodius of Thessaloniki.  They made up a written language for the Russians.  Anyone who can develop such a screwed up phonetic system deserves to steal February 14 from St. Valentine.

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: [Prophecy of

evfimy wrote:

[Prophecy of St. Nilus the Myrrh-streamer of Mt. Athos...1651]

After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable...At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign...Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society...The Churches of God will be deprived of God-fearing and pious pastors, and woe to the Christians remaining in the world at that time; they will completely lose their faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all.

 

P.S. The phrase "myrh-streamer" means that after he died, his body remained incorrupt (it never decomposed), and a miraculous myrh flowed from his body and healed people of illnesses. This phenomenon is not uncommon among the Eastern saints.

Hmm...first of all, I can still recognize people.  From what I see today, most people are still modest.  Most pastors I know are god-fearing.  Homosexuality and murder don't rule society.  They have always been present, obviously, as seen by the fact that they are mentioned in Leviticus, so nothing new there.  A few people who claimed they were "Christians" have come here and lost their faith, but the majority of Christians are, well, still Christians.  Now, as to this guy's body remaining incorrupted (as in it didn't rot or decompose), where the hell is it today?  In some museum?  Somehow I doubt that out of his body flowed myrh.  Any evidence?

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Evfimy, you make many

Evfimy, you make many assertions, yet provide no proof.  Nope, your bible and saints are not proof.  Wander around the forums for a bit and you'll see that the bible is just a collection of stories written by and selected by people.  The saints stories , you must admit, are mostly pretty far-fetched.

Evfimy wrote:
A person cannot believe in God unless God enlightens their mind.

Then you follow up and say

Evfimy wrote:
God does not give proof to people who don't deserve it.

So if you can't believe unless you're enlightened - and you can't be enlightened unless you deserve it - and you don't deserve it unless you're already enlightened... well, you should get the point that's really circular logic.  Don't retreat into that tired, old argument of "knowing in your heart".  Nope, it doesn't hold water.

May I suggest that you not proselytize?  Quite honestly, preaching doesn't go far around here.

Perhaps you could offer an argument and back it up with something concrete so we could have a discussion and offer differing arguments.

 

 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote:   P.S. The

evfimy wrote:
 

P.S. The phrase "myrh-streamer" means that after he died, his body remained incorrupt (it never decomposed), and a miraculous myrh flowed from his body and healed people of illnesses. This phenomenon is not uncommon among the Eastern saints.

By the way, if this really happened, seems like it would have made the history books I had in high school.  If it really happened, there would be a stampede to the doors of your church.  Heck, the pope would probably be first in line.

If you assert this is still happening, surely it would make the 10 o'clock news - with video. 

And if it's not uncommon and true, where is the stack of perfectly preserved bodies that heals people and why haven't all illnesses been cured with it?

If you have a god that is loving and kind, et al, seems to me he would want everyone to be happy and healthy.  There's no doubt that if this pile of bodies healed people, there would be a whole lot of converts. 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
    It is interesting

    It is interesting that you believe in saints without ever questioning them, i mean why aren't these non corrupt, myrh streaming bodies ever been studied by scientists? I mean this is evidence right? And those miracles of the past, it is strange how they do things like walk on water (hey Chris Angel walks on water does that make him a saint?)

    You are quite willing to believe in things that cannot be proven at all. Would your church be willing to allow scientists to study these bodies? I highly doubt it. Would the church allow a body of scientists to look into the miraculous claims of healing with proper medical examinations? How do you go on proving the claims of previous saints of the past?

    Also ever notice many walk on water, heal people and so on, it seems that every culture has it, chinese have these myths (and they do call them myths) so do the japanese, Middle eastern, south and central americans, native americans, polynesians, various african tribes. Seems to be a pretty common occurance. Eh then again what do i know, i am just an atheist right? 


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
Hi evfimy Could you tell me

Hi evfimy

Could you tell me about St.Constantine


iranu
Posts: 59
Joined: 2007-07-27
User is offlineOffline
This guy is hopefully a

This guy is hopefully a troll.  It scares me that people can actually swallow this hook, line and sinker to the point of simply spouting it.  The language is an appeal to the emotions with a carrot and stick approach chucked in for good measure.

The problem is that people are indoctrinated and effectively brainwashed with this drivel.  Some are harmless but others really want to get the message out there.  I don't think any reasoning is gonna work with this guy.  2+2= whatever he wants it to be.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13823
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Typical fiat by naked

Typical fiat by naked assertion. I know that this will take all the fun out of our resident historian atheists and philosopy buffs, but I hear the hooves of my one trick poney galloping in.

For the original poster who is not familure with me my "one trick poney" is actually two simple questions, if you can answer, would convince me that your god exists. That is if you have a credible answer that backs up your claim, "My god did it". All you have to do is demonstrate the two following items.

1. Demonstrate the mechinisms of HOW(NOT WHO) but HOW God, disimboidied ghost, got a 9-14 year old girl pregnant.

2. Show me the peer reviewed medical study that makes surviving rigor mortis possible.

When you can accomplish those two things you can convince me.

That is my one trick poney. But so far, no Christian has ever been able to give me any answer besides the standard "all powerfull" "God can do what he wants".

Get back to me when you have accomplished those goals. Dont worry, I wont hold my breath. 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
 Susan, St. Nilus lived in

 Susan, St. Nilus lived in the 16th century if my memory is correct, and people did stampeed into the Church. You can't be serious in believing it would be on the Jewish controled news media. The media is only concerned with bashing Christianity, not supporting it.

 

 I refuse to be drawn into atheistic fights. By arguing with you, I'm going to your level and giving the impression that you are even capable of reason. Atheists need serious Orthodox psychotherapy. Atheism is a spiritual, not an intellectual problem.

 

Orthodox Psychotherapy

 

http://www.vic.com/~tscon/pelagia/htm/b02.en.orthodox_psychotherapy.00.htm

 

Forgive me a sinner. Thank you. I forgive you.


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
 My last thread was

 My last thread was addressed to all atheists. I feel so sorry for you.  Stop listening to the devil. He is a liar. Think for yourselves.

 

Forgive me. Thank you.


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
Quote: I refuse to be

Quote:

I refuse to be drawn into atheistic fights. By arguing with you, I'm going to your level and giving the impression that you are even capable of reason. Atheists need serious Orthodox psychotherapy. Atheism is a spiritual, not an intellectual problem.

Ok then.  If we are not "capable of reason", and you just won't argue with us because you're "so superior", let me argue you from a theistic (Christian) point of view, since I used to be one.  I see from your arguments that you are Catholic.  Answer me these things then:  why do Catholics worship Mary, since the Bible never says anything about this, and what is the point of these "saints"?  The Bible never says anything about them either.  I await your response, though mostly from the first question.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


evfimy
Theist
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-03-24
User is offlineOffline
 I am not Catholic. I'm

 I am not Catholic. I'm Orthodox. And we don't worship Mary. This is a common western misconception. We venerate (honor) her, even as you might venerate  a picture of your mother by kissing it.

 

Your leaving Christ does not surprise me. The Scripture's said this would happen in the last days. People like you only show the Scripture's to be accurate. But I think most, if not all people who forsake the truth, never really belonged to it in the first place. Most seeds falls on bad ground and are not able to grow.

 

Forgive me. Thank you.


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
So you kiss pictures of

So you kiss pictures of Mary?  Something in the back of my head screams "idol worship!"  So god chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?  Some loving god.  Answer me this:  If god made all of the people here at the RRS to go to hell, then will you truly be happy in heaven knowing that we are suffering in hell because god wanted us to be there?

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


mindspread
mindspread's picture
Posts: 360
Joined: 2007-02-18
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: blah blah

evfimy wrote:

blah blah blah ... You can't be serious in believing it would be on the Jewish controled news media. The media is only concerned with bashing Christianity, not supporting it. blah blah blah ...

 

I...I...I'm at...a loss...for...words.

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
mindspread wrote: evfimy

mindspread wrote:
evfimy wrote:

blah blah blah ... You can't be serious in believing it would be on the Jewish controled news media. The media is only concerned with bashing Christianity, not supporting it. blah blah blah ...

 

I...I...I'm at...a loss...for...words.

 

I caught that too. Anti-semitism is such a great way to convince people to come to your version of christianity. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


djneibarger
Superfan
djneibarger's picture
Posts: 564
Joined: 2007-04-13
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: My last

evfimy wrote:

My last thread was addressed to all atheists. I feel so sorry for you. Stop listening to the devil. He is a liar. Think for yourselves.

 

Forgive me. Thank you.

i feel sorry for you. stop listening to god. he's fictional. think for yourself.

you're not forgiven. grow up. you're welcome. 

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


Eight Foot Manchild
Eight Foot Manchild's picture
Posts: 144
Joined: 2007-05-12
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: Forgive me.

evfimy wrote:
Forgive me. Thank you.

Suck a frozen turd to a point and stab yourself with it.


JeremiahSmith
Posts: 361
Joined: 2006-11-25
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: My last

evfimy wrote:

My last thread was addressed to all atheists. I feel so sorry for you. Stop listening to the devil. He is a liar. Think for yourselves.

 

Forgive me. Thank you.

Are you sure the devil is a liar? He gave me a bunch of free CDs and that was pretty cool of him! Wait a minute... these are all copies of the "My Humps" single!

 

NOOO SATAN HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO MEEEEEE 

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
I for one was disappointed

I for one was disappointed that this topic was not in fact about the football team from New Orleans. Frown


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Why do you assume the worst

Why do you assume the worst about the Devil when nobody ever heard his side of the story?


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
I see this wound up in

I see this wound up in trollville! Laughing out loud


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: Susan, St.

evfimy wrote:

Susan, St. Nilus lived in the 16th century if my memory is correct, and people did stampeed into the Church.

You said

evfimy wrote:
This phenomenon is not uncommon among the Eastern saints.

So where are all these bodies that have healing myhr streaming out of them?  Why aren't people being healed right and left?

Trust me, if that were happening people would still be streaming into your church.  There would be stuff all over the internet with video on YouTube. The news would spread so fast that the six degrees of separation would quickly dwindle to one or two.

 

evfimy wrote:
You can't be serious in believing it would be on the Jewish controled news media. The media is only concerned with bashing Christianity, not supporting it.

You don't watch the news very much, do you?

Geez.  Can you possibly really believe that there's a huge Jewish conspiracy in the entire world's new media to crush xianity?

Are you into conspiracies everywhere or just a bigot? 

 

evfimy wrote:
I refuse to be drawn into atheistic fights.

So what are you doing here in the forums?  (Besides proselytizing, that is.)

 

evfimy wrote:
By arguing with you, I'm going to your level and giving the impression that you are even capable of reason.

 I think it's more the fact that you cannot make an assertion and then back it up with fact.  You don't want to argue (I prefer the word "discuss&quotEye-wink because can cannot refute the replies you've already been given.

evfimy wrote:
Orthodox Psychotherapy

Egad!  Personality Exorcisms!!!! 

 

Come on, evfimy.  You assert much yet don't prove a darned thing.

Don't you ever question or wonder "HHmmm.  How did that happen?" without answering yourself with "goddidit" and no reasoning behind it?  Don't you ever wonder if maybe there's an explanation besides "goddidit"? 

How can an intelligent human being just blindly accept stories so fantastic without wondering if maybe the story has been embellished?  Don't you ever wonder if some of those saints stories have become tall tales over the years?  

Just like people start believing urban legends, don't you ever think that some of your stories might have come about the same way?  (Think snopes.com) 

 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


D-cubed
Rational VIP!
D-cubed's picture
Posts: 715
Joined: 2007-01-04
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote: Atheists

evfimy wrote:

Atheists need serious Orthodox psychotherapy. Atheism is a spiritual, not an intellectual problem.

If it was real psychotherapy then it wouldn't need to be prefaced by the word "Orthodox".

Anyway, you need a dose of Chacarron. Chacarron disproves your silly notion of god. There's no way you can refute me.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2120659111755287021


Genesius
Posts: 10
Joined: 2007-08-27
User is offlineOffline
evfimy wrote:

evfimy wrote:

[Prophecy of St. Nilus the Myrrh-streamer of Mt. Athos...1651]

After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century,. . . yadda yadda

 

Evfimy, would you care to respond to the info on this "prophecy" from Orthodoxwiki? From http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prophecy_of_St._Nilus

Quote:

The Prophecy of St. Nilus is an apocryphal work of uncertain origin (thus often referred to as the Prophecy of Pseudo-Nilus) predicting the apocalypse to occur in the 19th or 20th century (depending on the version of the text). As there are serious problems with the text, it is clear that it was either not written by St. Nilus or that it has been altered in translation. With the advent of the Internet, the work has taken on the status of urban legend.

The Prophecy claims to be written by a saint named Nilus, variously the 4th century St. Nilus the Ascetic, the 17th century St. Nilus the Myrrhstreamer of Mount Athos, or someone from the 14th century.

Problems with the text

The most obvious problem with the text is one of dating. It claims to be regarding either the 19th or 20th centuries with varying levels of internal consistency in the actual text. Some, for instance, read "After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 19th century," which is contradictory, since starting with the year 1901, the 20th century began. Additionally, with several different versions circulating, especially with variances in this key opening phrase, it would seem that the text has been altered, so one cannot be sure about the period it supposedly is addressing.

The claim that the Prophecy is from the 4th century is also problematic, as in the 4th century it was not yet the practice of Christians to date from the birth of Christ, a practice introduced only in the 6th century by Dionysius Exiguus "the Short", a Roman monk . In the 4th century, dating was still calculated from the Creation, the founding of Rome, from the accession of the current emperor, or from the time of Diocletian according to the Indiction. Even after its introduction by Dionysius, it did not come into general use in the West until the 8th century.

Eastern Christians waited even longer to use the Nativity as a dating point. Most Orthodox Christians began the practice only after the fall of Constantinople while the Church of Russia introduced it only with the time of Tsar Peter the Great (16th/17th c.).

Even aside from these problems, a "21st century" version has yet to surface, meaning that the Antichrist supposedly appeared around 1950 and has yet to take over the world.

The ethic of the Prophecy has problems, as well. It focuses on external appearances much more than the more serious problems of immorality, which were just as much present (and arguably even moreso) in the various eras in which the text was allegedly written.

Further, no known source for this text has yet surfaced.

Wow, looks like your fellow Orthodox Church members don't buy this "prophecy", huh? Got any better reason why we should?

 

 


only a name (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
If God takes life he is an Indian giver.
If I gave you a dollar and then offered you diamond for it: would you take it?