The Saints Prove God [Trollville]
Offline Hi, I am a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have a few comments. God does exist. Atheism is the result of sin. Sin is disobedience to God's commandments. The more one sins, the darker the mind becomes. Sin, according to the teachings of the God-illumined saints and father's of the Church, darkens the mind and expells the grace of God from the mind. That is why sin is so dangerous. The pure in heart see God. God does not dwell in the minds of the proud, or the hearts of the wicked. A person can have all the knowledge in the world, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth because of their pride. A person cannot believe in God unless God enlightens their mind. Otherwise, they dwell in darkness. God will not enlighten the mind if a person will not humble themself and admit they are not the center of the universe. Atheism is a passion (sickness of the soul) that is produced by love of self/ego. The love of self is the root cause of all the passions (spiritual diseases) of the soul. Such passions include: pride, anger, lying, lust, envy, jealousy, doubt, atheism, resentment, gluttany, love of self, etc. Just because God does not exist to atheists, does not mean He does not exist in reality or to other people. All of the saints experienced God. The saints purified their hearts and mind and perceived the truth of God and reality. Most, if not all, atheists are ignorant of God's working and manifestation in the saints of both East and West. Atheists suffer from the mentality that history bagan when they were born. They forget, or ignore the fact that there have been many millions of people and thousands of years of history of people experiencing God and the supernatural, and 2,000 years of miraculous working saints. Atheists know nothing of this. The lives and experiences of the saints prove God exists. Modern man is too materialistic, worldly and self-centered (we think we are the center of the universe) to take his eyes off himself. When man takes his eyes off himself, he will attract the grace of God and the delusion of atheism will begin to lose its grip on his mind. Atheism is not an intellectual debate, it is a spiritual one. Atheism is a spiritual disease produced by self love. If the heart is darkened, the thoughts will be darkened. The more the heart becomes purified, the clearer the thoughts become.
LIVES OF SAINTShttp://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/lives.htmhttp://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ibmgs/lives.htmlBEACONS OF SANCTITYhttp://www.sainthermanpress.com/catalog/chapter_five/index.htmDESERT FATHERShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/Sayings_of_the_Desert_Fathers#Abba_TheodoreSERBIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_Serbian_SaintsROMANIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_Romanian_SaintsBULGARIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/Bulgarian_saintsRUSSIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/Category:Russian_SaintsGREEK SAINTShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_saintsBYZANTINE SAINTShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Byzantine_saintsEGYPTIAN SAINTShttp://orthodoxwiki.org/Category:Egyptian_SaintsSPIRITUAL COUNSELShttp://www.sainthermanpress.com/catalog/chapter_four/index.htm
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Ummm.... Hahahahahahahahaha
Prove that miracles actually occurred.
Welcome back.
Why don't you go over to your post from 19 weeks ago and answer some of the questions there.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/5649
Or are you just doing another hit and run?
Come on, stand up for your beliefs.
Oh dear, is it another hit and run? I'll still give this person the benefit of the doubt and respond.
In short, I'm afraid you know nothing of atheism. There are two sides to every story; your side is completely entrenched in all the lore and dogma of your religion. It's a shame, really.
As an atheist, I'm quite aware that there is a deep history that occured before my existence. It goes back millions of years. So, I guess that point is moot, isn't it?
I'd address the rest of your post, but I do have a feeling that you won't be back.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
The saints prove that there were some people who followed the rules well enough and were well liked that they made it in the club.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
God does not give proof to people who don't deserve it. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him, as the book of Hebrews states. Every human being has the light of Divine truth and knowledge of God's existance within their heart. But they surpress that knowledge as Romans 1 and 2 state. God wants us to respond to that knowledge. He wants us to act upon the knowledge we do have, and more knowledge will be given. The saints started with faith and forced themselves to be obedient. They were dead to the world, the flesh and the devil. By dying to self, more grace from God is given. Atheists are stuck in a horizontal mode of thought and viscious cycle of blind and dark "rationalism."Mankind is asleep, hypnotized and in prison and doesn't even know it. Christ penetrated the barrier between God and man to show us the way out. A person cannot even begin to think vertically untill they take their eyes off themself. All the evil and problems of the world were caused because mankind took his eyes off God and placed them on himself. We lost "God consciousness" so to speak. Christ came to restore the original "God consciousness" to mankind. Love for others and the exercise of virtue will attract God's grace and illumine the mind. When we took our eyes off God and put them on ourselves as Adam and Eve did, we lost our connection. We are the children of those disobedience parents and inherited their disobedient nature. It is only through forcing ourselves in all good, and overcoming ourself and the world that we become truly awakened.
There is a myriad of dark and inhuman spirits working on the circumferance of this planet who are totally devoted to keep us in this bondage and darkness. They do this through the senses. They make the world appear very attractive to us so we will not think of God. They want to destroy us for two reasons: 1. Because we are God's creation. They hate God and want to destroy His work. 2. They are jealous of what we can become and our spiritual potential. We are made in God's image.. We have three enemies that obstruct our ascent to God.
1. The world.
2. The flesh
3. The devil.
These three things must be resisted to the point of death. Saint Mary of Egypt was a prostitute her whole life. She retired to the desert and resisted her sinful incilnations to the point of exhaustion. She overcame the three enemies. The world, the flesh (herself) and the devil. At the end of her life she made the sign of the cross over a lake, walked on the water and received Holy Communion. This potential is available to all of us if we will simply die to self and overcome the world.
I could write a long and detailed response but instead I'll just use this as it's the same thing in the end:
Circular argument LOL!
Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.
I am not qualified to speak on spiritual matters. I just wanted to give an introduction to another mode of life that is available to us. God exists, and He is more radiant and beautiful then a millions suns combined. Indeed, if one saw God, and then saw a millions sons combined, the latter would look dark and ugly in comparison to the Divine glory and beauty of God.
Prove God exists. There is no more reason to believe God exists than to believe a booga booga monster exists. Believing in things without evidence is irrational.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Absolutely. Think of all those wangs hanging about.
Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.
And this thread isn't in Trollville because?...............
This was a complete 360, let's see if I have this straight.
God gives proof to those who deserve it, I don't deserve it that is why I have never had proof, but everyone has the knowledge in their heart, which should be proof enough, but I don't have faith so he is not pleased, so I can't have proof even though knowledge in my heart should be proof enough, but then I would have faith, then he would give me proof which I wouldn't need because I have faith and he would be pleased.......
I just did more spins in reasoning than a Russian figure skater.... ugh, I feel sick.
P.S. Saint Mary of Egypy lived in the 4th century if my memory is correct. She is just one of the many, many examples of those righteous ones who overcame human nature.
The atheist appeal to what they think is logic, is absurd and ridiculous inlight of everything I have said above. The "wisdom" of the world is foolishness to God and the saints.
OK then. So give us your wisdom against our foolishness. Bring it. Prove to us that without a doubt, God exists.
And yes, the Bible says that those who don't believe in God are fools, but so does the Koran. Why don't you follow that too?
And then...
Well then, don't the Muslims prove Allah?
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
You have it all wrong. The human heart has sufficient knowledge of God. But external "proof" is not given. God organized it this way. He wants us to respond to and honor the knowledge we do have, then more knowledge and illumination will ne given.
You can argue and "rationalize" all you want. The lives and experiences of the saints reduce your worldly "wisdom" to complete absurdity. There is even a prayer to the Mother of God (the Virgin Mary) which says "Rejoice, thou who showest philosophers to be fools."
Peace. And forgive me a sinner. Thank you.
Jedi, even if there were Muslim saints (which there isn't), it certainl wouldn't help the case for atheism. Muslims may have experienced the supernatural, but they were not saints according to the strict and Christian definition of the word.
So it is not may fault I don't believe in god then. It is his fault for not enlightening my mind. Besides... this is proof that he does not exist. If a non believer cannot see god, it is because he doesn't exist. If you need to be a believer to see god, it just means that you are creating it inside your head.
First of all, who is doing that today?
Secondly, where in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary? Anywhere? I've read it through a few times, and don't recall this ever even being mentioned.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
nope, but feel free to provide an actual argument for it, if you have any.
wrong again. that "sin" thing only applies to gullible suckers who believe in it, and that would be you. i live in the real world where we work on the principles of right/wrong, empathy and compassion. you should visit sometime.
and the clear of mind see that god is hogwash.
actually, for me, it's more of a love of the truth. and a loathing of fear monger mythologies based on primitive misconceptions of nature and a need to impose a universal morality.
you take a lot of pride in your biblical knowledge and your assumed knowledge of atheists. you seem kind of angry about the mere prescense of atheists in the world, today. you're fabricating most, if not all, of your generalizations about atheists, which amounts to lying. you seem envious and jealous of our confidence and independence. the mere fact that you're here indicates doubt, otherwise you would be content to leave us be and carry on with your life. you resent our choice to not believe in your silly invisible man in the sky. so in conclusion, you're most definitely spiritually diseased.
actually, most atheists have a far greater knowledge of the bible and christianity than the majority of self professed christians. i personally have read the bible cover to cover, been baptized and confirmed and done extensive readings on religions in europe and the middle east. so bite my shiny metal ass.
speaking for myself, spirituality is useless. that's YOUR hangup, not mine. you really should stick to topics you have an actual understanding of, like guilt, fear, self loathing and damnation, because you really don't know crap about atheism.
i think a trip down reality lane would do far more to clear your thoughts than anything i read in your post.
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
Sorry, but your argument supports atheism more than Christianity.
Think about it. God is love, and He wants everybody to be close to Him, right?
So why does He abandon those who need Him the most?
If God truly existed, He would look at the people who were devout and say, "Ok, these people are on the right track, I don't have to worry about them. But those others who are drifting from Me really need to feel My presence, so they will know to come back to Me."
But it is just as you say. Only those who blindly accept what they are told feel "God's presence". What a testament to the power of the human mind to delude itself! The more I questioned Christianity and the Bible, the more I realized that your God and Christ are all just myths, like every other morality tale and science substitute. And your Saints are just regular people who got big stories built up around them.
You believe it all because you want the opiate-like high of wrapping that delusion around yourself like a big warm blanket. You don't think. You don't question. You don't reason. You aren't mature enough to face the cold harsh reality of the world as it truly is.
When you step back and see the big picture, you should be seeing God, but what you really see is all the foolish mortals believing in lies and wasting their precious lives.
-----
I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously.
- Douglas Adams, Salmon of Doubt
[Prophecy of St. Nilus the Myrrh-streamer of Mt. Athos...1651]
After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable...At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign...Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society...The Churches of God will be deprived of God-fearing and pious pastors, and woe to the Christians remaining in the world at that time; they will completely lose their faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all.
P.S. The phrase "myrh-streamer" means that after he died, his body remained incorrupt (it never decomposed), and a miraculous myrh flowed from his body and healed people of illnesses. This phenomenon is not uncommon among the Eastern saints.
Hi Max, God never abandoned anyone. We abandoned Him. The very nature of the Gospel is that God HAS reached out to lost humanity. Hence, He became incarnate. "The Son of Man came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" -- Jesus. "They that are whole need not a physician, but they that are sick" --Jesus. "The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" --Jesus.
We were ALL lost and on our way to eternal damnation. Christ came to save us ALL. THAT is the very claim and nature of the Gospel. WE DON'T HAVE TO GO TO HELL! He came to save us.
God does not send people to Hell. We send ourselves by persistenly refusing and resisting His call to Himself. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not commited by saying a few stupid words: "I deny the Holy Spirit." It is commited by a life long rejection of the truth as personified and manifested in the God-Man --Jesus Christ, and His offer of eternal life.
As for your abandoning Christ, it doesn't surprise me. The Scriptures said this would happen in the last days. We are in the Laodician age of hypocracy, self-love and shallow Christians. "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that endures to the end will be saved" --Jesus.
[edit: double post]
Nice. I have only heard of dead bodies streaming excrement. Would that make that person a "crap-streamer"? If that's the case, then I can think of a lost of theists who are saints before they die.
Okay, I have gotten that humor/slap out of the way. Here's what I don't get about Eastern Orthodox Christians, there is a very clear commandment from God about graven images and false idols. However, if you walk into an Orthodox church, there are icons everywhere. Seems a little contradictory to me.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
The commandment against idol worship reffered to actually worshipping the gods who were allegedly contained in the idols. The Orthodox Church does not worship idols; that is, false gods. We venerate (honor) the saints. The icon is an earthly image that depicts a heavenly reality. The veneration given to the saint ascends to the proto-type. Saint John of Damascus wrote extensively on this subject, and the veneration of icons was approved by the Seventh Ecumenical Council of the Church in 787 AD. The ecumenical councils are guided by the Holy Spirit and are infallible. The council in Jerusalem --Acts 15 -- shows that the Holy Spirit was behind that council. Keep in mind, there is a difference between worship and veneration. If I see a picture of my mother and kiss it, I am venerating (honoring her), not worshipping her.
*blink blink blink*
First, I forgot about the infallibility thing. Did you know that the Catholic Pope is also infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. When he did so recently, he said only Catholics are correct. Your guys are also infallible though. Hmmmm. The question is: Great hats with crazy beards or great hats buy clean shaven?
Anyway, you distinguish between veneration and worship. If venerating is okay, then perhaps people should just venerate statues of golden calves.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
I like Sts. Cyril and Methodius of Thessaloniki. They made up a written language for the Russians. Anyone who can develop such a screwed up phonetic system deserves to steal February 14 from St. Valentine.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
Hmm...first of all, I can still recognize people. From what I see today, most people are still modest. Most pastors I know are god-fearing. Homosexuality and murder don't rule society. They have always been present, obviously, as seen by the fact that they are mentioned in Leviticus, so nothing new there. A few people who claimed they were "Christians" have come here and lost their faith, but the majority of Christians are, well, still Christians. Now, as to this guy's body remaining incorrupted (as in it didn't rot or decompose), where the hell is it today? In some museum? Somehow I doubt that out of his body flowed myrh. Any evidence?
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
Evfimy, you make many assertions, yet provide no proof. Nope, your bible and saints are not proof. Wander around the forums for a bit and you'll see that the bible is just a collection of stories written by and selected by people. The saints stories , you must admit, are mostly pretty far-fetched.
Then you follow up and say
So if you can't believe unless you're enlightened - and you can't be enlightened unless you deserve it - and you don't deserve it unless you're already enlightened... well, you should get the point that's really circular logic. Don't retreat into that tired, old argument of "knowing in your heart". Nope, it doesn't hold water.
May I suggest that you not proselytize? Quite honestly, preaching doesn't go far around here.
Perhaps you could offer an argument and back it up with something concrete so we could have a discussion and offer differing arguments.
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By the way, if this really happened, seems like it would have made the history books I had in high school. If it really happened, there would be a stampede to the doors of your church. Heck, the pope would probably be first in line.
If you assert this is still happening, surely it would make the 10 o'clock news - with video.
And if it's not uncommon and true, where is the stack of perfectly preserved bodies that heals people and why haven't all illnesses been cured with it?
If you have a god that is loving and kind, et al, seems to me he would want everyone to be happy and healthy. There's no doubt that if this pile of bodies healed people, there would be a whole lot of converts.
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It is interesting that you believe in saints without ever questioning them, i mean why aren't these non corrupt, myrh streaming bodies ever been studied by scientists? I mean this is evidence right? And those miracles of the past, it is strange how they do things like walk on water (hey Chris Angel walks on water does that make him a saint?)
You are quite willing to believe in things that cannot be proven at all. Would your church be willing to allow scientists to study these bodies? I highly doubt it. Would the church allow a body of scientists to look into the miraculous claims of healing with proper medical examinations? How do you go on proving the claims of previous saints of the past?
Also ever notice many walk on water, heal people and so on, it seems that every culture has it, chinese have these myths (and they do call them myths) so do the japanese, Middle eastern, south and central americans, native americans, polynesians, various african tribes. Seems to be a pretty common occurance. Eh then again what do i know, i am just an atheist right?
Hi evfimy
Could you tell me about St.Constantine
This guy is hopefully a troll. It scares me that people can actually swallow this hook, line and sinker to the point of simply spouting it. The language is an appeal to the emotions with a carrot and stick approach chucked in for good measure.
The problem is that people are indoctrinated and effectively brainwashed with this drivel. Some are harmless but others really want to get the message out there. I don't think any reasoning is gonna work with this guy. 2+2= whatever he wants it to be.
Typical fiat by naked assertion. I know that this will take all the fun out of our resident historian atheists and philosopy buffs, but I hear the hooves of my one trick poney galloping in.
For the original poster who is not familure with me my "one trick poney" is actually two simple questions, if you can answer, would convince me that your god exists. That is if you have a credible answer that backs up your claim, "My god did it". All you have to do is demonstrate the two following items.
1. Demonstrate the mechinisms of HOW(NOT WHO) but HOW God, disimboidied ghost, got a 9-14 year old girl pregnant.
2. Show me the peer reviewed medical study that makes surviving rigor mortis possible.
When you can accomplish those two things you can convince me.
That is my one trick poney. But so far, no Christian has ever been able to give me any answer besides the standard "all powerfull" "God can do what he wants".
Get back to me when you have accomplished those goals. Dont worry, I wont hold my breath.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Susan, St. Nilus lived in the 16th century if my memory is correct, and people did stampeed into the Church. You can't be serious in believing it would be on the Jewish controled news media. The media is only concerned with bashing Christianity, not supporting it.
I refuse to be drawn into atheistic fights. By arguing with you, I'm going to your level and giving the impression that you are even capable of reason. Atheists need serious Orthodox psychotherapy. Atheism is a spiritual, not an intellectual problem.
Orthodox Psychotherapy
http://www.vic.com/~tscon/pelagia/htm/b02.en.orthodox_psychotherapy.00.htm
Forgive me a sinner. Thank you. I forgive you.
My last thread was addressed to all atheists. I feel so sorry for you. Stop listening to the devil. He is a liar. Think for yourselves.
Forgive me. Thank you.
Ok then. If we are not "capable of reason", and you just won't argue with us because you're "so superior", let me argue you from a theistic (Christian) point of view, since I used to be one. I see from your arguments that you are Catholic. Answer me these things then: why do Catholics worship Mary, since the Bible never says anything about this, and what is the point of these "saints"? The Bible never says anything about them either. I await your response, though mostly from the first question.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
I am not Catholic. I'm Orthodox. And we don't worship Mary. This is a common western misconception. We venerate (honor) her, even as you might venerate a picture of your mother by kissing it.
Your leaving Christ does not surprise me. The Scripture's said this would happen in the last days. People like you only show the Scripture's to be accurate. But I think most, if not all people who forsake the truth, never really belonged to it in the first place. Most seeds falls on bad ground and are not able to grow.
Forgive me. Thank you.
So you kiss pictures of Mary? Something in the back of my head screams "idol worship!" So god chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell? Some loving god. Answer me this: If god made all of the people here at the RRS to go to hell, then will you truly be happy in heaven knowing that we are suffering in hell because god wanted us to be there?
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
I...I...I'm at...a loss...for...words.
I caught that too. Anti-semitism is such a great way to convince people to come to your version of christianity.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
i feel sorry for you. stop listening to god. he's fictional. think for yourself.
you're not forgiven. grow up. you're welcome.
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
Suck a frozen turd to a point and stab yourself with it.
Are you sure the devil is a liar? He gave me a bunch of free CDs and that was pretty cool of him! Wait a minute... these are all copies of the "My Humps" single!
NOOO SATAN HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO MEEEEEE
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
I for one was disappointed that this topic was not in fact about the football team from New Orleans.
Why do you assume the worst about the Devil when nobody ever heard his side of the story?
I see this wound up in trollville!
You said
So where are all these bodies that have healing myhr streaming out of them? Why aren't people being healed right and left?
Trust me, if that were happening people would still be streaming into your church. There would be stuff all over the internet with video on YouTube. The news would spread so fast that the six degrees of separation would quickly dwindle to one or two.
You don't watch the news very much, do you?
Geez. Can you possibly really believe that there's a huge Jewish conspiracy in the entire world's new media to crush xianity?
Are you into conspiracies everywhere or just a bigot?
So what are you doing here in the forums? (Besides proselytizing, that is.)
I think it's more the fact that you cannot make an assertion and then back it up with fact. You don't want to argue (I prefer the word "discuss"
because can cannot refute the replies you've already been given.
Egad! Personality Exorcisms!!!!
Come on, evfimy. You assert much yet don't prove a darned thing.
Don't you ever question or wonder "HHmmm. How did that happen?" without answering yourself with "goddidit" and no reasoning behind it? Don't you ever wonder if maybe there's an explanation besides "goddidit"?
How can an intelligent human being just blindly accept stories so fantastic without wondering if maybe the story has been embellished? Don't you ever wonder if some of those saints stories have become tall tales over the years?
Just like people start believing urban legends, don't you ever think that some of your stories might have come about the same way? (Think snopes.com)
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If it was real psychotherapy then it wouldn't need to be prefaced by the word "Orthodox".
Anyway, you need a dose of Chacarron. Chacarron disproves your silly notion of god. There's no way you can refute me.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2120659111755287021Evfimy, would you care to respond to the info on this "prophecy" from Orthodoxwiki? From http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prophecy_of_St._Nilus
Wow, looks like your fellow Orthodox Church members don't buy this "prophecy", huh? Got any better reason why we should?