Another victim of theocracy.

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Another victim of theocracy.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I dunno. Posting comments

I dunno. Posting comments like that on the internet is silly? I mean you live in Iran. I'd either leave the country or get rid of my computer.

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I dunno. Posting comments like that on the internet is silly? I mean you live in Iran. I'd either leave the country or get rid of my computer.

 

That is your argument? Now please correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like "When in Rome". 

If it were not for blaspemy our species would still be flinging poo at each other.

So your advice to those in Iran is to accept their lot even if they live under a bat shit crazy theocratic leadership?

Are you trying to help them or maintain the status Quo?

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are you trying to help them?

are you trying to help them?


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I dunno. Posting comments like that on the internet is silly? I mean you live in Iran. I'd either leave the country or get rid of my computer.

 

That is your argument? Now please correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like "When in Rome". 

If it were not for blaspemy our species would still be flinging poo at each other.

So your advice to those in Iran is to accept their lot even if they live under a bat shit crazy theocratic leadership?

Are you trying to help them or maintain the status Quo?

If you live in Iran you either put up or shut up. It is no different than any other country where you have dictators. I went to school with several dozen Iranians back in the 80's. They all left because Iran was a shit hole of religious fucks. They came over here and started over again. I know people who left Egypt, to start over again,  etc, etc, rinse and repeat.

Sure you can have revolutions, but that requires a very specific set of events to take place. You need a leader to die and a moment of weakness. I don't see that happening in Iran, no now.


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quite frankly a great deal

quite frankly a great deal of north african, middle eastern, and central asian people want islamists to be in charge. i won't say they're a majority, but they may constitute the largest united bloc. we see how the "arab spring" has led to a resurgence of extremism in north africa. are the masses being duped? of course. masses are always duped, of necessity. but it seems they prefer being duped by an ideology they can understand than by foreign, confusing american liberalism. i am highly doubtful that a revolution in iran would mean a secular society. it would just mean a change of the distribution of power among the ayatollahs, a new constitution that after much wrangling would look much like the old, and a greater openness to the west in terms of trading in consumer goods, and people would welcome it with a cheer. if you ask me, the vast majority of iranians don't feel they need help.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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quite frankly a great deal

dp


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TBH, I think revolution

TBH, I think revolution would not be effective. There are two methods or conditions known to successfully induce changes in society we would perceive as being good.

The first is occupation. It is brutal and expensive and can create long lasting problems, but it can work. It has worked.

The second is stability. The west didn't empower women or non-whites until it was safe and secure, and prosperous. From the end of WWII through to today, the only real threat of any kind to the west was Soviet Russia. And that threat never was more than nebulous. It was enough to inspire mcarthyism and other shit, but not enough to galvanise commerce, industry, religion, patriotism, and government all working towards the single goal of defeating the enemy as the world wars did.

As a result, the west had the stability and resources to allow for introspection and social change.

The middle east and Africa have neither the stability nor the resources to allow for introspection and social change.

As either course requires years of favourable conditions to realise any such change, it will be quite some time before those regions can accomplish what the west has accomplished.

No revolution has ever accomplished the changes seen in the west over the last century. The only civilisations that have made social progress were stable and unthreatened. In order to see women gain equal rights in Iran, India, etc., those regions must first acquire stability and confidence. The majority of the population must first be comfortable enough for the society to focus on internal problems instead of focusing on external threats and existential issues.

India is, I believe, starting to get on that road. As is China. But Africa and the middle east have a long ways to go before it is possible.

In their defence, the west is directly responsible for much of the instability, and must learn to leave well enough alone before those regions can attain the stability and self reliance necessary to begin taking a hard look at themselves and making social progress.

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iwbiek wrote:quite frankly a

iwbiek wrote:
quite frankly a great deal of north african, middle eastern, and central asian people want islamists to be in charge. i won't say they're a majority, but they may constitute the largest united bloc. we see how the "arab spring" has led to a resurgence of extremism in north africa. are the masses being duped? of course. masses are always duped, of necessity. but it seems they prefer being duped by an ideology they can understand than by foreign, confusing american liberalism. i am highly doubtful that a revolution in iran would mean a secular society. it would just mean a change of the distribution of power among the ayatollahs, a new constitution that after much wrangling would look much like the old, and a greater openness to the west in terms of trading in consumer goods, and people would welcome it with a cheer. if you ask me, the vast majority of iranians don't feel they need help.

Yea so fuck the ones who do want help. Fuck Malala because most men where she lived don't want her to get an education. Fuck all those brave women in Saudi Arabia who broke the social norm and drove cars in protest and put those videos on line. Yea, fuck them. Glad Susan B Anthony and Martin Luther King didn't have you to advise them.

Iran is still a theocracy regardless of what you think the population does or does not want. In the west we protect political and religious pluralism. If you think what they do is ok then move there. I doubt you'd get away with any of the stuff you post here over there.

If you are going to make a case against our forgien policy do that. But that is a separate issue than being a social liberal. I always get amused at people who use the products of western society to condemn western society.

You got a poster of Che above your bed too?

 

https://www.facebook.com/exmna <----------------I am quite sure plenty of the members here have family from all parts of the Arab and Islamic world you could ask how peachy keen it is over there.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:You got a

Brian37 wrote:
You got a poster of Che above your bed too?



nope, but i've got three big fat books about him that i've read rather carefully, whereas i'm sure the only thing you know about him is that his face often appears on posters.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
You got a poster of Che above your bed too?

nope, but i've got three big fat books about him that i've read rather carefully, whereas i'm sure the only thing you know about him is that his face often appears on posters.

No, you do what theists do execpt you do it with the issue of economics. You see what you want in his history, but you don't want to see the ugly truth which wasn't as pretty as you'd like to paint it out to be. He was not the nice hero you paint him out to be. He was an opportunist who manipulated people basing it on a populist idea. No differeent than what Stalin did with Marx's ideas.

Now if you think what Che set up was so awesome, move to Cuba, he loved Marx too.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:iwbiek

Brian37 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
You got a poster of Che above your bed too?

nope, but i've got three big fat books about him that i've read rather carefully, whereas i'm sure the only thing you know about him is that his face often appears on posters.

No, you do what theists do execpt you do it with the issue of economics. You see what you want in his history, but you don't want to see the ugly truth which wasn't as pretty as you'd like to paint it out to be. He was not the nice hero you paint him out to be. He was an opportunist who manipulated people basing it on a populist idea. No differeent than what Stalin did with Marx's ideas.

Now if you think what Che set up was so awesome, move to Cuba, he loved Marx too.

 

 

 




i'm sorry, where exactly did i do all this "painting" of che? oh right, in your tiny little mind...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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oh, and i wouldn't mind

oh, and i wouldn't mind moving to cuba actually. one could do much worse. i'd move there before returning to the states, i can assure you of that.


that's the second time tonight you've told me to move somewhere if i "love it so much." you're starting to sound like a stereotypical redneck republican.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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http://www.therealcuba.com/Mu

http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100314010005AAh2KCy

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/13-reasons-you-should-throw-away-your-che-guevara-t-shirt

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/truth-about-che-guevara

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2004/09/the_cult_of_che.html

Now here is what you do not get.

All governments require money to run, and even today's Castro family has investments in the global market. No money to pay your army, no money to maintain your political monopoly. So if you really Che was a hero or Marx was a hero, this is where they lead. Modern Cuba. All you do when you follow their lead is shift wealth to the populous to a party. It still amounts to a monopoly. And to do what Che did you would have to become a monster to oppress those who value property rights and the private sector. And that is exactly what Che did. And only an idiot would think it is possible to rid 7 billion people of diverse desires and economic views.

Mixed economies without a huge disparity in pay gap are the only reasonable economies. No rules is what big business wants, and you can blow it out your ass if you think Cuba is a decent model. I will never be a fan of either/or on economics. What Che did set up a monopoly and is as bad as Ayn Rand's thought that you could simply be selfish and everyone would be fine.

MONOPOLIES of power are the same be it a business, a religion, or a political party.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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iwbiek wrote:oh, and i

iwbiek wrote:
oh, and i wouldn't mind moving to cuba actually. one could do much worse. i'd move there before returning to the states, i can assure you of that.
that's the second time tonight you've told me to move somewhere if i "love it so much." you're starting to sound like a stereotypical redneck republican.

Oh becasue I don't want to live under your delusional utopia that most of the sane world doesn't want?

Have fun with your revolution buddy, seems like every wiseguy who thinks like that ends up getting bitch slapped by the west so, give it a shot if you want. Doubt you find enough supportes in the west to make the entire world like Cuba.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I dunno. Posting comments like that on the internet is silly? I mean you live in Iran. I'd either leave the country or get rid of my computer.

 

That is your argument? Now please correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like "When in Rome". 

If it were not for blaspemy our species would still be flinging poo at each other.

So your advice to those in Iran is to accept their lot even if they live under a bat shit crazy theocratic leadership?

Are you trying to help them or maintain the status Quo?

If you live in Iran you either put up or shut up. It is no different than any other country where you have dictators. I went to school with several dozen Iranians back in the 80's. They all left because Iran was a shit hole of religious fucks. They came over here and started over again. I know people who left Egypt, to start over again,  etc, etc, rinse and repeat.

Sure you can have revolutions, but that requires a very specific set of events to take place. You need a leader to die and a moment of weakness. I don't see that happening in Iran, no now.

I agree not now, no. But there are cracks all over the Middle East showing. Look how long it took for Europe to climb out of the dark ages. If you think short term no, nothing will happen. It isn't up to us to invade. But we have the voices here that when people from the East migrate here, they hear us and those messages get back. The world is even smaller now with the internet. I think given time, with our modern technology, it will make theocracies and dictatorships much harder to hold on to. 

The East is not as monochromatic as the governments they live under for the most part. The key isn't to get into fights with the nuts who hold the power. The key is to have their own voices grow in numbers.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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 Couple of things... 1)

 Couple of things...

 

1) good to see you back Vas.

2) I agree, a revolution isn't in the cards for the entire middle east. I think for the most part they want America OUT of the area. We keep sticking our fucking noses in over there and we have stirred up the hornets and they keep stinging us. Fucking American politicians are dumb.

3) If Islam is their religion then let them have it.


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Brian37 wrote:iwbiek

Brian37 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
oh, and i wouldn't mind moving to cuba actually. one could do much worse. i'd move there before returning to the states, i can assure you of that.
that's the second time tonight you've told me to move somewhere if i "love it so much." you're starting to sound like a stereotypical redneck republican.

Oh becasue I don't want to live under your delusional utopia that most of the sane world doesn't want?

Have fun with your revolution buddy, seems like every wiseguy who thinks like that ends up getting bitch slapped by the west so, give it a shot if you want. Doubt you find enough supportes in the west to make the entire world like Cuba.

The sad irony is that Cuba is a better place to live than the US right now. No real difference in freedom for the average person, less geopolitical enemies, less domestic spying, better health care and education. The US has some advantages, but not enough. Hell even Russia and China are more transparent and honest in many regards than the US has become this millennium. And it's only going to get worse.

digitalbeachbum wrote:

 Couple of things...

 

1) good to see you back Vas.

2) I agree, a revolution isn't in the cards for the entire middle east. I think for the most part they want America OUT of the area. We keep sticking our fucking noses in over there and we have stirred up the hornets and they keep stinging us. Fucking American politicians are dumb.

3) If Islam is their religion then let them have it.

1: Thanks. Finally finished all Babylon 5 only to jump right in to a Marvel phase 1 marathon followed immediately by starting up STTNG. About to finish S5 and start watching DS9 simultaneously. But it has been so long that I think my tolerance capacity for Brian's idiocy has been fully recharged, so I can read his shit without wanting to kill the entire species.

2: I agree, though Europe also needs to back off. Russia and China have not seemed to take much interest in the area, but if they do interfere then they too need to back off.

3: I agree. Let islam run the same gauntlet christianity did. We'll end up with super mosques in a few years, but it's better than the current scenario.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:
http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100314010005AAh2KCy

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/13-reasons-you-should-throw-away-your-che-guevara-t-shirt

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/truth-about-che-guevara

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2004/09/the_cult_of_che.html

Now here is what you do not get.

All governments require money to run, and even today's Castro family has investments in the global market. No money to pay your army, no money to maintain your political monopoly. So if you really Che was a hero or Marx was a hero, this is where they lead. Modern Cuba. All you do when you follow their lead is shift wealth to the populous to a party. It still amounts to a monopoly. And to do what Che did you would have to become a monster to oppress those who value property rights and the private sector. And that is exactly what Che did. And only an idiot would think it is possible to rid 7 billion people of diverse desires and economic views.

Mixed economies without a huge disparity in pay gap are the only reasonable economies. No rules is what big business wants, and you can blow it out your ass if you think Cuba is a decent model. I will never be a fan of either/or on economics. What Che did set up a monopoly and is as bad as Ayn Rand's thought that you could simply be selfish and everyone would be fine.

MONOPOLIES of power are the same be it a business, a religion, or a political party.




now here is what YOU do not get.


i asked you a simple question: where have i given any sort of opinion, positive or negative, on che? you refused to give me a simple answer, no doubt because the answer would embarrass you. the fact is, i've never ONCE given an opinion on che, or to my knowledge even mentioned him, on this site, in six years.


you NEVER give ANYONE a straight answer to a straight question. and that's why pretty much everyone here, except bob, thinks you're a fuckhead.


you have NO IDEA what i think abut che, or if i own a che t-shirt, or whatever. for all you know, i might AGREE with every link you posted. but of course you WANT me to be a che fanatic, because it's much easier for you to argue with a figment of your challenged imagination than with reality. your ONLY basis for what you THINK are my political or economic views is my avatar, and the fact that i casually mention i'm a marxist, and you don't even know what that is because you've never read marx, or anything serious about marx or marxism.


this is why i say you're dishonest. it's obvious to everyone that you have NO UNDERSTANDING of the things you attack: not religion, not economic views, not political views, and certainly not people. you're just an angry little man who has a hard time finding is own identity without having something to rail against. i guarantee the one thing you've never turned you invective against is yourself. i'm willing to bet you've never owned up to a single mistake in your life. it's always been at least partially someone else's fault, hasn't it?


in a nutshell, you think everyone's view of the world is as childish and simplistic as yours.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson