Atheist Must Swear to God or Leave Air Force

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Atheist Must Swear to God or Leave Air Force

 There is a possibility of a lawsuit against the military in the works over this Sargeant. In the past, an Air Force soldier could opt for an "alternate phrase" or leave that part out altogether, but the Air Force has amended that policy :

news.yahoo.com/atheist-must-swear-god-leave-us-air-force-232153866.html

 

Atheist Must Swear To God, Or be forced to leave the Air Force :

Washington (AFP) - The US Air Force has told a sergeant he will have to leave the military unless he agrees to take an oath with the phrase "so help me God," officials said Tuesday.

 

In the latest religious controversy to roil the air force, the atheist airman last month was denied his request to re-enlist because of his refusal to swear to God -- and he is now poised to take the military to court, his lawyer said.

 

"We have not received word from the Air Force regarding our letter. It has not indicated a willingness to settle out of court," said Monica Miller, an attorney for the American Humanist Association, which has taken up the service member's case.

With the deadline for re-enlisting expiring in November, the technical sergeant at Creech Air Force base in Nevada -- whose name has not been released -- will be forced to sue the government in a federal court, Miller told AFP.

In the past, an airman could opt for an alternative phrase and omit the words "so help me God," but the US Air Force changed its policy in October 2013. In the meantime, "a written legal opinion is being requested" from the Pentagon's top lawyer, she said. The air force has been plagued by controversy for years over religion and the role of Christian evangelists. The US Air Force Academy in Colorado faced accusations several years ago that evangelical Christians exerted a dominating influence over the institution. But attempts to counter the perceived bias in the service have sparked criticism from Christian activist groups, who allege a new rule stifles the religious expression of troops. The disputed rule bars commanders from promoting their religious convictions to their subordinates. Advocates of the policy say it protects troops who worry their careers could be jeopardized if they do not take part in their superior's Christian activities. The other branches of the American military do not require the reference to God and make the phrase optional. "This is the only branch to my knowledge that's actually requiring everyone in all instances to use the religious language," Miller said. The requirement violates the US Constitution, which bars religious tests to hold office or other positions, Miller said of the case, which was first reported by the Air Force Times. "The government cannot compel a nonbeliever to take an oath that affirms the existence of a supreme being," she said. The sergeant's service expires in November and he has until then to re-enlist and take the oath, said US Air Force spokeswoman Ann Stefanek.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 Nope, religion is not

 Nope, religion is not poison. Never affects anyone. No one is basing this on a holy book.

 

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Brian37 wrote: Nope,

Brian37 wrote:

 Nope, religion is not poison. Never affects anyone. No one is basing this on a holy book.

 




you do know that "to affect" (even "to affect negatively") and "to poison" are not synonymous, don't you? ugh, of course you don't...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Brian displays more

Brian displays more cognitive dissonence coupled with sheer stupidity, but that's not new.

The air force is going to lose. The harder christians fight to evangelise the country, the harder they'll get kicked in the teeth every step of the way.

This is really a good thing. Having this setted in court will prevent future attempts by other branches of military and government to do the same.

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Vastet wrote:Brian displays

Vastet wrote:
Brian displays more cognitive dissonence coupled with sheer stupidity, but that's not new. The air force is going to lose. The harder christians fight to evangelise the country, the harder they'll get kicked in the teeth every step of the way. This is really a good thing. Having this setted in court will prevent future attempts by other branches of military and government to do the same.

I would agree but would wonder why they amended the earlier idea where one could omit the "so help me god" or use another phrase if need be ? 

Of course, maybe they were afraid that someone would say : 'So help me Allah". Smiling Couldn't resist typing that. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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meh. there's a saying in

meh. there's a saying in the islamic world: say whatever you want about god but be damn careful how you talk about the prophet.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:meh. there's a

iwbiek wrote:
meh. there's a saying in the islamic world: say whatever you want about god but be damn careful how you talk about the prophet.

I could see where that might ring true 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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When I went in the military

When I went in the military I mumbled the words. Honestly I didn't give a fuck. I told them I was a Catholic because the recruiters told me that I was better off picking a religion even if I was an atheist.

There were a couple of times when I had to say an oath alone but they never forced me to swear to god. they all knew I was an atheist and they didn't give a shit as long as I did my job.


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iwbiek wrote:meh. there's a

iwbiek wrote:
meh. there's a saying in the islamic world: say whatever you want about god but be damn careful how you talk about the prophet.

I'm too lazy to look it up. What is so fucking special about the child molester?


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That's one way to make sure

That's one way to make sure there are no atheists in foxholes.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:iwbiek

digitalbeachbum wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
meh. there's a saying in the islamic world: say whatever you want about god but be damn careful how you talk about the prophet.

I'm too lazy to look it up. What is so fucking special about the child molester?


what is so special about god? anyhow, my source is a BBC documentary about salman rushdie's years in hiding. i can't recall the name of it, but i think it came out within the last 10 years or so.


btw, i really hate to show a lack of atheist solidarity (heh heh) and question one of our favorite petards, but is there any documentary evidence, in the hadith or anywhere else, that muhammad actually had a physical relationship with his child brides? because the prevailing custom was not to consummate before they reached puberty. or is it just a case of muhammad being a pedophile because we want him to have been one?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:digitalbeachbum

iwbiek wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
meh. there's a saying in the islamic world: say whatever you want about god but be damn careful how you talk about the prophet.

I'm too lazy to look it up. What is so fucking special about the child molester?

what is so special about god? anyhow, my source is a BBC documentary about salman rushdie's years in hiding. i can't recall the name of it, but i think it came out within the last 10 years or so.
btw, i really hate to show a lack of atheist solidarity (heh heh) and question one of our favorite petards, but is there any documentary evidence, in the hadith or anywhere else, that muhammad actually had a physical relationship with his child brides? because the prevailing custom was not to consummate before they reached puberty. or is it just a case of muhammad being a pedophile because we want him to have been one?

I would ask myself, what are the odds of a Muslim being a pedo?


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I for one will not judge

I for one will not judge historical figures based on ethics that didn't exist. Any male here would have been fucking their 'child' wife if they'd been living back then instead of now. It's how things were done.

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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I would ask myself, what are the odds of a Muslim being a pedo?




a muslim where, in what time period, of which tradition, etc., etc.? never mind the fact that the "islam" of muhammad's time (if people even called it that) was drastically different from that of today. before i decided to focus on south asian religions, islam was a huge interest of mine, and i don't think it enables or encourages pedophilia any more than any other religious tradition in the right context. "islam" is no more homogeneous than "hinduism" or christianity. personally, though i've hardly done exhaustive research on the subject (quite frankly, i don't see the point in such research outside the realm of polemics), i haven't seen any compelling evidence that muhammad was a pedophile in the generally accepted sense, i.e. being sexually attracted to prepubescent children, nor have i seen any evidence at all that he engaged in sexual activity with prepubescent children.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Vastet wrote:I for one will

Vastet wrote:
I for one will not judge historical figures based on ethics that didn't exist. Any male here would have been fucking their 'child' wife if they'd been living back then instead of now. It's how things were done.



once they reached puberty, sure. according to the evidence at our disposal, sex with a prepubescent bride would still have been perceived as devient in arab society. i doubt it would have been the scandal it is today, but the moment they began menstruating, be it at eleven or twelve or fourteen, they were fair game.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Vastet wrote:I for one will

Vastet wrote:
I for one will not judge historical figures based on ethics that didn't exist. Any male here would have been fucking their 'child' wife if they'd been living back then instead of now. It's how things were done.

I disagree.


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iwbiek wrote:digitalbeachbum

iwbiek wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:

I would ask myself, what are the odds of a Muslim being a pedo?


a muslim where, in what time period, of which tradition, etc., etc.? never mind the fact that the "islam" of muhammad's time (if people even called it that) was drastically different from that of today. before i decided to focus on south asian religions, islam was a huge interest of mine, and i don't think it enables or encourages pedophilia any more than any other religious tradition in the right context. "islam" is no more homogeneous than "hinduism" or christianity. personally, though i've hardly done exhaustive research on the subject (quite frankly, i don't see the point in such research outside the realm of polemics), i haven't seen any compelling evidence that muhammad was a pedophile in the generally accepted sense, i.e. being sexually attracted to prepubescent children, nor have i seen any evidence at all that he engaged in sexual activity with prepubescent children.

Roughly twenty years ago a friend of mine in special forces said they caught a number of middle eastern military troops fucking boys in the desert when they were in their entrenched positions. The young men were fucked but the fuckers weren't gay. They said the guy getting fucked was considered the gay one.

It doesn't matter to me what time period or what tradition. If you fuck a kid you are a pedo. If you are a guy and you fuck another guy, even if you aren't attracted to them, you are a form of homosexuality (or gay).


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digitalbeachbum wrote:iwbiek

digitalbeachbum wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:

I would ask myself, what are the odds of a Muslim being a pedo?


a muslim where, in what time period, of which tradition, etc., etc.? never mind the fact that the "islam" of muhammad's time (if people even called it that) was drastically different from that of today. before i decided to focus on south asian religions, islam was a huge interest of mine, and i don't think it enables or encourages pedophilia any more than any other religious tradition in the right context. "islam" is no more homogeneous than "hinduism" or christianity. personally, though i've hardly done exhaustive research on the subject (quite frankly, i don't see the point in such research outside the realm of polemics), i haven't seen any compelling evidence that muhammad was a pedophile in the generally accepted sense, i.e. being sexually attracted to prepubescent children, nor have i seen any evidence at all that he engaged in sexual activity with prepubescent children.

Roughly twenty years ago a friend of mine in special forces said they caught a number of middle eastern military troops fucking boys in the desert when they were in their entrenched positions. The young men were fucked but the fuckers weren't gay. They said the guy getting fucked was considered the gay one.

It doesn't matter to me what time period or what tradition. If you fuck a kid you are a pedo. If you are a guy and you fuck another guy, even if you aren't attracted to them, you are a form of homosexuality (or gay).




your question was not what makes somebody a pedo but how likely a muslim is to be a pedo. my response is still i see no evidence of any greater likelihood among muslims than among adherents of any other religion, and your friend's anecdote is hardly compelling. i don't see any correlation between the behavior of the rapists and their being muslims. it sounds to me like the problem is not islam but a lack of accountability in middle eastern militaries. i'm sure if regulations were to be relaxed, there'd be a lot more boy-fucking, and rape in general, in the US military than there is now. as for the rapists claiming not to be gay, that's a common refrain the world over. how many times have you read about some american guy caught having a homosexual encounter, or raping another guy, or boy, or whatever, and the first thing he does is swear up and down that he "ain't queer"?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Vastet

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Vastet wrote:
I for one will not judge historical figures based on ethics that didn't exist. Any male here would have been fucking their 'child' wife if they'd been living back then instead of now. It's how things were done.

I disagree.

I disagree with your disagreement. Everything I said is simple fact.

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iwbiek wrote:your question

iwbiek wrote:

your question was not what makes somebody a pedo but how likely a muslim is to be a pedo. my response is still i see no evidence of any greater likelihood among muslims than among adherents of any other religion, and your friend's anecdote is hardly compelling. i don't see any correlation between the behavior of the rapists and their being muslims. it sounds to me like the problem is not islam but a lack of accountability in middle eastern militaries. i'm sure if regulations were to be relaxed, there'd be a lot more boy-fucking, and rape in general, in the US military than there is now. as for the rapists claiming not to be gay, that's a common refrain the world over. how many times have you read about some american guy caught having a homosexual encounter, or raping another guy, or boy, or whatever, and the first thing he does is swear up and down that he "ain't queer"?

My point was I don't care what time, place, religion, blah... a pedo is a pedo because of their DNA not their environment. Their environment might restrict them acting out or help in some cases, but it is really the DNA which dictates if a person is going to be homo, hetro, etc

My anecdote is that gay people who are muslim use tradition to fuck little boys because it is a custom among circles. I'm not saying the entire muslim community allows it.

I believe Oz was a good show which represented that the prison system has gays who don't want to admit it in public life, but behind bars their true identity comes out.


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There's a significant

There's a significant difference between pre-pubescence and post-pubescence. No culture I'm aware of has ever condoned sex with pre-pubescent children as a standard. Most people find the idea disgusting, and most people always have.
But post-pubescent children are a completely different story. EVERY culture condoned sex with post-pubescent children at some point in history. The idea that informed consent must exist before sexual relations is extremely new.
The whole idea came about not because people thought sex with post-pubescent children was wrong, but to prevent men from impregnating unwed girls and then abandoning them. Though there have been laws against sex with pre-pubescent children for centuries, said laws did not apply to post-pubescent children, excepting the example given above, until the 20th century.

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digitalbeachbum wrote:My

digitalbeachbum wrote:
My anecdote is that gay people who are muslim use tradition to fuck little boys because it is a custom among circles.



are you sure that tradition is muslim? you do know there are countless traditions at work in the near east, many of which predate islam, right? i mean, do you also have evidence that bosnian, albanian, ugandan, nigerian, somali, moroccan, tunisian, chinese, indonesian, indian, pakistani, iranian, turkish, kazakh, uigur, chechen, georgian, afghani, uzbekh, turkmen, etc., etc., etc. muslims engage in the same tradition? you get my drift. there are a helluva lot more non-arab muslims than there are arab muslims in the world, you know. one of the first muslims i actually met in the flesh was a blonde, blue-eyed macedonian boy who was complaining about his hangover (according to him, it was only necessary to abstain from alcohol within twenty-four hours before going to mosque).

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:digitalbeachbum

iwbiek wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:
My anecdote is that gay people who are muslim use tradition to fuck little boys because it is a custom among circles.

are you sure that tradition is muslim? you do know there are countless traditions at work in the near east, many of which predate islam, right? i mean, do you also have evidence that bosnian, albanian, ugandan, nigerian, somali, moroccan, tunisian, chinese, indonesian, indian, pakistani, iranian, turkish, kazakh, uigur, chechen, georgian, afghani, uzbekh, turkmen, etc., etc., etc. muslims engage in the same tradition? you get my drift. there are a helluva lot more non-arab muslims than there are arab muslims in the world, you know. one of the first muslims i actually met in the flesh was a blonde, blue-eyed macedonian boy who was complaining about his hangover (according to him, it was only necessary to abstain from alcohol within twenty-four hours before going to mosque).

I didn't say it was a Muslim tradition only that Muslims use tradition within their circle of friends to do such acts.

It is no different than pedo's in the catholic church?


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digitalbeachbum wrote:iwbiek

digitalbeachbum wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:
My anecdote is that gay people who are muslim use tradition to fuck little boys because it is a custom among circles.

are you sure that tradition is muslim? you do know there are countless traditions at work in the near east, many of which predate islam, right? i mean, do you also have evidence that bosnian, albanian, ugandan, nigerian, somali, moroccan, tunisian, chinese, indonesian, indian, pakistani, iranian, turkish, kazakh, uigur, chechen, georgian, afghani, uzbekh, turkmen, etc., etc., etc. muslims engage in the same tradition? you get my drift. there are a helluva lot more non-arab muslims than there are arab muslims in the world, you know. one of the first muslims i actually met in the flesh was a blonde, blue-eyed macedonian boy who was complaining about his hangover (according to him, it was only necessary to abstain from alcohol within twenty-four hours before going to mosque).

I didn't say it was a Muslim tradition only that Muslims use tradition within their circle of friends to do such acts.

It is no different than pedo's in the catholic church?




of course it's different. everything that happens among the religions is different, often to much greater degrees than we realize. that's the point i've been trying to hammer home here for years.


i don't know if there is any organized cover-up among the hierarchy of any muslim ulema to protect clergy who molest children. if there is, it's definitely on a smaller scale, as no muslim tradition has a hierarchy as large, as institutionalized, as centralized, and as far-reaching as the catholic church. islam is very decentralized.


even a hierarchy as complex as that of the usuli shi'i ayatollahs, unlike the catholic magisterium, essentially begins at the grassroots level. one becomes an ayatollah not through any top-down ordination but through enough students and scholars flocking to you to ask for your teaching, in combination with earning a succession of higher and higher titles in the shi'i seminaries (hawza), so there isn't nearly so much of the patron-client dynamic going on ("he made me, so i need to cover for him").


besides, it seems to me your story was talking about soldiers, nor clerics, in which case perhaps the stresses of combat were getting to them, coupled with being away from women for so long. the only religious element that i can speculate might have been a factor is that, in some fucked up way, those good, ignorant muslim peasant soldiers might have figured it was better to give it to a boy up the ass than to "pollute himself" with a low prostitute. then again, i doubt it. from what i've heard, whenever a woman doesn't dress "modestly" in the middle east and north africa, and/or goes out without a male escort, men are not shy about trying to solicit her as a prostitute.


incidentally, another common thing that happens among seminary students in iran is the "temporary marriage." a man and woman can obtain a marriage license for a period of a day or two. obviously, this is a cover up for prostitution and/or promiscuity, but it is considered socially acceptable. i'm pretty sure i read that even old khomeini took advantage of that arrangement as a student.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Atheistextremist
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Aisha

iwbiek wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
meh. there's a saying in the islamic world: say whatever you want about god but be damn careful how you talk about the prophet.

I'm too lazy to look it up. What is so fucking special about the child molester?

what is so special about god? anyhow, my source is a BBC documentary about salman rushdie's years in hiding. i can't recall the name of it, but i think it came out within the last 10 years or so.
btw, i really hate to show a lack of atheist solidarity (heh heh) and question one of our favorite petards, but is there any documentary evidence, in the hadith or anywhere else, that muhammad actually had a physical relationship with his child brides? because the prevailing custom was not to consummate before they reached puberty. or is it just a case of muhammad being a pedophile because we want him to have been one?

 

Aisha's testimony on her relationship with Mo was recorded, apparently: Sahih Bukhari 5.234 Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging.  They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.     

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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And there's this...

 

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
meh. there's a saying in the islamic world: say whatever you want about god but be damn careful how you talk about the prophet.

I'm too lazy to look it up. What is so fucking special about the child molester?

what is so special about god? anyhow, my source is a BBC documentary about salman rushdie's years in hiding. i can't recall the name of it, but i think it came out within the last 10 years or so.
btw, i really hate to show a lack of atheist solidarity (heh heh) and question one of our favorite petards, but is there any documentary evidence, in the hadith or anywhere else, that muhammad actually had a physical relationship with his child brides? because the prevailing custom was not to consummate before they reached puberty. or is it just a case of muhammad being a pedophile because we want him to have been one?

 

Aisha's testimony on her relationship with Mo was recorded, apparently: Sahih Bukhari 5.234 Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging.  They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.     

 




well, that is news to me, but as i said, i'm not interested enough in the question to research it thoroughly. still, it is very possible for a girl to enter puberty by nine. obviously, she wouldn't be fully developed, but she could be menstruating and growing breasts. this is unacceptable by western standards, but it still doesn't fit the standard definition of pedophile. of course, this is taking for granted that the saying is authentic.


anyway, my whole point was that non-muslims, religious as well as irreligious, seem very quick to convict muhammad out of hand for something that is very hazily attested to. if the issue here was whether or not muhammad performed some miracle, no doubt those same non-muslims would be crying "insufficient evidence!" but when it comes to something we can malign him for, it seems no source is too suspect, and even a shred of evidence, never mind its reliability, is enough for a conviction.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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"Having her period" ((Ravenous Bakasura of Ignorance))

     Pauline Epistle to the Church in Rome Ch. XIII -- '' . . there is no authority except that which God has established,.''  "Having her period"  ((Ravenous Bakasura of Ignorance))

 

  "Having her period"

iwbiek wrote:
still, it is very possible for a girl to enter puberty by nine. obviously, she wouldn't be fully developed, but could be ^menstruating and . . . 

    That stranglely reminds of a cute but also highly disturbing anecdotal tale  I once heard about a harrowing experience a woman's young daughter in the early on-stages of puberty .. who was  having her first period. She, reportedly, had just fully completed grade 6, and was just then starting Middle school (in the states). Apparently mom dropped the ball and didn't do a very thorough or in-depth job of talking about the changes her body would be going through. Supposedly, It happened during school hours, I know. She started ^menstrual bleeding, on the premises, right in the middle of class. And she "thought she was dying", I heard. She was rushed to the school nurse, who was on vaccation at the time. So, One of the older teachers got her all cleaned up, promptly took her to a local WalGreens to Feminine care isle, to buy maxi pads. Showed her how to use them and reassured her that everything was OK and that she was not dying, (mild chuckle).

 

    Written By: Nikki Bedekar               Follow Link ::  http://www.pamf.org/teen/health/femalehealth/periods/early.html 

                                               
  



     The strange benefits of a misspent youth . . Hey,Check_out_this_cool_blast_from_the past:

    **Brigadoon, a mysterious Scottish village that appears for only one day every hundred years

  

 

      The strange benefits of a misspent youth . .
 


  Pic from   101 Dalmatians: the animated series   Episode take-off on  **Brigadoon

    Dialog  I actually remember from memory . .  "Don't you  love  this place''

   - --  -- -



  Off -  site :: "Ahem" --    ::

 

 

   Edit :: (Edit  --  dropped letter, a typeo  . . dropped  'e'  )