Something For Dana And Teralek

Atheistextremist
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Something For Dana And Teralek

 

Electrical Signatures of Consciousness in the Dying Brain

Aug. 12, 2013 — The "near-death experience" reported by cardiac arrest survivors worldwide may be grounded in science, according to research at the University of Michigan Health System.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130812153553.htm

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


cj
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Fascinating

Well, it is.

That it occurs during cardiac arrest and during asphyxiation - like the pilots who experience NDS at high g's.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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The desire is to know w/ no need to pass into another realm

Re:: The desire is to know w/ no need to pass into another realm


"This study tells us that reduction of oxygen or both oxygen and glucose during cardiac arrest can stimulate brain activity that is characteristic of conscious processing," says Borjigin. "It also provides the first scientific framework for the near-death experiences reported.."


Dallas Holms (an American christian songwriter and artist and performer) wrote and recorded the song titled: "Look For a Window". Its' lyrics state, if I recall: "When God closes a door, look for a window .. Don't stand at the door, there might be a window".


It's an apt song, for the whole NDE 'movement'.; Naturally, There's such popularity to the subject, an interesting sociological development is shaping, with distinct patterns of thoughts and consensus, even a type of Theology is forming because of all the efforts of field researches, logging these experiences. I mentioned this subject a couple of times back in Fonzie's old thread a few months back. Off the top of my head, Many of the popular books I choose not to invest time with, in which I failed to read (not surprisingly), due to the Heavenly encounters, speak of this heightened-sense mentioned. And of a more valid than reality, telling in these events. For all intents and purposes, their experiences are intense, and have the potential to become highly transformative, from the articles and papers, I've read. This that shifts experiencers into what is called a “threshold experience” – one that straddles the boundary between this world and other worlds. Reportedly the hope is to push one past the threshold or boundary of what is known. New Agers, religious believers of various faiths, and parapsychologists all latch on this, a strong evidence of life after death. So, I think it should have broader appeal to everyone, on one level or another. That said, I personally did a simply comparison of the individual accounts. The UFO phenomenon, is helpful as a point of comparison. Or more my personality to check into the comparison "Hells". Unfortunately, Many of the people were afraid to recount these experiences or come forward. I think many of the accounts are highly entertaining but somewhat disappointing in terms of content, they haven't shown to been. Hellish experiences, now they have everything. It's because there are so many accounts, I was afforded the opportunity to utterly by-pass all the heavenly accounts, and focus on the :"dNDE" accounts solely. Like I said, That's the good stuff Smiling I caught wind of apparently, In North America, Jesus is spending a major bulk of His time, giving personal guided tours of the place, so naturally I didn't want to spoil the surprise (tehe), so I never went in for any of that. I don't care how Harley feels, I find that very admirable. To come full circle has a treasure trove daily for me (1Jn 2,23). I am never bored, even months and months without my books, still haven't been.


Serious(-ly) good link, I personally enjoyed, is this URL, I think I PM or emailed a copy to X a while back; I wont have time today or tomorrow to re-read it (but will though):


URL -- http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven


p.s. -- From Journal articles I recall, most of the longitudinal studies for these cardiac cases, indicate their long term survival rate is very very poor.


F i n


cj
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danatemporary wrote: Re::

danatemporary wrote:
Re:: The desire is to know w/ no need to pass into another realm

 

p.s. -- From Journal articles I recall, most of the longitudinal studies for these cardiac cases, indicate their long term survival rate is very very poor.

F i n

 

I read that some medical personnel have "No Code" tattooed prominently - so there will be less of a chance that some well meaning person will attempt to rescue them. Not only is survival rate low, quality of life after is very poor. I have filled out an advance directive for my physician - it includes "No code."

She was surprised and I told her, "I'll be dead. Say good-bye."

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Cher isnt the only one who wishes they could turn back time:

cj wrote:

danatemporary wrote:
Re:: The desire is to know w/ no need to pass into another realm

 

p.s. -- From Journal articles I recall, most of the longitudinal studies for these cardiac cases, indicate their long term survival rate is very very poor.

F i n

 

I read that some medical personnel have "No Code" tattooed prominently - so there will be less of a chance that some well meaning person will attempt to rescue them. Not only is survival rate low, quality of life after is very poor. I have filled out an advance directive for my physician - it includes "No code."

She was surprised and I told her, "I'll be dead. Say good-bye."

 



Most close families don't get around to find out about what the desires of the advanced notices are. Unfortunately, A lady lawyer sat down with my Grandfather, and led him by the hand on some of these issues. He pretty much signed off on everything. Problem was she didn't know my Grandfather like I did and I don't feel she should have been calling the shots like she was with him, my Grandfather. He set this up in his late eighty. There is a big difference between someone in there 60s and 70s and someone over the age of eighty-six. I will be forever haunted throughout my whole life by not doing a much better job of looking out for his best interest. It pains me I didn't do more, allowing some lawyer to control him as she did. It always will pain me in a way I can't express in words, how some of the last words I heard him utter to me was how I would protect him. I don't feel I protected him anywhere near enough. I always treated my Grandfather with respect and never treated him like he was a child. The last sixteen months of his life, he had so declined that was a deeply costly mistake to make, not out of hard feelings or some such. I plainly feel, If I had the experience of having raised children of my own, I might have been more assertive out of love and concern. I lacked that experience, so I never looked upon him as a child and never treated him as such. I never anticipated the decline or need for a role reversal

It dawns on me, If the math isn't adding up . . I have nieces that are my age and a couple that are older. Both Father and Father's father got married late in life, to young wives. What has that to do with NDE, I couldn't say.


cj
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danatemporary wrote:  Most

danatemporary wrote:

 

 

Most close families don't get around to find out about what the desires of the advanced notices are. Unfortunately, A lady lawyer sat down with my Grandfather, and led him by the hand on some of these issues. He pretty much signed off on everything. Problem was she didn't know my Grandfather like I did and I don't feel she should have been calling the shots like she was with him, my Grandfather. He set this up in his late eighty. There is a big difference between someone in there 60s and 70s and someone over the age of eighty-six. I will be forever haunted throughout my whole life by not doing a much better job of looking out for his best interest. It pains me I didn't do more, allowing some lawyer to control him as she did. It always will pain me in a way I can't express in words, how some of the last words I heard him utter to me was how I would protect him. I don't feel I protected him anywhere near enough. I always treated my Grandfather with respect and never treated him like he was a child. The last sixteen months of his life, he had so declined that was a deeply costly mistake to make, not out of hard feelings or some such. I plainly feel, If I had the experience of having raised children of my own, I might have been more assertive out of love and concern. I lacked that experience, so I never looked upon him as a child and never treated him as such. I never anticipated the decline or need for a role reversal

It dawns on me, If the math isn't adding up . . I have nieces that are my age and a couple that are older. Both Father and Father's father got married late in life, to young wives. What has that to do with NDE, I couldn't say.

 

 

We are going through this with a family member. In her mid-80s and no known advance directive and she has some form of dementia. Too late to fill out a new advance directive. The only thing her children remember her ever saying was, "If I'm that bad, just push me in front of a bus." As I have said - many times - this is less than helpful. Most countries do not allow the relatives to push their demented relative over a cliff, under a bus, or off a tall building. Now, we must go through the process of having her legally declared incompetent. It all could have been avoided.

I am filling out mine, getting it witnessed, giving it to my doctor, husband, sons, friends. Designating a trusted care giver if I am unable to express my wishes. A lawyer is not necessary in Oregon. The form is available on line for free. Everyone, check it out in your area. Even if you believe it will not be necessary for many years, do it. And here's hoping your death is quick and as pain free as possible.

Condolences on the death of your grandfather. We all have regrets about the death of a loved one at some point in our lives. My regret is my maternal grandmother. But I learned from her death and I hope to prevent a similar dilemma for my children. Virtual hugs, Dana.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Good link

danatemporary wrote:

Serious(-ly) good link, I personally enjoyed, is this URL, I think I PM or emailed a copy to X a while back; I wont have time today or tomorrow to re-read it (but will though):

URL -- http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

I'm off to a funeral soon for a friend of mine who died of a heart attack and I'm glad that at least his death was fairly sudden.


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danatemporary wrote:I will

danatemporary wrote:
I will be forever haunted throughout my whole life by not doing a much better job of looking out for his best interest. It pains me I didn't do more, allowing some lawyer to control him as she did. It always will pain me in a way I can't express in words, how some of the last words I heard him utter to me was how I would protect him. I don't feel I protected him anywhere near enough. I always treated my Grandfather with respect and never treated him like he was a child. The last sixteen months of his life, he had so declined that was a deeply costly mistake to make, not out of hard feelings or some such. I plainly feel, If I had the experience of having raised children of my own, I might have been more assertive out of love and concern. I lacked that experience, so I never looked upon him as a child and never treated him as such. I never anticipated the decline or need for a role reversal

 

I hate to switch gears here, but I don't believe in free will, so what you did and didn't do was already predetermined.

Maybe in another life/time line/what ever you did more for him and interceded on his behalf, but the fact that you obviously loved and respected him should be enough to quiet your mind.

 

 


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 Well first of all I don't

 Well first of all I don't understand why this topic is called "Something for Dana".

It is difficult to understand Dana's opinion quickly because she writes in blocks of texts, tends to babble and her writing is sometimes boring... 

Second this is an interesting article. I am part of the NDE "movement". For those who know me a bit I did discuss this subject here. A lot of my spiritual ideas are based on NDEs!

There is still a lot of research to be done and many questions to be answered....

Medical literature says that "progression to isoelectricity occurs within 10 to 20 (mean 15) seconds from the onset of cardiac arrest." This study talks about 30s. I don't doubt the study, but it hints that brain physiology from rats may be very different. Still I have seen other studies on humans that point to the same conclusion - there is a spike on brain activity after cardiac arrest. This is all good but instead of answering questions it raises even more questions:

- Why only 20% have an NDE when everyone experiences this brains spike activity?

- It is still more or less unknown when the NDE occurs, if it's before cardiac arrest or after. And how to explain the extent of time these visions take when this spike is very brief. The spike lasts even less than 30 or even 15 seconds. We need more studies to understand and narrow down the conditions that start a core NDE experience. We need to understand the mechanism that triggers them.

- Why naturally induced gamma waves don't seem to make a life changing experience?

An interesting fact is that "gamma waves may be implicated in creating the unity of conscious perception (the binding problem)". Another interesting fact is that brain activity does not come back many minutes to hours after the heart as been restarted.

This study only presents what happens physiologically, it is not proof that NDEs are not transcendental experiences. I am very looking forward to the AWARE study being conducted by MDs and supported by the Horizon Foundation.

There is another reason why I have this spirituality and believe NDEs may be a transcendental phenomenon. Basically I want to believe. It is very depressing to accept something as wonderful as awareness and existence being so pointless if all that awaits conscious experience is oblivion. There is a natural wonder when I hear some of the NDEs which for me have the ability to make sense and purpose when no one else can. Not religion or science.

I'm far from being the only one guilty of this. I've seen countless scientists not endorsing theories because they don't like them. Everyone beliefs in whatever they choose to.

It is always important that people like me speak out so that no one censors science. Science has been censored by calling "pseudo-rationality" to some postulations made by scientists one scientific magazines (eg. "Research should be concentrated on the effort to explain scientifically the occurrence and content of NDE. Research should be focused on certain specific elements of NDE, such as out-of-body experiences and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory and background of transcendence should be included as a part of an explanatory framework for these experiences" )

Everything has to be on the table of hypothesis if we ever want to find out the truth. And we have to keep open minded. Even if we sympathize with one theory we need to find ways to prove it wrong if possible.

Very recently I have finally understood what is behind the measurement problem in physics, the double slit experience and Shrodinger's cat. Now I understand those who keep saying that if you look at quantum theory and don't get a "mental breakdown" you didn't understand it. This will undoubtedly shape my beliefs on everything, because this measurement problem is at the core of my perceived reality.

EDIT: Oh and I have to say that for me the biggest evidence that NDEs are transcendental are the depth of the experience and it's consistence.

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"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies