Intelligent Design?
Offline When it comes to the Evolution v Creationism debate, I have wondered for a while now... what sort of intelligent designer would make us in such a manner that we have to do so many bodily functions... Such as eating... excrementing waste.
For example there are animals out there that can produce vitamin C... we cannot, and must get our daily vitamin C from food. If we were designed intelligently, what sort of sense does it make to give some (un?)intelligently designed creatures this ability, and then keep it from the Pièce de résistance so to speak. Or going further to plants... they get most of what they need from the Sun, and then other random nutrients in water that can even be given via a mist. (Aeroponics) Why can't we, as intelligently designed creatures utilize the same process as plants when it comes to aeroponics? .-. It doesn't make sense.
"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad
"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."
- Login to post comments
That is true. But that does not mean, that he is responsible for your wrong decisions. Who makes the decision , is you. And if you can choose between doing the right thing, and the wrong thing, and you choose to do the wrong thing, you cannot blame anyone else, than you alone, for the wrong decision made.
This fits in nicely. Presuming one even has the mental capacity to weigh the options and make decisions (in the first place). I am being entirely playfully humorous; Dana will have her fun.
Title -- Re :: Long live our great King who is no longer an Ox
Was Reminded Of ...
The unbearably treacherous Pagan King who was forewarned and told in a dream, it would come to pass; he was to go 'insane' and act like an animal for seven years.
The Book Of Daniel Ch. 4 --
Nebuchadnezzar was walking along, and said within himself: “Is not this the great Babylon what I have built, as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?” And, Immediately what "had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox [boanthropy].." "His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird"
"You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth" and gives them to anyone he wishes. At the end of that time, when the seven years had past, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored
This Boanthropic ( deep psychosis ) sufferer then, after coming to his right mind, their King says : Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever"
His dominion is an eternal dominion;
his kingdom endures.
All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”
During that time my (Nebuchadnezzar's) sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. Now, I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble"
Definition -- Boanthropy is a psychological disorder in which a human being believes himself to be a Bovine.
Luke 8 Luke 8:35b - .. clothed and in his right mind; and they were afraid
Side-Bar To Image :
Image was striking(ly) reminiscent of the representations of Akkado-Babylonian lamassu and Sedu found throughout the AncientNearEast. Suggesting the creation of a separate layer to all this.
. . .
p.p.s. -- Long live our great King who is no longer an Ox
Yes, it does. It means He is at least partly responsible for all my wrong (and right) decisions. If God made the choice to give humans free will, then the consequences of that choice are on Him.
And this analogy really ties into other apologetics as well. I frequently hear Christians say that God is so much smarter than us that we are like children and he's a parent; we can't see the meaning of his decisions. In order for that argument to hold any water, the person has to admit that our own choices are ultimately meaningless when put in the context of being watched over by an all seeing entity.
God is the only one responsible, according to 90+% of Christian apologetics.
You're the one quoting out of context and misrepresenting scientists who believe the opposite of what you argue. You're the ONLY one to blame.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Didnt know this. Please point out where it says so.
God has given us the hability to make choices. That freedom brings risks. We can indeed choose the wrong things to do or to believe. But God has given us also his word, the bible, which is like a compass, that shows us the right direction to choose, to go, to believe. If we prefere to go into another direction than God showed us is the right one, who is to blame ?
Straightaway this nice, simple argument you had that everything in the world is 'evidence of God's existence' becomes - God only designed bits of it - nasty bits are man because man has free will. But if man has free will in a universe designed by God how does man have free will? Presumably it's not a free will that is determined because then it wouldn't be free. If not determined it operates randomly in which case you've admitted that randomness is an operating principle in the universe and that therefore things which appear to be designed are in fact the result of mere chance.
Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens
jeeeesus, gimme a chance to fuck that, in all its glory...
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
And what evidence has God given to back up the above statement?
God. Not only did He choose to give people the ability to prefer the wrong direction, He also chose to provide insufficient evidence to convince everyone to follow the right one.
Because the book is so ahead of its time, that nobody has been able to properly understand it yet. Clearly, the issue is not that the book contains hundreds, maybe thousands of internal contradictions.
Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.
@ Angelo, If Jesus perfectly followed God's law, and Man's law, why is it impossible for man to do so? When people speak of the incorrect prophecies that Jesus foretold of ( an alliance between Assyria, Israel and Egypt, which never happened, and can't because Assyria doesn't exist anymore) the first defence given is that Jesus was human and therefore suffered from human faults... He also didn't follow his own advice: " Turn the other cheek" and then he goes and makes a big commotion in a church because there are money changers there.
"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves,"
King James Version 2000
That doesn't look to me like he was turning the other cheek, nor loving his/thy enemy. That looks to me like he got pissed off.
"Render unto God what is God's and render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." Welp, to me that looks like God is having trouble creating wealth for his churches to do good, why don't churches win lotteries so that their congregations aren't stripped of their hard-earned money?
*haha I realize we're way off topic now*
Also if God created the universe in 7 days... why... why are we the only known source of life, wouldn't it be great if we met another civilization that also had God's word? To me that would be infallible proof of God's existence... though that does pose another question to the God argument.
If there was life on another planet, would God also send his son to that planet? Would Jesus take the form of the creatures living on that planet, or would he be human? Would he go from planet to planet dying and being "reborn" etc... with the same flaws in his story, would he get better at it over time? Would he still have the same adventures? Would his story go blank for twenty years?
"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad
"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."
you should read the bible.
http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp120.htm
I don't know of any false prophecy of Jesus.
One thing has nothing to do with the other. Jesus did not suffer directly a agression in this case. And he had a purpose of acting as he did. You should study apologetics.
I believe there is only one life hosting plantet on the whole universe. Ours. Which is a sign how precious we are in the eyes of our creator.
So in other words your god is spectacularly inefficient. More than 99% of his creation is unreachable and inhospitable to the life he created. In other words more than 99% of his creation is absolutely useless and pointless. Why worship a god which is so obviously stupid?
It's going to be great fun when we find evidence of life elsewhere in the universe and all these literally stupid theists have to jump through even more hoops to preach their lies.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Straightaway this nice, simple argument you had that everything in the world is 'evidence of God's existence' becomes - God only designed bits of it - nasty bits are man because man has free will. But if man has free will in a universe designed by God how does man have free will? Presumably it's not a free will that is determined because then it wouldn't be free. If not determined it operates randomly in which case you've admitted that randomness is an operating principle in the universe and that therefore things which appear to be designed are in fact the result of mere chance.
What’s the answer to my question then big boy? Your argument is in tatters.
Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens
you are mixing up things. The creation of the universe is one thing, which can be by chance, or design. Free will of humans is a completely other matter, which has nothing to do with the other one.
Suppose that as an adult I leave a loaded 44 Magnum handgun within easy access to my five year old child. Nevertheless I carefully explain to the child that he should not play with the hand gun because it is not a toy and serious death or injury can result. Then I leave the room and secretly watch through the doorway as my child, despite my clear instructions, later picks up the hand gun and proceeds to accidentally blow his little head off.
In the state of Texas where I live I will still be held legally culpable for the death of my child, even though my dead child is actually the one who disobeyed me and pulled the trigger. The free will decision of my child resulted in his own death yet I will still be required to stand before a judge in a court of law and very likely be punished as a result. Why do you think that is ?
According to you God created us free, which presumably includes our ability to do evil, so you’re saying that we are freer than God, who, being perfect, is capable of only doing good? Surely the idea that ordinary human beings should be freer than God himself seems to be both theologically and philosophically unacceptable? How do you explain this?
Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens
You know what apologetics are, right?
You cannot atribute responsability in the same manner to a child, as to a adult.
i would like you to point toward a external apologetic website, where is says so. Of course i know, what apologetics are.
How can you believe the universe can be created by chance if you believe in intelligent design? The universe can’t have intelligent design in it if its all been created by chance.
If its created by design then everything in it is designed and its creator is the designer, responsible for evil as well as good, pain as well as pleasure, darkness as well as light, ugliness as well as beauty. So which is it?
Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens
I could not give a better reply, than W.L.Craig :
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-god-able-to-do-evil
Exactly. I'm sure you will refuse to see how this applies even more to an omniscient being, who knowing the consequences even before the action, therefore bears infinitely more responsibility than any limited human ever could.
Foreknowledge of disobedience only serves to increase culpability as God allowed ( insert negative act of created being ) to proceed even knowing the tragic outcome as well as possessing the ability to prevent it.
All acts of free will / disobedience by God's created beings ultimately circle back to God's own free will. The free will of God acts as the ultimate "Cause" while the free will of his created beings is simply the "Effect".
Unlike the free will of human beings, God's free will is all encompassing since his choices are coupled to his divine attributes which give him unique advantages that only serve to make him responsible for EVERYTHING, because as you know, ultimately no one can resist the will of God.
Mankind ...good or bad...only exists because of God's will. He is not simply a helpless bystander who lacks responsibility or is powerless to intervene. He is the author of the whole muddled mess because his divine attributes logically confer upon him the ultimate responsibility. Man, despite his limited free will, is a mere shadow by comparison.
Here are some of the top highlights, showing different facets of people likening God to the parent and us to the child:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101218182441AA5bK3u
http://www.ldolphin.org/Father.html
https://www.lerucher.org/Content/pdf/Knowing%20God%20as%20Loving%20Father.pdf
http://abraham.lib.virginia.edu/sjsr/issues/volume2/number1/sjsr02-01-e02.html
http://www.redbubble.com/people/cheriedirksen/writing/5660480-the-human-parent-analogy-getting-behind-the-mind-of-god
http://claycentercovenant.com/2011/03/god-parent-analogy/
There is also one that popped up of someone finding problems with that analogy:
http://thinkjustdoit.blogspot.com/2012/04/phi-3000-god-parent-analogy.html
That being said, I'm seriously surprised that you've never heard a Christian argue that God is like a parent with our best interests at heart and we are like children who can't comprehend what the parent is thinking.
Then all humans are innocent, as we are but children compared to a god.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Well if Craig is the best you can come up with, then your argument is very weak indeed. My dog could come up with a better reply than him.
Edit: By the way, are you ever going to address any of my replies to you? Or can I just take your silence as a concession that even you admit you were pwned? Such a shame, I do enjoy a theist who is capable of a semi-intelligent response, I was hoping you were one. Your god might send you to hell with me if you just give up so easily.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
following contains the answer :
http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html
"...God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23)."
"Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God."
"In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners"
"God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by “free choices” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences)."
Reading things like the above makes me so glad I'm not a Christian...
God's glory manifests in Tay Sachs? Awesome. This explains a lot.
The link by W.L. Craig doesn’t explain where evil comes from and why God doesn’t eliminate it. For an atheist, evil is a fact that has to be acknowledged and challenged but it is unthinkable for a religious person to make allowances for widespread evil, given the world has been created by such an all powerful, loving God. What are your views, given that W.L. Craig failed on this point?
Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens
Neither was that the question.
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-allow-evil.html
"Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained..."
In other words, the fall and subsequent introduction of sin into the world was actually God's will, hence it was foreordained. Therefore it was impossible for Adam and Eve to deviate from what God had already decided upon. Is that what Christians consider free will ?
"..our freedom in making choices is not violated..."
Adam and Eve could not have possibly chosen to go against what God had already "foreordained" for them since God "foreordained" that they would both be the means by which the Fall came about. God's plan violated their free will because A&E were nothing more than puppets following a script. Again, is that what Christians consider free will ? You must be joking.
"...because our free choices are the means by which God's will is carried out."
I'm sure you still don't see the incredible irony.
We've found what we believe to be signs of life under the ice of Saturn's moon: Titan. Mirco-organisms, mind you, but life nonetheless.
Life on Titan
"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad
"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."
That's not quite evidence of life though. Not enough for my satisfaction anyway.
Even if we find actual evidence of life on Mars it'll be decades before we can honestly say that such life didn't originate on Earth.
Sadly we have a ways to wait still.
I think that telescopes will be necessary. Any life found in our solar system could have originated on Earth. But if we detect an atmosphere that can only be explained by the presence of life, we'll have all we really need to prove that life is everywhere.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
"Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise." Proverbs 6.6
No, this is the question and I'm still waiting for your answer. Incidentally, stop sending me links, if you want to talk, how about putting in a bit of effort.
Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens
It's kind of funny that you mention that it could have originated on Earth, one of the theories out there is that life on Earth came from Mars
Here is another article from MIT, again, it's all speculation. (Then again most of our creation theories are, as far as life goes.)
P.S. Thanks for showing me how to make links nice and tidy like that.
"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad
"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."
There exist different views in christian theology in regard of gods sovereignity, and human free will, namely Calvinism, Arminianism, and Molinism. Google if it matters to you.
Or, if they want a head start, they can say those organisms, like the fossils on our planet, were placed there by God/Satan/The flood/??? because of <insert mysterious purpose>.
I've heard that hypothesis. I, however, am a big fan of Occam's razor. It wasn't necessary for life to have appeared on Mars first, so I don't subscribe to the idea at this time.
I think it much more likely that life first arose here, or in both places simultaneously.
Happy to help.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Like Robin Williams said, just look at the female reproductive system. How intelligent is it build an amusement park right next to a solid waste treatment facility?
"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."
@ Robby, obviously the fossils were placed there so that there would be evidence that didn't point to God, so that people would not believe, so that God could send them to Hel
@Vastet, I don't believe the hypothesis stated that life was on Mars FIRST, they could have developed in tandem, Earth's... uhm... what's the word, well... Earth could not sustain life, for a reasonable amount of time. At least that's what I took from that.
@Marty, first I'd like to say I love that quote in your signature.
Second, I suppose it would make sense, if you were to put some sort of barrier between the two, so that they wouldn't touch.. .-.
"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad
"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."
Yes, apparently Mars had abundant oxygen a couple billion years before Earth, which lends weight to the hypothesis.
Love those rovers.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Which brings me back... do you think that we could really start terraforming Mars now, with extremophile plants and organisms? ( I can't really think of a plant though, I presume they exist.) China is going to start a television show (reality TV) with real life settlers on Mars, sent two at a time, in the 2020's.
@Angelo, what do you think of that? Lol, people living on a different PLANET, one that has apparently gone without God's divine hand.
Oh and on Morality:
"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad
"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."
Terraforming Mars with Chinese labor. Worked for the railroads.
Other than that what Mars needs to start terraforming is an atmosphere measured in the billions of tons. And a few trillion tons of water wouldn't hurt. So we go to the Oort cloud and some how dislodge comets so that they collide with Mars. Once there is liquid water on the surface it will be vapor in the new atmosphere and it will start holding heat from the sun. A nice run away greenhouse should be balmy at that distance. Anyway, once we have that all kinds of green stuff can start releasing oxygen and may ten million years later there will be enough to breathe. That or get Schwarzenegger to turn on the machine again.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Technically, giving Mars an atmosphere would be pointless at this time. The dynamo must be restored in its core first, else any atmosphere would simply leak away into space about as fast as it was generated.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
@Vastet, Are you saying that Mars isn't rotating fast enough? I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get across.
Oh, and I was wrong, most of the applicants were Chinese, but it is a Dutch project.
http://mars-one.com/en/about-mars-one/about-mars-one
"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad
"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."
The planet's rotation is not what generates a magnetic field, or rather, not that alone, but it's relational spin to the iron core.. The magnetosphere is what protects us from solar winds that would wipe out our atmosphere. It is the leading theory that Mars' loss of the magnetosphere is what caused its atmosphere to dissipate. Recreating the atmosphere would be pointless without a magnetosphere to protect it.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
So... if we were to create an artificial magnetosphere, through some nondescript means, then reatmosphere Mars, it would eventually become habitable?
"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad
"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."