Were the Jews in Egypt as the bible says?

Jimenezj
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Were the Jews in Egypt as the bible says?

Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?


zarathustra
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That would depend on the

That would depend on the evidence.


 


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Back so soon

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

What do you think the OT says?

And what correlation with the real world do you have to offer as evidence for it.

 

 

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There is no archeological

There is no archeological evidence of a mass exodus. But still besides the point. Just as the sun was not a god, neither the Jewish invisible Yahweh, nor the magic baby Jesus were real. 

The sun was not a god. Thor does not make lightening. There is no such thing as virgin births. Humans do not survive rigor mortis. No one is getting 72 virgins in a fictional afterlife. Humans make up gods, and that is why these legends and myths exist.

 

We can see Superman flying around New York city in movies, but no sane person thinks such a comic book character exists. It does not matter even if there were Jews in Egypt. There was no 7 plauges and there is no such thing as invisible friends by any name, past or present, polytheist or monotheist.

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 It is my understanding

 It is my understanding that over the last few years evidence has been found that slavery in Egypt was less prolific than previously thought, for example it is now believed that the pyramids were not built using slave labor. Also the evidence suggests that the Semetic peoples who were in Egypt were most likely the Hyksos who conquered northern Egypt a few centuries earlier before the Egyptians took it back. Other people on here probably keep more up to date with the latest research than me. I would suggest reading a few archaeological journals if you are really interested in the subject. I'm not going to waste my time finding any sources because I doubt you honestly care. 

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And here

And here we go with ANOTHER thread of pointless questions, followed by a bunch of answers, then followed by a theist assertion (for the Bible says so) then MORE answers, then another assertion that God did it, then more answers and the whole thing can get about 100-120 posts.

I'll just go ahead and set up the popcorn stand and the alcoholic beverages.

Let the wild rompus start.

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Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

trust in the history of the Hebrews as to be it factual or not. To one-yes, to another-no. Then- does it add itself together to make sense, or- does one merely determine the book to be nonsense. What works for you. Why would a people writer their history to be a fiction. Who are they trying to fool, if any. Why would they want to fool anyone. Would the Egyptians record them in their history, if not , why not. If they would , why would they.  Does a people write their history for the benefit of others or for themselves.   Smiling

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Old Seer wrote:  Does a

Old Seer wrote:

  Does a people write their history for the benefit of others or for themselves.   Smiling

I actually like that question. Strangely enough.

If I had to pick, I would say that while some of the historians write it from the perspective of the former (wanting to preserve events). I would say that 99% of it is probably from the standpoint of the latter.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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As per the bible, all

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.


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latincanuck wrote:As per the

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

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Old Seer wrote:latincanuck

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.


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Beyond Saving wrote: It is

Beyond Saving wrote:

 It is my understanding that over the last few years evidence has been found that slavery in Egypt was less prolific than previously thought, for example it is now believed that the pyramids were not built using slave labor. Also the evidence suggests that the Semetic peoples who were in Egypt were most likely the Hyksos who conquered northern Egypt a few centuries earlier before the Egyptians took it back. Other people on here probably keep more up to date with the latest research than me. I would suggest reading a few archaeological journals if you are really interested in the subject. I'm not going to waste my time finding any sources because I doubt you honestly care. 

Slavery is not the issue, magical claims are. You know, like allowing the pay gap to explode and pretend that it is sustainable. Slavery today is about convincing people to vote against their own self interest.

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You're very likely right.

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

Or dang close. But then again we counted 1,300,000 at one time and had to throw that out. If I recall they were in Egypt 400 years as Semites. Let's look at the number 40. (what we're doing is what we did a long time ago, and generally goes no where. The ancient mind is what's needed and no one has that today) 40="purpose, Probation, Waters without boundaries.  One could go with- there was a purpose for them being in the desert--or They were in a condition of being probate or on probation, namely a time of trial or purification, or Waters is mentality meaning they had a probation or time to make mental changes. In the flood of Noah Waters without bounds means  (as we take it) a mentality unrestricted or no control. Then again, the number 40 attached to years wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with 40 years of our calender. It can mean time or times which can relate to no specified time, in, as I was gone for a time. So, 40 years in the desert may not be years but rather relate to the conditions of "why" they were in the desert.  If we're going to go strictly a Western look see, it goes nowhere and turns out to be something to fantastic to believe. We had this very same problem.

We bypassed archeology on the grounds that there wasn't enough to deal with and wasn't helping on the original problem of why Creation isn't sound physics. The reasoning was that at sometime something is going to be found when it can be understood (As Arche Smurf pointed out) that the area is so over used and destroyed so many times it would be hard to find forensic evidence. Jericho for instance is thought to be the oldest city on the planet and goes 8 Jericho's deep with little to show for 7000 years of habitation. New cities were being built over old ones.  

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Jimenezj wrote:Were the Jews

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

No


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Agree

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

No

 

there's no evidence this mythical tale actually took place. The archaeology argues against it. The pyramids have large villages adjacent to them in which the builders lived while they worked. By all accounts they were well paid professionals who enjoyed a high standard of living. Given the quality and longevity of the constructions it's obvious these structures weren't just piled up by a bunch of women and children. The builders were highly skilled and meticulous in every detail.

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Jimenezj wrote:Were the Jews

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

 

   Actually, the Jews were never in Egypt and it was illegal aliens from Mexico that built the pyramids...

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Let me add...

Atheistextremist wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

No

 

there's no evidence this mythical tale actually took place. The archaeology argues against it. The pyramids have large villages adjacent to them in which the builders lived while they worked. By all accounts they were well paid professionals who enjoyed a high standard of living. Given the quality and longevity of the constructions it's obvious these structures weren't just piled up by a bunch of women and children. The builders were highly skilled and meticulous in every detail.

 

 

                      There were also clear social conventions about the class structure;  NO slave would have been allowed to touch a stone of the eternal home of the God-King.  Further to that, the bible claims the Hebrew slaves were building a city [not a Pyramid] yet this to woud have been unlikely. Any city would have had temples,  and no slave could or would be allowed to defile a sacred house. 

 

 

                      There were slaves in Egypt at the time, they were of the privet in-house clean-up type,  not public-project slaves and more importantly; Not cooks or food preperation slaves.  Would you trust a possibly disgruntled slave to prepare YOUR  food????  I wouldn't.

 

 

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Old Seer wrote:Jimenezj

Old Seer wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

trust in the history of the Hebrews as to be it factual or not. To one-yes, to another-no. Then- does it add itself together to make sense, or- does one merely determine the book to be nonsense. What works for you. Why would a people writer their history to be a fiction. Who are they trying to fool, if any. Why would they want to fool anyone. Would the Egyptians record them in their history, if not , why not. If they would , why would they.  Does a people write their history for the benefit of others or for themselves.   Smiling

It is not about what floats your boat. You start even before you get to any text, from the naked assertion that a non material being is a possibilit. We don't care if they were slaves or not. The evidence is saying that the Hebrews were never enslaved as per the description of that comic book. But it would not matter even if they were. Snakes don't talk and humans do not pop out of dirt.

It is a book of myth like every other religious texts of all other religions. Peppering a work of fiction with real people or real places does not make the fiction real, otherwise the original book Peter Pan mentioning London, would make little boys able to fly as depicted in that book.

Slavery of anyone in any point of history be it your tradition or any other does not make the superstitions of any culture valid.

 

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The term "slave"

Jeffrick wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

No

 

there's no evidence this mythical tale actually took place. The archaeology argues against it. The pyramids have large villages adjacent to them in which the builders lived while they worked. By all accounts they were well paid professionals who enjoyed a high standard of living. Given the quality and longevity of the constructions it's obvious these structures weren't just piled up by a bunch of women and children. The builders were highly skilled and meticulous in every detail.

 

 

                      There were also clear social conventions about the class structure;  NO slave would have been allowed to touch a stone of the eternal home of the God-King.  Further to that, the bible claims the Hebrew slaves were building a city [not a Pyramid] yet this to woud have been unlikely. Any city would have had temples,  and no slave could or would be allowed to defile a sacred house. 

 

 

                      There were slaves in Egypt at the time, they were of the privet in-house clean-up type,  not public-project slaves and more importantly; Not cooks or food preperation slaves.  Would you trust a possibly disgruntled slave to prepare YOUR  food????  I wouldn't.

 

 

in Hebrew (as it is used in some cases) can denote subserviancy, not necessarily a slave per se. It can mean merely that they were made lessers within the State.

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All the evidence

Atheistextremist wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

No

 

there's no evidence this mythical tale actually took place. The archaeology argues against it. The pyramids have large villages adjacent to them in which the builders lived while they worked. By all accounts they were well paid professionals who enjoyed a high standard of living. Given the quality and longevity of the constructions it's obvious these structures weren't just piled up by a bunch of women and children. The builders were highly skilled and meticulous in every detail.

May not be in as yet. Archeological finds are continuing to change insights. IE- now they say Neandrethal didn't die out but were absorbed into other peoples. They extracted DNA from their bones and find their genetic  markers in all of us. But-- Consider all the claims since their being found. When it comes to archeology we've learned to stand pat. No telling whose going to find what in time.

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I'm not sure but

Atheistextremist wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

No

 

there's no evidence this mythical tale actually took place. The archaeology argues against it. The pyramids have large villages adjacent to them in which the builders lived while they worked. By all accounts they were well paid professionals who enjoyed a high standard of living. Given the quality and longevity of the constructions it's obvious these structures weren't just piled up by a bunch of women and children. The builders were highly skilled and meticulous in every detail.

I think the pyramids were existing before the time Hebrews went into Egypt.

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Old Seer wrote:Jeffrick

Old Seer wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

No

 

there's no evidence this mythical tale actually took place. The archaeology argues against it. The pyramids have large villages adjacent to them in which the builders lived while they worked. By all accounts they were well paid professionals who enjoyed a high standard of living. Given the quality and longevity of the constructions it's obvious these structures weren't just piled up by a bunch of women and children. The builders were highly skilled and meticulous in every detail.

 

 

                      There were also clear social conventions about the class structure;  NO slave would have been allowed to touch a stone of the eternal home of the God-King.  Further to that, the bible claims the Hebrew slaves were building a city [not a Pyramid] yet this to woud have been unlikely. Any city would have had temples,  and no slave could or would be allowed to defile a sacred house. 

 

 

                      There were slaves in Egypt at the time, they were of the privet in-house clean-up type,  not public-project slaves and more importantly; Not cooks or food preperation slaves.  Would you trust a possibly disgruntled slave to prepare YOUR  food????  I wouldn't.

 

 

in Hebrew (as it is used in some cases) can denote subserviancy, not necessarily a slave per se. It can mean merely that they were made lessers within the State.

Keep watering it down. That is how many of us here became atheists.

Many of us moved the goal posts so much that we realized how stupid comic books are.

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The best way to handle this

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

as I see it is go to the book (be it true or false). The very objective of their subservancey was because their population was getting to large and the fear was they would outnumber the Egyptians over time. If I recall the passage---they were beginning to outnumber the Egyptians. How many Egyptians would one suppose there would have been at that time. IF, the Semites numbered 600,000 as they say then there would have had to be about 800,000 for the 600,000 to be a threat to the State. I have to agree --that wouldn't be very likely. Unless there's something about the Egyptians we need to know. I can't picture 800,000 Egyptians during that time period. As I pointed out- we had troubles with these numbers also, and also as we can see-it went no where. All it did was detract from what our main interests were. But again, this is where Moses may enter the picture. The Pharaoh ordered every male child at the age of X to be killed, so there could have been quite a number of Semites as compared to Egyptians.  Smiling

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


latincanuck
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Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

as I see it is go to the book (be it true or false). The very objective of their subservancey was because their population was getting to large and the fear was they would outnumber the Egyptians over time. If I recall the passage---they were beginning to outnumber the Egyptians. How many Egyptians would one suppose there would have been at that time. IF, the Semites numbered 600,000 as they say then there would have had to be about 800,000 for the 600,000 to be a threat to the State. I have to agree --that wouldn't be very likely. Unless there's something about the Egyptians we need to know. I can't picture 800,000 Egyptians during that time period. As I pointed out- we had troubles with these numbers also, and also as we can see-it went no where. All it did was detract from what our main interests were. But again, this is where Moses may enter the picture. The Pharaoh ordered every male child at the age of X to be killed, so there could have been quite a number of Semites as compared to Egyptians.  Smiling

 

The problem still lies is that there is no evidence whatsoever of jews where ever slaves, especially in tune of 1.2 million, the egyptians left no records,  no pottery or any archeological evidence that they where in egypt at all, This loss of workforce again would have devastated egypt period, Egypt entire population at the time, estimated at 1.5 million, you are talking about a mass exdous of half of that population that left no trail no evidence no nothing in the sinai peninsula, plus no evidence that there was almost 3 million people in egypt at the time. This story never happened at all, if anything it could have been the caanites but again, not in a mass exodus like the bible/torah state. This story simply put is not true, nothing backs up this claim, neither egytian records, archaeological records or anything.


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Old Seer wrote:latincanuck

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

as I see it is go to the book (be it true or false). The very objective of their subservancey was because their population was getting to large and the fear was they would outnumber the Egyptians over time. If I recall the passage---they were beginning to outnumber the Egyptians. How many Egyptians would one suppose there would have been at that time. IF, the Semites numbered 600,000 as they say then there would have had to be about 800,000 for the 600,000 to be a threat to the State. I have to agree --that wouldn't be very likely. Unless there's something about the Egyptians we need to know. I can't picture 800,000 Egyptians during that time period. As I pointed out- we had troubles with these numbers also, and also as we can see-it went no where. All it did was detract from what our main interests were. But again, this is where Moses may enter the picture. The Pharaoh ordered every male child at the age of X to be killed, so there could have been quite a number of Semites as compared to Egyptians.  Smiling

 

Did you not read any of our responses?

Your interpretation of what you think happened  does not make magic real. Invisible friends are not real. Human beings do not pop out of dirt. Moses did not part the Red sea. He didn't magically get handed stone tablets. ON TOP of being no evidence of slavery of Hebrews.

You can twist it all you want but it is still a myth and still does not make invisible beings real. Not yours, not any. The bible is a book of myth, just like any other religious writings and images in human history.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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As I see it

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

as I see it is go to the book (be it true or false). The very objective of their subservancey was because their population was getting to large and the fear was they would outnumber the Egyptians over time. If I recall the passage---they were beginning to outnumber the Egyptians. How many Egyptians would one suppose there would have been at that time. IF, the Semites numbered 600,000 as they say then there would have had to be about 800,000 for the 600,000 to be a threat to the State. I have to agree --that wouldn't be very likely. Unless there's something about the Egyptians we need to know. I can't picture 800,000 Egyptians during that time period. As I pointed out- we had troubles with these numbers also, and also as we can see-it went no where. All it did was detract from what our main interests were. But again, this is where Moses may enter the picture. The Pharaoh ordered every male child at the age of X to be killed, so there could have been quite a number of Semites as compared to Egyptians.  Smiling

 

The problem still lies is that there is no evidence whatsoever of jews where ever slaves, especially in tune of 1.2 million, the egyptians left no records,  no pottery or any archeological evidence that they where in egypt at all, This loss of workforce again would have devastated egypt period, Egypt entire population at the time, estimated at 1.5 million, you are talking about a mass exdous of half of that population that left no trail no evidence no nothing in the sinai peninsula, plus no evidence that there was almost 3 million people in egypt at the time. This story never happened at all, if anything it could have been the caanites but again, not in a mass exodus like the bible/torah state. This story simply put is not true, nothing backs up this claim, neither egytian records, archaeological records or anything.

there's problems with the Hebrew numbering system. The western system can't be used. I was looking around the web for the Hebrew alphanumerics and found differences in meanings from what we had originally had back in the 80s. IE, back then there was one, I think it was #5 that also meant "ape or palm of hand". It's not the same that I could find today. We also applied this idea to the tower of Babel. How many people were existing at that time in that region to build such a structure----same problem. So- how does one use their numbering system. If you see an Ape they say---hey, look over there, there's a #5. To go outside you go through the #4 (door) It's not likely there were 600,000 Hebrews trailing through the desert.  Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

as I see it is go to the book (be it true or false). The very objective of their subservancey was because their population was getting to large and the fear was they would outnumber the Egyptians over time. If I recall the passage---they were beginning to outnumber the Egyptians. How many Egyptians would one suppose there would have been at that time. IF, the Semites numbered 600,000 as they say then there would have had to be about 800,000 for the 600,000 to be a threat to the State. I have to agree --that wouldn't be very likely. Unless there's something about the Egyptians we need to know. I can't picture 800,000 Egyptians during that time period. As I pointed out- we had troubles with these numbers also, and also as we can see-it went no where. All it did was detract from what our main interests were. But again, this is where Moses may enter the picture. The Pharaoh ordered every male child at the age of X to be killed, so there could have been quite a number of Semites as compared to Egyptians.  Smiling

 

The problem still lies is that there is no evidence whatsoever of jews where ever slaves, especially in tune of 1.2 million, the egyptians left no records,  no pottery or any archeological evidence that they where in egypt at all, This loss of workforce again would have devastated egypt period, Egypt entire population at the time, estimated at 1.5 million, you are talking about a mass exdous of half of that population that left no trail no evidence no nothing in the sinai peninsula, plus no evidence that there was almost 3 million people in egypt at the time. This story never happened at all, if anything it could have been the caanites but again, not in a mass exodus like the bible/torah state. This story simply put is not true, nothing backs up this claim, neither egytian records, archaeological records or anything.

there's problems with the Hebrew numbering system. The western system can't be used. I was looking around the web for the Hebrew alphanumerics and found differences in meanings from what we had originally had back in the 80s. IE, back then there was one, I think it was #5 that also meant "ape or palm of hand". It's not the same that I could find today. We also applied this idea to the tower of Babel. How many people were existing at that time in that region to build such a structure----same problem. So- how does one use their numbering system. If you see an Ape they say---hey, look over there, there's a #5. To go outside you go through the #4 (door) It's not likely there were 600,000 Hebrews trailing through the desert.  Smiling

I find 3 different dialects of the Hebrew Alphanumeric system on the web but not our original from the 80s. I don't know where we acquired the original but apparently it's would be the oldest. I'm persuaded to think that this is the problem. For instance-it's unlikely the the Semites in Egypt were there for 400 years. That implies there could have been a great number of them which makes the 600,000 look good. BUT, does 400 really mean 400. The number 400 is the last number in Hebrew Alphabet meaning, Cross (I take it as sword, as in Greek "Exoid" in some applications), Sign, Eternity, End of existence. From this one can see a real problem. If 400 isn't used as a number but a meaning instead,how does one interpret 400. It's easy to see what problems can be encountered. Archeology is another problem all it's own. Logically there should be a spoon (so to speak, everyone in history lost a spoon) out there somewhere to find. By time of the Hebrews went into Egypt everyone in the middle East went everywhere, so if anything were found how to know who's the source. Moses being exiled from Egypt and settling with a mountain Semite tribe (supposedly), marrying one the women leads one to wonder if the desert the Hebrews wanders through is the same as what he settled in or near. If so, he knew the lay of the land and places best to go. Using google maps I looked over Mt Sinai and it doesn't look likely 1,000,000 could be there in all the valleys. How about---they took turns, yup, that explains it   Smiling Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


latincanuck
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Old Seer wrote:latincanuck

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

as I see it is go to the book (be it true or false). The very objective of their subservancey was because their population was getting to large and the fear was they would outnumber the Egyptians over time. If I recall the passage---they were beginning to outnumber the Egyptians. How many Egyptians would one suppose there would have been at that time. IF, the Semites numbered 600,000 as they say then there would have had to be about 800,000 for the 600,000 to be a threat to the State. I have to agree --that wouldn't be very likely. Unless there's something about the Egyptians we need to know. I can't picture 800,000 Egyptians during that time period. As I pointed out- we had troubles with these numbers also, and also as we can see-it went no where. All it did was detract from what our main interests were. But again, this is where Moses may enter the picture. The Pharaoh ordered every male child at the age of X to be killed, so there could have been quite a number of Semites as compared to Egyptians.  Smiling

 

The problem still lies is that there is no evidence whatsoever of jews where ever slaves, especially in tune of 1.2 million, the egyptians left no records,  no pottery or any archeological evidence that they where in egypt at all, This loss of workforce again would have devastated egypt period, Egypt entire population at the time, estimated at 1.5 million, you are talking about a mass exdous of half of that population that left no trail no evidence no nothing in the sinai peninsula, plus no evidence that there was almost 3 million people in egypt at the time. This story never happened at all, if anything it could have been the caanites but again, not in a mass exodus like the bible/torah state. This story simply put is not true, nothing backs up this claim, neither egytian records, archaeological records or anything.

there's problems with the Hebrew numbering system. The western system can't be used. I was looking around the web for the Hebrew alphanumerics and found differences in meanings from what we had originally had back in the 80s. IE, back then there was one, I think it was #5 that also meant "ape or palm of hand". It's not the same that I could find today. We also applied this idea to the tower of Babel. How many people were existing at that time in that region to build such a structure----same problem. So- how does one use their numbering system. If you see an Ape they say---hey, look over there, there's a #5. To go outside you go through the #4 (door) It's not likely there were 600,000 Hebrews trailing through the desert.  Smiling

So you are saying the jews don't know their own book? They say it is 600,000 as well, according to a few rabbis I know (they don't believe exodus numbers either) so yeah.....you have to come up with a better.


Old Seer
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Definetly

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

as I see it is go to the book (be it true or false). The very objective of their subservancey was because their population was getting to large and the fear was they would outnumber the Egyptians over time. If I recall the passage---they were beginning to outnumber the Egyptians. How many Egyptians would one suppose there would have been at that time. IF, the Semites numbered 600,000 as they say then there would have had to be about 800,000 for the 600,000 to be a threat to the State. I have to agree --that wouldn't be very likely. Unless there's something about the Egyptians we need to know. I can't picture 800,000 Egyptians during that time period. As I pointed out- we had troubles with these numbers also, and also as we can see-it went no where. All it did was detract from what our main interests were. But again, this is where Moses may enter the picture. The Pharaoh ordered every male child at the age of X to be killed, so there could have been quite a number of Semites as compared to Egyptians.  Smiling

 

The problem still lies is that there is no evidence whatsoever of jews where ever slaves, especially in tune of 1.2 million, the egyptians left no records,  no pottery or any archeological evidence that they where in egypt at all, This loss of workforce again would have devastated egypt period, Egypt entire population at the time, estimated at 1.5 million, you are talking about a mass exdous of half of that population that left no trail no evidence no nothing in the sinai peninsula, plus no evidence that there was almost 3 million people in egypt at the time. This story never happened at all, if anything it could have been the caanites but again, not in a mass exodus like the bible/torah state. This story simply put is not true, nothing backs up this claim, neither egytian records, archaeological records or anything.

there's problems with the Hebrew numbering system. The western system can't be used. I was looking around the web for the Hebrew alphanumerics and found differences in meanings from what we had originally had back in the 80s. IE, back then there was one, I think it was #5 that also meant "ape or palm of hand". It's not the same that I could find today. We also applied this idea to the tower of Babel. How many people were existing at that time in that region to build such a structure----same problem. So- how does one use their numbering system. If you see an Ape they say---hey, look over there, there's a #5. To go outside you go through the #4 (door) It's not likely there were 600,000 Hebrews trailing through the desert.  Smiling

So you are saying the jews don't know their own book? They say it is 600,000 as well, according to a few rabbis I know (they don't believe exodus numbers either) so yeah.....you have to come up with a better.

I included that in one of  my posts somewhere. That's on accounts of the "fall" that they went through, where-by they lost the meaning of their original religion. That's what a Messiah was all about. The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah. Here's why JC is the Messiah. (I hope I get this rightly explained) First off, it is evident the Apostles are seeing the book a bit differently then the San Hedran.

The original Hebrew religion is based on Adam, and the specifications within he/they was made. The kind of person Adam was is precisely what their original religion was. That is to say--their religion is Creation, as it is Creation that forms Adam. Adam is formed from the "dust" of the ground, meaning, Animal mind, as being of no particular belief and as dust in the wind---no specific direction of belief. Creation give direction and understanding (let there be light--enlightenment, not sun light) to a group of persons existing. From that they become Adam, as knowledgable. (the physical is already present-creation is a mind changing event) The people before they became Adam were as any other on the planet.

 The rudiments of Adam is what they fell away from, and there-by returned to what they were before, animalistic. (Dust tho are and to dust tho hath returned) Now then--in order to get back to that which they lost--someone must come and show the way back. This is why the Apostles say JC is Adam the 2nd. In order for them to return to the likes (image) of Adam a Messiah is needed. That's all JC is about---getting his floks back to square one. Now that's simple ain't it. Now look what the Euros did with this. They did nothing more then use the book for their own ends.

Do the Jews know this today---nope. Their idea of Messiah is a man to come to free them from all their enemies. Tyhat's not going to get them back to square one is it. Their religion today has similarities but not it. It' seema thay have a God the same as all others---of course--they fell away from the original which was Adam.

What makes Adam different. Creation is what makes a specific personage by the dividing of one's personal characters of which are divided into two mental directions---the animal mind and the human mind. If one uses their acute ability of intellect and sirt then out one can make a choice, to let off being animalistic and go to Human only. When that's done-you're Adam.

From this info one can see that the Jews don't know themselves from Adam. What's religiouslysimilar for them today is the invisible side. Their belief system requires they make no images or statues as a representation of the Creator, because one cannot draw or make a replica of "the self". If you were to draw a picture of your person what would it look like. You can draw a "representation", a stick man, but that represents your body. Their religion (originally) is that the body is not the person. Today the Jews are as superficial as anyone else. So they aren't of their original religion, and they can't get back to it---unless someone shows them where they originated. That's the fall, a falling away from being like Adam, their ancestor.

 That means that Christianity is nothing more then---Adam, samo samo--but with improvements, an proper and better understanding of the concept of good and evil.

There,s no churches to build, no meeting to go to. no praying (praying to Adam won't help a thing) , no clergymen, no signing of crosses or the likes, no special religious dinners, no holy water or anything else, no wailing walls----religion is gone.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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So,

be aware that you can be an "Adam" and an Atheist. There is no free floating/ranging God type in the book. Smiling Smiling Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


latincanuck
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Old Seer wrote:latincanuck

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

as I see it is go to the book (be it true or false). The very objective of their subservancey was because their population was getting to large and the fear was they would outnumber the Egyptians over time. If I recall the passage---they were beginning to outnumber the Egyptians. How many Egyptians would one suppose there would have been at that time. IF, the Semites numbered 600,000 as they say then there would have had to be about 800,000 for the 600,000 to be a threat to the State. I have to agree --that wouldn't be very likely. Unless there's something about the Egyptians we need to know. I can't picture 800,000 Egyptians during that time period. As I pointed out- we had troubles with these numbers also, and also as we can see-it went no where. All it did was detract from what our main interests were. But again, this is where Moses may enter the picture. The Pharaoh ordered every male child at the age of X to be killed, so there could have been quite a number of Semites as compared to Egyptians.  Smiling

 

The problem still lies is that there is no evidence whatsoever of jews where ever slaves, especially in tune of 1.2 million, the egyptians left no records,  no pottery or any archeological evidence that they where in egypt at all, This loss of workforce again would have devastated egypt period, Egypt entire population at the time, estimated at 1.5 million, you are talking about a mass exdous of half of that population that left no trail no evidence no nothing in the sinai peninsula, plus no evidence that there was almost 3 million people in egypt at the time. This story never happened at all, if anything it could have been the caanites but again, not in a mass exodus like the bible/torah state. This story simply put is not true, nothing backs up this claim, neither egytian records, archaeological records or anything.

there's problems with the Hebrew numbering system. The western system can't be used. I was looking around the web for the Hebrew alphanumerics and found differences in meanings from what we had originally had back in the 80s. IE, back then there was one, I think it was #5 that also meant "ape or palm of hand". It's not the same that I could find today. We also applied this idea to the tower of Babel. How many people were existing at that time in that region to build such a structure----same problem. So- how does one use their numbering system. If you see an Ape they say---hey, look over there, there's a #5. To go outside you go through the #4 (door) It's not likely there were 600,000 Hebrews trailing through the desert.  Smiling

So you are saying the jews don't know their own book? They say it is 600,000 as well, according to a few rabbis I know (they don't believe exodus numbers either) so yeah.....you have to come up with a better.

I included that in one of  my posts somewhere. That's on accounts of the "fall" that they went through, where-by they lost the meaning of their original religion. That's what a Messiah was all about. The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah. Here's why JC is the Messiah. (I hope I get this rightly explained) First off, it is evident the Apostles are seeing the book a bit differently then the San Hedran.

The original Hebrew religion is based on Adam, and the specifications within he/they was made. The kind of person Adam was is precisely what their original religion was. That is to say--their religion is Creation, as it is Creation that forms Adam. Adam is formed from the "dust" of the ground, meaning, Animal mind, as being of no particular belief and as dust in the wind---no specific direction of belief. Creation give direction and understanding (let there be light--enlightenment, not sun light) to a group of persons existing. From that they become Adam, as knowledgable. (the physical is already present-creation is a mind changing event) The people before they became Adam were as any other on the planet.

 The rudiments of Adam is what they fell away from, and there-by returned to what they were before, animalistic. (Dust tho are and to dust tho hath returned) Now then--in order to get back to that which they lost--someone must come and show the way back. This is why the Apostles say JC is Adam the 2nd. In order for them to return to the likes (image) of Adam a Messiah is needed. That's all JC is about---getting his floks back to square one. Now that's simple ain't it. Now look what the Euros did with this. They did nothing more then use the book for their own ends.

Do the Jews know this today---nope. Their idea of Messiah is a man to come to free them from all their enemies. Tyhat's not going to get them back to square one is it. Their religion today has similarities but not it. It' seema thay have a God the same as all others---of course--they fell away from the original which was Adam.

What makes Adam different. Creation is what makes a specific personage by the dividing of one's personal characters of which are divided into two mental directions---the animal mind and the human mind. If one uses their acute ability of intellect and sirt then out one can make a choice, to let off being animalistic and go to Human only. When that's done-you're Adam.

From this info one can see that the Jews don't know themselves from Adam. What's religiouslysimilar for them today is the invisible side. Their belief system requires they make no images or statues as a representation of the Creator, because one cannot draw or make a replica of "the self". If you were to draw a picture of your person what would it look like. You can draw a "representation", a stick man, but that represents your body. Their religion (originally) is that the body is not the person. Today the Jews are as superficial as anyone else. So they aren't of their original religion, and they can't get back to it---unless someone shows them where they originated. That's the fall, a falling away from being like Adam, their ancestor.

 That means that Christianity is nothing more then---Adam, samo samo--but with improvements, an proper and better understanding of the concept of good and evil.

There,s no churches to build, no meeting to go to. no praying (praying to Adam won't help a thing) , no clergymen, no signing of crosses or the likes, no special religious dinners, no holy water or anything else, no wailing walls----religion is gone.

 

I haven't seen this much ignoring reality, evidence and twisting of the bible/torah/language since the catholic church tried to apologize for abusing children.


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Old seer

The first Adam was the fallen one, which became carnal and sin. The Imperfect being , from were death came into the world.

The second Adam was Jesus Christ , called Emanuel or God is with us.
YHWH in the flesh or God became man and therefore a perfect being with no sin. The source of life and the healer of the first Adam. Who came into the world to repair the damage done by the 1st Adam.

The Sanhedrin could not understand this because of their ignorance in prophecy .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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I say you are

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

As per the bible, all 600,000 men (not including women, a modest estimate at half the men, 300,000, and children, another modest estimate of half of the women, so 150,000 for a total of 1,050,000) no I do not believe that this happened, there is no evidence that a million jews wandered the desert for 40 years which would have been 400,000 less than the total estimated population of Egypt at the time and a loss of such a work force (which oddly enough could not take on a mere 20,000 egyptians that were after them) and the egyptians left no record of this massive loss of population or work force? No other writings of any other local population speaking of such a massive wandering society. Nor any evidence that 1 million were in the desert and left no waste, no evidence of camps, nothing. Now could say 60 jews wandered sure, but not 600,000 jewish men.

One should be careful when dicyphering middle eastern documents. We had a lot of trouble with this at first. 1000,s can mean two things (if I remember off hand), 1000's can be equal to an unspecified number. 1000,s of 1000,s can relate to eternity, or specifically does. Then again we also had to learn there is quite a difference between how western civilizations and Semites think and write things--or even keep track of events or tallies. Also--it was mostly prophets dictating to scribes that was very different from what the religious body in the temple were expressing things. a prophet had no interest in embellishment for example, but the temple keepers did. Prophets set themselves outside the community and remained rather disconnected from society,,and weren't leaders or followers for the most part. History gets fudged mostly by those who have something to hide or brag about, or mislead from facts. Most temple priest wern't do gooders and had a bunch to hide from time to time. The history written can depend upon "who" did the dictating. Prophets had no gain or loss in the works.

The most important of it is--the book isn't English literature and can't be used as such. The Hebrerw format must be used for correct interpretation.

Were the Israelites ever in Egypt. I would say so, and aren't listed in Egyptian history because they were lessors, and lessors weren't normally important in a people's history. The Semites went into Egypt for the same reason many others did, and the others aren't listed either. A famine caused many to go to Egypt for survival, because Egypt was supported by the Nile river and always had grain in abundance. Many were other Semite Tribes.

It could be that the translation from Semite to English is flawed. The 600,000 could very well be 60,000. Also--in the book livestock may also (at times) be counted in with the people as there are examples (don't remember where) of the livestock being counted as "souls", or in the total of "the" souls. Then again, the Semite religions aren't what westerners comprehend properly. The tendency is to make the Semites as westerner---that doesn't work. At times in middle eastern slaves and servants are equated the same. It appeares to us as though they considered animal life as souls the same as themselves.  Smiling

Even still 60,000 is still a huge amount of the workforce gone, and 60,000 people wandering in the desert for 40 years and leaving no evidence whatsoever that they did that is still very improbable. Still using Hebrew eleps which is what is used for 1000's in regards to the census. Numbers 1 census shows us a total of 603,550 even using hebrew, which is just the son's of israel......from a month up, forget daughters and wives. which leaves us a huge amount of people in a time which would have rivaled egypt in sheer numbers, yet there is no evidence that this was actually true. Then the census in Numbers 26 gives us a total of 601,730, of males able to go to war, which lets say starts at at least 15 (could have been low as 12). which still leaves a huge number of women and children not counted for, which still puts it at a population that rivaled the entire egyptian population. this would have been a major loss of work force for the egyptians, it would have destroyed them economically.

as I see it is go to the book (be it true or false). The very objective of their subservancey was because their population was getting to large and the fear was they would outnumber the Egyptians over time. If I recall the passage---they were beginning to outnumber the Egyptians. How many Egyptians would one suppose there would have been at that time. IF, the Semites numbered 600,000 as they say then there would have had to be about 800,000 for the 600,000 to be a threat to the State. I have to agree --that wouldn't be very likely. Unless there's something about the Egyptians we need to know. I can't picture 800,000 Egyptians during that time period. As I pointed out- we had troubles with these numbers also, and also as we can see-it went no where. All it did was detract from what our main interests were. But again, this is where Moses may enter the picture. The Pharaoh ordered every male child at the age of X to be killed, so there could have been quite a number of Semites as compared to Egyptians.  Smiling

 

The problem still lies is that there is no evidence whatsoever of jews where ever slaves, especially in tune of 1.2 million, the egyptians left no records,  no pottery or any archeological evidence that they where in egypt at all, This loss of workforce again would have devastated egypt period, Egypt entire population at the time, estimated at 1.5 million, you are talking about a mass exdous of half of that population that left no trail no evidence no nothing in the sinai peninsula, plus no evidence that there was almost 3 million people in egypt at the time. This story never happened at all, if anything it could have been the caanites but again, not in a mass exodus like the bible/torah state. This story simply put is not true, nothing backs up this claim, neither egytian records, archaeological records or anything.

there's problems with the Hebrew numbering system. The western system can't be used. I was looking around the web for the Hebrew alphanumerics and found differences in meanings from what we had originally had back in the 80s. IE, back then there was one, I think it was #5 that also meant "ape or palm of hand". It's not the same that I could find today. We also applied this idea to the tower of Babel. How many people were existing at that time in that region to build such a structure----same problem. So- how does one use their numbering system. If you see an Ape they say---hey, look over there, there's a #5. To go outside you go through the #4 (door) It's not likely there were 600,000 Hebrews trailing through the desert.  Smiling

So you are saying the jews don't know their own book? They say it is 600,000 as well, according to a few rabbis I know (they don't believe exodus numbers either) so yeah.....you have to come up with a better.

I included that in one of  my posts somewhere. That's on accounts of the "fall" that they went through, where-by they lost the meaning of their original religion. That's what a Messiah was all about. The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah. Here's why JC is the Messiah. (I hope I get this rightly explained) First off, it is evident the Apostles are seeing the book a bit differently then the San Hedran.

The original Hebrew religion is based on Adam, and the specifications within he/they was made. The kind of person Adam was is precisely what their original religion was. That is to say--their religion is Creation, as it is Creation that forms Adam. Adam is formed from the "dust" of the ground, meaning, Animal mind, as being of no particular belief and as dust in the wind---no specific direction of belief. Creation give direction and understanding (let there be light--enlightenment, not sun light) to a group of persons existing. From that they become Adam, as knowledgable. (the physical is already present-creation is a mind changing event) The people before they became Adam were as any other on the planet.

 The rudiments of Adam is what they fell away from, and there-by returned to what they were before, animalistic. (Dust tho are and to dust tho hath returned) Now then--in order to get back to that which they lost--someone must come and show the way back. This is why the Apostles say JC is Adam the 2nd. In order for them to return to the likes (image) of Adam a Messiah is needed. That's all JC is about---getting his floks back to square one. Now that's simple ain't it. Now look what the Euros did with this. They did nothing more then use the book for their own ends.

Do the Jews know this today---nope. Their idea of Messiah is a man to come to free them from all their enemies. Tyhat's not going to get them back to square one is it. Their religion today has similarities but not it. It' seema thay have a God the same as all others---of course--they fell away from the original which was Adam.

What makes Adam different. Creation is what makes a specific personage by the dividing of one's personal characters of which are divided into two mental directions---the animal mind and the human mind. If one uses their acute ability of intellect and sirt then out one can make a choice, to let off being animalistic and go to Human only. When that's done-you're Adam.

From this info one can see that the Jews don't know themselves from Adam. What's religiouslysimilar for them today is the invisible side. Their belief system requires they make no images or statues as a representation of the Creator, because one cannot draw or make a replica of "the self". If you were to draw a picture of your person what would it look like. You can draw a "representation", a stick man, but that represents your body. Their religion (originally) is that the body is not the person. Today the Jews are as superficial as anyone else. So they aren't of their original religion, and they can't get back to it---unless someone shows them where they originated. That's the fall, a falling away from being like Adam, their ancestor.

 That means that Christianity is nothing more then---Adam, samo samo--but with improvements, an proper and better understanding of the concept of good and evil.

There,s no churches to build, no meeting to go to. no praying (praying to Adam won't help a thing) , no clergymen, no signing of crosses or the likes, no special religious dinners, no holy water or anything else, no wailing walls----religion is gone.

 

I haven't seen this much ignoring reality, evidence and twisting of the bible/torah/language since the catholic church tried to apologize for abusing children.

influenced by the Euro version and ideas. Nothing is twisted, I merely caution that what they say the book is, isn't. As a matter of thought, you aren't of any different mentality then the Pope. If he is a predator and you also what difference is there between you. You are still living within his idea of life. Now, be understanding, If it wasn't for all that previous evil in the world you and I wouldn't be here. It was those times that caused the pathways for you great grand parents to merge, any other pathway and today,s people wouldn't have been born, someone else would be. Hatred of religion or no, it is what caused you to be here. If their twisted world that created you is what you ignorantly go by, how can you know what is twisted and what isn't. You still are a product of the twisted middle ages-are you not, and then at what point did you change it. You say there's no God but yet you changed nothing-so, what is the difference is there be one or not. Can you explain on what grounds you are any different then those who caused the mess, and a what did you change of yourself to make that difference. Atheism is not going to change a thing. What do you propose if anything that should be done to make a different world. Simply saying and believing there no  "God" isn't going to do it. How do you differ from those that say there is. Now then. if you didn't change anything of yourself or don't know what to change, why are you complaining about the rest of the world---when you can't make a contribution to a change. So, can you explain how you escaped from the twisted world that created you, and how you untwisted, and what was twisted, and how you recognized it was twisted to begin with. OK, explain all of this, as to what makes you different from those that claim to be religious, and that you say their god doesn't exist, of which we agree. Can you explain how the "no God" concept will make people different or cause a difference in the world. If you could, would you return to those times and remove all that evil and eliminate yourself from future existence for the good of future generations.

Here's another "twisted" possibility. The Semites easily assimilated into other peoples. One reason could be there's no evidence of them being there could be that their assimilation inadvertently hides them in the Egyptian culture. There wouldn't likely be any evidence in the desert of their exodus-----because they wouldn't have any Hebrew stuff, they would have left with Egyptian stuff. Anything found from there exodus then would be Egyptian. The Semites while in Egypt were commoners, Commoners weren't put on walls of  history. I don't recall any Egyptian commoners of importance on any walls either --right. Commoners on walls were depicted as workers, servants. or solders. Could it be that some of those servants could have been Semites. We put such things in the "speculation" category, not as fact. You'll notice in my posts on this subject I didn't attempt to establish "fact".

How about your Archeology. Does your,s prove they weren't there, nope. Lack of evidence proves nothing + or - .  If you all want to stick your foot in your mouth now---go ahead. I can assure you--you do not know tomorrow. You would be smart to say there is no Archeological evidence "as yet" found.  In the mean time--if you can state for a fact that the book is all myth (without conclusive evidence) then you have to twist things to meet your own perspectives. Go for it.   Smiling

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How about your Archeology. Does your,s prove they weren't there, nope. Lack of evidence proves nothing + or - .  If you all want to stick your foot in your mouth now---go ahead. I can assure you--you do not know tomorrow. You would be smart to say there is no Archeological evidence "as yet" found.  In the mean time--if you can state for a fact that the book is all myth (without conclusive evidence) then you have to twist things to meet your own perspectives. Go for it.  

A dirty martini with a twist , excellent !

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:How about

Jimenezj wrote:
How about your Archeology. Does your,s prove they weren't there, nope. Lack of evidence proves nothing + or - .  If you all want to stick your foot in your mouth now---go ahead. I can assure you--you do not know tomorrow. You would be smart to say there is no Archeological evidence "as yet" found.  In the mean time--if you can state for a fact that the book is all myth (without conclusive evidence) then you have to twist things to meet your own perspectives. Go for it.   A dirty martini with a twist , excellent !

So if your bartender hands you an empty martini glass then demands payment are you going to pay?

You: "Hey, there is no drink here"

Bartender: "There was, you must have drank it. $5 please" (it's happy hour)

You: "Get your supervisor"

Supervisor: "What seems to be the problem sir?"

You: "Your bartender is trying to charge me for a drink I never got. Look, the glass is completely dry, there is no evidence there was a martini in here at all."

Supervisor: "Well sir, you don't have any evidence to prove that the martini wasn't there. $5 please."

 

Lack of evidence is evidence that something didn't happen when you are in a position where you have a level of confidence that there should be evidence, you know what the evidence would look like, you looked where the evidence should be, had the means to find the evidence and could not find the evidence.

In the martini example, one would expect that if a dirty martini was recently in the glass with a twist that the glass would still be moist, there would be remnants of an olive, there would be a toothpick or skewer and perhaps a lemon peel. Since none of that evidence exists, it would be rational to conclude that the lack of evidence for the drinks existence is evidence that the drink never existed.

With the example of a mass exodus where we know the approximate dates it supposedly took place, the approximate location and the approximate number of people who were supposedly wandering, we know where to look and what to look for. Since no one has found anything yet, it becomes increasingly likely that the event never happened.  

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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The first evidence you have to deal with

Beyond Saving wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
How about your Archeology. Does your,s prove they weren't there, nope. Lack of evidence proves nothing + or - .  If you all want to stick your foot in your mouth now---go ahead. I can assure you--you do not know tomorrow. You would be smart to say there is no Archeological evidence "as yet" found.  In the mean time--if you can state for a fact that the book is all myth (without conclusive evidence) then you have to twist things to meet your own perspectives. Go for it.   A dirty martini with a twist , excellent !

So if your bartender hands you an empty martini glass then demands payment are you going to pay?

You: "Hey, there is no drink here"

Bartender: "There was, you must have drank it. $5 please" (it's happy hour)

You: "Get your supervisor"

Supervisor: "What seems to be the problem sir?"

You: "Your bartender is trying to charge me for a drink I never got. Look, the glass is completely dry, there is no evidence there was a martini in here at all."

Supervisor: "Well sir, you don't have any evidence to prove that the martini wasn't there. $5 please."

 

Lack of evidence is evidence that something didn't happen when you are in a position where you have a level of confidence that there should be evidence, you know what the evidence would look like, you looked where the evidence should be, had the means to find the evidence and could not find the evidence.

In the martini example, one would expect that if a dirty martini was recently in the glass with a twist that the glass would still be moist, there would be remnants of an olive, there would be a toothpick or skewer and perhaps a lemon peel. Since none of that evidence exists, it would be rational to conclude that the lack of evidence for the drinks existence is evidence that the drink never existed.

With the example of a mass exodus where we know the approximate dates it supposedly took place, the approximate location and the approximate number of people who were supposedly wandering, we know where to look and what to look for. Since no one has found anything yet, it becomes increasingly likely that the event never happened.  

 

The book exists, as a history written by some of those it applies to. It is a document, a document is a "fact". (ask a lawyer) Am I to assume that the Jews of today have no valid history. The existence of the book is "a fact" (considering the Dead Sea Scrolls) From there where can one go. Troy was a myth until they found the city, simple case. I'm relating to how we look at things. It would be a mistake (in our way of thinking) to conclude something didn't exist merely because lack of evidence. Why would we assume the book to be a myth because of not understanding it. Archeology hasn't in our understanding to be highly reliable. How much has Archeology changed what was believed to be facts since 1900AD---almost all of it. Even evolutionary evidence has been changed quite a bit since then, but mostly for the better.

 Were the Hebrews ever in Egypt---The Smurfs say yes, because there's no reason to dispute their history. For them to write a false history doesn't add up. For what purpose would they have to do it. Lacking any evidence + or - we have to take their word for it and go from there. Do we say it's totally true and without mistake, no. Next is- If they didn't get all true and without the mistake, what are the mistakes and what isn't true. What we found is---huge mistakes and misinterpretations made by Europeans. Then it turns out we can't believe the Europeans, and this is where you get you understanding of the book. Am I to assume then, that you think the Euros made no misinterpretations or mistakes, when we know very well they did. Their ideas serves the maintainance of their domination over their people. In this case we opted to go with the Semite over the Euros. Can you explain why you stay with the Euro interpretaions as facts of Christianity, when the scholars of today still can,t understand it. And, if it is mere myth why do they even bother, and they are in the higher seats of learning. Am I to assume then that the scholars are so stupid that they pursue nonsense, and they have a degree in it, we think so.

So, considering that we, the Smurfers agree that there is no free ranging/floating God puts us in the Atheist category doesn't it. So why don't we say we're Atheists. We're definitely not Theists. Maybe we know things you don't know, or care to know.

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latincanuck
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Old Seer wrote:The book

Old Seer wrote:

The book exists, as a history written by some of those it applies to. It is a document, a document is a "fact". (ask a lawyer) Am I to assume that the Jews of today have no valid history. The existence of the book is "a fact" (considering the Dead Sea Scrolls) From there where can one go. Troy was a myth until they found the city, simple case. I'm relating to how we look at things. It would be a mistake (in our way of thinking) to conclude something didn't exist merely because lack of evidence. Why would we assume the book to be a myth because of not understanding it. Archeology hasn't in our understanding to be highly reliable. How much has Archeology changed what was believed to be facts since 1900AD---almost all of it. Even evolutionary evidence has been changed quite a bit since then, but mostly for the better.

The book exists is a fact. That the history written in it does not mean the history is accurate, factual or truthful in any way or form, on the contrary, the evidence all points to it being wrong in many aspects, from creation to the flood, from the exodus to the killing of the first born. This not a document of facts, it is not a document in any way or form (i asked a lawyer, my sister). It is a book of mythology, of stories, of some historical characters, but it is not a document of fact. The city of Troy exist, achilles did not exist, nor the nymphs or the greek gods. It is not from misunderstanding but the lack of facts and evidence and of course reality. Most of this history it has it wrong in many ways. Most of archaeology has changed so completely? Please back up that claim.

Quote:

 Were the Hebrews ever in Egypt---The Smurfs say yes, because there's no reason to dispute their history. For them to write a false history doesn't add up. For what purpose would they have to do it. Lacking any evidence + or - we have to take their word for it and go from there. Do we say it's totally true and without mistake, no. Next is- If they didn't get all true and without the mistake, what are the mistakes and what isn't true. What we found is---huge mistakes and misinterpretations made by Europeans. Then it turns out we can't believe the Europeans, and this is where you get you understanding of the book. Am I to assume then, that you think the Euros made no misinterpretations or mistakes, when we know very well they did. Their ideas serves the maintainance of their domination over their people. In this case we opted to go with the Semite over the Euros. Can you explain why you stay with the Euro interpretions as facts of Christianity, when the scholars of today still can,t understand it. And, if it is mere myth why do they even bother, and they are in the higher seats of learning. Am I to assume then that the scholars are so stupid that they pursue nonsense, and they have a degree in it, we think so.

So, considering that we, the Smurfers agree that there is no free ranging/floating God puts us in the Atheist category doesn't it. So why don't we say we're Atheists. We're definitely not Theists. Maybe we know things you don't know, or care to know.

No the jews where never in egypt as slaves, the egyptian documents nor the archaelogy back up that claim, nor is there any evidence that jews at almost 1.4 millon of them wandering the desert for 40 years. No other nation in that area back up the claims of the jews that 1.4 million of them wandered the desert. They would have taken over any town, village or city, as they were almost the same population as ALL of egypt.


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A document is a fact in itself

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

The book exists, as a history written by some of those it applies to. It is a document, a document is a "fact". (ask a lawyer) Am I to assume that the Jews of today have no valid history. The existence of the book is "a fact" (considering the Dead Sea Scrolls) From there where can one go. Troy was a myth until they found the city, simple case. I'm relating to how we look at things. It would be a mistake (in our way of thinking) to conclude something didn't exist merely because lack of evidence. Why would we assume the book to be a myth because of not understanding it. Archeology hasn't in our understanding to be highly reliable. How much has Archeology changed what was believed to be facts since 1900AD---almost all of it. Even evolutionary evidence has been changed quite a bit since then, but mostly for the better.

The book exists is a fact. That the history written in it does not mean the history is accurate, factual or truthful in any way or form, on the contrary, the evidence all points to it being wrong in many aspects, from creation to the flood, from the exodus to the killing of the first born. This not a document of facts, it is not a document in any way or form (i asked a lawyer, my sister). It is a book of mythology, of stories, of some historical characters, but it is not a document of fact. The city of Troy exist, achilles did not exist, nor the nymphs or the greek gods. It is not from misunderstanding but the lack of facts and evidence and of course reality. Most of this history it has it wrong in many ways. Most of archaeology has changed so completely? Please back up that claim.

Quote:

 Were the Hebrews ever in Egypt---The Smurfs say yes, because there's no reason to dispute their history. For them to write a false history doesn't add up. For what purpose would they have to do it. Lacking any evidence + or - we have to take their word for it and go from there. Do we say it's totally true and without mistake, no. Next is- If they didn't get all true and without the mistake, what are the mistakes and what isn't true. What we found is---huge mistakes and misinterpretations made by Europeans. Then it turns out we can't believe the Europeans, and this is where you get you understanding of the book. Am I to assume then, that you think the Euros made no misinterpretations or mistakes, when we know very well they did. Their ideas serves the maintainance of their domination over their people. In this case we opted to go with the Semite over the Euros. Can you explain why you stay with the Euro interpretions as facts of Christianity, when the scholars of today still can,t understand it. And, if it is mere myth why do they even bother, and they are in the higher seats of learning. Am I to assume then that the scholars are so stupid that they pursue nonsense, and they have a degree in it, we think so.

So, considering that we, the Smurfers agree that there is no free ranging/floating God puts us in the Atheist category doesn't it. So why don't we say we're Atheists. We're definitely not Theists. Maybe we know things you don't know, or care to know.

No the jews where never in egypt as slaves, the egyptian documents nor the archaelogy back up that claim, nor is there any evidence that jews at almost 1.4 millon of them wandering the desert for 40 years. No other nation in that area back up the claims of the jews that 1.4 million of them wandered the desert. They would have taken over any town, village or city, as they were almost the same population as ALL of egypt.

What's within a document needn't be true or false--it is still an evidence. Agreed. I didn't present the contents of the document (bible) as facts. We side with the Semites over the Euros. In any court of law a document is a fact, but what's on the document can be contested. (As per Lawyer Smurf). Every material object is a fact. No material facts have been presented to show you to be correct. You have a claim or a statement or an insight. You have no possible way under the circumstances to claim being correct. We don't claim to be correct, and make no argument of, is or isn't correct. We find no reason to doubt the Hebrew story. 

If you go over the OT you'll find that--taking over towns and areas for resources was normal routine. I also explained that 40 years according to their original numeric alphabet may not mean forty--it may represent a word or have a conjuctional meaning. You may not be understanding my posts as intended. I also pointed out that this is a problem when understanding the book on it's material references and merits. Wishing the book to be wrong doesn't make it wrong. You'll have to be patient as we are for future findings. Why aren't the Jews still writing myths today if they are myth writers. As long as we cannot correctly understand their wording system we can make no claims---plus or minus. We don't have the facts.  As long as there is no material evidence we still can't make positive determinations. To us the Semite did better then the Euro.

 

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Jimenezj wrote:The first

Jimenezj wrote:
The first Adam was the fallen one, which became carnal and sin. The Imperfect being , from were death came into the world. The second Adam was Jesus Christ , called Emanuel or God is with us. YHWH in the flesh or God became man and therefore a perfect being with no sin. The source of life and the healer of the first Adam. Who came into the world to repair the damage done by the 1st Adam. The Sanhedrin could not understand this because of their ignorance in prophecy .

We don't see where sin came into the world at the fall of Adam. It came into the world of the Hebrew lineage. The book isn't dealing with the entire planet. On the first count it's strictly Semite. Europeans aren't descendents of Adam, only middle easterners are. The Adamites were formed from a group of African Bushmen that migrated into the Tigress Euphrates river region. Everyone on the planet is genetically linked back to the origin Bushman tribe that still existed today. Now we find that (according to recents) we are also related to Neandrathals. I would guess that the original tribe of Bushmen are not, just the ones that migrated.

Adam is formed by knowledge not physical circumstances. Before the beginning they were as all others. They became enlightened and took on a new personage from that knowledge. That new person became and was Adam. The making of this new personage is what creation is about- it is creation itself that "is" Adam.

 Adam is a people not a singular person. The age of the Adamites ends when Nimrod instituted civilization for the Hebrew lineage, which is symbolized by the building of the tower of Babel. 

That is what we say, but it is up to you to accept or deny. We don't create right and wrong for others.

You are correct as I understand it, that the San Hedran didn't understand their own book.   Smiling

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Old Seer wrote:What's within

Old Seer wrote:

What's within a document needn't be true or false--it is still an evidence. Agreed. I didn't present the contents of the document (bible) as facts. We side with the Semites over the Euros. In any court of law a document is a fact, but what's on the document can be contested. (As per Lawyer Smurf). Every material object is a fact. No material facts have been presented to show you to be correct. You have a claim or a statement or an insight. You have no possible way under the circumstances to claim being correct. We don't claim to be correct, and make no argument of, is or isn't correct. We find no reason to doubt the Hebrew story. 

If you go over the OT you'll find that--taking over towns and areas for resources was normal routine. I also explained that 40 years according to their original numeric alphabet may not mean forty--it may represent a word or have a conjuctional meaning. You may not be understanding my posts as intended. I also pointed out that this is a problem when understanding the book on it's material references and merits. Wishing the book to be wrong doesn't make it wrong. You'll have to be patient as we are for future findings. Why aren't the Jews still writing myths today if they are myth writers. As long as we cannot correctly understand their wording system we can make no claims---plus or minus. We don't have the facts.  As long as there is no material evidence we still can't make positive determinations. To us the Semite did better then the Euro.

 

Yet again, twisting words, the hebrew word is 40 years, there is no mistake in what they stated in the torah. Now lets try this WHOLE thing again because you seem to have the same issue as other theists, a lack of common sense and comprehension problems. Basically a lack of reality. First off who is WE, as your statement We find no reason to doubt the hebrew story? The story is massively in doubt, so much so that biblical scholars and jewish scholars don't believe it happened in the capacity as described in the OT/Torah. Even worse there is zero archaeological evidence that 1.4 million jews wandered the desert, the size of egypt, wandering the sinai peninsula, which is far smaller than the nation of Egypt at the time.

You are basically stating that 40 years is not really 40 years, even though it give specifically 40 years, not metaphorically or anything like, it states 40 years, yet you claim (with no evidence as always) that it is not 40 years. Second, your EURO thing is getting very very old, since the document was written in hebrew. Therefore no EURO influence you can claim in hebrew for the statements it make, and if there is this EURO influence when it was written then it doesn't matter really because 40 years is 40 years, it was written as such, there is a claim made, there evidence doesn't back it up. Please either present actual evidence to back up your claim, otherwise continue on with a fools rambling about Euro influence and that jews that read hebrew and scholars of ancient hebrew don't understand hebrew. You claims are much like your belief, lacking in evidence in any form at all.


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old seer

Do you believe that there where more survivors after the flood
vs only eight.


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Yes

Jimenezj wrote:
Do you believe that there where more survivors after the flood vs only eight.

The book on the first count is about the lineage of a people in one region of the middle east. It's not about the whole planetary world. The migration out of Africa went fairly well world wide. As best as we can make it out only middle easterners are descendents of the Adamites. The flood as we determine it wasn't H2o. The flood was an Armageddon of it's time. They became so evil minded they couldn't sustain there social fixture and killed each other. The same thing happens at the end times, and as we determined it- it will be the last event of the end time. There was people everywhere on the planet at the time of Noah. The Adamites may have been around for a few thousand years before the fall.   Smiling

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jimenezj

Jimenezj wrote:
Do you believe that there where more survivors after the flood vs only eight.

 

 

                       There was no great flood, that is fantasy, it's not lack of belief it is lack of evidence. You have no evidence for your beliefs.

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Where's the Trash?

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

 

I asked you in your last thread a simple question you ignored in regard to the Exodus.

"Where's the trash?"

 

600,000 men, plus women, plus children. plus livestock wandering for 40 years.

 

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According to Sumerian stories - Yes

Jimenezj wrote:
Do you believe that there where more survivors after the flood vs only eight.

Lord Enki tried very hard to save many from the wrath of the Annuaki gods.

However, hurricanes only devastate so much.

Cat 5 up Persian Gulf consider the story of Gilgamesh aka Ziusudra

 

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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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The evidence of the Jews in Egypt is the stele of  Rameses II on which it reads that He  "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves". 
Found by Archeologist C.S Fisher.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Do you believe that Jesus Christ was YHWH in the flesh?


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latincanuck wrote:Old Seer

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

What's within a document needn't be true or false--it is still an evidence. Agreed. I didn't present the contents of the document (bible) as facts. We side with the Semites over the Euros. In any court of law a document is a fact, but what's on the document can be contested. (As per Lawyer Smurf). Every material object is a fact. No material facts have been presented to show you to be correct. You have a claim or a statement or an insight. You have no possible way under the circumstances to claim being correct. We don't claim to be correct, and make no argument of, is or isn't correct. We find no reason to doubt the Hebrew story. 

If you go over the OT you'll find that--taking over towns and areas for resources was normal routine. I also explained that 40 years according to their original numeric alphabet may not mean forty--it may represent a word or have a conjuctional meaning. You may not be understanding my posts as intended. I also pointed out that this is a problem when understanding the book on it's material references and merits. Wishing the book to be wrong doesn't make it wrong. You'll have to be patient as we are for future findings. Why aren't the Jews still writing myths today if they are myth writers. As long as we cannot correctly understand their wording system we can make no claims---plus or minus. We don't have the facts.  As long as there is no material evidence we still can't make positive determinations. To us the Semite did better then the Euro.

 

Yet again, twisting words, the hebrew word is 40 years, there is no mistake in what they stated in the torah. Now lets try this WHOLE thing again because you seem to have the same issue as other theists, a lack of common sense and comprehension problems. Basically a lack of reality. First off who is WE, as your statement We find no reason to doubt the hebrew story? The story is massively in doubt, so much so that biblical scholars and jewish scholars don't believe it happened in the capacity as described in the OT/Torah. Even worse there is zero archaeological evidence that 1.4 million jews wandered the desert, the size of egypt, wandering the sinai peninsula, which is far smaller than the nation of Egypt at the time.

You are basically stating that 40 years is not really 40 years, even though it give specifically 40 years, not metaphorically or anything like, it states 40 years, yet you claim (with no evidence as always) that it is not 40 years. Second, your EURO thing is getting very very old, since the document was written in hebrew. Therefore no EURO influence you can claim in hebrew for the statements it make, and if there is this EURO influence when it was written then it doesn't matter really because 40 years is 40 years, it was written as such, there is a claim made, there evidence doesn't back it up. Please either present actual evidence to back up your claim, otherwise continue on with a fools rambling about Euro influence and that jews that read hebrew and scholars of ancient hebrew don't understand hebrew. You claims are much like your belief, lacking in evidence in any form at all.

If you go on line and do some research you'll find that there are insights that what amounts to the Jews becoming westernized and have no idea on how to use their original numeric alphabet. They do not have a proper understanding of their ancestry or religion. The old testament is written at a time when the Alphabet was still being used. And, it didn't rain H2o for 40 days and nights as we understand it. Waters denotes mentality or state of mind--they killed each other. And--if you floks out there don't get this damn thing fixed/changed you.re headed for the same. We can see it. There's no fooling the Psycho Smurfs, they know exactly what they're looking at. The evidence is---the numeric Alphabet. It is what is needed to make determination within the OT and some things in the NT. Can you explain to me "what" I believe. You are delving in assumptions. Under the circumstances and not being able to use their numeric system we are reduced to speculation. We Speculate from the evidence within the book that the Hebrews were in Egypt. There is no other evidence to show they weren't  as I can see there can,t be. I'm not asking you to prove an impossibility.  Then to say they weren't is also a speculation, and I respect your speculation. There is no feasible reason to think they weren't in Egypt. There is no evidence to back up any claim nor can I present any, nor did I make any claim they were in Egypt.  Lack of evidence???-I'm not presenting any evidence or tried to prove anything. Your asking to prove something I'm not trying to prove. We are wise enough to know not to make a statement as, the Hebrews never were in Egypt---there's no way to know that.  You may be shown wrong at a future time.

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No I didn't ignor it

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

 

I asked you in your last thread a simple question you ignored in regard to the Exodus.

"Where's the trash?"

 

600,000 men, plus women, plus children. plus livestock wandering for 40 years.

 

I missed it. My goodness.

I think I did answer this. OK-IF the Hebrews wandered through the desert and they left trash how would one know what's Hebrew trash and what isn't. How many other floks do you suppose wandered through the same desert for several thousand years. I would say from experience that there is a lot of trash out there. Holy Kow--can you specifically say that there is no trash in the desert they wandered through when every other desert on the planet has trash. I'm not asking you to prove anything---how about "reason". You have my take on the 600,000. You should ask a Hebrew Scholar to explain their ancient numerics, you very likely would get a "Duh". They don't use it any more and very likely it,s long gone over the hill.

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touché!


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Jimenezj wrote:The evidence

Jimenezj wrote:
The evidence of the Jews in Egypt is the stele of  Rameses II on which it reads that He  "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves".  Found by Archeologist C.S Fisher.

It seems only christian websites are stating that, no where in academic places have I been able to find this information, could you provide a non theological website that backs your claim? As well since we are at it, can you provide the evidence that 1.4 million jews wandered the desert for 40 years? beyond the bible/torah statements.