Sociopaths. Are they the pioneers of civilization?

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Sociopaths. Are they the pioneers of civilization?

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Are sociopaths the pioneers of civilization? In the early stages of our species it took tremendous apathy in order to survive. From territorial conquests, experimentation of medicine, early stages of government and business one can almost pinpoint a leader with whom we would consider a sociopath. Was that the mentality we had to take in order to survive and thrive?

Eventually once a sustainable existence was founded there was a shift into empathy. Just as species evolve and branch off did the same happen to human brain?  

I was watching a segment of the actors studio where they were interviewing Edward Norton about his role of Aaron in Primal Fear where he portrayed a sociopath. It was a fascinating interview where Edward broke down the structure on how he played the role. Which lead me to reference a book I am currently read entitled "Your first 100 million". An oil tycoon memoirs and how to book on how he made his first 100 million. Immediately after starting the book the author spoke in such laid back candor about his early career in black ops in the attempt to overthrowing the Cuban government and his open depiction of the cut throat business world of billion dollar deals.  Which laid the foundation of me playing with the thought that a good faction of highly successful people in politics and business might fall under the category of sociopaths.  

Do sociopaths have an unspoken purpose in our society?

These are only fragment thoughts which at the present time are incoherent. Perhaps someone will catch on and add to it.

 

http://youtu.be/nMG1qjpzNPg












































































































































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My observation of human

My observation of human behavior is that everyone is a sociopath. We just vary to the degree we can repress and conceal this from others. A Jekyll and Hyde in everyone. Religion purports to be good a repressing Mr. Hyde(aka 'the Flesh').

 It should be obvious from observing a baby that we are born this way. They are only interested in their own immediate pleasure without any concern of others. Through socialization we learn we need to get along and the rules for behavior in one's society. Most people learn that showing empathy is good because empathy makes you popular and loved.

I think the people that are often classified as sociopath are actually either sadists, have ADHD or they just have great difficulty repressing their desires to conform to social norms.

People classified as sociopaths would resist conformity to social norms, so yes they would often tend to be trailblazers.

If you look at animals, you have some species that are heard animals, then you have the individualists(wolves, lions) socialization is only for reproduction. Each has advantages and disadvantage, In humans we are a mix of these two instincts with a wide variety.

 

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


El Gato Negro
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EXC wrote:My observation of

EXC wrote:

My observation of human behavior is that everyone is a sociopath. We just vary to the degree we can repress and conceal this from others. A Jekyll and Hyde in everyone. Religion purports to be good a repressing Mr. Hyde(aka 'the Flesh').

 It should be obvious from observing a baby that we are born this way. They are only interested in their own immediate pleasure without any concern of others. Through socialization we learn we need to get along and the rules for behavior in one's society. Most people learn that showing empathy is good because empathy makes you popular and loved.

I think the people that are often classified as sociopath are actually either sadists, have ADHD or they just have great difficulty repressing their desires to conform to social norms.

People classified as sociopaths would resist conformity to social norms, so yes they would often tend to be trailblazers.

If you look at animals, you have some species that are heard animals, then you have the individualists(wolves, lions) socialization is only for reproduction. Each has advantages and disadvantage, In humans we are a mix of these two instincts with a wide variety.

 

 

 

I won't go so far as stating all humans are born sociopaths. As infants we do have an inclination for self gratification and indulgence.  This just happened today. I was with my 2 yrs. old daughter watch a clip on youtube where a young leopard kills a baboon not knowing that there was a baby baboon clinging at her mother's leg. Immediately the leopard took the baby baboon under it's wing. Playing with it for hours. As soon as my daughter saw the leopard paw the baby baboon she protested and got assertive, yelling at the cat "don't hit baby". She could not differentiate between the leopard playing or hurting the baby baboon, she thought it was harming it. She just saw a larger animal being playfully aggressive with a baby animal. It was her inclination to "protect" it. Just as the young leopard had an inclination to protect the baby baboon from a hyena. This of course is rare in the animal kingdom.

http://youtu.be/PBLBB57w8Hk

But what of a real sociopath? One who can not find a connection with their own species or the world. That evolutionaire switch into empathy just never got turned on. It's like the reptilian brain dominates these people.

 

 


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El Gato Negro wrote:But what

El Gato Negro wrote:

But what of a real sociopath? One who can not find a connection with their own species or the world. That evolutionaire switch into empathy just never got turned on. It's like the reptilian brain dominates these people.

 

Psychosocial personality disorder is caused by an abnormality in the forebrain.  They can recognize emotions, but have no empathy - can not put themselves in the other person's place.

Reading material:

Baron-Cohen, Simon.  The Science of Evil: On Empathy and the origins of cruelty

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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EXC wrote:My observation of

EXC wrote:

My observation of human behavior is that everyone is a sociopath. We just vary to the degree we can repress and conceal this from others. A Jekyll and Hyde in everyone. Religion purports to be good a repressing Mr. Hyde(aka 'the Flesh').

I'd say people can be hooked on self-gratification even when alone, but sociopathy must by definition involve other people. It's the "socio" in sociopathy.

EXC wrote:
It should be obvious from observing a baby that we are born this way. They are only interested in their own immediate pleasure without any concern of others. Through socialization we learn we need to get along and the rules for behavior in one's society. Most people learn that showing empathy is good because empathy makes you popular and loved.
Babies are born helpless, unable even to control their bodily functions. It's natural they get frustrated and demand lots of help. But once they get a grip of themselves at least a little, they start being pro-social according to their own personality. Babies show sense of altruism, fairness, as early as 15 months, study says. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111007161636.htm

That is, normal, neurotypical babies with all the proper brain centers and proper brain chemistry and sensory processing. Babies, who have dedicated circuits for recognizing human faces and reacting to them, who can make simulations of other people in their head, who can update the social norms software automatically, who react emotionally at the moments and ways that Mother Evolution intended, like hooked on some emotional pan-human wi-fi network. Normal people, you are awesome.

EXC wrote:
People classified as sociopaths would resist conformity to social norms, so yes they would often tend to be trailblazers.
More likely they would try to win independence in their own lives and then they'd be content doing their own thing. 

EXC wrote:
If you look at animals, you have some species that are heard animals, then you have the individualists(wolves, lions) socialization is only for reproduction. Each has advantages and disadvantage, In humans we are a mix of these two instincts with a wide variety.

Wolves and lions aren't individualists, they're pack animals. Just as socialized as herd animals, maybe more due to coordinated hunting. They commonly drive out or kill different or sick individuals. I'd say humans are the most socialized of all, it's a norm. There are exceptions from that norm, but they have neurologic causes. It takes a brain damage or inborn disorder or some disease, for a human not to be social. Hell, even I am social, in theory. I'm just socially short-sighted and orient myself according to forum topics and people's personal worldviews, not their body language. But within that limitations, I'm actually very social. 

 

EXC wrote:
I think the people that are often classified as sociopath are actually either sadists, have ADHD or they just have great difficulty repressing their desires to conform to social norms.
No, sociopaths only lack the circuits in brain for putting themselves in other people's shoes. Which allows them to be successful, to invest on stock market purely by the logic of risk/benefit. Normal people can't do that, because they have subconscious inhibitions about bringing lots of others to bankrupcy. But personally they wouldn't hurt anyone, no more than anyone else. 

Man, you should really visit a psychologist and get checked. I know how the brain can fuck with us. I know how it is like to have severely impaired social understanding. It doesn't feel like anything is missing at all! We are perfectly capable of filling in the blanks with our own assumptions about people. We commonly assume others are just like us (though they may try to deny it, of course), or that they are worse than us, or better than us, or many other assumptions. But it took me years of hard work and study just to notice how little did I really understand about people and how much of my opinions about people were just assumptions and rationalizations, because the dedicated brain centers that build theory of mind just don't work properly. In a lot of what you write I can see the rationalization and interpretation, that is natural, it's our way of making sense of things. Sense is very important and for years I had the world and people perfectly figured out. Only in practice I had few friends and many enemies, but logically, it made sense, it all added up. I thought this is how it is and it took years and a lot of suffering to look critically at what I considered my most prized self-image.

I know it can be a great shock. Living unwittingly with such an impairment and then gradually discovering it may be like experiencing several 9/11 events in a lifetime. It's not unlike going from a fundie believer in God to realization that there is no God and deconverting from religion. It's painful and bewildering. It may be as shocking as suddenly discovering that you are the "bad guy" instead of the other guy. But it's also in a strange way liberating. The world makes more sense and we are not alone in it. 
There is of course a great stigma and public misunderstanding around it. I am not like Rain Man and you are not like Charles Manson. I am like a half of the Silicon Valley and you are like a half of the Wall Street. I just say, you have the right to know who and what you are and that you are not alone. You have the right to receive a manual to yourself, to the life. The science is out there, use it.

 

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EXC wrote:My observation of

EXC wrote:
My observation of human behaviour is that everyone is a sociopath.

There is a difference the sociopath has cold empathy - they know they’ve hurt someone but they don’t care, they lack the emotional slap.

Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
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thelilith wrote:EXC wrote:My

thelilith wrote:

EXC wrote:
My observation of human behaviour is that everyone is a sociopath.

There is a difference the sociopath has cold empathy - they know they’ve hurt someone but they don’t care, they lack the emotional slap.

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/06/18/a-society-where-everyone-is-a-sociopath/

 

Seems a lot like humanity to me. The only differece between us and other apes is we are better actors. We're so good at acting like we're not sociopaths, we even fool ourselves. I think our social conventions force us to repress our sociopathic nature more than chimps.

I believe what would be liberating for humanity is for people to come out of the closet and admit we're hedonists. Then humanity could work on a social framework for the pursuit of pleasure that does not come a the cost of someone else's pain. This world of phony compassion everywhere just doesn't cut it for me.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:thelilith

EXC wrote:

thelilith wrote:

EXC wrote:
My observation of human behaviour is that everyone is a sociopath.

There is a difference the sociopath has cold empathy - they know they’ve hurt someone but they don’t care, they lack the emotional slap.

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/06/18/a-society-where-everyone-is-a-sociopath/

 

Seems a lot like humanity to me. The only differece between us and other apes is we are better actors. We're so good at acting like we're not sociopaths, we even fool ourselves. I think our social conventions force us to repress our sociopathic nature more than chimps.

I believe what would be liberating for humanity is for people to come out of the closet and admit we're hedonists. Then humanity could work on a social framework for the pursuit of pleasure that does not come a the cost of someone else's pain. This world of phony compassion everywhere just doesn't cut it for me.

 

There is a lot of debate now about the differences between a Narcissist (bearing in mind we live in a culture that openly promotes Narcissism) and a Sociopath. Both have no conscience and lack empathy but the main thing that sets them apart is that Sociopaths tend to be con-artists with violent tendencies and no regard for the law.

They both use others but have slightly different tactics in the way they go about this, the Narcissist needs to be propped up and validated by the outside world but the Sociopath has no underlying neediness and simply exploits others for their own amusement and entertainment.

http://www.esquire.com/features/thousand-words-on-culture/new-narcissism-essay-0113

 

 

 

 

 

Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
Tony de Mello


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EXC wrote: It should be

EXC wrote:
 It should be obvious from observing a baby that we are born this way. They are only interested in their own immediate pleasure without any concern of others.

Wrong again. Babies and toddlers both have shown empathic traits during studies, such as punishing bullies and those who don't share; and rewarding social cooperation.

Unlike yourself, most humans are born with empathy for others. Just because you don't have or understand it doesn't mean it's not there for almost everyone else.

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Vastet wrote:EXC wrote: It

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
 It should be obvious from observing a baby that we are born this way. They are only interested in their own immediate pleasure without any concern of others.
Wrong again. Babies and toddlers both have shown empathic traits during studies, such as punishing bullies and those who don't share; and rewarding social cooperation. Unlike yourself, most humans are born with empathy for others. Just because you don't have or understand it doesn't mean it's not there for almost everyone else.
 

Reciprocity - it's hard to describe. It's better put into these words. I am a good person because I choose to be a good person, I choose to be a good person because I recognize what’s right and wrong based on a learned moral code and not one I was born with.

How do we know that reciprocity is a learned behaviour and something we do to get our own way? When I help an old lady over the road don’t I do it to feel good about myself, in other words all philanthropy is ultimately selfish, just a good sort of selfish.

Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
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Good and bad are subjective.

Good and bad are subjective. And I don't help an old lady to feel good. In point of fact it doesn't make me feel anything. I do it because I'd appreciate help if I were in trouble, and the best way to do that is embody it.
If I didn't/wouldn't, and most people were the same, then we'd still be living in forests and plains.

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EXC
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Vastet wrote:EXC wrote: It

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
 It should be obvious from observing a baby that we are born this way. They are only interested in their own immediate pleasure without any concern of others.
Wrong again. Babies and toddlers both have shown empathic traits during studies, such as punishing bullies and those who don't share; and rewarding social cooperation. Unlike yourself, most humans are born with empathy for others. Just because you don't have or understand it doesn't mean it's not there for almost everyone else.

 

Thanks for proving my point! You have no empathy for me because you perceive me as being of no advantage to you. You seek to make me feel as bad as you can and you enjoy this. You can only feign empathy for those whom you believe will accept you and benefit you. It's all an act people use to gain power and social acceptance. It's not empathy you have, but rather a desire for a social order that benefits yourself, so you give out rewards for the in group and punishment for the out group.

Do you have any study you can sight? I think what they're observing is the sense of social order and a desire to be accepted by peers. Also, we natually find the suffering of others distasteful and we want it stop for our own benefit. You mistake this for empathy as in true concern for others. To prove my point, people will help a poor guy on the street they pass by, but they won't help a starving child in Africa unless a news report about it makes them uncomfortable.

We don't go around seeking to help those in need, or seek a true solution to problems. You're version of compassion doesn't solve problems like poverty, it only makes people like you feel morally superior. The only result that matters is how you feel not the actual amount of suffering that is reduced.

 

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:You have no

EXC wrote:
You have no empathy for me because you perceive me as being of no advantage to you.

No. I have empathy for you, I'm simply capable of suspending empathy for sociopaths.

EXC wrote:
You seek to make me feel as bad as you can and you enjoy this.

I don't believe I can make you feel bad. I do believe that belittling your ignorant and dangerous beliefs in front of an audience are to my benefit and the benefit of humanity in general. If you feel bad as a result, I'm sorry. But I'm not going to stop any more than I'll stop belittling religion. The stakes are too high.

EXC wrote:
It's not empathy you have, but rather a desire for a social ~snip~ punishment for the out group.

Lulz. I seek the most beneficial social order for the most people. You're the one who wants to cut all social spending and let the rich enslave the majority. I'd say you're the one who's selfish. And because you are so selfish you can't understand altruism. So you think everyone is selfish. Projection.

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EXC wrote:Do you have any

EXC wrote:
Do you have any study you can sight?

Here's an article on one. There've been dozens in the last few years. They aren't hard to find:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57551557/babies-help-unlock-the-origins-of-morality/

Your thoughts are as wrong as they are expected from a sociopath.

EXC wrote:
We don't go around seeking to help those in need, or seek a true solution to problems.

Bullshit. YOU don't. Most of us DO.

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Vastet wrote: I seek the

Vastet wrote:
I seek the most beneficial social order for the most people. You're the one who wants to cut all social spending and let the rich enslave the majority. I'd say you're the one who's selfish. And because you are so selfish you can't understand altruism. So you think everyone is selfish. Projection.

You have no empathy for people that have worked hard and risked money to achieve financial success. You have no empathy for children born to parents incapable of caring for them, otherwise you would want to stop them from having more children.

When there is a gang that steals from anyone with wealth and then kill and tortures those that resist, they would be labeled a gang of sociopaths. Yet this is you political view, you want to form such gang and have it rule over everyone.

I understand altruism. You can't seem to rationally understand concepts like moral hazard and unintended consequences.

I don't want to cut social spending, we're broke and raising taxes would create more problems than it solves. Again I want a social contract where the recipients of welfare are required to behave in socially beneficial ways, not birth right entitlements. Not as a reward for failure to work or get job training or having a bunch of kids you can't care of.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:You have no

EXC wrote:
You have no empathy for people that have worked hard and risked money to achieve financial success.

Sure I do. I have no empathy for hoarders.

EXC wrote:
You have no empathy for children born to parents incapable of caring for them, otherwise you would want to stop them from having more children.

If I make everyone's choices for them, then I'm a dictator. I'm not willing to suspend freedom when education does the same thing, and has beneficial side effects to boot.

EXC wrote:
When there is a gang that steals from anyone with wealth and then kill and tortures those that resist, they would be labeled a gang of sociopaths. Yet this is you political view, you want to form such gang and have it rule over everyone.

Strawman, lie, or both. You choose.

EXC wrote:
I understand altruism. You can't seem to rationally understand concepts like moral hazard and unintended consequences.

No you don't. And the rest of this is based on a strawman, lie, or both.

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EXC wrote:I don't want to

EXC wrote:
I don't want to cut social spending, we're broke and raising taxes would create more problems than it solves. Again I want a social contract where the recipients of welfare are required to behave in socially beneficial ways, not birth right entitlements. Not as a reward for failure to work or get job training or having a bunch of kids you can't care of.

You just don't get that the majority who are on welfare are on it only briefly. It has been proven over and over to you that all your views on welfare and other social institutions like healthcare are blatantly false in dozens of topics over a good half decade by more members than are currently active.

You are the paragon of irrational.

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EXC wrote:Thanks for proving

EXC wrote:

Thanks for proving my point! You have no empathy for me because you perceive me as being of no advantage to you. You seek to make me feel as bad as you can and you enjoy this. You can only feign empathy for those whom you believe will accept you and benefit you. It's all an act people use to gain power and social acceptance. It's not empathy you have, but rather a desire for a social order that benefits yourself, so you give out rewards for the in group and punishment for the out group.

Maybe Vastet disagrees with you, because he wants to help you - to make your worldview more correct and valuable by changing it with objective facts and scientific studies. It may make you feel bad, but so does deconversion from religion! Not everyone who's mean at you wants to hurt you, there's such a thing as tough love. It's not pleasant, but it's for your good.

And why would all people want power and social acceptance? They can't have both, they can either enjoy a company of equals, or sit in a place of power envied by everyone and have few friends if any. Almost everyone chooses friends. In my experience, people want to be normal. Normal people are happiest, they have most friends and partners.

Just read what I wrote. I am convinced you see the world with an inborn neurologic disorder - like I do, only in a different way. This is imperceptible, yet only if you knew about it, you could compensate for it. Hint: What is more likely, that all people are bad, or that something is wrong with your perception? 

EXC wrote:
We don't go around seeking to help those in need, or seek a true solution to problems. You're version of compassion doesn't solve problems like poverty, it only makes people like you feel morally superior. The only result that matters is how you feel not the actual amount of suffering that is reduced.

We decide if our feelings are a cause or a consequence. If they sweep us along, or if we work regardless of them. This is just so with our endocrine glands. It can not be said we are hedonists. We must say that we have endocrine glands and that we use them, they are a part of our being, much as our brain is. They are a part of the inner dialogue between thought and emotion. They don't dominate always and in everyone.

And go visit some psychiatrist, you really need it. I need it too and I will do so as well. You are missing some very obvious things and that is not a normal way to live, you need to get checked. You're repeating yourself and not really getting in what people tell you. I don't know how aware you are of that, so I tell you. I don't want to hurt you or make you feel bad, I know how you feel because this is something like I went through and I wish I discovered it much sooner. But at the time I was much too sensitive, I thought people are disturbing me for no reason... I wasn't ready yet. 

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Now you don't need therapy to get a diagnosis

Now you don’t even need therapy to get a diagnosis, if you have $3,300 to spare you can have a brain SPECT scan if you suspect you have mental health issues to help pinpoint the problem and individualize the best treatment plan.

http://www.brainplace.com/

Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
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Vastet wrote: EXC

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
When there is a gang that steals from anyone with wealth and then kill and tortures those that resist, they would be labeled a gang of sociopaths. Yet this is you political view, you want to form such gang and have it rule over everyone.
Strawman, lie, or both. You choose.

It's not a strawman. You've on several occasions expressed a desire to take wealth from anyone that opposes your political view and to kill them('the guillotine'). Typically the people that are diagnosed as severe sociopaths are guys in prison that steal and kill callously because they feel they are entitled to do so. It seems the only difference between you and them is actually doing the act.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Vastet wrote: You just

Vastet wrote:
You just don't get that the majority who are on welfare are on it only briefly. It has been proven over and over to you that all your views on welfare and other social institutions like healthcare are blatantly false in dozens of topics over a good half decade by more members than are currently active.

If my views are blatantly false, we wouldn't be going broke paying for entitlements. Just raising taxes continually is what should be obviously false.

Depends on your definition of welfare. We give all kinds of financial benefits for people for people that can afford things(minimum wage, healtcare, no taxes, free education for kids, social security etc..). Plus there is all kinds of corporate welfare.

The fact that we are going broke(Total National debt > 100Trillion). So there is a lot of benefits for many people that way out measure what they contribute. Many people like myself are paying high taxes and getting nothing for it. It's unsustainable, you irrationally ignore this fact. But you are right, I should stop using the term 'welfare' and instead use 'birthright entitlements' because this is what is irrational and no one can not defend this concept.

Vastet wrote:
You are the paragon of irrational.

No. The fact that you need to resort to personal attacks instead of evidence and reason is good evidence of who is irrational. Plus you need to dictate to others what their opinion of what I write is supposed to be.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Vastet wrote:EXC wrote:Do

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
Do you have any study you can sight?
Here's an article on one. There've been dozens in the last few years. They aren't hard to find: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57551557/babies-help-unlock-the-origins-of-morality/ Your thoughts are as wrong as they are expected from a sociopath.
EXC wrote:
We don't go around seeking to help those in need, or seek a true solution to problems.
Bullshit. YOU don't. Most of us DO.

If most of you all did, then war, poverty and crime would have long ago been solved problems.

I don't agree with the conclusions of the study. They are still acting in their own self interest. They want to be friends with the helpful puppet and punish the hurtful puppet.  If a baby didn't behave this way, they would have no one to help them and the harmful people could screw them over.

It's not empathy, it is a willingness to participate in mutually beneficial relationships. People are not going to act against their own self interest. That's why you have 'selective empathy' and not real empathy.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Luminon wrote:Just read what

Luminon wrote:

Just read what I wrote. I am convinced you see the world with an inborn neurologic disorder - like I do, only in a different way. This is imperceptible, yet only if you knew about it, you could compensate for it. Hint: What is more likely, that all people are bad, or that something is wrong with your perception? 

I don't see anyone as bad or good. I think morality as is comonly understood is a flawed concept. As someone that doesn't believe in any creator or spirtual force, I think this is the only conclusion possible. If one understands the concept of evolution, a creature is not going to work against his own interest or those genetically close to them or whom they share memes.

I see the world as rational and irrational. There are patterns to how things work. So I see the concept of empathy as commonly understood as highly flawed. Why, because it does not solve problems. I only serves to benefit those that pretend to have it. If you have empathy for one group, this means you're having less empathy for another. Life is tradeoffs. People with empathy are blind to this.

People should unashamedly live for themselves and only engage in relationships when there is a clear mutual benefit. People that preach unselfishness are just trying to rob the live out of others.

Luminon wrote:

And go visit some psychiatrist, you really need it. I need it too and I will do so as well. You are missing some very obvious things and that is not a normal way to live, you need to get checked. You're repeating yourself and not really getting in what people tell you. I don't know how aware you are of that, so I tell you. I don't want to hurt you or make you feel bad, I know how you feel because this is something like I went through and I wish I discovered it much sooner. But at the time I was much too sensitive, I thought people are disturbing me for no reason... I wasn't ready yet. 

I had plenty of advise from theists that Jesus and religion was the answer for people's psychological problems. So I waisted years of my life on religion only to discover that it doesn't work for anyone. And that theists don't really believe what they claim. There is too much politics in psychiatry for it to be of much benefit.

So I don't agree with you and Vastet arguments that I need to 'get with the majority'. The majority was wrong about religion and their wrong about social interactions. No one has real empathy as is commonly understood. Everyone would benefit if we became unabashed hedonists.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:It's not a

EXC wrote:
It's not a strawman.

Yes, it is. The single longest running strawman in the history of this website.

EXC wrote:
You've on several occasions expressed a desire to take wealth from anyone that opposes your political view and to kill them('the guillotine').

Lies. The REAL truth is that rich people have been stealing from everyone else for more than 40 years and hoarding it. Every time that's ever happened, once everyone else is starving, everyone kills the rich. It's historical fact. I don't want the deaths to happen (jail would be sufficient), but people like you are too damn stupid to prevent it. Constantly lying about how its easy to get money, how everyone on welfare is a bum with 30 kids, healthcare is unsustainable, etc. All pure bullshit while the richest pocket record profits off the poors labour. You're a slave trader in the wrong century.

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EXC wrote:If my views are

EXC wrote:
If my views are blatantly false, we wouldn't be going broke paying for entitlements.

You're broke because you're an overextended empire who's using unsustainable economic systems and policies. Not because of a few dollars spent on social programmes which are not entitlements.

EXC wrote:
No.

Yes.

EXC wrote:
The fact that you need to resort to personal attacks instead of evidence and reason

Evidence and reason have been provided to you. But you're not just irrational you're also illiterate:

"It has been proven over and over to you that all your views on welfare and other social institutions like healthcare are blatantly false in dozens of topics over a good half decade by more members than are currently active."

And every single time you ignore it with your fingers in your ears saying nanananana, only to turn around and spout the exact same bullshit that was proven wrong 5 minutes previous.

You are the paragon of irrational.

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EXC wrote:If most of you all

EXC wrote:
If most of you all did, then war, poverty and crime would have long ago been solved problems.

Nope. They will never be solved because there's always enough sociopaths like yourself to prevent it.

I don't care about your irrational conclusions or your willfull ignorance of science and logic. Your side always goes down hard, crying to the end about bullshit.

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Vastet wrote:EXC

Vastet wrote:
Constantly lying about how its easy to get money, how everyone on welfare is a bum with 30 kids, healthcare is unsustainable, etc. All pure bullshit while the richest pocket record profits off the poors labour. You're a slave trader in the wrong century.

Obvious strawman and lies. When did I ever say it was 'easy to get money'? I used the bum with 30 kids example to show how irrational people like you are about mandatory birith control for welfare recipients. Healthcare is unsustainable as a birthright, that's why we're going broke just paying for medicare/medicaid.

Face it, your political views are part of a gang of sociopaths that seek to steal and kill because you're believe your entitled to do so.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Vastet wrote:EXC

DP


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Quote:Obvious strawman and

Quote:
Obvious strawman and lies.


Blatant lie.

Quote:
When did I ever say it was 'easy to get money'?

Dozens of times over half a decade. Liar.

Quote:
 I used the bum with 30 kids example to show how irrational people like you are about mandatory birith control for welfare recipients.

And you've still yet to prove there's any reality behind your irrational delusions. You talk about welfare bums with 30 kids, but you can't point them all out. So your entire basis of argument simply doesn't exist. The day you prove that there's 50 million welfare bums with 30 kids leaching the system, you'll have a point. Until then you're just full of shit.

Face it. You're a delusional sociopath who is absolutely incapable of understanding how the world actually works, and as a direct result everything you say is ridiculously stupid.

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Vastet wrote:When did I ever

Vastet wrote:
When did I ever say it was 'easy to get money'?
Dozens of times over half a decade. Liar.
Quote:

Evidence Mr. Strawman. It is easy to get money if you have political power, in the real world of work no.

Vastet wrote:

 I used the bum with 30 kids example to show how irrational people like you are about mandatory birith control for welfare recipients.

And you've still yet to prove there's any reality behind your irrational delusions. You talk about welfare bums with 30 kids, but you can't point them all out. So your entire basis of argument simply doesn't exist. The day you prove that there's 50 million welfare bums with 30 kids leaching the system, you'll have a point. Until then you're just full of shit. Face it.

Evidence I ever call him a bum? If the guy is lazy and unmotivated it is because people like you enable him. Benefits are birth rights with no work or education requirements. Irrational and unsustainable system.

 

Vastet wrote:
You're a delusional sociopath who is absolutely incapable of understanding how the world actually works, and as a direct result everything you say is ridiculously stupid.

The evidence is quite clear. Your extreme political views amount to a gang of sociopaths that seek to steal and kill. You only cooperate with fellow thieves that see the state as nothing more than a way to give you stuff taken from others. You seek to bully anyone that stands in your way.

It's quite obvious as well you don't want others that may read these post to think for themselves.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Evidence Mr.

EXC wrote:
Evidence Mr. Strawman.

Every time I or anyone else provides you with evidence you ignore it, Mr. Irrational Liar. I gave up on it years ago. But if you actually want it, look through your own posting history.

EXC wrote:
Evidence I ever call him a bum?

You dumb mother fucker. You JUST FUCKING CALLED HIM A BUM. How have you not died of pure stupidity yet?

Anyone who reads this topic will have fallen over laughing by the time they get to this comment. Absolutely ridiculous.

Fortunately most people aren't stupid sociopaths like yourself. I'd have given up on humanity by now.

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Vastet wrote: You dumb

Vastet wrote:
You dumb mother fucker. You JUST FUCKING CALLED HIM A BUM. How have you not died of pure stupidity yet? Anyone who reads this topic will have fallen over laughing by the time they get to this comment. Absolutely ridiculous. Fortunately most people aren't stupid sociopaths like yourself. I'd have given up on humanity by now.

I'm sure they will see who the idiot is. I'm repeating what you said. You make up a strawman about me, so I repeat what you say and then you claim I said it. You are the ultimate.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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No, you quoted me quoting

No, you quoted me quoting yourself and fucked up the formatting so badly you attributed your own comments to me. Sheer stupidity, as if anymore evidence was necessary.

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EXC wrote:I don't see anyone

EXC wrote:

I don't see anyone as bad or good. I think morality as is comonly understood is a flawed concept. As someone that doesn't believe in any creator or spirtual force, I think this is the only conclusion possible. If one understands the concept of evolution, a creature is not going to work against his own interest or those genetically close to them or whom they share memes.

The situation is a bit more complex. We evolved big brains, but these brains are prone to memetic infection. Memes are not little viruses, they can be huge environments of simultaneous culture, they can be like "group ideas". And these great memes are like shepherds, each with their flock of sheep. All these shepherds are seemingly different, be it a religion, a sect, a soccer club, a political party, but they all want two things and two things only.

 - self-preservation (and spreading)
 - emotional stimulation.
Don't underestimate the great memes. They exploit our great brain and emotional capacity and for them a single individual does not mean much. They swallow people, lay low, build up their numbers, separate people from the environment, stir up their emotions and stimulate them even more by conflict. The great memes crave emotional stimulation and conflict when they're strong enough, otherwise they seek to preserve and spread their numbers. But they - as non-living ideas don't care if some of their people die, or sacrifice themselves for the faith. This is why people may act seemingly against their best natural interest of individual self-preservation. Great memes define everything - relationships, morality, culture... I'd say they are much stronger than genes since recent centuries. We evolved as great vacant spaces for meme carrying. 

This is the basis of tribalism, a tribe as a great memetic entity.

EXC wrote:
I see the world as rational and irrational. There are patterns to how things work. So I see the concept of empathy as commonly understood as highly flawed. Why, because it does not solve problems. I only serves to benefit those that pretend to have it. If you have empathy for one group, this means you're having less empathy for another. Life is tradeoffs. People with empathy are blind to this.

People should unashamedly live for themselves and only engage in relationships when there is a clear mutual benefit. People that preach unselfishness are just trying to rob the live out of others.

Isn't it better to have a partial empathy than none at all? Why should empathy solve any problems of today? Our problems are such that we never had to face in previous evolution. Empathy evolved in a non-global environment. We can however develop our reason and apply empathy to any problem at hand, so it will be useful even though it's limited. 

As for people preaching unselfishness... I'd find that highly suspicious. Either you understand it, or you don't. If you don't understand it, then study the  game theory - the prisoner's dilemma. You'll see that cooperation gives the best results of all choices, if the game has no time limit and there will be many such choices ahead. This is why it was favored by evolution. 

EXC wrote:
 I had plenty of advise from theists that Jesus and religion was the answer for people's psychological problems. So I wasted years of my life on religion only to discover that it doesn't work for anyone. And that theists don't really believe what they claim. There is too much politics in psychiatry for it to be of much benefit.

So I don't agree with you and Vastet arguments that I need to 'get with the majority'. The majority was wrong about religion and their wrong about social interactions. No one has real empathy as is commonly understood. Everyone would benefit if we became unabashed hedonists.

What I mean is, you don't fit into the environment of memetic infections. Not because of your decision or your hedonism, but because you're neurologically isolated from the memes. Somewhat like I am. If you weren't, then going along with memetic infections would be a pleasure for you, you'd be a memetic hedonist like everyone else. This is not a good or bad thing, a little isolation gives rise to original thinking. But you're not original, you're rationalizing something that is emotional, not rational. That would deceive your judgement, because no amount of rational description can convey the highly infectious memetic atmosphere that brainwashes people on megachurch meeings. I'd say you probably aren't equipped to process this kind of external, irrational information. You don't experience it for what it is, a highly intoxicating, hedonistic thing, so you have to re-invent the idea of pleasure as something separate from empathy and emotions. In your neurology it may be the case, but in most people's it isn't.

I think there's no cure for that, but if you know your instrument (the brain) you can compensate for it. You can realize that people around belong to tribes and they do what the tribalistic meme tells them to do. They alternate between preservation of the "tribe" and emotional stimulation. They see some things as a threat to the tribe and some not. All this tribalism runs on our uncontrolled, free brain space that has to do with emotions. You can opt out of that either by gaining a great self-awareness and self-control, or by having a neurologic disorder. Or both, in my case.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.