Gaddafi dead

BobSpence
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Gaddafi dead

Finally.

But when I heard the 'rebels' thank Allah for finally freeing them from his tyranny, I wanted to grab them ask WTF did Allah allow him to stay on in power for 40+ years???

 

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 Confirmation bias - the

 Confirmation bias - the one thing that theists have in common.

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BobSpence1 wrote:Finally.But

BobSpence1 wrote:

Finally.

But when I heard the 'rebels' thank Allah for finally freeing them from his tyranny, I wanted to grab them ask WTF did Allah allow him to stay on power for 40+ years???

 

Exactly.

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I don't care about him

I don't care about him dieing it is a PR victory, the battle was over him dead or not. Two things do annoy me though, first they brought him out alive and then let people mob him to death? Common really? The guy might have deserved the death penalty but that is not how things should be done. Secondly true to form idiots fire there guns in the air in celebration. When this has happened in other parts of the world people die every single time. Most recently 4 people died and 17 were injured in baghdad after some good old celebratory gunfire.

 

Maybe now people openly celebrating when someone dies will have there blood lust satisfied for a few days at least.

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I agree he should have been

I agree he should have been publicly tried, with his crimes laid out for all to see.

It appears he was effectively executed, with a shot to the head.

 

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Yes, a person got executed

Yes, a person got executed and now several different countries will have years of rebuilding in front of them. What comes out of the rebuilding efforts, no one knows. I do think it is a safe guess that Egypt and Libya will have people a multitude of ideas of how to crawl out of the ashes into an "age of glory".

As you may have noticed, I'm a glass half-empty sort of person, meaning for the uninitiated, that I am pessimistic.

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You guys are sick, all he

You guys are sick, all he did was kill his own people and monopolize the country's wealth. He was a good guy, he was just misunderstood. ALLAH CHOCOLATE BAR!. Death to the west. Enie menie minie moe!

 

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BobSpence1 wrote:I agree he

BobSpence1 wrote:

I agree he should have been publicly tried, with his crimes laid out for all to see.

It appears he was effectively executed, with a shot to the head.

 

Well, if I am ever executed I'd like to die via jello shots from the belly of Angelina Jolie. But since I am not a tyrant, DAMN, is that what I have to do to get chicks, take over a country and become a dictator?

I'll stick with internet porn.

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I noticed that the guy who

I noticed that the guy who shot him was wearing a Yankees Cap....

 

.... Had it been a Red Sox cap, he would have had to choke him to death


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p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Brian37 wrote:
Well, if I am ever executed I'd like to die via jello shots from the belly of Angelina Jolie. But since I am not a tyrant, DAMN, is that what I have to do to get chicks, take over a country and become a dictator?

 

I'll stick with internet porn.

 

OK, I am guessing that you do not know the history of the almighty jello shot. It is actually quite a tale.

 

Go back to the early 50's. Los Alamos National Laboratory, the place where hydrogen bombs were developed. Now for some reason, the security detail had an issue with booze and nukes in the same place. Mirthless idiots.

 

Well, the mathematician who developed the model for how neutrons propagate (it is literally called the drunkard's walk) figured out how to get booze past them. It seems that there is this little old woman in the town outside who makes the best jello. Yes, the guards were that dumb.

 

Now, while the guards were mirthless, the guy who invented the jello shot was a noted satrists in academic circles. Because this is the internet:

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And it is official Gadhafi

And it is official Gadhafi died of a head shot. Considering he was alive with no bullet in his head while caught on tape in custody this can only mean that he was executed without a trial. Not a great start to any new democracy. I don't think there can be any doubt about this anymore.

http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Gaddafi-died-of-head-shot-Libya-doctors-20111023

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This has been a week that

This has been a week that makes me ashamed to be British. The frontpages of our newspapers yesterday were the worst I've seen a long while. Why are we so obsessed with Gadaffi's dying moments and his dead, bloody body? Why are all these Libyans queuing up to this meat freezer to shout and swear at the body? This is vengeance...a very ugly side of human nature.

One stray thought that occurs to me is that transubstantiation-believing Christians (eg. Catholics) believe they literally eat the flesh and drink the blood of a man every Sunday at the celebration of the eucharist. It is only God's mercy, they say, that the body and the blood are magically disguised in the inoffensive form of a wafer.

 


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Reasonable expectations for no government

Law, trial, execution, crime, rules of engagement, these are all things that only materially exist when there is a government.  When an insurrection removes a government from power, none of those things materially exist anymore.  Gadhafi died without a functioning government around him, so I am not sure why anyone would have the expectation that out of thousands of angry people, not one would kill him given the many opportunities without a functioning government in place.

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Mr. XC wrote:Law, trial,

Mr. XC wrote:

Law, trial, execution, crime, rules of engagement, these are all things that only materially exist when there is a government.  When an insurrection removes a government from power, none of those things materially exist anymore.  Gadhafi died without a functioning government around him, so I am not sure why anyone would have the expectation that out of thousands of angry people, not one would kill him given the many opportunities without a functioning government in place.

I think the transitional government was by defination a government, perhaps not one which functioned to any high degree by a government all the same. They had the level of function required to wage war. They were around him, I believe it was the people they were using to fight Gadhafi which pulled him out of that hole.

 

Now If it was just some random angry guy then fine, I don't think anyone will be overly upset, that can happen even with a functioning government and there is very little anyone can do about it. The issue is if this transitional government which is claiming to be the government let it happen (by handing him over to angry people) or did it themselves, that is where it is a problem, and really it does look like they let it happen, I remember reports of his body being enveloped by a mob of people, how does he go from captured by forces fighting for this transitional government alive to dead and in a mob. It could be the work of one angry guy but if it wasn't then there is a problem. We know he didn't die from wounds he had when he was captured as he died from a shot to the head and since he was in the company of forces controled by the transitional government I think it is safe to say they killed him. Even then if they acted without being told to kill him its not really that big a deal but did they make that decision themselves? This is why an investigation is needed.

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I think we need to cut the

I think we need to cut the Libyans some slack here. I totally agree that the norm should be just like once a cop gets the drop on you and you are in handcuffs, it shouldn't matter what the person was accused of, hands off after that.

But, war is hell, to say we in the west have never done things like this is absurd. I once worked at an old people's radio station and we did a D-Day special. It was pre-recorded. One of the vets who spoke at the event talked about shooting unarmed Germans trying to run away.

Considering what Daffy did to them over the past 40 years, while it wasn't ideal, their reaction was understandable. I'd simply advise whomever gets power now, not to do this type of thing again.

Understanding something doesn't mean you excuse it. It's just like a parent steeling a loaf of bread for their kids when they don't have money. You don't condone the steeling, but you understand why.

 

 

 

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Reminds me too much of

Reminds me too much of Saddam. An otherwise happy moment reduced to butchery, fear, and disgust. Nothing to celebrate here. The ball was dropped. And Ghadaffi was already irrelevant anyway.

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Vastet wrote:Reminds me too

Vastet wrote:
Reminds me too much of Saddam. An otherwise happy moment reduced to butchery, fear, and disgust. Nothing to celebrate here. The ball was dropped. And Ghadaffi was already irrelevant anyway.

Again, certianly not an ideal ending, but to say the west hasn't behaved this way is absurd. The death of Mousolini(sp) and even the end of WW2.

AGAIN it isnt condoning the act as much as understanding the act. I don't think the person/people who killed him represent all the Libyans. There WERE reports of people shouting "Don't shoot him".

And to say the "get even" meme does not exist in the west is absurd. Dirty Harry, Red Dawn depict our own "get even ideas".

Instead of focusing on one event in human history, try UNDERSTANDING human evolution and human psychology. It isn't that we should always want this to happen, it is merely an unfortunate part of our evolution. When a human or group of humans get a chance to "get even" with those who harm us, we do react.

So instead of dwelling on what we cant change, we can tell the new powers, hey, don't do that again unless you want someone in the future to end up doing that to you.

This is not a label thing, it is a human condition thing.

 

 

 

 

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I don't reserve my criticism

I don't reserve my criticism for the East. It's mostly the fault of the West (especially Britain, France, Spain, and the US) that the middle east is in the shambles it is.

I still have the right to condemn this as wrong. And I'm exercising it.

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Vastet wrote:I don't reserve

Vastet wrote:
I don't reserve my criticism for the East. It's mostly the fault of the West (especially Britain, France, Spain, and the US) that the middle east is in the shambles it is. I still have the right to condemn this as wrong. And I'm exercising it.

Who says I am not? I condemn it too. But considering what they went through it is understandable.

If your kid gets molested and you shoot the bastard who does it, you are illegally taking the law into your own hands, which you should not do, but you damned sure are not going to get a jury to put you on death row for killing your child's molester, although you will get a lesser punishment.

Theists make this mistake too. "understanding" is not excusing. Those are two separate issues.

We cannot treat their reaction as the same as what Daffy did to them. The best we can do is say "don't do it again". I think we need to have compassion for the Libyans in this context while keeping firm in telling them not to do that again.

 

 

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I agree with most of what

I agree with most of what you said, but not in having compassion and ignoring an issue like this. The fastest way they'll learn it was wrong is by widespread condemnation. Excusing it for any reason is akin to telling them it was ok, and giving lease to it happening again. It wasn't ok. And if they keep it up they're as bad as he was, meaning toppling him had no effect except to change the specific individuals prospering under the new regime. Meaning nothing of note happened at all.

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Brian37 wrote:You guys are

Brian37 wrote:

You guys are sick, all he did was kill his own people and monopolize the country's wealth. He was a good guy, he was just misunderstood. ALLAH CHOCOLATE BAR!. Death to the west. Enie menie minie moe!

 

In America he'd be called a Tea Party activist and have a job on Fox News as a "contributor".

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 The lives of Libyans will

 The lives of Libyans will be significantly worse, not better. Libya had probably the highest standard of living in Africa, subsidized housing, education and food; universal health-care, high life expectancy and a crime rate comparable to Japan's. 

 Now what do they have? A government overthrown by western funded extremists who'll impose sharia law on them and let US companies come in and economically rape the fuck out everything at the people's expense. It's not surprising anymore, most people probably think kicking the shit out of a guy in the street and shooting him in the face without a trial is not only okay but the right thing to do.

 

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Tapey wrote:Mr. XC

Tapey wrote:

Mr. XC wrote:

Law, trial, execution, crime, rules of engagement, these are all things that only materially exist when there is a government.  When an insurrection removes a government from power, none of those things materially exist anymore.  Gadhafi died without a functioning government around him, so I am not sure why anyone would have the expectation that out of thousands of angry people, not one would kill him given the many opportunities without a functioning government in place.

I think the transitional government was by defination a government, perhaps not one which functioned to any high degree by a government all the same. They had the level of function required to wage war. They were around him, I believe it was the people they were using to fight Gadhafi which pulled him out of that hole.

 

Now If it was just some random angry guy then fine, I don't think anyone will be overly upset, that can happen even with a functioning government and there is very little anyone can do about it. The issue is if this transitional government which is claiming to be the government let it happen (by handing him over to angry people) or did it themselves, that is where it is a problem, and really it does look like they let it happen, I remember reports of his body being enveloped by a mob of people, how does he go from captured by forces fighting for this transitional government alive to dead and in a mob. It could be the work of one angry guy but if it wasn't then there is a problem. We know he didn't die from wounds he had when he was captured as he died from a shot to the head and since he was in the company of forces controled by the transitional government I think it is safe to say they killed him. Even then if they acted without being told to kill him its not really that big a deal but did they make that decision themselves? This is why an investigation is needed.

Yes, there should be an investigation, but my point is that this incomplete government does not represent a complete government.  The transitional government is a bootstrapping process to get to a real government.  It seems to me like someone drove a car that has a frame, engine, seat, and a few other essential components but no body, seatbelt, or door and after a crash, someone is complaining that the manufacturer has a problem when the seat belts and air bags have not even been installed yet.  Yes, something serious went wrong, but the safety problems of the incomplete car are not representative of a whole car.

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I'm not happy about the way

I'm not happy about the way he was killed, but it isn't like this was a professional operation through a well run and well equipped police force or something.

This was a bunch of angry civilians running around with guns.  I'm surprised he was shot him in the head, rather than beaten to death by the mob that found him.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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One of the things that

One of the things that occurs to me is the way our media has changed. If this happened 30 years ago, or even 10 years ago, we probably wouldn't have had all this gory footage of the murder recorded on mobile phone cameras etc..


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Scout wrote:One of the

Scout wrote:

One of the things that occurs to me is the way our media has changed. If this happened 30 years ago, or even 10 years ago, we probably wouldn't have had all this gory footage of the murder recorded on mobile phone cameras etc..

I am torn on it's display. I most certainly do not want the west to go back to the public executions of the past. But this does send a warning to ALL the theocrats and fascist states that if you monopolize power and resources this could happen to you.

I don't care what kind of government you set up, if you get to the point of only caring about your circle of friends and end up with a "let them eat cake" attitude, the "outsiders" will revolt when they get a chance.

Power cannot be stagnant or unchangable. The rise of the Soviet Union was a result of centeralized and monopolized wealth. The fall of the Soviet Union happened for the same reason, Instead of one class or one family having a monopoly it was one party.

 

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 Lybia was not fascist,

 Lybia was not fascist, Gaddafi wanted to nationalize Libyan oil. Libyans had a high living standard that was for the most part government subsidized. They certainly didn't have a government that was oblivious to the living conditions of the people and told them to "eat cake" as you say. 

Now they're probably fascists though, islamofascists.

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Gauche wrote: The lives of

Gauche wrote:

 The lives of Libyans will be significantly worse, not better. Libya had probably the highest standard of living in Africa, subsidized housing, education and food; universal health-care, high life expectancy and a crime rate comparable to Japan's.

That's true if you were pro-Qaddahfi, but not at all true if you weren't.

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FurryCatHerder wrote:Gauche

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Gauche wrote:

 The lives of Libyans will be significantly worse, not better. Libya had probably the highest standard of living in Africa, subsidized housing, education and food; universal health-care, high life expectancy and a crime rate comparable to Japan's.

That's true if you were pro-Qaddahfi, but not at all true if you weren't.

Wrong, the standard of living for everyone in Libya is now lower because they've just experienced a disastrous reversal of 40 years of economic and social development.

According to UNICEF the destruction of their water infrastructure alone will cause an unprecedented health epidemic.

http://www.unicef.org/media/media_59666.html

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Gauche wrote: Lybia was not

Gauche wrote:

 Lybia was not fascist, Gaddafi wanted to nationalize Libyan oil. Libyans had a high living standard that was for the most part government subsidized. They certainly didn't have a government that was oblivious to the living conditions of the people and told them to "eat cake" as you say. 

Now they're probably fascists though, islamofascists.

Where was his protection of political and religious and speech dissent? I am sorry, whatever you think he threw at the public to placate them, it must not have been good enough otherwise they wouldn't have rebeled.

Jefferson supported the French Revolution, he most certainly did not or would not have supported the dictatorship that followed.

Why is it if Gadaffi wasn't fascist, why did his minions try to prevent a woman raped by police from speaking to the media? In a civilized world, in an open society, if someone is lying, you don't prevent them from doing it, you allow them to lie and use the courts to sue them. She got hauled off without probable cause without proof that she had committed a crime. It was only the appeal of the international community that she got released. If she had made the same accusation 10 years ago, she'd be in prison or dead without due process.

Gadaffi had a monopoly. It doesn't matter if he feed everyone, he was still a dictator, just like Stalin. There is no such thing as a kind dictator.

 

 

 

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 I'm not saying he was

 I'm not saying he was kind. He brutally crushed peaceful dissent. But everything you're saying is wrong. Libya was not a fascist state and it definitely wasn't a theocracy. Fascist states don't nationalize their natural resources. They privatize them. Gadaffi had widespread support in Libya probably more than the Obama has in the US. He was overthrown by NATO funded rebels who are religious extremists by the way.  What do you think Fascism is?

 

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They did not really have a

They did not really have a system of laws or structured government, it was basically all at the whim of Gaddaffi.

He did what he personally thought was for the benefit of the people of Libya, and if that suited you as a citizen, that was fine.

But there was no allowance for dissent, if you disagreed with his ideas of how Libya should be run, in any detail, it could be big trouble for you if you tried to object - imprisonment, torture, whatever.

And it seems he got more eccentric as he aged.

There are strong indications that he and his family kept a rather significant part of the Oil wealth to themselves, even while using part of it to raise the general standard of living for the population, who had no say in how it was distributed.

A bit like 'Uncle Joe' Stalin. There were many people who were better off under his regime too, than what they had before, and there were still parts of the old Soviet Union where the 'peasants' mourned Stalin's departure.

 

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Quote:Wrong, the standard of

Quote:
Wrong, the standard of living for everyone in Libya is now lower because they've just experienced a disastrous reversal of 40 years of economic and social development.

Yea, it was so peachy that the Libyans rejected his model. Why don't you go back to the majority of people who kicked his ass and tell them how ungrateful they are for what they went through for 40 years. I think they'd be happy without that boot on their neck, but since you don't believe me, ask the people themselves?

I am sure that when the Founders of the American Revolution fought the war and won the war, the time after was shaky and uncertain, but to them, it was far better than having a king dictate to them. And was so much, even if England was promising to feed them.

If Gadaffi was such a great humanitarian then why did his own population reject him?

 

 

 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Quote:Wrong,

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
Wrong, the standard of living for everyone in Libya is now lower because they've just experienced a disastrous reversal of 40 years of economic and social development.

Yea, it was so peachy that the Libyans rejected his model. Why don't you go back to the majority of people who kicked his ass and tell them how ungrateful they are for what they went through for 40 years. I think they'd be happy without that boot on their neck, but since you don't believe me, ask the people themselves?

I am sure that when the Founders of the American Revolution fought the war and won the war, the time after was shaky and uncertain, but to them, it was far better than having a king dictate to them. And was so much, even if England was promising to feed them.

If Gadaffi was such a great humanitarian then why did his own population reject him?

If a group from outside your nation funded Christian fundamentalist in overthrowing your government is that the question you'd ask, if it was so great why did some people not like it?

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Gauche wrote: I'm not

Gauche wrote:

 I'm not saying he was kind. He brutally crushed peaceful dissent. But everything you're saying is wrong. Libya was not a fascist state and it definitely wasn't a theocracy. Fascist states don't nationalize their natural resources. They privatize them. Gadaffi had widespread support in Libya probably more than the Obama has in the US. He was overthrown by NATO funded rebels who are religious extremists by the way.  What do you think Fascism is?

 

HOLLY SHIT BATMAN

You are the one who missuses the word "fascism". Fascism is ANY form of monopoly. Socializing everything and having no private sector is FASCISM. Basing your government on religion and favoring one religion over another is FASCISM. Putting one political party in charge without the opportunity for dissent is FASCISM. Having no rules and complete Corporate anarchy is FASCISM.

Fascism is when any class, any religion, any political party any ideology gains a monopoly on power.

Pluralism is inclusive and allows for dissent and does not allow power to stagnate to one end of the pendulum or the other.

 

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Brian37 wrote:HOLLY SHIT

Brian37 wrote:

HOLLY SHIT BATMAN

You are the one who missuses the word "fascism". Fascism is ANY form of monopoly. Socializing everything and having no private sector is FASCISM. Basing your government on religion and favoring one religion over another is FASCISM. Putting one political party in charge without the opportunity for dissent is FASCISM. Having no rules and complete Corporate anarchy is FASCISM.

Fascism is when any class, any religion, any political party any ideology gains a monopoly on power.

Pluralism is inclusive and allows for dissent and does not allow power to stagnate to one end of the pendulum or the other. 

You could call all those things fascism but then you'd just be using it as a pejorative and the term would be so generalized as to be nearly meaningless. I mean according to you communism would be fascism even though Italian fascists who defined the term described it as anti-communist.  

According to Benito Mussolini fascism is corporatism. It is a merger of corporate and state power. FDR defined it as when private power exceeds government power and private individuals or groups take ownership of the state. By those definitions Libya was not fascist. It was authoritarian and all fascist states are, but not all authoritarian states are fascist.

Your definition of fascism is so broad that if the majority of congress and the president belonged to the same political party that would be fascism. 

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Gauche wrote:If a group from

Gauche wrote:

If a group from outside your nation funded Christian fundamentalist in overthrowing your government is that the question you'd ask, if it was so great why did some people not like it?

EXCUSE ME?  The West didn't get involved in the rebel movement until it was obvious that Qaddafi was slaughtering them.  The original protesters were Libyans.  When NATO got involved all they wanted was some protection so that at least the fight between Libyan rebels and Qaddafi loyalists would be something closer to a fair fight.

And I'll second the comment about life after the revolution being harder than it was before.  The nine years of the Texas Republic weren't the best either, but it was a hell of a lot better than what people put up with under Mexican rule.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Gauche

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Gauche wrote:

If a group from outside your nation funded Christian fundamentalist in overthrowing your government is that the question you'd ask, if it was so great why did some people not like it?

EXCUSE ME?  The West didn't get involved in the rebel movement until it was obvious that Qaddafi was slaughtering them.  The original protesters were Libyans.  When NATO got involved all they wanted was some protection so that at least the fight between Libyan rebels and Qaddafi loyalists would be something closer to a fair fight.

And I'll second the comment about life after the revolution being harder than it was before.  The nine years of the Texas Republic weren't the best either, but it was a hell of a lot better than what people put up with under Mexican rule.

Before you two were asking if he were so great why would his people reject him. I could ask if he were so bad why did NATO need to destroy the entire country's infrastructure with air strikes and fund rebels to oust someone so unpopular. 

At least under Gaddafi women had equal rights. I guess they're better off now without that burden under sharia law.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/26/world/africa/libya-sharia/

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Gauche wrote:Before you two

Gauche wrote:

Before you two were asking if he were so great why would his people reject him. I could ask if he were so bad why did NATO need to destroy the entire country's infrastructure with air strikes and fund rebels to oust someone so unpopular. 

At least under Gaddafi women had equal rights. I guess they're better off now without that burden under sharia law.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/26/world/africa/libya-sharia/

All of the infrastructure?  You mean, all the infrastructure that's still there, that's being used today, sprung up from the ground the day after Qaddafi had his head blown off?

Hell, throw the Mexicans out and bring in the Libyans -- they're better at construction than any wetback!

Ahem.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Gauche

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Before you two were asking if he were so great why would his people reject him. I could ask if he were so bad why did NATO need to destroy the entire country's infrastructure with air strikes and fund rebels to oust someone so unpopular. 

At least under Gaddafi women had equal rights. I guess they're better off now without that burden under sharia law.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/26/world/africa/libya-sharia/

All of the infrastructure?  You mean, all the infrastructure that's still there, that's being used today, sprung up from the ground the day after Qaddafi had his head blown off?

Hell, throw the Mexicans out and bring in the Libyans -- they're better at construction than any wetback!

Ahem.

There were over 8 thousand NATO air strikes targeting residential and government buildings, water infrastructure and the electricity grid using advanced ordinances including uranium coated munitions.

http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2011_09/20110906_110906-oup-update.pdf

 

 

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Gauche wrote:There were over

Gauche wrote:

There were over 8 thousand NATO air strikes targeting residential and government buildings, water infrastructure and the electricity grid using advanced ordinances including uranium coated munitions.

http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2011_09/20110906_110906-oup-update.pdf

 

Non-sequitor much?

Do you want me to quote back what you wrote, because your reply has squat to do with it.

And don't try the Islamophobic "They are going to have Sharia Law!" crap with me.  Go learn what Sharia is before demonstrating sheeplish ignorance.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Gauche

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Gauche wrote:

There were over 8 thousand NATO air strikes targeting residential and government buildings, water infrastructure and the electricity grid using advanced ordinances including uranium coated munitions.

http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2011_09/20110906_110906-oup-update.pdf

 

Non-sequitor much?

Do you want me to quote back what you wrote, because your reply has squat to do with it.

And don't try the Islamophobic "They are going to have Sharia Law!" crap with me.  Go learn what Sharia is before demonstrating sheeplish ignorance.

It has a lot to do with their country's infrastructure being destroyed. Will you look for some victory from me from the fact that something was left standing, because that's kind of pathetic?

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There is one thing that

There is one thing that everyone should have noticed, how long it took to take down Gadhafi, he had plenty of support. What is more despite being bombed by NATO they didn't abandon him. When he lost the capital it was obvious it was over yet they didn't abandon him. These are not the actions of people who are obeying out of fear. Gaddafi was popular with at least part of the population. Almost as proof you had that uprising in Tripoli a week ago.

 

It should be obvious that in Libya it was not as clear cut as "the people wanted him gone". I am not entirely sure this revolution is going to be worth it to the Libyan people, I mean look at Egypt there overthrow of the government went about as well as it could possibly go and they are running into trouble at the moment. There are still so many ways that any meaningful democracy could fail, until they get that democracy all the damage done has been for nothing in my book. Even if they do get that democray it will take decades to repair the damage done and more than likely even longer to pay back the loans (as you guys are saying people who are not effectively a government) they are trying to get. I know it is a pessimistic outlook but just look at the track record Africa has in this department.

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Gauche wrote:It has a lot to

Gauche wrote:

It has a lot to do with their country's infrastructure being destroyed. Will you look for some victory from me from the fact that something was left standing, because that's kind of pathetic?

Quite a lot was left standing.  Those 8,000 sorties weren't 8,000 passes with B-52s dropping giant gobs of bombs, like LBJ did to Vietnam during Rolling Thunder.  And the entire POINT of precision guided munitions is that they are ... precise.

Wars are a lot less nasty than they were just 60 or 70 years ago.  Be glad they had smart bombs.  If they had dumb gravity bombs all the infrastructure just might have been destroyed.

And you might want to make sure you're facing the correct direction on your bicycle -- back pedaling can be dangerous.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Quite a

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Quite a lot was left standing.  Those 8,000 sorties weren't 8,000 passes with B-52s dropping giant gobs of bombs, like LBJ did to Vietnam during Rolling Thunder.  And the entire POINT of precision guided munitions is that they are ... precise.

Wars are a lot less nasty than they were just 60 or 70 years ago.  Be glad they had smart bombs.  If they had dumb gravity bombs all the infrastructure just might have been destroyed.

And you might want to make sure you're facing the correct direction on your bicycle -- back pedaling can be dangerous.

I guess what's pathetic to me may be less to others. Yeah, there was some infrastructure left.

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Gauche wrote:FurryCatHerder

Gauche wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Quite a lot was left standing.  Those 8,000 sorties weren't 8,000 passes with B-52s dropping giant gobs of bombs, like LBJ did to Vietnam during Rolling Thunder.  And the entire POINT of precision guided munitions is that they are ... precise.

Wars are a lot less nasty than they were just 60 or 70 years ago.  Be glad they had smart bombs.  If they had dumb gravity bombs all the infrastructure just might have been destroyed.

And you might want to make sure you're facing the correct direction on your bicycle -- back pedaling can be dangerous.

I guess what's pathetic to me may be less to others. Yeah, there was some infrastructure left.

Sigh.

Please, turn around on your bicycle seat and pedal in the correct direction.

For the most part, the damage was either caused by Qaddafi, or was limited to those parts of the country where Qaddafi was the strongest.  There are open ports, cities with just as much running water and electricity as before, etc.  The TNC and NATO worked together to avoid completely destroying the country -- your claim -- as well as preventing Qaddafi from destroying what NATO wasn't targeting.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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 I'm trying to take you

 I'm trying to take you seriously but you haven't even address what I said in that post. There's a person in here who lives in Africa telling you Gaddafi had popular support but you don't want to address that. You want to talk about how much of their country was destroyed. Is it because you're trying to make an argument that their standard of living wasn't lowered by the loss of infrastructure? 

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Gauche wrote: I'm trying to

Gauche wrote:

 I'm trying to take you seriously but you haven't even address what I said in that post. There's a person in here who lives in Africa telling you Gaddafi had popular support but you don't want to address that. You want to talk about how much of their country was destroyed. Is it because you're trying to make an argument that their standard of living wasn't lowered by the loss of infrastructure? 

NOW I see why you were pedaling backwards -- you needed to go move the goalposts!

Your premise is that if the rebels had so much support, why did NATO have to destroy the entire country.  Well, NATO didn't destroy the entire country.  The UN mandate was to protect the rebels and civilian population from Qaddafi's army.  The NTC =and= NATO worked together.  The NTC has fire control people on the ground and helped to call in air strikes.  It wasn't like NATO said "Hey, let's go drop a f*ck load of bombs all over the place!"

Remember -- the NTC =wanted= NATO in the air.  They =thanked= NATO for being up there.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Gauche

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Gauche wrote:

 I'm trying to take you seriously but you haven't even address what I said in that post. There's a person in here who lives in Africa telling you Gaddafi had popular support but you don't want to address that. You want to talk about how much of their country was destroyed. Is it because you're trying to make an argument that their standard of living wasn't lowered by the loss of infrastructure? 

NOW I see why you were pedaling backwards -- you needed to go move the goalposts!

Your premise is that if the rebels had so much support, why did NATO have to destroy the entire country.  Well, NATO didn't destroy the entire country.  The UN mandate was to protect the rebels and civilian population from Qaddafi's army.  The NTC =and= NATO worked together.  The NTC has fire control people on the ground and helped to call in air strikes.  It wasn't like NATO said "Hey, let's go drop a f*ck load of bombs all over the place!"

Remember -- the NTC =wanted= NATO in the air.  They =thanked= NATO for being up there.

I said the entire country's infrastructure not the entire country and I cited sources showing that their water infrastructure was damaged badly enough to potentially cause a health crisis. That link alone already proved my point so I don't need to shift the goalpost anywhere. Less than 5% of the population of Libya lacked access to clean water and sanitation before the NATO bombing.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Africa/Libya-POVERTY-AND-WEALTH.html

What have you presented to demonstrate the truth of your assertions that their lives aren't significantly worse now, much less that they are better? I've seen nothing from you so far except bluster.

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Gauche is right, it would be

Gauche is right, it would be silly to argue that right now the lives of the majority of Libyans are better than they were before the war, but that is the very nature of war. The country now has the potential to improve again, possibly exceed where it was before the war in a couple of decades if things go very well, they might, they also might not. You cannot predict how things are going to turn out yet. But a whole lot of good potential is today even if things go right. This is why I say until they get that democracy and the right choices are made everything that has happened has been for nothing and a huge waste. And even if things go the right way and the country recovers this whole mess has been one big tragedy, not the glorious victory many people seem to think it is.

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