The Arrogance of Ignorance -- and a special offer to the RRS Community

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The Arrogance of Ignorance -- and a special offer to the RRS Community

Hello, Everyone --

 I have just posted a new essay on my blog that you might find interesting -- New Clothes for Shakespeare and Sondheim or: THE ARROGANCE OF IGNORANCE. 

 

 The essay spins off of a theme in my new novel, Traveling in Space, coming out next month from Blüroof Press (edit: now available; Amazon), which is calling it, “A unique science fiction first-contact novel from the point-of-view of the aliens; a 21st Century Gulliver's Travels with Homo sapiens as the Lilliputians.”  

 

  I would love for members of this community to read and, if they wish, comment on the essay, either on my blog or here.

 

 As Traveling in Space gives consideration to the topics of this group, and is deeply informed by my atheism, my publisher, Dave Doody (who by day is a senior flight engineer at JPL/NASA) asked me to extend an offer to the Rational Responders community. If you think you would be interested in reading Traveling in Space, Dave would be happy to make available to the first ten people who respond a free PDF download of the proof copy of the book.  All that he asks in return is that if you like the book enough to recommend it to people -- or even dislike it enough to warn them off -- please let us know how you have done this. Was it by real person-to-person word-of-mouth; emails, a post on your blog; postings on atheist/rationalist/secular websites and blog or SCI FI and fiction websites and blogs, etc.? 

 

To read my essay please go to:

 

http://stevenpaulleivasthisnthat.blogspot.com/2011/09/new-clothes-for-shakespeare-and.html

 


To get the link for the free download of a pdf of Traveling in Space, email me at
FirstFixxer@aol.com and put “TIS Preview - RR” in the subject line.

 

Best to all!

Steven Paul Leiva


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Welcome! I'd probably take

Welcome!
I'd probably take you up on the offer, it sounds interesting, but have no way to access a pdf file at this time. So I'll let someone who can access it take one of the ten offered copies.
I'll read the essay now though.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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An enjoyable read. I don't

An enjoyable read. I don't disagree with the conclusions.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Cool. I emailed and got a

Cool. I emailed and got a reply very quickly. Thanks, Steven!  I'm reading the proposed back-cover blurb, and it looks very intriguing. Can't wait to read it!

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A natural thanks

Thanks, Natural! I appreciate you interest and your comments.


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Thanks - and love to Canada

 Many thanks, Vastet, for the kind comment!

I am very proud to live in a country that boarders such a wonderful country as Canada!  I use to spend a lot of time in Montreal producing shows for the JUST FOR LAUGHS COMEDY FESTIVAL. Have spent some time in Toronto and Vancouver as well.  One of my dreams is to take that train trip West to East across Canada. I just recorded an internet radio interview with Peter Anthony Holder, who is also a newscaster out of Montreal, on Traveling in Space.  Peter's an incredible gentleman, funny and always interesting. If you haven't heard his show, The Stuph File, you should check it out.  http://peteranthonyholder.com/

My interview will be on October 10

Steven Paul Leiva


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May I ask, Steven, what your

May I ask, Steven, what your experience has been getting published?

Although I haven't really gone anywhere with it yet (partly due to ADHD, unfortunately; partly due to excessive self-doubts), I've been 'planning' to write SF since I was 12, and I still am. I know that's a common line of a lot of people who aren't really serious, but whatever, it's still a major life goal of mine.

So, I'm curious, did you try to go with a major SF publisher, or did you already know Bluroof, or something? What kind of circulation are you expecting? Will I be able to find it in Canadian bookstores (aside from online)?

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I'll keep my eye out for the

I'll keep my eye out for the interview.

To be honest, if you can afford it and have the time to, I'd recommend going by car. There's a lot of things you'll never see on the train, and need a car for. I've driven cross-country a couple of times. Going through Southern Saskatchewan is probably the least interesting, but all the other provinces have interesting areas to spend a day or two.

I also second Naturals question. I'm not nearly ready to get anything published, but someday, hopefully...

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Read your essay, and the

Read your essay, and the responses...

Excellent.

Tiny quibble with "deeply informed by my atheism". 

I would say just "deeply informed'. Perhaps by your wide experience and research.

Your atheism has prevented you from being deeply misinformed by religious doctrines/claims...

I would be interested in reading the book on my iPad.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Sounds interesting, I sent a

Sounds interesting, I sent a request for the link to your email.

 

Thanks


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Quibble and kindness

Bob -- I like your quibble very much!

And thanks for the kind words, they are much appreciated.

And I love your list of oxymorons. In regard to "Business Ethics," may I suggest my essay, Nothing Personal, It’s Just Business: On the Amorality of Business, which is on my blog at: http://stevenpaulleivasthisnthat.blogspot.com/2011/02/nothing-personal-its-just-business-on.html  You might find it interesting, possibly amusing.

Hope you enjoy Traveling in Space!

Steven Paul Leiva


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On publishing for Natural

Natural --  Let's talk about writing first.  Put pen to paper or fingertips to keyboard and start writing now. Write anything, just to get into the habit. Write with this in mind -- the joy of art is in the doing.  So write for the joy.  Concentrate on the self and not the doubt.  Realize that your writing does not have to be good right off the bat, may well not be, but that will not diminish the joy of self expression!  I believe there are only two ways to learn to write -- by reading and writing.  I'll bet you you have the first locked. Now just do the second.  What you might try is dictating into a tape or digital recorder, then type up what you've dictated and see what you've got. Have fun with it, be an actor, go crazy!

As to publishing, no I didn't go to a major publisher. That's a very frustrating route these days.  I worked in the film industry for many years having fallen in love with animation, an art I can't personally do. So I became a promoter then a producer (I produced the animation for Space Jam, worked with Chuck jones and Brad Bird, etc.) But in getting involved in this I put off my writing ambitions for 20 years.  When I finally got back into it I wrote and sold a few screenplays, but my concentration was on fiction. I  got my first book published through a small POD publisher in 2003. That book and it's sequel have now been published as e-books (with the first one also published as an audio-book) through Crossroad Press, a small writer-run publishing company. It was a pleasure dealing with a small press, much more personal. Nonetheless, it is all on the writers shoulders to market his books.

The publishing story of Traveling in Space is by far my best experience.  I had sent the manuscript to a new friend, Dave Doody, who is a senior flight engineer for JPL/NASA, in charge of flying the Cassini spacecraft that is studying Saturn. As he works with scientists every day, I want his opinion about my take on scientist in the book.  Dave's a very busy guy, and I didn't hear back from him for quite a while. But when I did (early this year), he not only told me that he like my take on scientists, but that he was going to start a small publishing company using the services of Amazon to publish good quality trade paperbacks and ebooks -- and would I mind if he published my book.  As you can imagine, I did not mind at all.  Not only is Dave a brilliant man, but a hell of a creative and nice guy -- he loves my book.  That's worth gold to an author.  We've had a ball putting all this together.  I'm also excited that he allowing me to have three interior illustrations. They are being done by our cover artist, Todd Cronin, who worked on Space Jam and also an award-winning animated short that I provided a voice for called The Indescribable Nth.

So the message is -- find whatever route you can, luck will play into it, as will being in the right place at the right time, none of which you can really control -- only take advantage of.

But what you can control is the joy of doing writing.  So, sit right down an write yourself a love letter -- whether it be a poem, short story or novel!

Best in all things, 

Steven Paul Leiva


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 I am a huge sci-fi fan and

 I am a huge sci-fi fan and seeing ourselves from the alien point of view is my most favorite theme in the books. And my Kindle is hungry. So now I'm risking missing the train, please be considerate Smiling

 

So basically, I think most people are willfully ignorant. They are not interested and you need interest to cure ignorance. Nothing else is strong enough, than interest in truth, whatever it turns out to be. But people can be educated, because they're driven to conform with the whatever is happening to them. They're malleable enough to accept evolution and hygiene in countries, where it's a standard, even though left alone they wouldn't keep with it. (the hygiene, at least)

But even if I'm not really interested, I can appreciate second-handed facts about the subject. I don't understand Shakespeare's english at all, but I know he created some most common english words today. As for classical music or whatever, there are supposed to be some interesting mathemathical variations in it, though it sounds like chaotic crap. (maybe that's why)

The interest in learning is something we should cultivate. Intellect is impartial, it bridges the gaps of likes and dislikes. Forced learning kills interest. Intellect knows, that false beliefs are worthless, so all beliefs must be questioned. We can mourn for lost beliefs, but we should rejoice for a gained truth. And each one of us can work as a grain of sand in filter of truth, stopping what we found false and letting through what we found as true and why. Now, that is a good subject for education of masses.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon --  You make

Luminon --  You make excellent points, especially, "Forced learning kills interest."  What should be taught in school is the joy of learning, but with teaching for the test it's all become nothing but a huge task. The joy is left out. A pity.

If you ever do want to try some Shakespeare, may I suggest a method. First pick a play that is fairly straightforward in plot -- I would suggest Hamlet or Julius Caesar.  Then get yourself an annotated paperback that defines words we find archaic. Go to the library and get a good audio recording of the play, then read along as you listen to it.  When you read the words while hearing good actors perform then you will find that you will understand everything much better because the actors will give you the context and color you can't get struggling through the language.  If you find that helpful, follow it up with a video of the same play, adding the physical performances of the actors, which add another layer of understanding. After all this you can sometimes go back and read the text alone and start to feel the beauty of the language and the wisdom of his thoughts.

Shakespeare is incredibly human. Indeed, Harold Bloom credit  him with the "Invention of the human."  But, because of the distance in time and language, he does take work. But I think my method is both fun and illuminating.

But never, never worry if you don't understand everything when you are reading or experiencing Shakespeare for pleasure -- none of us do, that's being left to scholars. But there is so much beauty and human understanding there, that Shakespeare is much like science in this fact -- there is much joy of discovery involved.

Best regards,

Steven Paul Leiva


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This book is bloody

This book is bloody brilliant, anyone else reading it?  I haven't been able to look away now up to page 60, now I have to go to work, damb. 

 

Edit:  Client cancelled, back to reading...  I have to say I love the angle of this book.  I definetly recommend it you guys should read it.


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email sent. And I see you

email sent.

 

And I see you are a nerd.  Welcome to the club.  I build my own computers.  Mainly because warranty service has proved useless.  My father did the phone systems for all of the largest hospitals in North America.  As far as NASA goes, it is of course a big place.  As a kid, my next door neighbor was the electrical engineer who made the boards for the cameras used on the moon.  They are nothing by today's standards but back then, video cameras were large and heavy.  Also, a friend's dad did the cameras on both Voyager probes.  A couple of years ago, I ended up on the phone with him and he said that they were really more like photographers light meters and all of those great pics we saw required a great deal of computer time to build.

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p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

OK, got the book. Looking at it now. The introductions are looking like you took a rather different road than most, although I have read a few things that were along those lines.

 

Harry Turtledove, David Brin and Greg Bear have all done that with captivating results.


Natural, it is obvious that you are a talented writer. But I have to agree with the OP on this one. I have a few pieces self published on my own. You need to get started. If you don't have an outline already in mind, then fan fiction could be a start for you. There are a few authors who try to forbid it but most realize that it is coming from folks who love their work and pay for everything that comes out.

 

I have a series set in the Marvel comics universe. Specifically the sub-universe of the 70's TV series for The Incredible Hulk. I have totally ripped the universe apart and it is on the internet. Stan Lee has yet to raise a fuss.

 

Of course, he could not use my material even if he wanted to make me rich because I have done too much to the world. In the opening story, Jack McGee finds out who the hulk is but not before becoming a muntant monster himself. He has hulk level telekinesis but he can't control it.

 

So he is now on the run with David/Bruce. The secret government agency who kidnapped him and did non-consent medical experiments on him wants him back. Adding to the complexity, there are multiple secret agencies making people with super powers and most of the resulting people tend toward moral ambiguity.

 

One is Steven King's “The Shop” and another is as yet unnamed but British. The Brits made a coercive telepath. On one mission, he was being tortured whe he broadcast a stop order. Everyone within several hundred feet died. When the SAS showed up to pull him out, they could not get anywhere near him without getting in the field. They had to call America to get a Shop trained empath just to get an IV line in him. Now those two are permanently psychically bonded. They got wind of the experiment that gave Jack McGee his powers and are now trying to chase him down as well.

 

Because I am already series crossing, the door is open to other ideas. I am thinking of having Sam from Quantuum Leap switch places with David. Major poetry on that one because they were both research scientists who used themselves as experimental subjects without checking with anyone.

 

In episode two, there is a scene where Jack is asking David how the hulk came about. When David tells Jack that it was an accidental overdose of radiation, Jack, being the snarky ass that he is, responds that it was obviously an accident. After all, nobody would sit in a chair and do it intentionally.

 

This is major stress for David because that is exactly the stupid stunt that he did. If David gets too much stress, we all know what can happen and I wrote it in first person perspective. From both him and the hulk.

 

Also, I stand accused in the fan community of overusing orange juice to treat clinical dehydrations. It wasn't my falut though. It came up in a valid context and I had forgotten that it was what David drank the morning after the first hulk incident.

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 Thanks for being here

 Thanks for being here PASOB.  Welcome aboard.

 

 

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 Thanks, Sapient -- I love

 Thanks, Sapient -- I love being among intelligent people!


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Nicely done.

 

 

And how pleasing to have some bright spark come along and immediately underscore the veracity of your arguments. I struggle with getting across what I see as the fundamental honesty of the scientific process to members of my christian family who always seem to be reaching around behind it looking for some thread to pull on behalf of naked assertion. "But how do you know you know?" they'll cry. "There - that's where He is!"

In my rather limited mind I try to elevate the three words I feel lie at the centre of my own learning I don't know but god people face the pressure of making a decision based on available, often non-evidence, and though they deny this is true, it appears to me the only reason a monotheist would rush to conclusions based on contrived probabilities would be in case something bad happened and they suddenly died and found themselves before god on judgement day - utterly defenseless. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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 Hey, NoMoreCrazyPeople!

 Hey, NoMoreCrazyPeople!  Many thanks for your more than kind first reaction to Traveling in Space. I was thrilled to read your words -- and my publisher was double thrilled.  Indeed he as a question for you, so is it possible for you to email at FirstFixxer@aol.com so that I may convey his question?

 

Again, many thanks!

Steven Paul Leiva


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PASOB wrote: Hey,

PASOB wrote:

 Hey, NoMoreCrazyPeople!  Many thanks for your more than kind first reaction to Traveling in Space. I was thrilled to read your words -- and my publisher was double thrilled.  Indeed he as a question for you, so is it possible for you to email at FirstFixxer@aol.com so that I may convey his question?

 

Again, many thanks!

Sure, I just finished the book, I'll send convey away.


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The Ardent Atheist

Just wanted to let everybody here know that I will be a guest on The Ardent Atheist, Emery Emery's  internet radio show on October 26th talking about Traveling in Space and matters of atheism, faith, rationality and -- of course -- it's opposite!

If you haven't checked out this show yet, I highly recommend it. It covers many of the issues of interest to all of us, with the added benefit that, being hosted by a stand up comic and with many top flight comics as guests -- it's damn funny!

 

You can check it out here= http://ardentatheist.com/

 

Best to all,

Steven Paul Leiva


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:This

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

This book is bloody brilliant, anyone else reading it?  I haven't been able to look away now up to page 60, now I have to go to work, damb. 

 

Edit:  Client cancelled, back to reading...  I have to say I love the angle of this book.  I definetly recommend it you guys should read it.

Just finished reading. Wow, this book is great and so... truthful. There's so much reality in it that it almost isn't fiction. A great opener of eyes Smiling But of course I liked the light-hearted (detached?) tone that's there most of the time, reminded me of R. A. Heinlein. It is a wonderful gift for everyone who's even beginning to think critically, or just likes sci-fi. Or might begin. What a wonderful way to show them an alien point of view.

Usually I read books that are more "psycho" or extreme, dealing not only with technology, but also with taboos and extremes... It's a good experience to read a book concerned with reality of what is, again. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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I finally got an App for my

I finally got an App for my iPad that can display books in PDF format in a convenient reading presentation. Surprised it didn't just 'do it' but the other eBook Apps all want the the files in more dedicated eBook formats.

So now I can read it whenever I have a free time, without have to even carry my laptop.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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repeatability

PASOB it seems that your blog got a theist infection. Tell that "Chris J." to come here, we'll take care of him... Evil

 

BobSpence1, way an ipad? A e-ink device would be better...


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Many thanks, Luminon!

 Many thanks, Luminon, for the kind words.  I am thrilled you liked Traveling in Space!  I will soon be posting the amazon link to the book, so if you are willing, it would be great if you could post a reader review on that page. It's not up yet as we are waiting for the last illustration for the book to come in from illustrator Todd Cronin.

Again, many thanks, and many kind regards,

 

Steven

Steven Paul Leiva


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A cool pad, man!

 Bob --

 

I look forward to coming to you "pad."  Now if this was the 1960s, that would have a whole different meaning!

 

Best,

 

Steven

Steven Paul Leiva


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luca wrote:PASOB it seems

luca wrote:

PASOB it seems that your blog got a theist infection. Tell that "Chris J." to come here, we'll take care of him... Evil

 

BobSpence1, way an ipad? A e-ink device would be better...

I have absolutely no problem reading stuff on my Pad rather than on real paper-and-ink, so how could an eInk device look better than a real book?

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BobSpence1 wrote:luca

BobSpence1 wrote:
luca wrote:
PASOB it seems that your blog got a theist infection. Tell that "Chris J." to come here, we'll take care of him... Evil

 

BobSpence1, way an ipad? A e-ink device would be better...

I have absolutely no problem reading stuff on my Pad rather than on real paper-and-ink, so how could an eInk device look better than a real book?

Sorry, I don't understand. I never talked about paper, just e-ink, and the ipad screen is an lcd... If you say you read books, why do not take a e-ink device? If you do other things, then I have nothing to object.


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luca wrote:BobSpence1

luca wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:
luca wrote:
PASOB it seems that your blog got a theist infection. Tell that "Chris J." to come here, we'll take care of him... Evil

 

BobSpence1, way an ipad? A e-ink device would be better...

I have absolutely no problem reading stuff on my Pad rather than on real paper-and-ink, so how could an eInk device look better than a real book?

Sorry, I don't understand. I never talked about paper, just e-ink, and the ipad screen is an lcd... If you say you read books, why do not take a e-ink device? If you do other things, then I have nothing to object.

I just don't need another device to carry around, which does less, can't properly display color images, or video (which is increasingly being included in e-books and magazines), and is almost as good as ink on paper in displaying print. I do read books, if that is all that is available, but I don't prefer them. Much easier to have an iPad with me which not only lets me read books, but watch videos in decent quality, look at and show others my photos, etc. 

The only things e-ink has going for it is the ability to be read easily in full sunlight, and lower battery consumption. Neither are insignificant, but don't compensate for the other limitations, for me anyway.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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PASOB: Sure, post the link,

PASOB: Sure, post the link, I'll gladly write a nice review for you.
 

BobSpence1 wrote:

luca wrote:

PASOB it seems that your blog got a theist infection. Tell that "Chris J." to come here, we'll take care of him... Evil

BobSpence1, way an ipad? A e-ink device would be better...

I have absolutely no problem reading stuff on my Pad rather than on real paper-and-ink, so how could an eInk device look better than a real book?

E-ink devices are popular among beach-going folks. Made a lot of difference in the summer, suntanning was never before so much fun. E-ink is also pleasant to read from, like paper.  

I-pad is certainly the best choice, for those who haven't already invested into several different devices. (laptop, mp3 player, Kindle) I'm not very impressed with the latest generation of Kindle, it's not a bad choice, but still the same thing, no Mirasol display or anything. It's a heavily downsized version of K3, for good and bad, mostly for good. Only the page flip buttons are harder to reach, the touchscreen model will be in a month and the idiotic library management is still there. I won't think anything bad about anyone for reading on a different device. 

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Right, everyone has different needs. I use andriod myself. From what I gather, the screen is similar to an ipad. But the form factor is one that I can carry in a pocket.

 

It has many apps stores, so I am free from apple deciding what is legitimate. It can be turned off and not just put in standby, so the battery life is really good. It has a 500GB hard drive. It can play music in DRM free formats such as OGG, which is important to me as my 20+year collection of CDs was already ripped to that format.

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PASOB: You have an error on page 164. Where Shiela, Lief and Mr. Honeymoon are talking, you have it down that like poles of magnets attract and opposite repel. You might was to fix that before it goes to the printer.

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Luminon wrote:PASOB: Sure,

Luminon wrote:

PASOB: Sure, post the link, I'll gladly write a nice review for you.
 

BobSpence1 wrote:

luca wrote:

PASOB it seems that your blog got a theist infection. Tell that "Chris J." to come here, we'll take care of him... Evil

BobSpence1, way an ipad? A e-ink device would be better...

I have absolutely no problem reading stuff on my Pad rather than on real paper-and-ink, so how could an eInk device look better than a real book?

E-ink devices are popular among beach-going folks. Made a lot of difference in the summer, suntanning was never before so much fun. E-ink is also pleasant to read from, like paper.  

I-pad is certainly the best choice, for those who haven't already invested into several different devices. (laptop, mp3 player, Kindle) I'm not very impressed with the latest generation of Kindle, it's not a bad choice, but still the same thing, no Mirasol display or anything. It's a heavily downsized version of K3, for good and bad, mostly for good. Only the page flip buttons are harder to reach, the touchscreen model will be in a month and the idiotic library management is still there. I won't think anything bad about anyone for reading on a different device. 

I just had a look at the book on my iPad with the sun shining straight onto the screen. Perfectly readable.

Now tell me why I should get an e-Ink device again?

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 Thanks, Answers in Gene!

 Thanks, Answers in Gene!  We caught that just last week, and it has been changed. both I and my publisher -- a JPL/NASA engineer  -- we were a bit shamefaced over it.  But, we are, after all, only human, and we had a good laugh over our frailty. 

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I could not read this book

I could not read this book on an e-ink Kindle. A lower res, physically smaller screen displaying those pages would be hopeless for me.

I would have to enlarge them, and then scroll on each page. It would be better even on my iPhone4, with the help of slightlly stronger than my usual spectacles, since it has more pixels than the Kindle.

 

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ciuccia

 

Quote:
I just had a look at the book on my iPad with the sun shining straight onto the screen. Perfectly readable.

Now tell me why I should get an e-Ink device again?

Can do. E-ink has higher resolution, much higher contrast, much higher battery duration. Colors? Who cares? It's a book. Again, if you want to look at photos and videos, the e-ink is not for you, but for just books (and magazines, eventually) e-ink is superior in every aspect. Obviously I'm not talking about a 6" display, I would want at least 8" one, preferably 9" or more.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PocketBook-Pro-902-new-9-7-e-Ink-E-Reader-Wi-Fi-/260848331590

I don't know if you ever gave a look to a e-ink screen, but it feels 'natural', it's not like watching an lcd.

 

 


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luca wrote: Quote:I just

luca wrote:

 

Quote:
I just had a look at the book on my iPad with the sun shining straight onto the screen. Perfectly readable.

Now tell me why I should get an e-Ink device again?

Can do. E-ink has higher resolution, much higher contrast, much higher battery duration. Colors? Who cares? It's a book. Again, if you want to look at photos and videos, the e-ink is not for you, but for just books (and magazines, eventually) e-ink is superior in every aspect. Obviously I'm not talking about a 6" display, I would want at least 8" one, preferably 9" or more.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PocketBook-Pro-902-new-9-7-e-Ink-E-Reader-Wi-Fi-/260848331590

I don't know if you ever gave a look to a e-ink screen, but it feels 'natural', it's not like watching an lcd.

 

OK, that's better than the Kindle, and 17% larger pixel density than my iPad, at 1200 X 825, compared to iPad at 1024 x 768. Not a dramatically higher resolution, but probably enough to be noticeable.

The contrast of e-ink was originally not so good, but I understand it is now comparable to print on good paper, but that really is not a factor that concerns me much.

The whole point of e-ink is to be as good or better than high quality ink on real paper. I have read many books. So I have an idea what they are supposed to look like...

Another 'problem' claimed for LCD displays is flicker. Quality, properly adjusted LCD displays do not flicker to any noticeable extent. I can detect absolutely no problem with mine either on my notebook or my iPad.

I am not denying that that e-ink is great for reading books, maybe with only line-drawing, black-and-white illustrations.

The release version of the book referred to in this thread is going to have illustrations, so that would be a negative for current e-ink.

Some classics I have on my iPad - the Complete Works of Shakespeare, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, for example - include color images, contemporary portraits of Shakespeare in one case, illustrations from the story in the other case, which would not be good in 16 level gray-scale, I don't think.

People do claim eyestrain from backlit LCD. I have never been aware of this personally.

As I said, my iPad is perfectly readable in direct sunlight.

All I need in a reader is that it be readable without noticeable difficulty or distraction under all conditions I may be using it, which this iPad is. Throw in quality picture display, and it is fine for any book or magazine. Throw in video, it also allows me to watch movies in good quality and sound (with headphones) while riding a bus, train, or plane. And then I can browse the Web. All without carrying yet another device. 

And 10-hour battery life is certainly less than a dedicated e-ink reader, but not a big practical problem for me. Pretty much everything I want to have with me on travelling needs recharging - cell-phone, camera, laptop - so I will normally have access to power at least often enough to keep me going. 

I don't want to make a big issue of this, just making it clear that my iPad suits me fine for reading, as well as all the other things it does.

Color capable e-readers are now my preferred medium for books, since they combine the features of printed books with searchability. My second choice would be audio-books, since I can listen while walking, cycling, shopping, etc. They aren't currently searchable, so that is my main problem with them. If I want to check up on some earlier event in the narrative for some details I may have missed or forgotten, e-books are the best, audio the worst.

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You guys can say what you

You guys can say what you want, but books are superior to technological variants of them, and I'll keep buying them. I don't care if you can put an entire library, your favourite music, and a bunch of video on your Walkman. When the battery dies and there's no way to charge it, or a problem wipes the memory, or a bug corrupts your files, I'll still be reading my books. Sticking out tongue

Books are easier to read too, for me at least.

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Quote:
I don't want to make a big issue of this, just making it clear that my iPad suits me fine for reading, as well as all the other things it does.
Neither am I.

Simply I had the possibility to use an e-ink device and a ipad, I found both of them very impressive (maybe it's because I don't have in my hands these "modern devices", don't know), and now I can draw my conclusions. In the book reading business, e-ink could be overtook only by oleds. E-ink currently has no colors, but trust me it has absolutely no problems in displaying photos, just saying (the relatively low grays are not a problem, also). You can see a picture of an e-ink displaying a little drawing on the wiki page. It seems that hanvon and e-ink triton are trying to fill the color "gap".

Obviously since on an e-ink reader the page takes seconds to turn, their are not so searchable. Designers are trying to address this problem displaying more pages contemporaneously.

For me, anyway, e-ink readers are optimum because I don't care about internet and videos, I don't wanna listen to anything nor I can endure the pain the headphones make me feel in my ears, so it's out of the question, and because of the contrast and high resolution they can display some of the most complicated or worse designed books in history (something I care), and last they don't heat.

--------------

Quote:
..., or a bug corrupts your files, I'll still be reading my books. Sticking out tongue

HOHOHO! Bugs can "corrupt" your books too, you know? Also time, fire, wearing, mold and dirt... So you're not safe, sorry.Sticking out tongue

Also you don't really *need* to buy an ebook, a little bit like paper books...


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There are many cases when I

There are many cases when I have been reading a long and somewhat complex narrative in a paper book, and I would have given almost anything to be able to do a word search through the text to remind myself exactly what some character had done a chapter or more back, so I could make sense of a point in the narrative I am currently reading.

E-books are the only current medium that offers the possibility of that, and that is a big thing for me. I need more than the typical indexes that some books offer - including the books I got so annoyed about. The index was better than nothing, but wasn't nearly comprehensive enough to help in all but a few cases.

 

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deformazione professionale

BobSpence1 wrote:
There are many cases when I have been reading a long and somewhat complex narrative in a paper book, and I would have given almost anything to be able to do a word search through the text to remind myself exactly what some character had done a chapter or more back, so I could make sense of a point in the narrative I am currently reading.

...

I take notes while I'm reading. I have always a piece of paper and a pen to write on things. Eye-wink Cool


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Well, everybody has been

Well, everybody has been having a great discussion on the relative merits of e-books and tree books.  What bobSpence has written about being able to search back mirrors one of my long time frustrations, and is one -- of many  -- reasons why I love my Kindle, even as I read books on it while sitting by my substantial library of books.

I wrote about many of the feeling revealed here in my blog entry 

 

A Book By Any Other Cover: on E-books and "Real" Books

I anybody would be interested to read it you can find it at:   http://stevenpaulleivasthisnthat.blogspot.com/2010/11/book-by-any-other-cover-on-e-books-and.html

 

 

In any case, I'm happy that Traveling in Space will be available as both a trade paperback, a PDF e-book and , a little later, as a mobi for the Kindle.  As I point out in my blog, the ultimate thing is the content, not the delivery system.

Best to you all,

 

Steven Paul Leiva

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luca wrote:BobSpence1

luca wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:
There are many cases when I have been reading a long and somewhat complex narrative in a paper book, and I would have given almost anything to be able to do a word search through the text to remind myself exactly what some character had done a chapter or more back, so I could make sense of a point in the narrative I am currently reading.

...

I take notes while I'm reading. I have always a piece of paper and a pen to write on things. Eye-wink Cool

I was not talking about physical searching, but electronic searching, which would not require me to turn each page while searching - that would be like searching a 'real' book. It just goes straight to display each page in turn which contains the search text.

An e-ink device should in principle be just as good as any other e-reader.

And I don't get what problem you have with headphones. Are you referring to the little 'buds' you put in your ears? They can be physically uncomfortable.

But I use a pair of Sony 'phones which cover the ears and are of pretty good quality, no different for my ears than listening to real speech or music. Except when cycling, because I wear a protective helmet, so I use a a pair of ear-buds which sit in my ears fairly loosely, so they are not physically uncomfortable, and the sound is ok, altho lacking in bass notes a bit. But fine for listening to speech, and I mostly listen to podcasts then.

The way you speak about new e-ink devices, they are much better than real books, so does that mean you won't be able to read paper books, knowing that they will look much better on such devices? I don't care, all I want, as I said, is that the screen is comfortably readable. As PASOB said, and I agree, " the ultimate thing is the content, not the delivery system."

EDIT: As for resolution, although it is a small screen, the resolution (pixel density) on my iPhone4 is much higher than any current e-ink device I am aware of.

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And I have just found time

Stephen,

I have just found time to read the first chapter of your book on my iPad.

I am under a bit of pressure to get some software done at the moment, but it has now give me another thing to do when I need a break.

I do like it. A nicely different approach. Couldn't help wondering what the pictures will be like...

 

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luca,I am also curious about

luca,

I am also curious about 'contrast'. 

A site pushing the latest advances in e-ink, http://www.eink.com/,  claims they have now reached a contrast ratio of 10:1:

Quote:

E Ink Pearl creates a dramatic increase in contrast giving eReaders a contrast ratio close to a paperback book.

?? Almost as good as a paper-back book??

LCD displays are claimed to give static contrast ratios of 500:1 or more, when measured more realistically than some manufacturers do, which lets them quote 1000's to 1.

Unlike e-ink, backlit LCD contrast ratios are directly affected by the brightness of the light hitting them, so in direct sunlight they can be very low.

They are also affected by reflections from the glass covering them, which can be very distracting, altho the latest ones have ways to minimize the problem.

They also get high ratios when set to be much brighter than a white surface, such as a piece of paper, lit by room light. If you turn the brightness down to a level more comparable to the level of light reflected by a white surface, they will be lower than the 'specs'.

Even so, in ordinary room light, they can get much more contrast than e-ink, but the absence of reflection may be what you are responding to.

And the latest resolution of e-ink displays is quoted as "exceeding 200 dpi". My iPad is 132 dpi, but my iPhone is 326 dpi.

So e-ink is neither particularly high-contrast or the highest resolution.

I think what gives it the 'look' that appeals to you is its lack of a shiny reflective surface, and the contrast it does have is not affected by the ambient light. And I can understand and appreciate that. It's just that it doesn't worry me, as I have already said, as long as I can read the screen easily.

[ADDED] I am genuinely curious what it is about e-ink displays which so strongly appeals to some people, such as yourself, and why some people find backlit screens, such as LCDs, so hard to read for prolonged periods. I do recall now having seen an original Kindle, and thought it looked nice and clear, but it didn't strike me as clearly better to read from in any way than a good LCD display at a proper brightness setting, at least in the store lighting situation. Sort of like a book with slightly gray paper. I know they are improving significantly, so I should at least have another look, just so I know what I am talking about.

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x

 

Quote:
I was not talking about physical searching, but electronic searching

I did understand that. 
Quote:
And I don't get what problem you have with headphones. Are you referring to the little 'buds' you put in your ears? They can be physically uncomfortable.
I have problems with every kind of headphones, in or out of ear. Their is no way in how they cannot ache. Maybe not instantly, but they *will* cause me pain. But that's just me, in some way. 
Quote:
The way you speak about new e-ink devices, they are much better than real books,
I don't say that. 
Quote:
the resolution (pixel density) on my iPhone4 is much higher than any current e-ink device I am aware of.
Quote:
And the latest resolution of e-ink displays is quoted as "exceeding 200 dpi". My iPad is 132 dpi, but my iPhone is 326 dpi.
Probably that's true, but the iphone4's screen is pretty unique. In fact no other device has a resolution of the iphone4, so it's an "anomaly". 
Quote:
A site pushing the latest advances in e-ink, http://www.eink.com/,  claims they have now reached a contrast ratio of 10:1:
That's obviously absurd. Go look how e-ink works, you'll see that e-ink has sort the same contrast as paper, simply by definition. 
Quote:
I think what gives it the 'look' that appeals to you is its lack of a shiny reflective surface,
That's not very positive of you saying that of me, I think.

 


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Ink on papar is much lower

Ink on papar is much lower contrast than LCD backlit displays in all but the brightest light. Contrast is mainly affected by the blackness of the blacks. At least in the technical use of the term, referring to the ratio between the lightness of the whites and the blacks.

You don't need the blackness of the ink to be all that deep for it to perfectly readable, and below a level of 10% of the reflectance of the blank paper, it becomes unnoticeable, except in large areas of ink, not in fine lines like in printed characters.

That is why I said you must be referring to something else about the way ink-on-papar, or good e-ink, looks, to say it is 'high contrast'. And why I initially assumed you were saying e-ink is higher contrast than real ink on paper.

The problem with LCD backlit displays in sunlight is not so much their contrast, just that they are often simply nowhere near bright enough to be usable in such conditions. IOW it is the brightness of the white in a backlit display that is less than that of blank white paper in bright conditions like direct sunlight, that can make it harder to read, not the 'contrast'. That, I assume, must be what you are referring to, and why the misunderstanding.

'Contrast' can often be used in different and confusing ways. In old-style TV's, the 'contrast' control often had most obvious effect on the maximum brightness of the screen.

I can use my iPad in the sun, but my laptop is harder. 

 

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for once in their life...

luca wrote:
Quote:
I think what gives it the 'look' that appeals to you is its lack of a shiny reflective surface,

That's not very positive of you saying that of me, I think.
First, I was wrong with that. Sorry, I was in a hurry and did read wrong.

 

Quote:
Ink on papar is much lower contrast than LCD backlit displays in all but the brightest light.
I honestly find it a little strange. It may be, but it's also true the shape of the pixel is an important factor. I don't want to shift the argument, simply I think it's sort of a ΔxΔp... A Heisenberg readability hahaha... I mean I like a certain resolution and a certain contrast, nothing more.

 

Quote:
You don't need the blackness of the ink to be all that deep for it to perfectly readable, and below a level of 10% of the reflectance of the blank paper, it becomes unnoticeable, except in large areas of ink, not in fine lines like in printed characters.
I think it helps a lot. The fake black of an lcd is pathetic. A led retroilluminated lcd is obviously better.

Quote:
The problem with LCD backlit displays in sunlight is not so much their contrast, just that they are often simply nowhere near bright enough to be usable in such conditions. IOW it is the brightness of the white in a backlit display that is less than that of blank white paper in bright conditions like direct sunlight, that can make it harder to read, not the 'contrast'. That, I assume, must be what you are referring to, and why the misunderstanding.
I feel I need to start from the beginning...

  • I do not claim e-ink is better than printed paper (although it may happen);
  • In effect I have had problems with lcd in the sun, but as shown not all lcds become unreadable out in the wild;
  • I hate the retroillumination; that's one on the main reason I like e-ink;
  • I love the definition of the edges of a e-ink and crt displays, and hate for that reason most of the lcds;
  • In the end I really do not even know what it is the contrast of e-ink, I think that after have seen one I don't need to know, and probably because of how it's made it isn't really necessary, because it's needed only for crappy, panel backlit, lcds.

This should be everything. Just one time to be sure: I extremely dislike the black of lcds, and extremely like the black ink of books, and I think it helps a lot the readability.

With this last edit I just want to conclusively add that it's probably impossible for a display of any type to beat books made with characters, simply because that technology is not dot-based. Something like this:

Quote:
'Contrast' can often be used in different and confusing ways. In old-style TV's, the 'contrast' control often had most obvious effect on the maximum brightness of the screen.
Also, you can be pretty sure the contrast declared on an lcd screen is a lie. With a crt that was never a problem. Instead with the lcd it is, so they try to do the test that gets the higher contrast and write that on the labels. Often it's the dynamic test that gives the higher results, instead for rgb values that are near between themselves lcd is bad. On the other hand, book usually are black and white, so manifacturers should have a point, there.

 


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Fascinating, and puzzling.

Fascinating, and puzzling. My experience is just so different.

When LCD computer screens first appeared, on laptops, they were relatively low resolution. One of the things which bugged me about them was that the pixels were so crisply defined, I was distracted by the pattern of sharply defined rectangles of different colors, made worse by the visibility of the black mask between each individual LCD (red/green/blue) element.

On a CRT, the dots are fuzzy, and there is no black mask, so the pattern was less noticeable to me. But the overall softness of a CRT was, and is, noticeable to me. Once LCDs reached better resolution, they are my preferred display.

To me, CRT's are definitely inferior to any but the crappiest modern LCD's in every way. Less crisp, they all flicker, especially when you move your head - you see the effects of the top-to-bottom scanning. They have no better inherent contrast than LCD's.

I have just been looking at parts of my laptop screens with a 15 X magnifier, and at various printed documents I have around me. I just don't see any problem - the black ink on the paper is definitely not as black as the black on my screen, so that is a non-issue, to me anyway. My screen is definitely higher contrast than the printed paper. That is what my eyes tell me, anyway, confirmed by closer examination with the magnifier.

The sharpness of the character definition is clearly relevant, of course - no argument there. That was so apparent to me when I went from my iPhone 3GS to the iPhone 4, with literally twice the linear resolution, ie each single pixel replaced by four smaller ones. The smallest text on the map display suddenly became easily readable, where it had been difficult before. They also seem to have improved the contrast and color - my photos looked dramatically better on the screen.

If the screen is physically larger, the pixels-per-inch doesn't need to be as high. It is really more about the total resolution of the screen. The iPhone4 is 960 X 640.

That e-ink device you pointed at is 1200 x 825, which is less than 20% more res than my iPad, not in the ball-park of the doubling I got on the iPhone.

The only thing e-ink has inherently going for it is readability in bright light, like sunlight. Apart from much lower battery consumption, but that does not affect the reading experience itself.

Once the dots get small enough, in any technology, comparable to the size of the roughness of printed characters, which is mainly due to the size of the 'grain' of the paper, there will be no detectable difference there, if they choose to display a high-resolution image of an actual printed page, like you showed.

If it is simply generating fonts as normal on a text display, the digital display will look crisper, unless they choose to simulate the graininess of paper, for 'effect'.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology