almost fusion

luca
atheist
Posts: 400
Joined: 2011-02-21
User is offlineOffline
almost fusion

Now I don't know if I miss something, but apparently someone is building and developing LENR (low energy nuclear reactions) devices that outputs 600% of the energy that you put into them. I'm talking about Focardi, the one involved in the Petroldragon or what was it...

If this E-CAT (Hyperion) does something, and the "fusion" of nichel-hydrogen is real (which I think is not) then the world will change. Fact is, someone is paying money for that, a lot of money, and a lot of people are trying to repeat this experiment. Obviously this is not a synonym of "it functions", but Greece seems to be into that... (search for Defkalion).

So, are those people trying to achieve cold fusion with a billion^3 watt laser idiots? I mean, what's happening, someone knows?


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
Dude, we need to know what

Dude, we need to know what you are on about.  Provide many links.

 

That much being said, cold fusion is controversial but worth spending money on for those who have the cash.

 

Did you know that it is, in fact, trivial to build a fusion reactor in your kitchen?  You will never get useful energy from it but getting the reaction started is not really all that hard.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


luca
atheist
Posts: 400
Joined: 2011-02-21
User is offlineOffline
no time

Quote:
Dude, we need to know what you are on about. Provide many links.
I know but I just read them, and I read them in my language, which is italian, so if I give these links to you I don't think you could do much.
Quote:
Did you know that it is, in fact, trivial to build a fusion reactor in your kitchen? You will never get useful energy from it but getting the reaction started is not really all that hard.
It depends on the technology... If I have to build a plasma containment device it might be a little more difficult that prospected... Anyway apart from the fact that this would not be cold fusion, there are some english links, the nasa had something to do with it, but I have to find them.


luca
atheist
Posts: 400
Joined: 2011-02-21
User is offlineOffline
I could give you this:

EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE OF 4HE PRODUCTION IN A COLD FUSION EXPERIMENT
www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAexperiment.pdf

De Ninno, A., et al. - LENR-CANR (De Ninno, A., et al. 4He Detection In A Cold Fusion Experiment)
www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAhedetectio.pdf

Cold Fusion #1 Claims NASA Chief (Focardi & Rossi - not cold fusion but close enough)
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2730240/posts

but probably on english wiki it's discussed. Also one should learn about Widom-Larsen, and there are some sites about the e-cat (energy catalizer), there's even a twitter, I see. The product will be in a range from 5 to 30 KW. A big 1 MW generator is being tested in Greece.


luca
atheist
Posts: 400
Joined: 2011-02-21
User is offlineOffline
sorry to double post

And then there's this "journal of nuclear physics"

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/

created for the LENR. Because noone else wanted it.


Luminon
SuperfanTheist
Luminon's picture
Posts: 2455
Joined: 2008-02-17
User is offlineOffline
 My main hopes are in

 My main hopes are in fusion devices with deutherium water and palladium or platinum electrode, like the original Fleischman-Pons experiment. When doubtful, remember that even the frickin' lightbulb took Thomas A. Edison more than 1000 designs before it worked. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


luca
atheist
Posts: 400
Joined: 2011-02-21
User is offlineOffline
last time i checked

last time i checked palladium-deut was fake, and also edison did rob some inventions


inspectormustard
atheist
inspectormustard's picture
Posts: 537
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
 Yeah, so called cold

 Yeah, so called cold fusion still looks like a pipe dream. Admittedly I haven't been keeping up with the energy journals, but most of what I see traces back to the free-lunch fringe that still doesn't subscribe to that whole thermodynamics hooplah.


GeraldC
GeraldC's picture
Posts: 3
Joined: 2011-08-03
User is offlineOffline
Luminon wrote: My main

Luminon wrote:

 My main hopes are in fusion devices with deutherium water and palladium or platinum electrode, like the original Fleischman-Pons experiment. When doubtful, remember that even the frickin' lightbulb took Thomas A. Edison more than 1000 designs before it worked. 

 

Care to explain how a catalyst like platinum would have any effect in the nuclear physics of (cold) fusion?


Luminon
SuperfanTheist
Luminon's picture
Posts: 2455
Joined: 2008-02-17
User is offlineOffline
GeraldC wrote:Luminon

GeraldC wrote:
Luminon wrote:

 My main hopes are in fusion devices with deutherium water and palladium or platinum electrode, like the original Fleischman-Pons experiment. When doubtful, remember that even the frickin' lightbulb took Thomas A. Edison more than 1000 designs before it worked. 

Care to explain how a catalyst like platinum would have any effect in the nuclear physics of (cold) fusion?

No, not platinum, my mistake, turns out F-P experiment used a palladium electrode. But I don't know more than Wikipedia, plus a few reassuring words from my spiritually-politically-technological guru. Looks like Palladium can absorb molecules of deutherium and the fusion should occur inside the crystalline structure of metal. Also, something tells me that waiting for gamma radiation is futile, only alpha radiation should occur, which won't reach very far.

Let's call it my second article of faith, just after string theory. I have already observed much weirder things than cold fusion. If they're possible, then cold fusion is just a trifle in comparison. 

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


luca
atheist
Posts: 400
Joined: 2011-02-21
User is offlineOffline
10^30

Well what do you mean "weirder things than cold fusion"? There are billions of stars around us fueled by cold fusion, so I do not find it very wierd.
And please, don't tell me it's something philosophical like "life".

on topic: third report from Krivit, who interviewed the scientists working at the e-cat

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/NET370.shtml


Luminon
SuperfanTheist
Luminon's picture
Posts: 2455
Joined: 2008-02-17
User is offlineOffline
luca wrote:Well what do you

luca wrote:
Well what do you mean "weirder things than cold fusion"? There are billions of stars around us fueled by cold fusion, so I do not find it very wierd.
Stars are powered by cold fusion? I don't think so. Firstly, it's not cold. Secondly, scientists are trying to replicate it with a big huge hollow toroid machine and big plasma discharges, which is somewhat different approach.

luca wrote:
  And please, don't tell me it's something philosophical like "life".
No, not life as such. Something like ghost stories, but without fear and with esoteric technical details that are very unorthodox and disturbing, in retrospective. I have made certain frequent regular and detailed observations for a few months, eventually discovering it would have been healthier not to start with that at all. 

luca wrote:
 on topic: third report from Krivit, who interviewed the scientists working at the e-cat http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/NET370.shtml
So basically, this Krivit makes reviews and investigations of LENR claims, I suppose.

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


luca
atheist
Posts: 400
Joined: 2011-02-21
User is offlineOffline
ohi

Luminon wrote:
luca wrote:
Well what do you mean "weirder things than cold fusion"? There are billions of stars around us fueled by cold fusion, so I do not find it very wierd.
Stars are powered by cold fusion? I don't think so. Firstly, it's not cold. Secondly, scientists are trying to replicate it with a big huge hollow toroid machine and big plasma discharges, which is somewhat different approach.

Haha, I was sort close in a mental circle. Yes, stars don't use cold fusion/lenr, still they use fusion, "hi-powered" cold fusion, if you will. In the end cold fusion is fusion without the frills, something simple that should happen at "environment" temperatures and without zetawatt of power.

Luminon wrote:
luca wrote:
  And please, don't tell me it's something philosophical like "life".
No, not life as such. Something like ghost stories, but without fear and with esoteric technical details that are very unorthodox and disturbing, in retrospective. I have made certain frequent regular and detailed observations for a few months, eventually discovering it would have been healthier not to start with that at all.

A-ha.

Luminon wrote:
luca wrote:
 on topic: third report from Krivit, who interviewed the scientists working at the e-cat http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/NET370.shtml
So basically, this Krivit makes reviews and investigations of LENR claims, I suppose.

Krivit says he follows innovations and studies in this field from 10 years, and that he is a graduated engineer.


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in;

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }a:link { }

OK, on the new energy times web site, there is a detailed analysis of the e-cat reactor.

 

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3705report3.shtml

 

It is quite long but well worth the read if you are thinking that this might amount to anything.

 

Allow me to hit a few of the major points:

 

The registered location of the factory appears to be a fifth floor apartment in Miami FL.

 

The guy behind this appears to be lacking basic engineering skills.

 

He has only done a few demonstrations in front of witnesses and they all report serious experimental errors indicating that no proper tests have been performed. The numbers cannot be verified because he is in the habit of switching his computer off at the end of a test but without actually saving the data first.

 

The steam output is a rubber hose that runs into a disused drain pipe where a sink was installed. That and the hose has only been pulled out of the wall a couple of times while the machine was running to check for steam.

 

The original numbers that Rossi published allow for a calculation of what should be coming out of the steam hose. If they were true, the hose would be flopping around the room like an enraged python.

 

Since that has never been observed, Rossi has been questioned on the matter. His response was initially to sharply downgrade his numbers. When questioned on that, he says that the first set of numbers were based on a different machine entirely and that one has been dismantled because of some ill defined safety issue.

 

Really, this is not looking like we are all that close to anything except possibly Rossi going to jail if he gets caught accepting any money for the machines.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


RatDog
atheistSilver Member
Posts: 562
Joined: 2008-11-14
User is offlineOffline
 I found an article about

 I found an article about this that I thought was helpful.  

 

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7942


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Indeed.

 

The two gentlemen behind the current claim can't write a technical paper which would allow anyone to replicate the work. They claim the lack of a technical paper is because they are trying to sell the work but in the real world, the paper, should it be published and properly vetted would make them into instant billionaires.

 

Somehow, they seem to have convinced the government of Greece that they need lots of money for what they are unwilling to document. I am glad that I am not a Greek tax payer.

 

Not to say that the dream is dead but it is in the critical ward. There remains sufficient questions with no answer to merit public funding. But abundant energy from the idea is at least as far off as all of the other ideas for fusion.

 

Physics geeks like myself are betting on tokamak technology, such as the ITER. But I know of no one who is willing to rule out other lines of research. Laser pumping might bring home the bacon first. Ditto muon catalyzed fusion.

 

In fact, you can more or less trivially build a fusion reactor in your kitchen. You will not get as much energy out as you have to put in to run the thing but google “farnsworth fusor”. They are not all that hard to make.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


RatDog
atheistSilver Member
Posts: 562
Joined: 2008-11-14
User is offlineOffline
 Update for those who are

 Update for those who are interested.  They did a test recently.  Apparently it was a success.  

http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW_E-Cat_Test_Successful/


luca
atheist
Posts: 400
Joined: 2011-02-21
User is offlineOffline
it was a triumph im making a note here

Still too beautiful to be true. And the test run was pretty closed.

I heard negative things before this "revelation", and don't know who to listen. As I understood it, this is not "free" energy, btw.


RatDog
atheistSilver Member
Posts: 562
Joined: 2008-11-14
User is offlineOffline
 It would be nice if it is

 It would be nice if it is true.  Right now I have a wait and see attitude.  If it does work it apparently uses nickle which isn't exactly the most common element on earth(at least not in the earth's crust), but it could still be good.   The whole thing seems a little to good to be true, but perhaps I've just grown cynical.


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
RatDog wrote: It would be

RatDog wrote:

 It would be nice if it is true.  Right now I have a wait and see attitude.  If it does work it apparently uses nickle which isn't exactly the most common element on earth(at least not in the earth's crust), but it could still be good.   The whole thing seems a little to good to be true, but perhaps I've just grown cynical.

For fusion reactions, "plentiful" isn't all that important a requirement.  The problem I see is that H + Ni as a fusion reaction doesn't seem to be one that produces excess energy -- Fe is at the peak of binding energy per nucleon and everything heavier should only produce energy via fission.  Sure, there will be some high energy particles coming OUT, but they should total to less than the energy going IN.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
luca wrote:Still too

luca wrote:

Still too beautiful to be true. And the test run was pretty closed.

I heard negative things before this "revelation", and don't know who to listen. As I understood it, this is not "free" energy, btw.

It's probably very expensive energy.  The one test I saw had a 1MW generator running to get it "started".  Then they left it running.  While the device merrily produced all of 478kW.

The best way to figure out if it works is to calculate the rest masses of the H and Ni going in, and the end product (copper) coming out.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."