RRS fits this exactly [trolly post]

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RRS fits this exactly [trolly post]

Atheism:

The religious belief in a spontaneous, causeless, source-less, purposeless, meaningless existence.

Whose gods are Charles Darwin & Richard Dawkins

'Nuff said


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Your post is

 

someguy5 wrote:

spontaneous, causeless, source-less, purposeless, meaningless

 


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someguy5 wrote:Atheism:The

someguy5 wrote:

Atheism:

The religious belief in a spontaneous, causeless, source-less, purposeless, meaningless existence.

Whose gods are Charles Darwin & Richard Dawkins

'Nuff said

Poor kid doesn't know what atheism means. Ah well, they rarely do.

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I take it that everybody

Correct me then


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Atheism is nothing more or

Atheism is nothing more or less than a lack of belief in any deity of any kind. An atheist cannot worship any kind of god, or he or she would not be an atheist by definition.

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someguy5 wrote:Atheism:The

Nice trick, now explain how and why we would draw such conclusions

 


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It is implied;Science knows

It is implied;

Science knows that the big-bang was spontaneous, causeless, source-less, purposeless, meaningless event. By extension, all created by it is too.


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So if I simply went out and

So if I simply went out and killed a few people, it is completely fine, their deaths are insignificant.


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someguy5 wrote:It is

someguy5 wrote:

It is implied;

Science knows that the big-bang was spontaneous, causeless, source-less, purposeless, meaningless event. By extension, all created by it is too.

Science does not know this. It is a common theist mistake to make up sciences just to ridicule them. It usually happens because theists don't have the slightest clue what science is, let alone what science has discovered.

It is also guilty of attaching emotion to a non-emotional event. Which is neither scientific nor logical.

Finally, who are you to say my life is without meaning? I decide what has meaning to me, not you.

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Even if people discovered

Even if people discovered that the universe was not spontaneous, causeless or source-less

Scientifically, it would still be purposeless and meaningless


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someguy5 wrote:So if I

someguy5 wrote:

So if I simply went out and killed a few people, it is completely fine, their deaths are insignificant.

If you were a Christian, that is absolutely the case. All you have to do is make sure that YOU ask forgiveness for what you did. Once that's done, as far as your soul is concerned, the murders you committed never happened.

Atheists tend to be bound by societal laws and responsibility for our actions.

Must be great to be a Christian, eh?

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Perhaps so, axiomatically

someguy5 wrote:

Even if people discovered that the universe was not spontaneous, causeless or source-less

Scientifically, it would still be purposeless and meaningless

Perhaps so, mathematically, if the universe turned out to be a mistake or an accident, but that we exist and can find purpose and meaning for ourselves says that such a universe's cause or source is irrelevant to meaning and purpose.

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someguy5 wrote:Even if

someguy5 wrote:

Even if people discovered that the universe was not spontaneous, causeless or source-less

Scientifically, it would still be purposeless and meaningless

Of course, only conscious being create purpose and meaning. We bring our own meaning and purpose to life.

Are you so bereft of creativity that you have to take your life's purpose and meaning from a 2000 year old book?

Edit: Vastet, you beat me to this

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(No subject)

jcgadfly wrote:

someguy5 wrote:

Even if people discovered that the universe was not spontaneous, causeless or source-less

Scientifically, it would still be purposeless and meaningless

Of course, only conscious being create purpose and meaning. We bring our own meaning and purpose to life.

Are you so bereft of creativity that you have to take your life's purpose and meaning from a 2000 year old book?

Edit: Vastet, you beat me to this

Sticking out tongue

I liked the way you put it too. Half the fun in debating theists can be reading what other people are saying to them. Smiling

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What gives God a purpose or

What gives God a purpose or meaning, if he wasn't created by something else for a purpose?? You can't have it both ways.

Purpose and meaning is something conscious beings derive for themselves, whether your imaginary god or us.

If our purpose is derived from something that 'created' us, that makes us merely tools for that creator, not purposeful beings in our own right.

Morality is based on the need for social order in a species depending for its survival on cooperation, which is why it evolved. It is driven at base by our empathy neurons.

Some degree of moral behaviour, including altrusim, is observed in all such species.

You wanna try another thread to further display your ignorance?

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someguy5 wrote:So if I

someguy5 wrote:

So if I simply went out and killed a few people, it is completely fine, their deaths are insignificant.

So explain why we don't and while you are at it answer my first question.

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someguy5 wrote:Even if

someguy5 wrote:

Even if people discovered that the universe was not spontaneous, causeless or source-less

Scientifically, it would still be purposeless and meaningless

 

Does god/s/dess tweet you with today's update on meaning and purpose?  No?  So you are running your life on a guess.  Nothing more.  So you read the bible for clues.  And the bible says -- "your life has <meaning> and <purpose> now go forth and do it".  Right.  "Spread the gospel."  And to whom are you going to spread it?  Do you know anyone who has never heard of the bible, church, religion, Jesus?  And just how do you propose to spread said information?  By annoying perfect strangers in the airport or on the street or ...?    

Your life has no more meaning and purpose than mine does.  Which is, you make up yours and I make up mine.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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someguy5 wrote:So if I

someguy5 wrote:

So if I simply went out and killed a few people, it is completely fine, their deaths are insignificant.

Nice try idiot.

The opposite is true. Deity gang clubs devalue the here and now and only value those in their own gang. The promise of an afterlife makes the here and now meaningless.

BUT, if it takes you clinging to a childish placebo to prevent yourself from going on a killing spree, by all means, keep it.

I value my life because it is the only one I have. I know I won't get any do overs or any utopia. This is it, THAT is what makes life worth not screwing it up to lose your freedom.

Ultimately billions of years from now, yes, neither you or I or any god mentioned in human history will be remembered.

BUT, that does not mean I want to do stupid shit now or hurt other people now just because I know my ride is finite.

I don't need the threat of a spanking or a promise of a cookie to do the right thing. I do it, because if I don't I will lose my own life or my own freedom. But more importantly, MY EMPATHY isn't based on fear or punishment or comic book super heros. My empathy for others is based on the fact that if we don't hurt each other my chances of reaching old age increase. Since I know I want to do that, I am well aware others want to as well.

Why you need to insert a magic invisible super hero into real nature and real human empathy is WHY our planet is still stuck in its superstitious tribal past.

So your question is "who cares if nothing matters"

I care you moron. I care because this is all I have and I want to live as long as possible. I don't need a fictional Santa in the sky threatening me or bribing me to do the right thing.


 

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someguy5 wrote:Even if

someguy5 wrote:

Even if people discovered that the universe was not spontaneous, causeless or source-less

Scientifically, it would still be purposeless and meaningless

 

Yawwwn!  wtf, did someone spike the holly water again? 

What does it mean to you to be scientifically meaningful? or scientifically purposeful?  Do you even know what you're talking about?

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tl;drPurpose and meaning

tl;dr

Purpose and meaning are philosophical opinions, notions of a human mind; such are completely irrelevant to science


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ts;drPurpose and meaning are

ts;dr

Purpose and meaning are irrelevant to the universe. And the universe is irrelevant to purpose and meaning.

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Morals go into this category

Morals go into this category as well

petty restrictions placed upon the self for a sense of self-rightnous


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Neither petty nor for

Neither petty nor for self-rightousness, but so society can exist and thrive.

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someguy5 wrote:So if I

someguy5 wrote:

So if I simply went out and killed a few people, it is completely fine, their deaths are insignificant.

Insignificant in relation to what? Insignificant to whom?

 

Your death would be insignificant to some person living on the other side of the globe from you, who would never hera about it, but it would not be insignificant to your friends and family.

 

Every second almost 2 people die somewhere on the planet. Do you find every single one of their deaths significant to you?

 

Now, imagine their is just one more planet somewhere in the universe where approximately 7 billion sentient creatures live, and factor in their deathrate as well. At which point does a single death of a sentient creature cease to be significant to you?

 

Yes if you killed a few people their deaths might seem insignificant to the universe as a whole. But so what? Their deaths would NOT be insignificant to their loved ones!

 

What a thoroughly un-thought-through statement to suggest that if one believes the universe has no purpose then murder is insignificant. Who is it supposed to be significant for in the first place?

 

I could just as well say that since the soul is eternal, murder is insignificant, because noone ever really dies. Therefore, if I believed in an afterlife I could just go out and kill a couple of people, because their death would be insignificant.

 

Now that I turn your argument around, can you not see how stupid it sounds?

 

Think before you post!

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Nikolaj wrote:someguy5

Nikolaj wrote:

someguy5 wrote:

So if I simply went out and killed a few people, it is completely fine, their deaths are insignificant.

Insignificant in relation to what? Insignificant to whom?

 

Your death would be insignificant to some person living on the other side of the globe from you, who would never hera about it, but it would not be insignificant to your friends and family.

 

Every second almost 2 people die somewhere on the planet. Do you find every single one of their deaths significant to you?

 

Now, imagine their is just one more planet somewhere in the universe where approximately 7 billion sentient creatures live, and factor in their deathrate as well. At which point does a single death of a sentient creature cease to be significant to you?

 

Yes if you killed a few people their deaths might seem insignificant to the universe as a whole. But so what? Their deaths would NOT be insignificant to their loved ones!

 

What a thoroughly un-thought-through statement to suggest that if one believes the universe has no purpose then murder is insignificant. Who is it supposed to be significant for in the first place?

 

I could just as well say that since the soul is eternal, murder is insignificant, because noone ever really dies. Therefore, if I believed in an afterlife I could just go out and kill a couple of people, because their death would be insignificant.

 

Now that I turn your argument around, can you not see how stupid it sounds?

 

Think before you post!

Well put, it comes down to detachment which religion brings in force.

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someguy5 wrote:Even if

someguy5 wrote:

Even if people discovered that the universe was not spontaneous, causeless or source-less

Scientifically, it would still be purposeless and meaningless

And?...

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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someguy5 wrote:tl;drPurpose

someguy5 wrote:

tl;dr

Purpose and meaning are philosophical opinions, notions of a human mind; such are completely irrelevant to science

What are you talking about? are you listening to yourself?

Purpose and meaning are not philosophical opinions, whatever that even means, they are relative notions.  An action has purpose relative to a certain system, a system that has no interaction with said system finds the same action purposeless.  Meaning is relative and subjective.  Every scientific experiment has meaning and it's intermediary stages have a purpose to arrive at that meaning.  To say that those terms are irrelevant to science is to grossly misunderstand science, meaning, purpose and shows a grade two comprehension of the English language.

I think you are attempting the objective morality argument but are in way over your head.

Why don't you just read some more bible and try thinking for yourself for a change.

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What are you talking about?

What are you talking about? Are you listening to yourself?

Society and morals are overrated, the only sensible way to live without rules. There's no afterlife just this life so people should just do whatever they want.

Let natural selection and social darwinism thrive.

Really, I don't give a shit if somebody gets killed or dies, in fact this planet is over-populated anyways so it'll be helping the Earth;

curing the disease that has been endlessly multiplying without anything to stop it


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Quote:Society and

Quote:
Society and morals are overrated, the only sensible way to live without rules. There's no afterlife just this life so people should just do whatever they want.

Let natural selection and social darwinism thrive.

Really, I don't give a shit if somebody gets killed or dies, in fact this planet is over-populated anyways so it'll be helping the Earth;

curing the disease that has been endlessly multiplying without anything to stop it

 

Good luck with that.

Even a cursory risk/benefit analysis demonstrates how patently false that is.

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someguy5 wrote:What are you

someguy5 wrote:

What are you talking about? Are you listening to yourself?

Are you listening to yourself?

someguy5 wrote:
Society and morals are overrated, the only sensible way to live without rules. There's no afterlife just this life so people should just do whatever they want.

Why?

someguy5 wrote:
Let natural selection and social darwinism thrive.

What you describe is the opposite of evolution.

someguy5 wrote:
Really, I don't give a shit if somebody gets killed or dies, in fact this planet is over-populated anyways so it'll be helping the Earth;

curing the disease that has been endlessly multiplying without anything to stop it

So why don't you kill yourself?

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someguy5 wrote:What are you

someguy5 wrote:

What are you talking about? Are you listening to yourself?

Society and morals are overrated, the only sensible way to live without rules. There's no afterlife just this life so people should just do whatever they want.

Let natural selection and social darwinism thrive.

Really, I don't give a shit if somebody gets killed or dies, in fact this planet is over-populated anyways so it'll be helping the Earth;

curing the disease that has been endlessly multiplying without anything to stop it

Especially if they're not Christians, right?

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someguy5 wrote:What are you

someguy5 wrote:

What are you talking about? Are you listening to yourself?

Society and morals are overrated, the only sensible way to live without rules. There's no afterlife just this life so people should just do whatever they want.

Let natural selection and social darwinism thrive.

Really, I don't give a shit if somebody gets killed or dies, in fact this planet is over-populated anyways so it'll be helping the Earth;

curing the disease that has been endlessly multiplying without anything to stop it

Huh? what the hell are you on? You're taking a nihilistic approach to morality and you question our subjective morals?  What is your point?

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 If there's one thing

 If there's one thing that's more annoying than an ignorant righteous theist, it is an unfocused ignorant righteous theist.  If you want to make a point, go ahead and make it.  This passive aggressive BS is a waste of time.  

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One of my favourite types of

One of my favourite types of theists to get a hold of. They run out of arguments really really fast. And they look oh so stupid in the process.

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God Did It

someguy5 wrote:

Atheism:

The religious belief in a spontaneous, causeless, source-less, purposeless, meaningless existence.

 

 

Causeless. When you add an all loving, all power, ever present god who is into everything, it causes this kind of thinking in the example of hurricane katrina.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-september-26-2005/this-week-in-god---hurricane-katrina-coverage

 

someguy5, which one cause do you believing in? I am guessing because Eve ate a piece of fruit.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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The universe has

someguy5 wrote:

Even if people discovered that the universe was not spontaneous, causeless or source-less

Scientifically, it would still be purposeless and meaningless

no meaning that is not based on subjective human value judgments. That is all that meaning is from the perspective of a human brain. Science makes no claims over purpose or meanings - it searches for cause - and remakes its position in the face of new information.

Science offers the hypothesis that the big bang was the cause of the current state of the universe but this hypothesis could not be called a fully formed theory. And whatever came before the bang, if it happened in this way, is not yet proved and is the subject of intense speculation.

The centre of your argument is a strawman. The correct answer to questions of cause, meaning, source, prime mover, pre-bang, is an admission that we do not know. No one here will lay claim to the certainties you're implying you own.

 

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Vastet wrote:One of my

Vastet wrote:

One of my favourite types of theists to get a hold of. They run out of arguments really really fast. And they look oh so stupid in the process.

Well he is fairly basic, he can't even answer a couple of questions on his own statements. In his blathering way he is trying to insinuate that we should just run around killing and stealing. Common christian thought that without jesus we have to be bad. They can't comprehend that we appreciate society and wish to see it do well and advance, much more so than their biblical "god".

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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Indeed. I find it the most

Indeed. I find it the most telling evidence that christianity is morally bankrupt.

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someguy5 wrote:What are you

someguy5 wrote:

What are you talking about? Are you listening to yourself?

Society and morals are overrated, the only sensible way to live without rules. There's no afterlife just this life so people should just do whatever they want.

Let natural selection and social darwinism thrive.

Really, I don't give a shit if somebody gets killed or dies, in fact this planet is over-populated anyways so it'll be helping the Earth;

curing the disease that has been endlessly multiplying without anything to stop it

I give a shit, this is my home too. Now for someone who says they believe in a god, you certainly show the true colors of claimed fictional super hero.

Just like your fictional sky daddy, it is all about you, do what you want, screw the rest of the world.

Our planet IS becoming over populated AND over polluted. That does not mean I want my home obliterated nor does it mean that I want my neighbor doing whatever they want.

I bet I know who you'd get rid of first if you could "do what you want". And you wonder why we blaspheme god fans.

No human can 100% "do what they want". Even dictators like in Iran and North Korea, are still subject to dealing with the rest of the world's reactions to their behavior.

BUT as individuals we EVOLVED to have social norms that make any given society in human history, structure.

We do not advocate lawlessness. Nor do we advocate dictatorships. We advocate "do what you want" along with "do no harm". Atheists want a civil society as much as anyone else. We simply do not think OUR laws should be religious based. Much the same way you would not want OUR laws Koran based.

I do not advocate street gangs, drug dealers, rapists, child molesters. You have your head up your ass if you think atheists drink goats blood and pray to a fictional devil.

We don't believe in any god, not just yours. We are your neighbors, co-workers, and I can even bet somewhere in your own family, even if a cousin or second cousin, you have an atheist. Someone you have met or know IS., you are just unaware of it.

We won't barbecue your kittens, or rape your women. We simply do not buy into invisible fictional sky daddies BY ANY NAME.

So knock it off with pathetic attempt to make us look like lepers. You won't get cooties from us. Grow up and get over it. Your pet god claim is not the center of the world, or the universe for that matter.

 

 

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Welcome to the forum,

Welcome to the forum, someguy5.

It is accepted by moral subjectivists (note that atheists are not necessarily moral subjectivists) that we cannot declare any of your actions to be objectively wrong. That is implied in the definition; if we did not bite the bullet on that, then we would not be subjectivists. This isn't an issue for anyone that really understands the subject. Past that, you don't really have an argument. We will still assert that your morals are "bad" in the sense that we don't like them and oppose them for that reason.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Vastet wrote:Indeed. I find

Vastet wrote:

Indeed. I find it the most telling evidence that christianity is morally bankrupt.

 

Hmm, yes, but according to Christianity (read: Christians) WE are the ones with the problem. Ironic, huh...

 


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Someguy,What I object to the

Someguy,

What I object to the most is the absurd idea that if ANYONE doesn't belong to another's deity club, they should automatically be treated as if they are sub human. Just as you'd find it absurd that the radical Muslims in the east consider both Christians and atheists sub human.

I got mad at you for implying that because we do not buy your fictional friend, that somehow we are not capable of being law abiding and incapable of human empathy.

As others have said, and I have said, is that our "place" in all this is finite and long term IS meaningless.

HOWEVER, that does not make the here and now and the life I have as an individual meaningless. I do not fool myself in thinking that I am important to the survival of our species. If I had never been born, another sperm would have produced someone other than me, and our species would continue.

THAT DOES NOT mean I don't find value in myself. I am perfectly capable of finding value in what I have now. I am perfectly capable of valuing a pluralistic civil society.

Your question to us was "If it is all meaningless, then why not be lawless and go on a killing spree".

Knowing that the movie you go to the theater to watch will end, doesn't prevent you from going. Going to a football or basketball game, knowing that someone will win and someone will lose, knowing that it is finite, and will end, doesn't prevent you from enjoying it. Nor does the fact those things end, entitle you to murder the patrons of movies or sporting events simply because those events are finite.

MEANING is what we have now, not ideological comic book myths, by any name. You can enjoy eating a meal, but you know the meal is not infinite.

Life does not need ancient books to live life. I find great joy in lots of life. My mother brings me joy. My cat brings me joy. But knowing that illness and death and our finite existence with no afterlife, does not make me fatalistic or make me want to do physical harm to others.

Ancient stories written by scientifically ignorant people pale in contrast to our current scientific knowledge. I am in awe of things like the destructive nature of black holes. I am in awe of the weirdness of science in gravity affecting time. I am in awe of the extreme size of the universe and both the constructive and destructive things in it.

WHAT I DON'T DO which deity believers do, is insist that their is a magical invisible friend at work in all this. I can find flowers pretty without making up a flower god. I can find the ocean pretty without assigning the control of it to Posiden.

If you can accept that Thor does not make lightening then you should be able to accept the absurdity of a non-material fictional super brain. If you can accept that the  sun is not a god, which was once believed, then you should be able to understand why you do not need your myth either.

The universe is amazing without a comic book explanation, and we do not need to pretend as a species that we are special, or infinite, to appreciate the here and now.

 

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jcgadfly
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Silly_Mommy wrote:Vastet

Silly_Mommy wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Indeed. I find it the most telling evidence that christianity is morally bankrupt.

 

Hmm, yes, but according to Christianity (read: Christians) WE are the ones with the problem. Ironic, huh...

 

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Sapient
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someguy5 wrote:Atheism:The

someguy5 wrote:

Atheism:

The religious belief in a spontaneous, causeless, source-less, purposeless, meaningless existence.

Whose gods are Charles Darwin & Richard Dawkins

'Nuff said

 

I'm not religious, don't claim to be able to explain how existence began, and have filled my life with lots of purpose.

I am glad Darwin made the contributions he did, and because of personal interactions with Richard Dawkins I am no longer a fan of his (although I respect his work).

I created this site and I also created the page that explains what atheism actually is: Am I Agnostic or Atheist?

'Nuff said.

 

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Joker
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The real fun part here is

The real fun part here is that a lot of our morals are probably driven in part by evolution. After all, part of why we don't do harm to one another, aside from the inherent risks of them fighting back, is that we as a species have needed others to survive. Look back when we lived in small tribes, we needed everyone to help hunt, gather, etc. to make sure that everyone would have enough to eat. But then there are also technically evolutionary arguments for how we ended up with various religions and even why some religions worked out so much better than others.