GOD is NOT Religion

BADWAY
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GOD is NOT Religion

God is not Religion by John Kevin Badway Sept 12th 2010


This may offend someone who doesn’t quite understand my point of view, but, all I ask is that you the reader, no matter your proclivity to certain beliefs or ideologies that you examine the facts before stating your own opinions contrary to the authors dissertation. Thank You!

 And now for something completely different….to borrow a line from Monty Python…Indulge me for a moment as I go against the grain of current popular thought regarding God and religion.

What is Religion?
Is it God?
Is God religion?
 Well, first of all let me say that GOD is not religion!
WHAT! You say….How dare ye! I protest thee! And so on etc, etc.
As I mentioned this to an Atheist/agnostic, he argued that indeed God is religion and that’s what all these denominations are all about, however, I contend that GOD and religion are separate.
How?
Well, first let me explain that religion is a practice or series of practices that one does to support a notion, idea, or belief. There are people who worship the tomato but is the tomato a religion? It is in fact a tomato, an object unto which a select group of people may worship, pray, and practice certain customs or rituals involving this wonderful fruit…yes a tomato is considered a fruit…but it is still a tomato, an inanimate object and would not be considered a god unless you want it to be deified as such. So if according to atheists that GOD is not real then it can not be a religion on that merit alone.

Man created religion/s to justify their beliefs or ideals about practical matters and created gods whether in a physical form like a statue or painting or in mythological form like Zeus, Perseus, Poseidon, etc. Some may have been actual people that existed at one time like Buddha, but still the practices of ritualistic behavior towards these gods are in essence religion and not the object of devotion itself.
That being said, GOD or ELOHIM the Hebrew word for GOD as we know Him to be is not a religion, however man has made a religion of worshiping Him. Throughout the ages man has fought, died, killed, sacrificed, and persecuted among other things in their devotion to their own notion of whom they think God actually is.

 I do not practice rituals in my belief of “All that is Holy”, ELOHIM nor do I celebrate holidays that involve pagan origins for I know this does not please GOD. I believe in HIM because of my life’s journey and what HE has done for me even when I have been the proverbial Rebel without a cause, a Christian without a clue.

The Church I go to is the one that very few attend. The one that lives in the hearts of the unfortunate and oppressed. The abused and distraught. The one that says your money is no good here but your servitude is required. Where giving is without expecting. And where Faith is essential no matter the obstacle or obstruction that hinders your walk for if you stumble He will reset your legs of spiritual motion, if you fall, He will lift you up and dust off the dirt of despair and set you back upon the prosperous path to glory. My Church does not convene on one day or two but of every moment you have when you encounter another of Gods children no matter their situation. In my Church there is no prestige or rank. No order of righteous vs. the non righteous. In my Church there is no He or She it is We!

…….sorry I got off track for a moment….I do that you know from time to time…lol…

We as Christians need to understand…GOD is not concerned with your practices or rituals for they are only in vanity we do these things. Jesus himself told the Pharisees these are your ways not my Fathers. It is our actions that prove our worth and our inactions that show our worthlessness. I am no saint, nor a prophet or preacher but I am one of Gods’ works in progress and I hope that we all quit using religion as a crutch. Religion is like a car you are pushing up hill…you can only go so far before it rolls back over you and leaves you worse off than you were before.
Remember!…it’s not how many times you’ve read the Holy Bible, attended Church, had communion or confessed your sins, been baptized, or how much money you put in the collection plate…This doesn’t please God it troubles Him for if you truly loved Him you would do the two things he sent Jesus down here to tell us….Love God with all your heart and Do unto others as you would have them do unto you…

How many of you have done those two things….
think about that the next time you see a person standing outside with a cup asking for change…sure, he might get a beer with that…but, then again…maybe, it’s an angel sent to test your ability to give without judgment….

God bless you for reading and if you disagree that’s fine after all, how will we ever learn to communicate if we can’t discuss.

“The preceding announcement has not been officially endorsed by God, Jesus or any Heavenly body and does not necessarily represent the views of current Judeo-Christian thinking…Thank you!

 

"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY


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Meh, tautology aside, theism

Meh, tautology aside, theism is an irrationality, whether or not you ritualize your belief is irrelevant.  Without the somewhat strict doctrine of historical organized religion you wouldn't have the concepts necessary for your deism today.  

God is not religion? religion is not god? if god is plaid pattern than my pajama pants are my religion... because I wear them every night, ritually.  If your god requires you to not go to church, and pray every night, and do whatever else it is that you do to please him, then I argue that's your religion.  It's not so much about the institution, as it is about the underlining fundamental irrationality, which in itself requires a ritual.  If you define your doctrine as a different doctrine, it is still deity derived.  

Point is, while your flavour of worship is not as damaging to a meme as, let's say Calvinism, one can easily take your 'spirituality' and turn it into an organized religion with very little effort.  I think you're completely missing the point with your OP.

 

 

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Of course God is not

Of course God is not religion! I wasn't aware that anybody held that position.

That's like saying that the President IS the United States!

God is a concept that many religions regard as an entity to be worshipped and submitted to, and the source of edicts that should govern our behaviour.

Belief in such an entity is the foundation of most religions.

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ummm...

Personally, I think this is kind of silly. Just because you want to try and separate the basic concept of almost all religions (a magical deity with superpowers) from the rituals people have based around the concept doesn't change the fact that the very idea that god(s) exist is a religious concept. People wouldn't have developed rituals with religious overtones without a reason, and when it comes to almost all religions that reason is their god(s). I know that the idea being presented here is that religion is the stuff people have "added" to the god belief, like rituals and observances, but the belief in the god is a religious position on it's own and it can't be separated from it, as it's dependent on which god(s) you believe exist and which traditions it's based on. The only way you can think that god(s) are not religious is if you think that the god(s) are real and not dependent on the human minds that create the rituals in the same way as the god concept itself was created. As the god that is described within the post is the Jewish deity, it is dependent upon the human religion that created it and by it's very nature religiously based.

I can understand why many religiously minded people try to distance themselves from the religious institutions that have committed horrible crimes throughout history, but I don't see how dropping some of the people inspired by the religion but keeping the imaginary sky dictator emotional baggage is an effective way of doing that.

And if you think that the deity described in the "Holy" Babble doesn't care about your practices and rituals but is concerned only with your actions, then I think I read a different book then you!

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
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dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
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The fact that there is no

The fact that there is no such thing as an Atheist is amusing to me especially those who respond to my posts. An atheist is nothing more than a stubborn agnostic who refuses to accept the possiblity of a GOD although he can not prove nor never prove the nonexistence there of. Both Christians and agnostics can admit that neither side can prove thier argument ,however, the plausible possibility of a GOD is more feasible than the impossible conclusion that there is no GOD. I suppose you have a scientific reasoning for the tornado outbreak recently and Japans earthquakes as just mothernature doing her thing but may I suggest to you that the recent geological as well as meterological phenomenon is and has been getting worse since the keeping of historical records. Albeit, one can say that there have been catastrophic events throughout history, true, but not as abundant as in recent years. The Bible mentions this as well as increased violence (3 wars including the U.S. concurrently under way) along with the wierd seasons that we have been having. Sure you could rationalize all you like but it does give the Bible some validity for acknowledging this type of behavior long before the science of meterology and knowing about the future of civilization as they understood it.

"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY


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BADWAY wrote:The fact that

BADWAY wrote:

The fact that there is no such thing as an Atheist is amusing to me especially those who respond to my posts. An atheist is nothing more than a stubborn agnostic who refuses to accept the possiblity of a GOD although he can not prove nor never prove the nonexistence there of. 

I'm an agnostic atheist who is willing to admit that there could possibly be a God.  I'm also willing to admit that nobody on this planet has ever presented sufficient proof for anyone to believe in a God.

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Sapient wrote:I'm an

Sapient wrote:

I'm an agnostic atheist who is willing to admit that there could possibly be a God.  I'm also willing to admit that nobody on this planet has ever presented sufficient proof for anyone to believe in a God.

                       Yes, exactly my sentiments.  Spot on, dude.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

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B166ER wrote:Personally, I

B166ER wrote:

Personally, I think this is kind of silly. Just because you want to try and separate the basic concept of almost all religions (a magical deity with superpowers) from the rituals people have based around the concept doesn't change the fact that the very idea that god(s) exist is a religious concept.

It is only a concept if the object of deification is religiously adopted!

 As the god that is described within the post is the Jewish deity, it is dependent upon the human religion that created it and by it's very nature religiously based.

I can understand why many religiously minded people try to distance themselves from the religious institutions that have committed horrible crimes throughout history, but I don't see how dropping some of the people inspired by the religion but keeping the imaginary sky dictator emotional baggage is an effective way of doing that.

And if you think that the deity described in the "Holy" Babble doesn't care about your practices and rituals but is concerned only with your actions, then I think I read a different book then you!

The Holy Bible was written by men who were compelled if not led by GOD to explain, convey, teach, guide, govern, and inspire among other things. It was not meant to be taken 100 percent literally in certain areas for some of the stories mentioned in the Holy book were meant as Wisdom tools to teach us how to love and forgive one another as well as develop a closer relationship with our Heavenly Creator Elohim or God as we colloquially refer to Him.

"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY


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This is what you brought

This is what you brought us?

Yawn.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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To Sapient

That's a start...at least you admitted there is a possibilty and I will take that although I understand your not admitting that there is a GOD. This has been my whole point all along so thank you for that. As far as evidence is concerned lets not mix false ideas with biblical truths that have been adopted by many Christians and even agnostics who accept misinformation as part of their theological doctrines. When agnostics point out things like Horus, Mithra, Vishnu etc to show similarities between those religions and Christianity it must be pointed out that many of those similarities are nonexistent. For example when one points out that Horus was born on December 25th, and was visited by 3 wisemen, it must be understood that neither the Bible whether in its current form or its original form give the date of the Messiahs birth, nor, does it mention three wisemen although these two misconceptions have widely been adopted and become a universally misconcepted reality. If an agnostic is to attack the Holy scriptures they must do so without any doubt or question of their dissertation to the Holybooks. Otherwise your arguments of errancy can easily be refuted. The Bible is meant to be analyzed and can easily be understood as long certain things are put in its proper context...it is the misunderstanding of these texts that create an air of speculative doubt. The problem I see between us is not that we both seek truth and knowledge but that we can falsely put information where it doesn't belong or exist. 

"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY


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OMG, Kevin ! Hi, how you

OMG, Kevin ! Hi, how you been ?


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To Brian

Go back to sleep brian...you have been asleep for years and there is no need to interrupt your agnostic fantasies........i actually miss you guys...lol

"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY


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OMG

How are you Anonymouse...it's been a long time...Miss you guys and the debates...I'm still homeless but I am going to Dallas and seeking a shelter. I am having a documentary being filmed about me and I am looking to become part of the Arts community here in Deep Ellum. This might be the change i needed especially since I just got kicked out of the Rec Center where i would hang out and take showers...I just lost about everything i owned and have stayed with my half sister on my dads side the last couple of weeks who discovered me on Facebook. I will let yall know how things are going guys/friends...if your an agnostic wish me luck and if your a Christian pray for me...

"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY


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BADWAY wrote:How are you

BADWAY wrote:

How are you Anonymouse...it's been a long time...Miss you guys and the debates...I'm still homeless but I am going to Dallas and seeking a shelter. I am having a documentary being filmed about me and I am looking to become part of the Arts community here in Deep Ellum. This might be the change i needed especially since I just got kicked out of the Rec Center where i would hang out and take showers...I just lost about everything i owned and have stayed with my half sister on my dads side the last couple of weeks who discovered me on Facebook. I will let yall know how things are going guys/friends...if your an agnostic wish me luck and if your a Christian pray for me...

Sounds like you still have it rough, but that documentary thing could be good news, I guess.

All the best, man. You deserve to catch a break.

 


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To Anonymouse

Thank you...I actually  recently got my picture taken on the red carpet during the Dallas film festival...a few weeks back so...yayyyyyy..to quote the producer of the doc...

"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY


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BADWAY wrote:Go back to

BADWAY wrote:

Go back to sleep brian...you have been asleep for years and there is no need to interrupt your agnostic fantasies........i actually miss you guys...lol

First off, I do hope you get back on your feet. It's a human empathy thing.

But don't you see the irony of a god watching you in your homelessness?

If you were a god, would you allow what has, is happening to you, happen? Much less to you, but to anyone?

 

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God is a word.  It is a few

God is a word.  It is a few symbols which codes for a specific sound,  but what's really important isn't the symbols or the sounds.  What is really important is the meaning.  At least that is true about most words.  When talking about god it seems that the word is more important then the meaning  Most people care more about weather or not you believe in god then they care about what you mean when you are talking about god.  I could call a tomato god, call myself a theist and many people would think better of me just because I could say the words I believe in god.  

The word god means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  Their is probably no single attribute that people assigned to the word god that every single person who says they believe in god would agree with.  The word religion also has a number of different meanings.  You've defined religions as a practice or series of practices that one does to support a notion, idea, or belief.   Dictionary.com defined religion as a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

With your particular definition of religion, and with your particular description of god it would be accurate to say religion and belief in god can be separated from each other.  If you used Dictionary.com's definition of god, and if you believe that god caused the universe and determined its nature and purpose  then belief in god automatically means you have religious beliefs.  In other words for your particular definition of god and religion belief in god can be separated from being religious, but what is true for you isn't true for everyone.  If theists could all agree on a single description of both god and religion none of this would be a problem. 

I understand that getting everyone to agree on the meaning of those two words is hard.  Some words are controversial.  Another set of controversial words are the words atheist and agnostic.  Not everyone agree on what these two words mean.  Based on what you have said in this thread you don't define those words in the same way most of the atheists on this site do.  If you wish for people to give you the curtsy of accepting how you use the word religion, you should also give them the curtsy of accepting how they use certain words differently then you do.  Otherwise I don't see how we can possible have a discussion using those words.   

edit:  Fixed some grammar mistakes.


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BADWAY wrote:The fact that

BADWAY wrote:

The fact that there is no such thing as an Atheist is amusing to me especially those who respond to my posts. An atheist is nothing more than a stubborn agnostic who refuses to accept the possiblity of a GOD although he can not prove nor never prove the nonexistence there of. Both Christians and agnostics can admit that neither side can prove thier argument ,however, the plausible possibility of a GOD is more feasible than the impossible conclusion that there is no GOD. I suppose you have a scientific reasoning for the tornado outbreak recently and Japans earthquakes as just mothernature doing her thing but may I suggest to you that the recent geological as well as meterological phenomenon is and has been getting worse since the keeping of historical records. Albeit, one can say that there have been catastrophic events throughout history, true, but not as abundant as in recent years. The Bible mentions this as well as increased violence (3 wars including the U.S. concurrently under way) along with the wierd seasons that we have been having. Sure you could rationalize all you like but it does give the Bible some validity for acknowledging this type of behavior long before the science of meterology and knowing about the future of civilization as they understood it.

I don't believe in any gods so I'm going to say I am an atheist. No god has been presented to me that is not obviously man made and I don't have a hankering to make one up myself.

If you are not happy with the weather system and the way nature works then pray for change, get back with us and let us know how it went.

The bible mentions a lot of things, wait long enough and some of it will come true. I could write some shit down and given enough time it may also come to pass.

This age of communication is reason for most all of it by the way.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Hi Badway

 

 

How's it going - good to see you back on the boards. I agree with you that god and religion aren't the same thing though personally, I'm not sure what god actually is from a non-subjective standpoint. I'd assume most people think god is a thing of some sort. 

Meanwhile, religion is just a vast grab bag of assertions, myths, wisdom, historical name drops, borrowings and rehashes, twisted into a facsimile of coherence. Anyway, Badway, how do you define god? As a person, a feeling inside yourself, the glue of the all matter, the prime mover?

 

 

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'Loving God with all your

'Loving God with all your heart' is only meaningful to a person who buys into the concept in the first place, and irrelevant to actually having a meaningful and fruitful life - it is only to propagate the rituals.

It is far more important to 'love' the people you share the planet with. That implies the better primary rule: Do not do to others what you would not wish done to you.

Religion is a distortion of our primary value system, introducing the distraction of an imaginary authority figure, whose values typically incorporate the primitive outlook of the peoples who invented him.

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Mmmm

BobSpence1 wrote:

'Loving God with all your heart' is only meaningful to a person who buys into the concept in the first place, and irrelevant to actually having a meaningful and fruitful life - it is only to propagate the rituals.

It is far more important to 'love' the people you share the planet with. That implies the better primary rule: Do not do to others what you would not wish done to you.

Religion is a distortion of our primary value system, introducing the distraction of an imaginary authority figure, whose values typically incorporate the primitive outlook of the peoples who invented him.

 

What is loving god with all your heart anyway? Sounds like nothing more than a serotonin rush to me. It's fascinating humans can personify an idea to such an extent they can convince themselves of its human qualities, its 'lovability'. Humans can go better than loving teddy bears, football teams, nations, concepts based in reality. We can even love and reify human abstracts. Maybe some brains are primed to do this better than others, to see meaning in situations and intent in objects. 

 

 

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BobSpence1 wrote:Of course

BobSpence1 wrote:

Of course God is not religion! I wasn't aware that anybody held that position.

That's like saying that the President IS the United States!

God is a concept that many religions regard as an entity to be worshipped and submitted to, and the source of edicts that should govern our behaviour.

Belief in such an entity is the foundation of most religions.

There is a phenomenon in Christianity that is concerned with this issue of God not being the religion practiced. Since one form of Christianity is competing and calling the other forms as invalid and therefore evil they focus in on their definitions of god.  So a Calvinistic God is not a Methodist God. Also there is a movement called the emergent church of which there is a prominent writer named Peter Rollins.  This movement speaks of their view as a/theism.  Their argument is that the problem I mentioned above exhibits the fact of idolatry.  The claim is that a denomination so defines the attributes of god (who to some extent is supposed to be beyond knowing )such that the denomination and its flock worship their theological construct rather than god.  The tendency is to think of god as the same definition you have of him rather than the definition being limited, knowingly anthropomorphic and contingent. When you say you are a Methodist you to a large extent define a different god from that of a Calvinist.  So are these folks worshipping god or their theological construct?  Is a Catholic god anything like a Baptist god?  The Jewish or Islamic God? As Wayne said to Cassandra, " When you name me you negate me." The early ideas in Judaism was that no man could see god and live.  He was not to be limited by attributing.  This is echoed in Christianity. No man has seen God ever. The only begotten god ( i.e.; Christ )in the  bosom of the Father though has explained (declared) Him. John 1:18. We are looking at multiple cultures of multiple christianities as John Loftus's book, the Christian Delusion point out.  So it is likely that the OP is wrong and he is worshipping his religion ( i.e.; the doctrinal construct of his church). That would of course from a true Christian perspective (if you could ever find which one if any is valid) mean that our OP may be an idolator!!!


 

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I think most cristians

I think most christians believe they all worship the same god ..the others are just doing it wrong.


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BADWAY wrote:The fact that

BADWAY wrote:

The fact that there is no such thing as an Atheist is amusing to me especially those who respond to my posts. An atheist is nothing more than a stubborn agnostic who refuses to accept the possiblity of a GOD although he can not prove nor never prove the nonexistence there of. Both Christians and agnostics can admit that neither side can prove thier argument ,however, the plausible possibility of a GOD is more feasible than the impossible conclusion that there is no GOD. I suppose you have a scientific reasoning for the tornado outbreak recently and Japans earthquakes as just mothernature doing her thing but may I suggest to you that the recent geological as well as meterological phenomenon is and has been getting worse since the keeping of historical records. Albeit, one can say that there have been catastrophic events throughout history, true, but not as abundant as in recent years. The Bible mentions this as well as increased violence (3 wars including the U.S. concurrently under way) along with the wierd seasons that we have been having. Sure you could rationalize all you like but it does give the Bible some validity for acknowledging this type of behavior long before the science of meterology and knowing about the future of civilization as they understood it.

I think that the state of theology with no satisfactory resolve of the theodicy issue makes the classic omni**God less plausible and there being no god more plausible. There is certainly the possibility just as the floor could possibly give way while I'm typing this. But we do not live with any type of certainty other than a Cartesian one. The bible itself hardly holds up to critical-historical analysis.

 

 

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robj101 wrote:I think most

robj101 wrote:

I think most christians believe they all worship the same god ..the others are just doing it wrong.

Ask a protestant whether a Catholic will get to heaven. Most conservative ones will sy no. The fundamentalists will even state that the Vatican is anti-Christ. Calvin burnt Servetus at the stake because his doctrine of godhead did not conform to Calvin's.  Many protestants do believe as you say.  But Jean Chauvin will tell you if you ask him everyone else's  concept of god is not god and therefore of Satan.  Just as Christians often say that the Islamic Allah is a false god so do many denominations preach the same of other Christian denominations. Many will easily state that the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are cults and worship a false god. It really depends on where the denomination is on the conservative to liberal spectrum of theology.


 

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TGBaker wrote:robj101

TGBaker wrote:

robj101 wrote:

I think most christians believe they all worship the same god ..the others are just doing it wrong.

Ask a protestant whether a Catholic will get to heaven. Most conservative ones will sy no. The fundamentalists will even state that the Vatican is anti-Christ. Calvin burnt Servetus at the stake because his doctrine of godhead did not conform to Calvin's.  Many protestants do believe as you say.  But Jean Chauvin will tell you if you ask him everyone else's  concept of god is not god and therefore of Satan.  Just as Christians often say that the Islamic Allah is a false god so do many denominations preach the same of other Christian denominations. Many will easily state that the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are cults and worship a false god. It really depends on where the denomination is on the conservative to liberal spectrum of theology.


 

 

I stand by what I said, I think "christians" generally will agree it is the same god they all "worship". The baptists catholics whatever denomination even westboro baptist will say it is the same god they just demand a literal translation of the bible and anyone who does not worship this god the way they do is going to hell, yes the same hell. Once again the others are just doing it wrong. The god of "Islam" seems to be a more tyrannical god even though they believe the OT which actually makes it the same god they just branched out a bit differently with the koran vs the new testament and the christian god has "evolved" a bit more.

I imagine jean would say it is the same god but everyone else is doing it wrong. (worshipping praying living interpreting etc wrong)

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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To All

Dear agnostics and the like...let me substantiate the validity of my prior statements. True, we can all percieve our own truths but with out facts to support our own conclusions we then can only classify our statements as opinions and nothing more. God is not religion  anymore than any other object whether animated or non would be considered because it is not and I repeat, not the object itself that is religion. Religion is merely the practice of repetition in a nut shell. Like when someone cleans their house religously, they don't worship their home but they do certain practices that constitutes a particular order of steps as it were as it relates to their domicile existence. If your ultimate contention is that the bible is full of errancies, then one must also contend that various other books as well also contain either errancies, imperfections, mistakes etc thus calling certain "facts" into question. What I mean to say is that in this day our language has become so diluted and distorted with slang and changes to certain words in so much as that they may have evolved into having more than one meaning losing the original context for which that word was intended. Example the word gay. Gay used to mean just simply happy until it evolved into a word  to describe someones sexuality and now an adjective to describe something that is either disgusting or stupid as in the colloquial sense "That is so gay" with no intention to refer either to being happy or in reference to ones sexual orientation. So the word religion as I used it doesn't necessarily have to relate to a god or any diety for that matter. Other agnostics understand what I am saying and the fact one would question the validity of my perception as it relates to religion is nothing more than a vain attempt to justify your agnostic beliefs as it relates to your understanding or lack there of . Different denominations or orders as it relates to the belief in GOD and the CHRIST have every right to be challenged when there is inconsistencies regarding their religous practices. But GOD did not invent religion. Man invented religion to worship their notion of GOD or god/s. The GOD I believe in, is substantiated through my experiences , whether good,bad or indifferent. The fact that I am still homeless and believe in HIM is a testament to my faith. Would I be better off if I didn't believe in HIM? Would my lack of faith mean that I can now put a roof over my head or put food in my belly? It is my faith that has kept me going even when I have been hungry, kicked out of places and even have my stuff taken away from me. I am blessed not because of the good things that happend to me but because I survived in spite of the bad things that presented themselves to me. It is my Faith that makes me strong, not my self will!

 

"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY


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Oh Gawd...

BADWAY wrote:

Dear agnostics and the like...let me substantiate the validity of my prior statements. True, we can all percieve our own truths but with out facts to support our own conclusions we then can only classify our statements as opinions and nothing more. God is not religion  anymore than any other object whether animated or non would be considered because it is not and I repeat, not the object itself that is religion. Religion is merely the practice of repetition in a nut shell. Like when someone cleans their house religously, they don't worship their home but they do certain practices that constitutes a particular order of steps as it were as it relates to their domicile existence. If your ultimate contention is that the bible is full of errancies, then one must also contend that various other books as well also contain either errancies, imperfections, mistakes etc thus calling certain "facts" into question. What I mean to say is that in this day our language has become so diluted and distorted with slang and changes to certain words in so much as that they may have evolved into having more than one meaning losing the original context for which that word was intended. Example the word gay. Gay used to mean just simply happy until it evolved into a word  to describe someones sexuality and now an adjective to describe something that is either disgusting or stupid as in the colloquial sense "That is so gay" with no intention to refer either to being happy or in reference to ones sexual orientation. So the word religion as I used it doesn't necessarily have to relate to a god or any diety for that matter. Other agnostics understand what I am saying and the fact one would question the validity of my perception as it relates to religion is nothing more than a vain attempt to justify your agnostic beliefs as it relates to your understanding or lack there of . Different denominations or orders as it relates to the belief in GOD and the CHRIST have every right to be challenged when there is inconsistencies regarding their religous practices. But GOD did not invent religion. Man invented religion to worship their notion of GOD or god/s. The GOD I believe in, is substantiated through my experiences , whether good,bad or indifferent. The fact that I am still homeless and believe in HIM is a testament to my faith. Would I be better off if I didn't believe in HIM? Would my lack of faith mean that I can now put a roof over my head or put food in my belly? It is my faith that has kept me going even when I have been hungry, kicked out of places and even have my stuff taken away from me. I am blessed not because of the good things that happend to me but because I survived in spite of the bad things that presented themselves to me. It is my Faith that makes me strong, not my self will!

 

 

I guess there must be a god after all then. How foolish I was expecting god to actually exist instead of just labelling arbitrary events and aspects of my life experience as having divine form and direction. I have been so wrong...

 

 

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BADWAY wrote:The fact that

BADWAY wrote:

The fact that there is no such thing as an Atheist is amusing to me especially those who respond to my posts. An atheist is nothing more than a stubborn agnostic who refuses to accept the possiblity of a GOD although he can not prove nor never prove the nonexistence there of.

The FACT that you believe there is "no such thing as an Atheist" is amusing to me.

Let me straighten you out here:

There are many people who lack belief in a God. FACT. They are atheists, as defined. FACT.

Agnostics are often stubborn atheists who are afraid to let go of the faint possibility that there might be such a being.

Theists are people who can't handle the truth.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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BADWAY wrote:Dear agnostics

BADWAY wrote:

Dear agnostics and the like...let me substantiate the validity of my prior statements. True, we can all perceive our own truths but with out facts to support our own conclusions we then can only classify our statements as opinions and nothing more.

Ah facts.  I like facts.  Its strange that you would mention facts sense your argument don't seem to include them.  Your arguments seems to be more in the line of opinion .

BADWAY wrote:
   

God is not religion  anymore than any other object whether animated or non would be considered because it is not and I repeat, not the object itself that is religion.

Mm.  For some reason I thought the argument you meant to make was belief in god is not a religion belief.  An argument over weather belief in god is a religious belief sort of makes sense.  An argument over weather god literally is religion is completely nonsensical.  I've never heard anyone make that claim.  Perhaps you misunderstood that atheist you think claimed that god literally was a religion.  I believe religions exists, but I don't have any belief in god. 

BADWAY wrote:

Religion is merely the practice of repetition in a nut shell. Like when someone cleans their house religiously, they don't worship their home but they do certain practices that constitutes a particular order of steps as it were as it relates to their domicile existence.

That is kind of a lame definition of religion, but whatever.  I don't really feel like arguing about it. 

BADWAY wrote:

If your ultimate contention is that the bible is full of errancies, then one must also contend that various other books as well also contain either errancies, imperfections, mistakes etc thus calling certain "facts" into question.

So your argument is uncertainty exists therefore I'm right?  That doesn't make any sense.  Life involves a certain amount of uncertainty, so what.  How does that support your views.  The bibles is crap lacking any manful support for it's assertions.  Some other books are also cap, but some books are actually useful and contain information that can actually stands up to scrutiny.  The uncertainty of life doesn't change that.  

BADWAY wrote:

What I mean to say is that in this day our language has become so diluted and distorted with slang and changes to certain words in so much as that they may have evolved into having more than one meaning losing the original context for which that word was intended. Example the word gay. Gay used to mean just simply happy until it evolved into a word  to describe someones sexuality and now an adjective to describe something that is either disgusting or stupid as in the colloquial sense "That is so gay" with no intention to refer either to being happy or in reference to ones sexual orientation.

If you are so worried about the degradation of language maybe you should use a dictionary more often instead of making up your own definitions. 

BADWAY wrote:

So the word religion as I used it doesn't necessarily have to relate to a god or any diety for that matter. Other agnostics understand what I am saying and the fact one would question the validity of my perception as it relates to religion is nothing more than a vain attempt to justify your agnostic beliefs as it relates to your understanding or lack there of .

OK, so you made up a definition for religion that lets you separate believing in god from being religious.  Big whoopty do.  I suppose the point for this must be that you don't want to be called religious.  At least I hope that is the point otherwise I have no idea why we are having this discussion at all.  As for the words atheist and agnostic I'm not going to argue with you over definitions anymore.  Define things however you want.  If you can convince enough people to do it your way maybe people will eventually have some idea what your talking about.  

BADWAY wrote:

Different denominations or orders as it relates to the belief in GOD and the CHRIST have every right to be challenged when there is inconsistencies regarding their religious practices. But GOD did not invent religion. Man invented religion to worship their notion of GOD or god/s. The GOD I believe in, is substantiated through my experiences , whether good,bad or indifferent.

Hm.  If I'm understanding this correctly basically your saying that your right and other people are wrong(at least where their belief differ from yours).  You know this because your beliefs have been substantiated through your experiences which are obviously superior to everyone else's.  

BADWAY wrote:

The fact that I am still homeless and believe in HIM is a testament to my faith. Would I be better off if I didn't believe in HIM? Would my lack of faith mean that I can now put a roof over my head or put food in my belly? It is my faith that has kept me going even when I have been hungry, kicked out of places and even have my stuff taken away from me. I am blessed not because of the good things that happend to me but because I survived in spite of the bad things that presented themselves to me. It is my Faith that makes me strong, not my self will!

I'm sorry you've had bad experience, but I don't like how you are trying to use them as a club to bully people into agreeing with you.  Would you be better of if you didn't believe in god?  Who knows.  I don't really know you or your life.  So what is your point?  Are you saying that because you feel your faith has been good for you everyone else should have the same beliefs you have?  What an arrogant attitude.  Your basically saying your experiences are more valid then everyone else's(sorry if this is not what your trying to say).  Its strange that most theist feel atheists are arrogant when most atheists I know are at least willing to acknowledge that things that work for them may not be what is best for everyone.   Sometimes I think theists don't want to define god because subconsciously they know that deep down they have already defined god as themselves, and they just don't want to admit it.   

Edit:  Fix some mistakes 


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robj101 wrote:TGBaker

robj101 wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

robj101 wrote:

I think most christians believe they all worship the same god ..the others are just doing it wrong.

Ask a protestant whether a Catholic will get to heaven. Most conservative ones will sy no. The fundamentalists will even state that the Vatican is anti-Christ. Calvin burnt Servetus at the stake because his doctrine of godhead did not conform to Calvin's.  Many protestants do believe as you say.  But Jean Chauvin will tell you if you ask him everyone else's  concept of god is not god and therefore of Satan.  Just as Christians often say that the Islamic Allah is a false god so do many denominations preach the same of other Christian denominations. Many will easily state that the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are cults and worship a false god. It really depends on where the denomination is on the conservative to liberal spectrum of theology.


 

 

I stand by what I said, I think "christians" generally will agree it is the same god they all "worship". The baptists catholics whatever denomination even westboro baptist will say it is the same god they just demand a literal translation of the bible and anyone who does not worship this god the way they do is going to hell, yes the same hell. Once again the others are just doing it wrong. The god of "Islam" seems to be a more tyrannical god even though they believe the OT which actually makes it the same god they just branched out a bit differently with the koran vs the new testament and the christian god has "evolved" a bit more.

I imagine jean would say it is the same god but everyone else is doing it wrong. (worshipping praying living interpreting etc wrong)

Well all I can go by is by my academic experience.  In Bible College and in seminary the object of worship was dependent on how he was understood.  In fact it was taught that some Christians are really worshipping Satan because of their heresy. That is why the early church could kill off so many who had different views of god. There was obviously degrees in which the idea was that we worship the same god but when doctrine became strongly different the idea was that IS NOT GOD. For example I did not accept the doctrine of trinity once I studied it. I was told that I no longer believe in god and the god I believed in a unitarian god was a false god ( i.e.' not god).  But I think you are right that most laymen say that the god of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all the same god but by analysis they are not. Judaism and Islam would say the the Trinity is a blasphemy and a false god. The very movement of emergent Christianity recognizes this at least academic and theological view within the Christianities.


 

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TGBaker wrote:robj101

TGBaker wrote:

robj101 wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

robj101 wrote:

I think most christians believe they all worship the same god ..the others are just doing it wrong.

Ask a protestant whether a Catholic will get to heaven. Most conservative ones will sy no. The fundamentalists will even state that the Vatican is anti-Christ. Calvin burnt Servetus at the stake because his doctrine of godhead did not conform to Calvin's.  Many protestants do believe as you say.  But Jean Chauvin will tell you if you ask him everyone else's  concept of god is not god and therefore of Satan.  Just as Christians often say that the Islamic Allah is a false god so do many denominations preach the same of other Christian denominations. Many will easily state that the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are cults and worship a false god. It really depends on where the denomination is on the conservative to liberal spectrum of theology.


 

 

I stand by what I said, I think "christians" generally will agree it is the same god they all "worship". The baptists catholics whatever denomination even westboro baptist will say it is the same god they just demand a literal translation of the bible and anyone who does not worship this god the way they do is going to hell, yes the same hell. Once again the others are just doing it wrong. The god of "Islam" seems to be a more tyrannical god even though they believe the OT which actually makes it the same god they just branched out a bit differently with the koran vs the new testament and the christian god has "evolved" a bit more.

I imagine jean would say it is the same god but everyone else is doing it wrong. (worshipping praying living interpreting etc wrong)

Well all I can go by is by my academic experience.  In Bible College and in seminary the object of worship was dependent on how he was understood.  In fact it was taught that some Christians are really worshipping Satan because of their heresy. That is why the early church could kill off so many who had different views of god. There was obviously degrees in which the idea was that we worship the same god but when doctrine became strongly different the idea was that IS NOT GOD. For example I did not accept the doctrine of trinity once I studied it. I was told that I no longer believe in god and the god I believed in a unitarian god was a false god ( i.e.' not god).  But I think you are right that most laymen say that the god of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all the same god but by analysis they are not. Judaism and Islam would say the the Trinity is a blasphemy and a false god. The very movement of emergent Christianity recognizes this at least academic and theological view within the Christianities.


 

 

I did say most, not all. There are a few extra wacky who think if you do not worship the way they do then you are worshipping a different and false god or as you say even satan. I used to be a christian and have a little insight on this.

Next time a bible thumper comes to your door ask them. Mormons and jehova's witnesses don't go with the trinity idea but they think it's the same god. The trinity is not really mandated in the bible but I guess most christians think it's cute.

Jews and muslims do not work with the new testament, it may be blasphemy but it's the same god.

I don't have any college experience let alone bible college. I just go by what I have seen firsthand. Some christians around here for example think the snake handling folks are crazy but I never heard them say they were worshipping the devil. Christianity as diverse as it is in the ways people choose to interpret and worship is unified somehow, if they all start saying the others are worshipping a false god and the devil do you realize what would happen? It would be awesome lol.

 

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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BobSpence1 wrote:BADWAY

BobSpence1 wrote:

BADWAY wrote:

The fact that there is no such thing as an Atheist is amusing to me especially those who respond to my posts. An atheist is nothing more than a stubborn agnostic who refuses to accept the possiblity of a GOD although he can not prove nor never prove the nonexistence there of.

The FACT that you believe there is "no such thing as an Atheist" is amusing to me.

Let me straighten you out here:

There are many people who lack belief in a God. FACT. They are atheists, as defined. FACT.

Agnostics are often stubborn atheists who are afraid to let go of the faint possibility that there might be such a being.

Theists are people who can't handle the truth.

Colonel Jesus "YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!

In theism, we use fallacies like naked assertions, non sequiturs and ad hominem. You use them as a punchline.

The truth is that you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. While my delusion is grotesque and childish, it provides society with a needless placebo. I'd rather you kiss my fictional friend's ass, and say thank you.

EITHER WAY, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK OF MY INVISIBLE SKY DADDY!"

Skeptic, "Colonel Jesus, ARE YOU PEDDLING A DELUSION?"

Colonel Jesus, "YOU'RE GOD DAMNED RIGHT I AM!"

 

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BADWAY wrote: Would my lack

BADWAY wrote:

 Would my lack of faith mean that I can now put a roof over my head or put food in my belly? It is my faith that has kept me going even when I have been hungry, kicked out of places and even have my stuff taken away from me. I am blessed not because of the good things that happend to me but because I survived in spite of the bad things that presented themselves to me. It is my Faith that makes me strong, not my self will!

 

Is faith putting food in your belly and a roof over your head? Can you sit around and pray for things and they just happen?

I suspect you have the same syndrome a friend of mine has. He calls me up one day to tell me (brag) about how god found him a job. I squashed this notion by asking if he didn't go fill out a job app at this "sonic" and maybe the manager thought he would make a decent worker. Anything good he does himself he likes to blame on faith and "god" and anything bad that happens by his own doing or otherwise is because "god works in mysterious ways" or "I'm being tested" (he loves the Job story) or it's the devil.

Bad things can't "just" happen apparently and you are not strong enough to do anything good yourself, how sad.

 

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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Odd

Odd how believers in God often try to attribute some form of human causation to an entity that is supposedly beyond their understanding. If god existed beyond human understanding, it would seem rather difficult to try and pinpoint the exact working of it's motives. Whether through religion or not.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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BADWAY wrote:Dear agnostics

BADWAY wrote:

Dear agnostics and the like...let me substantiate the validity of my prior statements. True, we can all percieve our own truths but with out facts to support our own conclusions we then can only classify our statements as opinions and nothing more. God is not religion  anymore than any other object whether animated or non would be considered because it is not and I repeat, not the object itself that is religion. Religion is merely the practice of repetition in a nut shell. Like when someone cleans their house religously, they don't worship their home but they do certain practices that constitutes a particular order of steps as it were as it relates to their domicile existence. If your ultimate contention is that the bible is full of errancies, then one must also contend that various other books as well also contain either errancies, imperfections, mistakes etc thus calling certain "facts" into question. What I mean to say is that in this day our language has become so diluted and distorted with slang and changes to certain words in so much as that they may have evolved into having more than one meaning losing the original context for which that word was intended. Example the word gay. Gay used to mean just simply happy until it evolved into a word  to describe someones sexuality and now an adjective to describe something that is either disgusting or stupid as in the colloquial sense "That is so gay" with no intention to refer either to being happy or in reference to ones sexual orientation. So the word religion as I used it doesn't necessarily have to relate to a god or any diety for that matter. Other agnostics understand what I am saying and the fact one would question the validity of my perception as it relates to religion is nothing more than a vain attempt to justify your agnostic beliefs as it relates to your understanding or lack there of . Different denominations or orders as it relates to the belief in GOD and the CHRIST have every right to be challenged when there is inconsistencies regarding their religous practices. But GOD did not invent religion. Man invented religion to worship their notion of GOD or god/s. The GOD I believe in, is substantiated through my experiences , whether good,bad or indifferent. The fact that I am still homeless and believe in HIM is a testament to my faith. Would I be better off if I didn't believe in HIM? Would my lack of faith mean that I can now put a roof over my head or put food in my belly? It is my faith that has kept me going even when I have been hungry, kicked out of places and even have my stuff taken away from me. I am blessed not because of the good things that happend to me but because I survived in spite of the bad things that presented themselves to me. It is my Faith that makes me strong, not my self will!

 

Couldn't that be considered a bit of an assertion ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:Odd

harleysportster wrote:

Odd how believers in God often try to attribute some form of human causation to an entity that is supposedly beyond their understanding. If god existed beyond human understanding, it would seem rather difficult to try and pinpoint the exact working of it's motives. Whether through religion or not.

The more I argue with believers the less patience I have with their apologies and the more I want to cut to the case.

I am tired of the "history" arguments.

I am tired of the "morality" arguments.

In the end there is not a lick of evidence for any pet deity, that a thought can arise out of a non-material process, much less one with super hero powers.

I see the "history" and "morality" crap as a distraction away from their starting naked assertion even before you get to those arguments.

The omni-god is a scientific absurdity alone, only made worse by it's contradictions of morality and it's even worse attitude that "I don't have to explain myself to you" and "It's all about me".

I am tired of the distractions.

There never was a cave god of animals. Vocanos were never gods. There never was a god named Osirus. Apolo was never real. And modern monotheism doesn't get a pass either just because it is currently popular.

Non-material beings with magical super powers are merely the inventions of ignorant humans who do not want to face their finite existence in the real universe and how truly unimportant we are as a species.

The fact that humans invent gods is really sad to me when modern technology and modern science is way more impressive and practical to our species than old childish myths.

I have to give kudos to those with the patience to walk down that Yellow Brick road with a theist. I simply don't have that patience when I already know that the curtain has been pulled back and man is the cause of god claims.

 

 

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Wow...thanks for playing.

First of all guys thank you for "responding" er playing...However I do think some of you like to get a little personal but I digress. I am not here to attack but merely to attest to my faith and explain why i believe in GOD. Bob...sorry bro but nomatter how you slice it, dice it, sautee it , or flambay it, you are still an agnostic just simply because you can not prove the nonexistence of a GOD as you understand it although you can say I refuse to believe in a GOD is your choice but ultimately you need proof to show you otherwise which in reality just makes you an agnostic unless you are telling me that even if you had proof there is a GOD you still wouldn't believe in him and that my friend would not make you an atheist but more of a fool. The bible says...A fool has said in his heart there is no GOD....I don't think of you as fools for I understand where you are coming from, but you don't quite understand where you are headed. Why, if Christianity, the most widespread,univerally adopted belief in the world, continue to exist if there was so much inconsistency or errancy as you put it? This should account for something. Why is there so much spirituality in the world,regardless of religion or beliefs? Have you experienced any paranormal activities or voodoo rituals and if so do you easily explain this away as someone spiked my tea? The bible says there are things of this world we don't understand...and even warns us to not lean to our own understanding...which by the way I am extremely guiilty of, because I think outside the box unlike most Christians or any other religous zealot out there. I did explain that GOD is not religion with the word GOD being the object of devotion not the practice itself. Obviously some of you get that and to those who don't are just arguing for the sake of arguing. GOD is the ultimate, scientist, biologist, chemicist, pharmacist, anthropologist and so on. The perception many of you have of GOD is what appears to be the root of your lack of belief in a higher power or omnipotent omniscient being. Is GOD a man, a purple dinosaur with 10 limbs and 20 wings......who or what is GOD. The word GOD comes from the hebrew word ELOHIM. That word is plural and means Family. Father(GODHEAD),Son(GODHEAD in human form),Holy Spirit and includes the 24 elders mentioned in Revelation, which you don't hear alot about. The bible says Let US Make Man In OUR Image so obviously we resemble the likeness of GOD. Look at it this way, GOD is like a diamond. A diamond has many facets. You turn the diamond this way and that way thus the light appears to dance encompassing many different colors which merely shows us as the result of GOD'S brilliance.

"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Odd how believers in God often try to attribute some form of human causation to an entity that is supposedly beyond their understanding. If god existed beyond human understanding, it would seem rather difficult to try and pinpoint the exact working of it's motives. Whether through religion or not.

The more I argue with believers the less patience I have with their apologies and the more I want to cut to the case.

I am tired of the "history" arguments.

I am tired of the "morality" arguments.

In the end there is not a lick of evidence for any pet deity, that a thought can arise out of a non-material process, much less one with super hero powers.

I see the "history" and "morality" crap as a distraction away from their starting naked assertion even before you get to those arguments.

The omni-god is a scientific absurdity alone, only made worse by it's contradictions of morality and it's even worse attitude that "I don't have to explain myself to you" and "It's all about me".

I am tired of the distractions.

There never was a cave god of animals. Vocanos were never gods. There never was a god named Osirus. Apolo was never real. And modern monotheism doesn't get a pass either just because it is currently popular.

Non-material beings with magical super powers are merely the inventions of ignorant humans who do not want to face their finite existence in the real universe and how truly unimportant we are as a species.

The fact that humans invent gods is really sad to me when modern technology and modern science is way more impressive and practical to our species than old childish myths.

I have to give kudos to those with the patience to walk down that Yellow Brick road with a theist. I simply don't have that patience when I already know that the curtain has been pulled back and man is the cause of god claims.

 

 

It is tiring and frustrating. But the topic is so convoluted.  I think we can see the implausability of such theistic claims but theists really can't.  You can show the conflicts discrepancies of the inerrant scripture but there will be a need for them to find a possible solution rather than taking any thing that would seem obvious to us. That is why I formalized that theodicy argument into a logical structure. No one yet has responded or attempted to defeat it.  I posted it last on the forum of TGBaker and Caposkia discussion. I have not heard from him in days. We in some sense must be like evangelicals because religion is already a danger to world peace and possibly its existence.


 

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So, badway, do you believe

So, badway, do you believe in the purple snarfwidgets that live in my shoes?

There's no evidence against their existence - so you have to believe in them (by your logic).

I could believe without evidence as you do if I were willing to sacrifice my honesty and integrity on the altar of your God. I will happily admit that I am not going to sell myself so cheaply.

As for the polytheism you espouse (having 27 gods) I appreciate your honesty in admitting to what Christians don't.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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BADWAY wrote:Dear agnostics

BADWAY wrote:

Dear agnostics and the like...let me substantiate the validity of my prior statements. True, we can all percieve our own truths but with out facts to support our own conclusions we then can only classify our statements as opinions and nothing more. God is not religion  anymore than any other object whether animated or non would be considered because it is not and I repeat, not the object itself that is religion. Religion is merely the practice of repetition in a nut shell. Like when someone cleans their house religously, they don't worship their home but they do certain practices that constitutes a particular order of steps as it were as it relates to their domicile existence. If your ultimate contention is that the bible is full of errancies, then one must also contend that various other books as well also contain either errancies, imperfections, mistakes etc thus calling certain "facts" into question. What I mean to say is that in this day our language has become so diluted and distorted with slang and changes to certain words in so much as that they may have evolved into having more than one meaning losing the original context for which that word was intended. Example the word gay. Gay used to mean just simply happy until it evolved into a word  to describe someones sexuality and now an adjective to describe something that is either disgusting or stupid as in the colloquial sense "That is so gay" with no intention to refer either to being happy or in reference to ones sexual orientation. So the word religion as I used it doesn't necessarily have to relate to a god or any diety for that matter. Other agnostics understand what I am saying and the fact one would question the validity of my perception as it relates to religion is nothing more than a vain attempt to justify your agnostic beliefs as it relates to your understanding or lack there of . Different denominations or orders as it relates to the belief in GOD and the CHRIST have every right to be challenged when there is inconsistencies regarding their religous practices. But GOD did not invent religion. Man invented religion to worship their notion of GOD or god/s. The GOD I believe in, is substantiated through my experiences , whether good,bad or indifferent. The fact that I am still homeless and believe in HIM is a testament to my faith. Would I be better off if I didn't believe in HIM? Would my lack of faith mean that I can now put a roof over my head or put food in my belly? It is my faith that has kept me going even when I have been hungry, kicked out of places and even have my stuff taken away from me. I am blessed not because of the good things that happend to me but because I survived in spite of the bad things that presented themselves to me. It is my Faith that makes me strong, not my self will!

 

 It took humans to come up with deity claims and sell those claims to others. You would not have even the gods of the caves if there wasn't some idiot painting them and selling those claims through whatever grunting language they had prior to the written tradition.

You still miss the point that pet deities exist, not because they are real, but because humans want them to be real so they sell their pet ideas to others. Religion is merely the successful marketing of these fictional beings. Saying you don't follow a religion is a distraction away from the fact you still buy an invisible friend claim.

"God is not religion" misses the point that the claim that a thought can occur from a non-material magical invisible super brain BY ANY NAME, call it a volcano, or Apollo or invisible, it is still a myth. Modern monotheism does not get a pass and neither do you merely by trying to claim "I don't follow a particular religion".

I don't care. You still postulate the absurdity that there is a magical invisible non-material brain that cares about us. So what, you simply have different packaging, that doesn't change the fact that the claim is nothing more than a hollow meaningless naked assertion.

God/s deities would not exist if there were not people around to invent them and sell them. They only exist as claims, not realities. Anymore than Thor is real because we can point to lightening.

You merely WANT a super hero. I hate to burst your bubble but there is no such thing as a super hero, which is what a god is. It wasn't true that the sun was a super hero and it's no more true because you claim it and give your super hero different clothing.

"Mine is different"

No it is not. It still requires YOU to allow your brains to fall out and blindly swallow it without any empirical way to test or falsify such claims.

"God is not religion" I don't care. You are still postulating an athropomorphic human like super hero with no material. You might as well be claiming an angry volcano as a god. Vocanos don't think, much less something with no material or location.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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TGBaker wrote:robj101

TGBaker wrote:

robj101 wrote:

I think most christians believe they all worship the same god ..the others are just doing it wrong.

Ask a protestant whether a Catholic will get to heaven. Most conservative ones will sy no. The fundamentalists will even state that the Vatican is anti-Christ. Calvin burnt Servetus at the stake because his doctrine of godhead did not conform to Calvin's.  Many protestants do believe as you say.  But Jean Chauvin will tell you if you ask him everyone else's  concept of god is not god and therefore of Satan.  Just as Christians often say that the Islamic Allah is a false god so do many denominations preach the same of other Christian denominations. Many will easily state that the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are cults and worship a false god. It really depends on where the denomination is on the conservative to liberal spectrum of theology.

 

 

   Yes, disunity within Christendom !!!   Please bring this up in your thread with Wowzers.   When red brought up the rather disconcerting fact that there are 38,000 separate Christian denominations Wowzer's response was basically "so what ?"        How could any thinking person not see what the implications are ?

 

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This is just an

BADWAY wrote:

First of all guys thank you for "responding" er playing...However I do think some of you like to get a little personal but I digress. I am not here to attack but merely to attest to my faith and explain why i believe in GOD. Bob...sorry bro but nomatter how you slice it, dice it, sautee it , or flambay it, you are still an agnostic just simply because you can not prove the nonexistence of a GOD as you understand it although you can say I refuse to believe in a GOD is your choice but ultimately you need proof to show you otherwise which in reality just makes you an agnostic unless you are telling me that even if you had proof there is a GOD you still wouldn't believe in him and that my friend would not make you an atheist but more of a fool. The bible says...A fool has said in his heart there is no GOD....I don't think of you as fools for I understand where you are coming from, but you don't quite understand where you are headed. Why, if Christianity, the most widespread,univerally adopted belief in the world, continue to exist if there was so much inconsistency or errancy as you put it? This should account for something. Why is there so much spirituality in the world,regardless of religion or beliefs? Have you experienced any paranormal activities or voodoo rituals and if so do you easily explain this away as someone spiked my tea? The bible says there are things of this world we don't understand...and even warns us to not lean to our own understanding...which by the way I am extremely guiilty of, because I think outside the box unlike most Christians or any other religous zealot out there. I did explain that GOD is not religion with the word GOD being the object of devotion not the practice itself. Obviously some of you get that and to those who don't are just arguing for the sake of arguing. GOD is the ultimate, scientist, biologist, chemicist, pharmacist, anthropologist and so on. The perception many of you have of GOD is what appears to be the root of your lack of belief in a higher power or omnipotent omniscient being. Is GOD a man, a purple dinosaur with 10 limbs and 20 wings......who or what is GOD. The word GOD comes from the hebrew word ELOHIM. That word is plural and means Family. Father(GODHEAD),Son(GODHEAD in human form),Holy Spirit and includes the 24 elders mentioned in Revelation, which you don't hear alot about. The bible says Let US Make Man In OUR Image so obviously we resemble the likeness of GOD. Look at it this way, GOD is like a diamond. A diamond has many facets. You turn the diamond this way and that way thus the light appears to dance encompassing many different colors which merely shows us as the result of GOD'S brilliance.

 

assertion blunderbus with a fringe of incomprehension. God is like a diamond. Oh. I see. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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BADWAY wrote:...I'm still

BADWAY wrote:

...I'm still homeless but I am going to Dallas and seeking a shelter. I am having a documentary being filmed about me...

 

Why did they choose you ?  In this economy there's plenty of homeless persons.  What is the pov of the documentary ?  Is it just the fact that you're without work, did they include your unique status regarding your being a cross-dressing Christian ?.....        

BADWAY wrote:
  ....and I am looking to become part of the Arts community here in Deep Ellum.
 

Did you know the young 24 year old kid Frankie Campagna, Jr. ?  He made the headlines in January.  I never met him but I felt bad for him.

 

BADWAY wrote:
This might be the change i needed especially since I just got kicked out of the Rec Center where i would hang out and take showers..
 

 

Why did you get kicked out ?  That seems rather odd. 

 

BADWAY wrote:
  I just lost about everything i owned and have stayed with my half sister on my dads side the last couple of weeks who discovered me on Facebook. I will let yall know how things are going guys/friends...
 

  M'kay.  

 

BADWAY wrote:
  if your an agnostic wish me luck and if your a Christian pray for me...

    I don't believe in luck or prayer but I do hope your shitty circumstances change for the better.

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

robj101 wrote:

I think most christians believe they all worship the same god ..the others are just doing it wrong.

Ask a protestant whether a Catholic will get to heaven. Most conservative ones will sy no. The fundamentalists will even state that the Vatican is anti-Christ. Calvin burnt Servetus at the stake because his doctrine of godhead did not conform to Calvin's.  Many protestants do believe as you say.  But Jean Chauvin will tell you if you ask him everyone else's  concept of god is not god and therefore of Satan.  Just as Christians often say that the Islamic Allah is a false god so do many denominations preach the same of other Christian denominations. Many will easily state that the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are cults and worship a false god. It really depends on where the denomination is on the conservative to liberal spectrum of theology.

 

 

   Yes, disunity within Christendom !!!   Please bring this up in your thread with Wowzers.   When red brought up the rather disconcerting fact that there are 38,000 separate Christian denominations Wowzer's response was basically "so what ?"        How could any thinking person not see what the implications are ?

 

The implications would be far to obvious which is partly why I put forward that most of them will agree it is the same god. If it were otherwise we would have pounced on this like a fresh cheese sandwich long ago.

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

robj101 wrote:

I think most christians believe they all worship the same god ..the others are just doing it wrong.

Ask a protestant whether a Catholic will get to heaven. Most conservative ones will sy no. The fundamentalists will even state that the Vatican is anti-Christ. Calvin burnt Servetus at the stake because his doctrine of godhead did not conform to Calvin's.  Many protestants do believe as you say.  But Jean Chauvin will tell you if you ask him everyone else's  concept of god is not god and therefore of Satan.  Just as Christians often say that the Islamic Allah is a false god so do many denominations preach the same of other Christian denominations. Many will easily state that the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are cults and worship a false god. It really depends on where the denomination is on the conservative to liberal spectrum of theology.

 

 

   Yes, disunity within Christendom !!!   Please bring this up in your thread with Wowzers.   When red brought up the rather disconcerting fact that there are 38,000 separate Christian denominations Wowzer's response was basically "so what ?"        How could any thinking person not see what the implications are ?

 

Surprizingly he answered that he is a centrist and feels that that many may view each other as heterodoxical but not unorthodox.


 

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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 Yes, it is the same

 Yes rob, it is the same ( Judeo / Christian ) God.   I am sure all 38,000 differing denominations believe that they are the exclusive purveyors of God's TRUTH and yet these 38,000 denominations who have willfully chosen to separate themselves from each other fail to see the blatant irony.

 With the addition of each new theological schism the credibility of their truth claim becomes even more suspect.

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TGBaker

TGBaker wrote:

 

 

 Surprizingly he answered that he is a centrist and feels that that many may view each other as heterodoxical but not unorthodox.

 

 

   But they are still at variance with each other whether or not they view one another as outright heretics....and these differences are still sufficient in their own eyes to justify branching off in order to separate themselves from those who do not share their theological pov.

   To an outsider who is observing this process of division it still comes down to an issue whom can you trust if they don't even trust each other ?

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 

 

 Surprizingly he answered that he is a centrist and feels that that many may view each other as heterodoxical but not unorthodox.

 

 

   But they are still at variance with each other whether or not they view one another as outright heretics....and these differences are still sufficient in their own eyes to justify branching off in order to separate themselves from those who do not share their theological pov.

   To an outsider who is observing this process of division it still comes down to an issue whom can you trust if they don't even trust each other ?

My expereince is that if you do not believe in baptism for the remission of sin in some denominations then you are not saved ( go to hell) Sprinkling does not count. other say the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses will got to hell. Calvinists  say a lot of supposed Christians ( meaning denominations ) are not the elect and will go to hell . Most conservative Christians I know think that Catholics are not saved and worship idols saints and will go to hell. So are in need of saving. Catholics think that protestants are not saved as they are not part of the church.  All of these are really different god's. The three in one God is not the Unitarian or Jehovah Witness god.  Within the Church of Christ I've seen disfellowhsipping based on whether there should be sunday school or not since it is not in the bible. They believe if you have a piano or organ in the Church it is not a church. You must go to church to be saved. Since you don't you ain't. And so on and so on .................................


 

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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TGBaker wrote:   My

TGBaker wrote:

 

  My expereince is that if you do not believe in baptism for the remission of sin in some denominations then you are not saved ( go to hell) Sprinkling does not count. other say the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses will got to hell. Calvinists  say a lot of supposed Christians ( meaning denominations ) are not the elect and will go to hell . Most conservative Christians I know think that Catholics are not saved and worship idols saints and will go to hell. So are in need of saving. Catholics think that protestants are not saved as they are not part of the church.  All of these are really different god's. The three in one God is not the Unitarian or Jehovah Witness god.  Within the Church of Christ I've seen disfellowhsipping based on whether there should be sunday school or not since it is not in the bible. They believe if you have a piano or organ in the Church it is not a church. You must go to church to be saved. Since you don't you ain't. And so on and so on .................................

 

 

    I was a fundamentalist Protestant Christian from the age of 15 until my early 40's when my faith fell apart.  I live in Texas which is awash in every brand of Christianity that you can think of.  On my father's side my aunt, uncle and cousins are devout Mormons ( underwear and all ) .   I'm aware of these factions from personal experience as well as observation.

   I'm aware of the non trinitarian view, ( Oneness Pentecostals )  

  They are still nothing more than different interpretations of the same Judeo / Christian God concept.    Just the shared terminology between the different sects should be enough to indicate that they are all drawing from the same source....

  I've often wondered why the term "Judeo / Christian God" is even accepted as Jews don't view God as a trinity as the Christians do.   This pairing makes no sense as Jews share a god concept more similar to the Muslims than Christians.    Yet the term persists.

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 

  My expereince is that if you do not believe in baptism for the remission of sin in some denominations then you are not saved ( go to hell) Sprinkling does not count. other say the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses will got to hell. Calvinists  say a lot of supposed Christians ( meaning denominations ) are not the elect and will go to hell . Most conservative Christians I know think that Catholics are not saved and worship idols saints and will go to hell. So are in need of saving. Catholics think that protestants are not saved as they are not part of the church.  All of these are really different god's. The three in one God is not the Unitarian or Jehovah Witness god.  Within the Church of Christ I've seen disfellowhsipping based on whether there should be sunday school or not since it is not in the bible. They believe if you have a piano or organ in the Church it is not a church. You must go to church to be saved. Since you don't you ain't. And so on and so on .................................

 

 

    I was a fundamentalist Protestant Christian from the age of 15 until my early 40's when my faith fell apart.  I live in Texas which is awash in every brand of Christianity that you can think of.  On my father's side my aunt, uncle and cousins are devout Mormons ( underwear and all ) .   I'm aware of these factions from personal experience as well as observation.

   I'm aware of the non trinitarian view, ( Oneness Pentecostals )  

  They are still nothing more than different interpretations of the same Judeo / Christian God concept.    Just the shared terminology between the different sects should be enough to indicate that they are all drawing from the same source....

  I've often wondered why the term "Judeo / Christian God" is even accepted as Jews don't view God as a trinity as the Christians do.   This pairing makes no sense as Jews share a god concept more similar to the Muslims than Christians.    Yet the term persists.

It is very insulting to Judaism which is monotheistic as opposed to Trinitarianism which regardless of the theology IS NOT. They are all wanting to claim thesame heritage and/or god. The point i was trying to make with Peter Rollin's work, "How Not to Speak about God" is that the construsts most if not all point to something other than the god they are looking for. If one is right then every other denomination is idolatry worshipping a false image of god.  That is a significant claim coming from within Christianity itself.


 

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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