Atheists Assaulted for Objecting to Prayer in Hawaii. WTF???

dassercha
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Atheists Assaulted for Objecting to Prayer in Hawaii. WTF???

This happened earlier in the year and may be old news to some but I just came across this and it makes me SICK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h7ekCD6uE4&feature=player_embedded

 

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100percentAtheist
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How did this story

How did this story end?

 

Eternal damnation? 


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atheists are a minority in 

atheists are a minority in  hawaii. i live there ;/

 

but no its not a bunch of hawaiians who believe in the old gods who are hating atheists, its just christians. which is the main religion there. christians or catholics

 

 

 


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Dmasterman wrote:atheists

Dmasterman wrote:

atheists are a minority in  hawaii. i live there ;/

 

but no its not a bunch of hawaiians who believe in the old gods who are hating atheists, its just christians. which is the main religion there. christians or catholics

 

 

 

 

Catholics ARE christians, wtf?

 


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100percentAtheist

100percentAtheist wrote:

Dmasterman wrote:

atheists are a minority in  hawaii. i live there ;/

 

but no its not a bunch of hawaiians who believe in the old gods who are hating atheists, its just christians. which is the main religion there. christians or catholics

 

 

 

 

Catholics ARE christians, wtf?

 

 

Ah but you see, most protestants consider catholicism a cult and therefore, not true christians. Esp. the likes of Southern Baptists who, well, hate everybody. 

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Dmasterman wrote:atheists

Dmasterman wrote:

atheists are a minority in  hawaii. i live there ;/

 

but no its not a bunch of hawaiians who believe in the old gods who are hating atheists, its just christians. which is the main religion there. christians or catholics

 

 

 

But I thought Buddhists had a pretty strong presense there. I know they have many Budddhist temples.  I estimate 20% to 40% of the population is Buddhist?  After all the native Hawaiian people are NOT Christian but were forced into it.  I know some still practice Native Hawaiian religion there and there is an island there that still has only Native Hawaiians and foreigners like us are not even allowed.

Plus of course there is all the Japanese influence.

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That was really horrible to

That was really horrible to watch. What's worse was the comments that some of the morons left about the video.

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.


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dassercha wrote:This

dassercha wrote:

This happened earlier in the year and may be old news to some but I just came across this and it makes me SICK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h7ekCD6uE4&feature=player_embedded

 

WOW! I just saw that video! Those idiots were VIOLATING the law with prayer in a government building!  You would think that would've happened in a redneck bible belt state like Alabama or something but Hawaii??!? I'm shocked!

Didn't the Atheists ever press charges like they said they would?? They'd easily win!

Christians are sick EVIL DEMONIACS!!!

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To be fair to this public

To be fair to this public venue, I don't think booting out this person was about being an atheist, I think it was about disturbing the peace. I am not saying that civil disobedience wasn't in order. Did this guy try to get on the docket before pulling this stunt?

SECONDLY, you are taking this very ambiguous video which shows nothing distinct and merely emotionally reacting to only what you can hear. Without actually seeing the physical contact, I cannot say that the court officers were going outside of what they were trained to do.

I totally agree that praying before a public venue, if you aren't allowing others to do the same, then that constitutes government favortism and IS unconstitutional.

But I don't think they booted this guy because he refused to pray. I think they booted him because he tried to shout over the event and disturb it.

If all he did was refuse to pray, which we cannot see on the video, then you would be right. But this video is hardly distinct and only offers his emotional reaction in audio. Unless I can see what physically happened I cannot determine by this video what actually happened.

DONT think I am siding with the venue. I am merely warning not to blindly go on your emotional reaction to the prayer, no matter how illegal it may be.

I think disturbing the peace was the issue. I am sympathetic to his reaction, believe me, but I cant see anything in this that would suggest it was because he refused to pray. It was because he disturbed the proceedings.

I would suggest to this guy, if he wants to make a statement, instead of shouting others down, to be persistent in showing up with an atheist shirt and sit in the front row on a regular basis, and invite other atheists to do the same thing. I would also get a group of atheists to get signatures to get on the docket so that they could take the floor and address them on the docket.

Shouting them down should be a last resort, but when you take these tactics it should not surprise you to get arrested.

 

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Brian,What happens when

Brian,

What happens when non-believers (or just non-christians) take such video and bring the charges against the speaker on the floor who invited and let this tax-dollar sponsored christian prayer?

If it is illegal, why is it not prosecuted?

100%

 

P.S.: I agree with you, it is very bad taste to use public disturbance to attract attention, and it should not be a surprise that the first guy who you attract is a security/police officers.


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100percentAtheist

100percentAtheist wrote:

Brian,

What happens when non-believers (or just non-christians) take such video and bring the charges against the speaker on the floor who invited and let this tax-dollar sponsored christian prayer?

If it is illegal, why is it not prosecuted?

100%

 

P.S.: I agree with you, it is very bad taste to use public disturbance to attract attention, and it should not be a surprise that the first guy who you attract is a security/police officers.

But in the video he clearly said he will be pressing charges and considering the way he was thrown to the ground and assaulted he most definitely has a case!!  So what was the result of lawsuit?  The video proof makes it a SLAM DUNK!!

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Brian37
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JesusNEVERexisted

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

100percentAtheist wrote:

Brian,

What happens when non-believers (or just non-christians) take such video and bring the charges against the speaker on the floor who invited and let this tax-dollar sponsored christian prayer?

If it is illegal, why is it not prosecuted?

100%

 

P.S.: I agree with you, it is very bad taste to use public disturbance to attract attention, and it should not be a surprise that the first guy who you attract is a security/police officers.

But in the video he clearly said he will be pressing charges and considering the way he was thrown to the ground and assaulted he most definitely has a case!!  So what was the result of lawsuit?  The video proof makes it a SLAM DUNK!!

Nothing in that video is clear. People all the time respond negatively to police procedure even when it is in the confines of the law. If he resisted because of his outburst and didn't settle down immediately the police are going to do what they have to to contain the disturbance. I saw nothing in that video that was distinct. All I could hear is him shouting and a shaky fuzzy video. That doesn't mean the police broke the law.

 

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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

100percentAtheist wrote:

Brian,

What happens when non-believers (or just non-christians) take such video and bring the charges against the speaker on the floor who invited and let this tax-dollar sponsored christian prayer?

If it is illegal, why is it not prosecuted?

100%

 

P.S.: I agree with you, it is very bad taste to use public disturbance to attract attention, and it should not be a surprise that the first guy who you attract is a security/police officers.

But in the video he clearly said he will be pressing charges and considering the way he was thrown to the ground and assaulted he most definitely has a case!!  So what was the result of lawsuit?  The video proof makes it a SLAM DUNK!!

Nothing in that video is clear. People all the time respond negatively to police procedure even when it is in the confines of the law. If he resisted because of his outburst and didn't settle down immediately the police are going to do what they have to to contain the disturbance. I saw nothing in that video that was distinct. All I could hear is him shouting and a shaky fuzzy video. That doesn't mean the police broke the law.

 

According to District Court judge Leslie Hayashi ruling the Security did break the law.

http://uiucatheists.blogspot.com/2010/12/brave-atheist-activists-illegally.html

Article wrote:

Number one, there was no disorderly conduct. Number two, he has a first amendment right to speak in a public forum such as he did. And number three, the legislature was violating our U.S. Constitution as well as the Hawaii constitution by having these invocations.

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13569794


 

Sounds made up...
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Magus wrote:Brian37

Magus wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

100percentAtheist wrote:

Brian,

What happens when non-believers (or just non-christians) take such video and bring the charges against the speaker on the floor who invited and let this tax-dollar sponsored christian prayer?

If it is illegal, why is it not prosecuted?

100%

 

P.S.: I agree with you, it is very bad taste to use public disturbance to attract attention, and it should not be a surprise that the first guy who you attract is a security/police officers.

But in the video he clearly said he will be pressing charges and considering the way he was thrown to the ground and assaulted he most definitely has a case!!  So what was the result of lawsuit?  The video proof makes it a SLAM DUNK!!

Nothing in that video is clear. People all the time respond negatively to police procedure even when it is in the confines of the law. If he resisted because of his outburst and didn't settle down immediately the police are going to do what they have to to contain the disturbance. I saw nothing in that video that was distinct. All I could hear is him shouting and a shaky fuzzy video. That doesn't mean the police broke the law.

 

According to District Court judge Leslie Hayashi ruling the Security did break the law.

http://uiucatheists.blogspot.com/2010/12/brave-atheist-activists-illegally.html

Article wrote:

Number one, there was no disorderly conduct. Number two, he has a first amendment right to speak in a public forum such as he did. And number three, the legislature was violating our U.S. Constitution as well as the Hawaii constitution by having these invocations.

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13569794


 

 

This is INSANE!!  It's like a burglar breaking into to someone's house and the homeowner gets prosecuted! It's the SECURITY that committed the crime so THEY are the ones who should be prosecuted!! 

The atheists were acquitted for doing NOTHING but aren't they going to follow up and press charges against Capitol security?? With the video evidence it's a SLAM DUNK!!

 

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Brian37
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JesusNEVERexisted

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

Magus wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

100percentAtheist wrote:

Brian,

What happens when non-believers (or just non-christians) take such video and bring the charges against the speaker on the floor who invited and let this tax-dollar sponsored christian prayer?

If it is illegal, why is it not prosecuted?

100%

 

P.S.: I agree with you, it is very bad taste to use public disturbance to attract attention, and it should not be a surprise that the first guy who you attract is a security/police officers.

But in the video he clearly said he will be pressing charges and considering the way he was thrown to the ground and assaulted he most definitely has a case!!  So what was the result of lawsuit?  The video proof makes it a SLAM DUNK!!

Nothing in that video is clear. People all the time respond negatively to police procedure even when it is in the confines of the law. If he resisted because of his outburst and didn't settle down immediately the police are going to do what they have to to contain the disturbance. I saw nothing in that video that was distinct. All I could hear is him shouting and a shaky fuzzy video. That doesn't mean the police broke the law.

 

According to District Court judge Leslie Hayashi ruling the Security did break the law.

http://uiucatheists.blogspot.com/2010/12/brave-atheist-activists-illegally.html

Article wrote:

Number one, there was no disorderly conduct. Number two, he has a first amendment right to speak in a public forum such as he did. And number three, the legislature was violating our U.S. Constitution as well as the Hawaii constitution by having these invocations.

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13569794


 

 

This is INSANE!!  It's like a burglar breaking into to someone's house and the homeowner gets prosecuted! It's the SECURITY that committed the crime so THEY are the ones who should be prosecuted!! 

The atheists were acquitted for doing NOTHING but aren't they going to follow up and press charges against Capitol security?? With the video evidence it's a SLAM DUNK!!

 

I cannot tell from the video if he was speaking out of turn. If he has documentation that he was on the docket, THEN YES, the security did violate his rights. If he was simply shouting them down, which what this sounds like, AND AGAIN, I cannot tell from the video because I cannot see what he was physically doing. That would be like asking a ref in the NFL to make a challenged call without video, when he had his  back turned to the play.

I CANNOT TELL either way what happened because the video is ambiguous. Merely from the video where we cannot physically see the guy, it sounds like he was disrupting the proceedings.

SERIOUSLY, you are trying to make this an emotional appeal, when I am simply talking about LAW.

EVERYONE has the right to free speech, GOT IT!

But none of us would want public proceedings  to become free for all shouting matches, so we have procedures in place to take turns speaking. Which is why you have to sign up to be on the docket to speak. Merely sitting in the gallery does not give you the right to stand up and shout whenever you feel like it.

I am not agreeing with the prayer. I am disagreeing with his tactic in rightfully objecting to the prayer. If his objective was civil disobedience, then he shouldn't be surprised that he got arrested. If it wasn't his objective then he took the wrong tactic.

What if it were the other way around? What if the panel decided not to pray, and a fundy was shouting at them WHY ARN'T YOU PRAYING! My argument would still be the same. Get on the docket and wait your turn. What you don't do is shout people down and disrupt proceedings. It is not an outdoor sidewalk protest.

The prayer is unconstitutional, but two wrongs dont make a right. To be a civil society we still have to maintain order and law is the only thing we have.

Now, having said that. THIS particular atheist may have had witnesses outside the video that confirm what you and this judge are saying.

I WAS STRICTLY saying that if we were only going by the video, and nothing more, it would NOT be enough for me to side with him. Obviously this judge has more than just this video to look at.

EXAMPLE:

If an atheist was giving an invocation and believers in the gallery shouted them down, wouldn't that constitute disturbing the peace? Now if these same believers were kicked out merely for not standing or turning their backs on the atheist, that would not constitute disturbing peace and the security would be violating their rights.

MY POINT IS LAW applies equally, if we don't want it favoring them, it should not favor atheists either.

The prayer IS unconstitutional, not because it is being done, but because the VENUE itself is monopolized by the believers. The way you get them to stop, is to force them to share the venue, once they see they have to share, they will do one of two things, start sharing, OR, more likely, stop praying all together.

Just like the bus company in Fort Worth(I believe) has decided not to allow any religious adds. Not because they are not religious, but because they didn't want the buses putting up atheist adds.

Government neutrality is not about banning something but about giving people a choice, let everyone have equal access to a venue, or don't let anyone do it at that venue. Government neutrality is not about banning anything, but about not playing favorites to one over another.

 

 

 

 

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Now that I have read the

Now that I have read the article, what I suspected is what happened. He DID disturb the peace, like it or not.

Go read the article, He stood up during the prayer and shouted "I object".

I OBJECT TOO, but there is a way to object and a way not to object. If we all got to disrupt proceedings because we don't like what someone is doing, nothing would get done and we would do nothing but shout at each other.

Now that I have read the article, it sounds to me that the judge is making a political statement rather than going by the law. I would have upheld the charge  him with disturbing the peace and said, "Look guy, I am with you, but this is not the way to do it".

I think the judge was trying to do the right thing, but bypassing law to make a political statement.

Again, if this guy's objective was civil disobedience then I would back him up if he accepted his arrest as wrong but accepted that it would happen. BUT that was not his intent. And since that was not his intent, what he should have done is gotten on the docket, or sued to use the same venue to give his own invocation.

AGAIN, even outside the issue of religion, we cannot maintain civility if we make free speech about shouting over others whenever we feel like it. Time place and context are not a ban on anything, but an agreement that there are ways to get your message out. OTHERWISE we would not have any order and we would not get anything done.

 

What I would suggest he do, instead of shouting, is to get a group of atheists with t-shirts "Separation" message on it, and go to as many meetings as possible and sit in the front row quietly. And then maybe have people with protest signs in the hallway were the council members have to pass, or even outside on the steps. What neither believers or atheists should have the right to do is speak out of turn at any public proceeding.

Just like you cant run a red light even when no one is around. Just because you see other people speeding doesn't give you the right to speed yourself.

 

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Brian37 wrote:Now that I

Brian37 wrote:

Now that I have read the article, what I suspected is what happened. He DID disturb the peace, like it or not.

Go read the article, He stood up during the prayer and shouted "I object".

I OBJECT TOO, but there is a way to object and a way not to object. If we all got to disrupt proceedings because we don't like what someone is doing, nothing would get done and we would do nothing but shout at each other.

Now that I have read the article, it sounds to me that the judge is making a political statement rather than going by the law. I would have upheld the charge  him with disturbing the peace and said, "Look guy, I am with you, but this is not the way to do it".

I think the judge was trying to do the right thing, but bypassing law to make a political statement.

Again, if this guy's objective was civil disobedience then I would back him up if he accepted his arrest as wrong but accepted that it would happen. BUT that was not his intent. And since that was not his intent, what he should have done is gotten on the docket, or sued to use the same venue to give his own invocation.

AGAIN, even outside the issue of religion, we cannot maintain civility if we make free speech about shouting over others whenever we feel like it. Time place and context are not a ban on anything, but an agreement that there are ways to get your message out. OTHERWISE we would not have any order and we would not get anything done.

 

What I would suggest he do, instead of shouting, is to get a group of atheists with t-shirts "Separation" message on it, and go to as many meetings as possible and sit in the front row quietly. And then maybe have people with protest signs in the hallway were the council members have to pass, or even outside on the steps. What neither believers or atheists should have the right to do is speak out of turn at any public proceeding.

Just like you cant run a red light even when no one is around. Just because you see other people speeding doesn't give you the right to speed yourself.

 

To use a football analogy - did he line up off side or was he drawn off?

They seemed to pay no attention during the invocation but only acted after everyone shouted Amen! over his objection.

I still think taking him outside and piling on solely to destroy the camera was overkill.

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