Hi everybody!

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Hi everybody!

Bored, thought I would join this forum to converse with fellow free thinkers, also have a concept I'm obsessed with that I will post in another area. Anyway I come from a moderate catholic family, for elementary and most of middle school I went to a private, protestant, christian school. I remember getting in trouble for having pokemon cards, in the middle of the ultra popular fad i asked why, the teacher told me it's because pokemon evolve.. and we don't believe in that lol. Anyway, without my experience there I most likely wouldn't be the skeptic I am today. That, and whenever I mentioned I was catholic they said really!?!?! as if i just said i was muslim, when I asked why? what's the difference? nobody could answer me. Same thing when I went to CCD and asked why the protestants are wrong, the main reason was because the catholic church was the first church, started by Jesus.

Anyway, I became a skeptic shortly after i took a biology class my sophomore year of public high school, learned about evolution and later geology. The sweater kept unraveling and began questioning my way to free thought. I honestly still believe in an afterlife, only because I had many vivid OBE's when i was younger, still have some occasionally today. Of course, I have no scientific evidence of this, therefore I don't fully believe it, I only fully believe what can be proven, it's merely a possibility. 

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed my life story! lol

Cheers =)


 

 

 

 


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Vortex wrote:Bored, thought

Vortex wrote:

Bored, thought I would join this forum to converse with fellow free thinkers, also have a concept I'm obsessed with that I will post in another area. Anyway I come from a moderate catholic family, for elementary and most of middle school I went to a private, protestant, christian school. I remember getting in trouble for having pokemon cards, in the middle of the ultra popular fad i asked why, the teacher told me it's because pokemon evolve.. and we don't believe in that lol. Anyway, without my experience there I most likely wouldn't be the skeptic I am today. That, and whenever I mentioned I was catholic they said really!?!?! as if i just said i was muslim, when I asked why? what's the difference? nobody could answer me. Same thing when I went to CCD and asked why the protestants are wrong, the main reason was because the catholic church was the first church, started by Jesus.

Anyway, I became a skeptic shortly after i took a biology class my sophomore year of public high school, learned about evolution and later geology. The sweater kept unraveling and began questioning my way to free thought. I honestly still believe in an afterlife, only because I had many vivid OBE's when i was younger, still have some occasionally today. Of course, I have no scientific evidence of this, therefore I don't fully believe it, I only fully believe what can be proven, it's merely a possibility. 

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed my life story! lol

Cheers =)


 

 

 

 

Welcome. But no, there is no after life, period. When you die you die, that is it.

As far as Outer Body Experiences, that is nothing more than your intense electro-chemical activity in your brain fooling with you and mixing your subconscious with your conscious> It was not real no matter how real you thought it was.

These vivid dreams which is all they are, can be triggered by stresses you might have not been aware of.

I had those when i was a kid too. It is all in your head, nothing more.

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Welcome! Congratulations on

Welcome! Congratulations on gaining your freedom of thought.

IMO, it's okay to speculate and hope for things like the afterlife. I really don't have much of a problem with that. It's when people are certain about it, and especially when they try to impose their views on others that it bothers me.

Personally, I don't believe in it. I do however believe that people genuinely do have OBEs and NDEs, with emphasis on the 'experience' part of it. The thing is, though, that we already know that our brains are fallible, and often give rise to dreams, illusions, hallucinations, visions, voices, etc. that aren't really there.

I was taking an afternoon nap one day in the dormitory at my university, and while laying comfortably and half-waking up, I saw a very vivid ghost. It was a girl I knew in a rocking chair, rocking back and forth and laughing, except there was no sound at all. I looked away briefly or closed my eyes, and when I looked back, she was gone.  I immediately thought to myself, "Ah! That must be what it's like for people who see 'ghosts' and things like that."

Two reasons I know it wasn't a real ghost: 1) The girl in the vision was a girl I knew, perfectly well alive, and had no recollection of any such a strange experience. 2) I had already learned about hypnogogic hallucinations, which are very common upon falling asleep or waking up, kind of like dream experiences mixing with waking experiences.

Always look for corroborating external evidence for strange personal experiences.

Paraphrasing Richard Feynmann: The goal is to not let yourself be fooled, and the easiest person to fool is yourself.

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Welcome aboard.

 

 

 

                     The beauty of freethinking is that we are not realy trying to convert you to our way of thinking but to consider a rational response to OBE and the afterlife.  Basicly we pride ourselves on a rational response to any scenario, welcome to the site.

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I already commented on your

I already commented on your other thread but hello anywaySmiling


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@Brian37I see, but how do

@Brian37

I see, but how do you know this for sure? Have there been any scientific experiments that show electric-chemical activity can do this? I realize that the subconscious mind plays a heavy role in the dreams that we experience, but why would it simulate me leaving my body for no reason? The OBE's I experience are quite different from my dreams, there's no characters, there's no storyline, there's no dreamy fuzz that most dreams have. It's just me, inside my room, everything is vivid and real, except I'm floating and I'm not in my body. I fully accept the fact that it could all just be a hallucination, but so far I haven't found anything scientific to fully convince me. Yes, there have been countless study's on sleep, dreams, and NDE's, but nothing has come up so far to explain what I and others are experiencing. I really hope that more is done on this subject, someday, hopefully soon, there will be solid evidence that there is a soul or that it is a unique hallucination, I can't wait because I will be very content and happy with either answer.

 

@Natural

Thanks! Very interesting, I've had experiences like that as well, usually chalk them up to odd dreams. I completely agree with you when it comes to beliefs, I love Richard Dawkin's explanation of faith, he defines it simply as "the practice of non-thinking". I often find myself in open arguments with religious people because I don't hesitate to challenge them on there ignorant opinions. However, I define myself as a general skeptic and not a strong atheist because it seems like to be an atheist you have to be an absolute scientific materialist, which would mean discarding/ignoring certain experiences that I've had. Of course, I don't have full belief in anything until it can be proven to me scientifically, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to read metaphysical and philosophical works such as the "Tao Te Ching" by Lau Tsu, to give one example, or ponder the nature of the universe.

 

@Jeffrick

Thanks, I always appreciate open mindedness and discussion. I always make sure I'm as rational as possible, question everything. 

 

 

[Edit] Hello Rebecca!

 

 


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Hello and welcome!I'm glad

Hello and welcome!

I'm glad to see someone both thinking and experienced. Faith gives no actual answers even on metaphysical questions, because it is truly a way of non-thinking as Dawkins says. It seems to me that faith is a method of inducing feelings. Feelings always feel real, no matter if they are justified by reality.
If you want answers and have OOBEs, then try an experiment. Have someone to place a paper in your room with a symbol, word, number and color on it, front side up but somewhere you can't see form the ground. Don't look at the paper unless in the ghost form. Keep a pencil and paper next to your bed. If you ever get to OOBE then have a look, try to remember what is there and write it down after waking up. Then compare the papers.
To make the test more trustworthy for outsiders, have this paper placed at someone else's apartment.

Vortex wrote:
I remember getting in trouble for having pokemon cards, in the middle of the ultra popular fad i asked why, the teacher told me it's because pokemon evolve.. and we don't believe in that lol.
But Pokemons are a fairy tale, and they believe that, right?! Smiling

Vortex wrote:

@Brian37

I see, but how do you know this for sure? Have there been any scientific experiments that show electric-chemical activity can do this? I realize that the subconscious mind plays a heavy role in the dreams that we experience, but why would it simulate me leaving my body for no reason? The OBE's I experience are quite different from my dreams, there's no characters, there's no storyline, there's no dreamy fuzz that most dreams have. It's just me, inside my room, everything is vivid and real, except I'm floating and I'm not in my body. I fully accept the fact that it could all just be a hallucination, but so far I haven't found anything scientific to fully convince me. Yes, there have been countless study's on sleep, dreams, and NDE's, but nothing has come up so far to explain what I and others are experiencing. I really hope that more is done on this subject, someday, hopefully soon, there will be solid evidence that there is a soul or that it is a unique hallucination, I can't wait because I will be very content and happy with either answer.

I think Brian is trying to explain things with what is already proven and nothing more. That's Occam's razor. The question is though, why would brain want to deceive itself in such a modest way as imagining your room. I have some questions: do you ever look at your bed? What light is there, is there a night?

I once had an OOBE when I was a kid. And I saw my body on the bed, I actually consciously returned in there, because standing in my room was boring. Then I woke up. It never happened again. I believe that dreams and OOBE have something to do with emotionality, which is something that I have rather lacking.

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Hi there

Let's see - your mind can convince you of anything you want to believe.  Very sneaky.  I like to beat my mind occasionally, just to keep it from running away with itself.  (I'm a fan of "Over the Hedge" and Hammy the squirrel.)

My sister is a Jehovah's Witness.  According to her, Catholics are idolators who are following the devil himself.  But she is pretty loony.  She really does think praying to saints or Mary or ... is worshiping idols.  But when I asked her why it wasn't idolatry to pray to Jesus, her answer was "it just isn't the same!" not seeing, of course, that it is exactly the same.

I lost the faith once because I was assured that playing solitaire in my own home with my parents assisting and kibitzing would allow satan to leap out of the cards and steal my soul.  Fortunately, my mom thought that was as dumb as I did.

Post often and welcome.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Quote:I see, but how do you

Quote:
I see, but how do you know this for sure?

Thoughts require material, period, Thoughts do not occur outside the brain. So that OBE experience is nothing more than my brain being subconsciously imaginative mixing with my conscious state(open eyes, sounds, smells, touch, memories).

NO credible psychology or neurological science lab takes this shit seriously, other than it being a mental delusion  to be studied as a mental delusion.

Just like you would never study "ghost theory" in a college or even high school science lab. It is conspiracy woo that people like believing, just like Big Foot and Crap circles. It is all in your head, nothing more.

 

 

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Quote:but why would it

Quote:
but why would it simulate me leaving my body for no reason?

For the same reason an amputee claims they can still feel their foot. You are looking for a reason, when dream states are hardly predictable but can be feel very powerful and very real, no matter how false they are,

There is no "reason" other than they happen. Misfire is what it amounts to. Your neurons from many aspects of your brain fire without you being aware of it, and mix in this dream state. Just like neurons in an amputee's brain can fire off sending a false sensation that the foot is still there.

No one is doubting you when you say "it feels real". My OBE's felt real too. And if I ever had one again, I would know after hand what was really going on.

In fact, I had a bad dream last week and woke up crying. My crying was real, and my emotions reacting to that dream were real, but that didn't make the dream real, even though I felt a real reaction to that dream. Feeling like you are floating outside your body is nothing more than an intense false feeling, just like my REAL crying was a reaction to a dream.

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Brian37 wrote:Quote:but why

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
but why would it simulate me leaving my body for no reason?

For the same reason an amputee claims they can still feel their foot. You are looking for a reason, when dream states are hardly predictable but can be feel very powerful and very real, no matter how false they are,

The amputated limbs still may exist in some form. Kirlian photography shows, how a leaf with its part cut off still retains outline of the missing part. Furthermore, Harry Oldfield with his Polycontrast Interference Photography observed a similar effect with amputated limbs, as he writes in this brochure.

The answer is, that human being is composed of several subtle bodies. When one gets damaged or dies, the others keep working. They are less or more autonomous, specially the astral body that we occupy in dreaming stages. However, these bodies are usually not well adapted to function as a whole, so mutual communication is problematic. This is why our memories of dreams are so often distorted. Often the astral body does nothing on it's own, but stands by as the brain processes the memories of a previous day. It is a part of us over which we usually have almost no control. But of course, you can gain control by training and discipline. Then you can explore the world as Robert Allan Monroe in his Far Journeys series.

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@LuminonVery interesting,

@Luminon

Very interesting, I've read about astral projection and what not. The only problem i have with it is that it seems to be often tied into much of the new age bull that's all over the internet. Ill certainly try your picture experiment, the only thing is I can't really induce it, it happens randomly, often when I sleep in. So I'm going to have my friend put a random picture in her closet, next time I have an OBE ill attempt to travel to her house and see the picture. Ill also have her place a low power night light near it, just in case I can't see.

 

@Brian37

Also interesting explanation, hopefully soon I will know for sure. I completely agree with you when it comes to ghosts and other nonsense. However this is something I've experienced and therefore I want to explore it further. In the case of amputees I could understand, but wouldn't the lack of nerves cause this effect to wear off after awhile? I don't get why so many people describe this effect years after their accident, why doesn't the human brain adapt to the fact that it's missing a limb and divert mental resources to the rest of the body? 


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Quote: However this is

Quote:
However this is something I've experienced and therefore I want to explore it further.

And I have told you that I have had these "experiences" as well.

I felt just as much intensity im my prior OBE as I did the dream I told you about that I had last week. The difference is that I realize that there is no magic to life and that my brain was simply playing hookie. Kinda like when the parents go on vacation and leave the house to the teens.

You cant control your own biology at that extent. You cant tell your neurons what to do, you can only respond to input.

Which makes more sense to you?

That there really is a guy in a red suit who gives gifts to every kid in the world?

Or,

People make that shit up?

Which makes more sense to you?

Your dick will fall off if you eat pork?

Or

People make that shit up?

Which makes more sense to you?

Dreams/ emotions, feelings are always real and always correct.

Or

People get freaked out by their own natural biology and mistake it to be real?

There is nothing to research, otherwise every credible science lab in the world would be studying it.

They only way crap like what you and I experienced should be studied should be a study of mental defect and delusion, and why those things happen.

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Brian37 wrote:There is

Brian37 wrote:

There is nothing to research, otherwise every credible science lab in the world would be studying it.

And how do you expect the credible science labs to start researching such a suspicious subject? If my Latin would be better I'd name this fallacy properly. It is a fallacy of "if A would be true, A would be already proven". Perhaps it is circular logic.

Brian37 wrote:
They only way crap like what you and I experienced should be studied should be a study of mental defect and delusion, and why those things happen.
If that is a mental defect, then please explain why people experience OOBE without any pathologic effects. For example, Robert Allan Monroe started experiencing OOBEs every night and he went to a doctor. Both physically and mentally, he was found completely healthy and continued having OOBEs for many years, probably up to his death.

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Has anyone who has had OOBE

Has anyone who has had OOBE ever been tested to see if this was actually what is happening?

You know with like little looking at a card not facing the person having the experience sort of thing.  Or a random word appearing on a screen where the subject could not see.

Sounds made up...
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People believe this crap for

People believe this crap for the same reason some people believe there was a man on the grassy knoll.

Outer body experiences only need to be studied like schizophrenia needs to be studied. If you want to study it strictly as part of human psychology, I would be for it. But to take this delusional belief seriously, one might as well believe that Ouija boards work and might as well believe Area 51 crap.

It is nothing but one species of superstition because filling in the gaps with rational answers is hard, intellectual laziness is easy. People would rather believe something they don't have to test because feeling an answer is right is easy, testing something with scientific method is much harder.

The simple explanation for this is that people want to believe it actually happened and are fooled by their own brain chemistry. The alternative is absurdity. The naked assertion that your "whatever" thoughts and you can float outside you magically and be separate from your physical body is bullshit.

I refuse to coddle such absurdity merely because a portion of human population willfully ignores reality. For the same reason I would call bullshit on someone claiming the earth to be flat.

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Brian37 wrote:People believe

Brian37 wrote:
People believe this crap for the same reason some people believe there was a man on the grassy knoll.

Outer body experiences only need to be studied like schizophrenia needs to be studied. If you want to study it strictly as part of human psychology, I would be for it. But to take this delusional belief seriously, one might as well believe that Ouija boards work and might as well believe Area 51 crap.

It is nothing but one species of superstition because filling in the gaps with rational answers is hard, intellectual laziness is easy. People would rather believe something they don't have to test because feeling an answer is right is easy, testing something with scientific method is much harder.

The simple explanation for this is that people want to believe it actually happened and are fooled by their own brain chemistry. The alternative is absurdity. The naked assertion that your "whatever" thoughts and you can float outside you magically and be separate from your physical body is bullshit.

I refuse to coddle such absurdity merely because a portion of human population willfully ignores reality. For the same reason I would call bullshit on someone claiming the earth to be flat.

Hey, this does not seem right, so I'll try to express it to you somehow.
Quite oppositely, it is easy to fill in the answer by rationally sounding nonsense that does not give any further possibilities. It is very tempting to resort to mechanistic, materialistic "explanations", because they're the lowest common denominator of reality. It is a truism, that the brain activity is carried out by brain chemistry. But it is short-sightedness to presume that brain chemistry is alpha and omega of the brain! All human history and cultures are full of messages about mental activities that can not be initiated by brain chemistry.
You use the irrationality as all-powerful "explanation" of everything. But in there is also a virtue of authenticity, the ability to see things empirically as they were observed, not as the rational mind tries to interpret them according to imperfect knowledge.

Realize, that which you condemn is caused by emotionality. People believe, because every mention of grassy knoll or Jesus gives them thrill. They are not interested in reality, but in having that feeling again and again. But sometimes there will come a time in their lives when they will keep getting hurt unless they recognize the value of facts.

Emotion pushes the scales of truth in subjective direction. And look at yourself, you're angry about these bullshitters.
Realize, that there is nothing wrong with considering any idea, as long as it is impartial and therefore non-emotional. There are people who study many strange things intellectually and they can not be accused of laziness, for their study is equivalent to one or more university degrees. Their study is even harder, for the knowledge is not presented to remember, but in itself is a conundrum that trains the mind.

Furthermore, realize that you rely on a well-trodden path of institutions. Do you believe that these institutions are able to start an impartial research of completely new fields, that are burdened by derogatory cultural connotations of irrationality? Nope, every man in the chair will do his best to uphold the profitable status quo until his retirement.
And those who don't have the stature and great salary to lose, must go to work and take care of their family. They do not have time nor money to do the procedures of double-blind study or travel or hiring experts and expensive technology. The following is a freely translated quote from a book I currently read, written by a doctor with 14 years of practice, who saw the futility of doctorish butchery and became very effective healer in alternative medicine.

"The healer will never have a nurse, a secretary, wages department, faculty, chamber, ministry, insurance company and the whole bureaucratic apparatus that would live of his skills. He has to manage on his own and so he simply has to omit certain activities not essential for restoration of health. And what about evidence? The patient does not need it, he experiences it."

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Magus wrote:Has anyone who

Magus wrote:

Has anyone who has had OOBE ever been tested to see if this was actually what is happening?

You know with like little looking at a card not facing the person having the experience sort of thing.  Or a random word appearing on a screen where the subject could not see.

Robert Allan Monroe, the pioneer of OOBE and audio technology founded The Monroe Institute. After his death, TMI continues in the research of consciousness for more than 30 years. You should look at their journal of studies, and for you I found the one study about OOBE that should interest you.

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If I claim to be a PHD in

If I claim to be a PHD in "Ghostology" what exactly am I an expert in?

Star Trec fanatics who know every line of every episode of every show of every series have more credibility than any superstitious crackpot. At least they accept what they are fans of as fiction.

Again THOUGHTS REQUIRE A MATERIAL PROCESS,

There is no such thing as you floating out of yourself. There are only people who do not understand how the human brain works and how it can fool itself.

There is no such thing as Big Foot. There is no Loc Ness Monster. Little Green men do not exist nor do they print objects in corn fields. There are just credulous morons who buy bullshit because they like the way it sounds.

"Outer body experience" is nothing but an utterance of human ignorance because they are to fucking lazy to understand mundane human psychology.

 

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Quote:Realize, that which

Quote:
Realize, that which you condemn is caused by emotionality.

Yea, just like it SHOULD drive you nuts if someone went around claiming the world was flat.

Of course I am emotional about it because selling this type of bullshit sells people LIES!

Otherwise it would be widely as accepted in the scientific community as DNA and quarks. Funny how "OBE" theory is never taught in high school or college biology or MD classes.

OBE is nothing but the same ilk as Big foot and Ouija boards and deserves as much credit as alchemy. Bullshit is bullshit, no matter how elaborate the person tries to sell it.

Luminon, I find it funny how ready you are, and how rightfully you dismiss the claims of others superstitions, but don't see the same lack of universal evidence that your own claims have.

OBE is nothing more than a mundane psychological gap answer for a very ordinary delusion.

It is bullshit, and I find no shame in being emotional about calling bullshit bullshit. Otherwise Santa is real because people like the idea of Santa being real.

You have as much evidence that OBE's are real as Muslims do for Allah and as the Egyptians did for the sun being a god. If you actually believe that you can float out of your body, then you might as well believe the moon is made of cheese.

 

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Brian37 wrote:If I claim to

Brian37 wrote:

If I claim to be a PHD in "Ghostology" what exactly am I an expert in?

Astral life forms, I guess. Astral dimension, a.k.a. Cosmic liquid realm is our neighbouring separate world and a lot of trouble comes from there. Astral objects are interpreted by our astral double and subsequently by physical brain as thoughts. And vice versa, thoughts are astral objects. I guess you should at least read the basic hypotheses. You can read more in dedicated literature if you want.

Brian37 wrote:

Again THOUGHTS REQUIRE A MATERIAL PROCESS,

There is no such thing as you floating out of yourself. There are only people who do not understand how the human brain works and how it can fool itself.

...

"Outer body experience" is nothing but an utterance of human ignorance because they are to fucking lazy to understand mundane human psychology.

The idea is such, that there are many states of matter, represented by dimensions of M-theory or equivalently by esoteric cosmology. There is no floating out of yourself, because the body is not yourself, it is one of vehicles of consciousness.

 And I could add something about people too fucking lazy to study esoteric psychology.

 

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
Realize, that which you condemn is caused by emotionality.

Yea, just like it SHOULD drive you nuts if someone went around claiming the world was flat.

Of course I am emotional about it because selling this type of bullshit sells people LIES!

These are not just lies, they're triggers of feelings. You've got to distinguish between those who claim things because it gives them thrill, and those who try to understand the world.

Brian37 wrote:
Otherwise it would be widely as accepted in the scientific community as DNA and quarks. Funny how "OBE" theory is never taught in high school or college biology or MD classes.
Hey, OBE is astral phenomenon. Astral matter is even more elusive than Dark matter, its light is more diffcult to photograph and so on. For now, there are only people who can make astral contacts, but that's not the best method. People are taught about the astral world by esoteric teaching and explorers well ahead of scientific understanding.

Brian37 wrote:
OBE is nothing but the same ilk as Big foot and Ouija boards and deserves as much credit as alchemy. Bullshit is bullshit, no matter how elaborate the person tries to sell it.

OBE is nothing more than a mundane psychological gap answer for a very ordinary delusion.

You have as much evidence that OBE's are real as Muslims do for Allah and as the Egyptians did for the sun being a god. If you actually believe that you can float out of your body, then you might as well believe the moon is made of cheese.

It is bullshit, and I find no shame in being emotional about calling bullshit bullshit. Otherwise Santa is real because people like the idea of Santa being real.

Delusion is a false belief, which is false because...? I'd rather stay with psychiatric definition of delusion, which says it is a side-effect of illness. If healthy people can have OOBE, then either delusion is universal explanation for everything that you don't like, or OOBE is not a delusion.

 

Brian37 wrote:

 Luminon, I find it funny how ready you are, and how rightfully you dismiss the claims of others superstitions, but don't see the same lack of universal evidence that your own claims have.

I'm satisfied with the plentiful evidence I have, but I don't have money, time, knowledge, technology and contacts to make universal evidence of it. Probably nobody in this state has, except of those who in return have no will for it. If I can see evidence even in my basic conditions without advanced technology, why more qualified people can't see any evidence at all? I don't know, I can only guess. One of my guesses is, that they say if that would be real, someone would already discover it. Another guess is, that there is no real political will to do so.

This is a cultural process. Companies dependent on status quo have no interest to speed it up. No insurance company will pay healers' expenses. No law will recognize alternative medicine. Despite of the fact, that for decades well-studied and experienced doctors keep leaving the medicinal butchery and druggery and start really helping the patients as healers. There was and is increasing number of people for whom the conventional medicine did nothing good, quite opposite. This is, because conventional medicine works only with body, it ignores emotionality, mentality and spirituality. It ignores past lives and purpose of this life. And it often ignores innovative tendencies that go from mechanistic approach to health to more gentle and psychosomatic approach.
This is not a question of simple scientific recognition and acceptance of another particle, another cell type and so on. This will be a revolution.
 

 

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Here I found a good quote of

Here I found a good quote of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, from Isis Unveiled. Words of that great woman are even today most apposite:

[[Vol. 1, Page]] 41 WHERE LIES THE BURDEN OF PROOF.

The position assumed by modern scientists is that even though the occurrence of certain mysterious phenomena in the presence of the mediums be a fact, there is no proof that they are not due to some abnormal nervous condition of those individuals. The possibility that they may be produced by returning human spirits need not be considered until the other question is decided. Little exception can be taken to this position. Unquestionably, the burden of proof rests upon those who assert the agency of spirits. If the scientists would grapple with the subject in good faith, showing an earnest desire to solve the perplexing mystery, instead of treating it with undignified and unprofessional contempt, they would be open to no censure.

True, the great majority of "spiritual" communications are calculated to disgust investigators of even moderate intelligence. Even when genuine they are trivial, commonplace, and often vulgar. During the past twenty years we have received through various mediums messages purporting to be from Shakespere, Byron, Franklin, Peter the Great, Napoleon and Josephine, and even from Voltaire. The general impression made upon us was that the French conqueror and his consort seemed to have forgotten how to spell words correctly; Shakespere and Byron had become chronic inebriates; and Voltaire had turned an imbecile. Who can blame men trained to habits of exactitude, or even simply well-educated persons, for hastily concluding that when so much palpable fraud lies upon the surface, there could hardly be truth if they should go to the bottom? The huckstering about of pompous names attached to idiotic communications has given the scientific stomach such an indigestion that it cannot assimilate even the great truth which lies on the telegraphic plateaux of this ocean of psychological phenomena.

They judge by its surface, covered with froth and scum. But they might with equal propriety deny that there is any clear water in the depths of the sea when an oily scum was floating upon the surface. Therefore, if on one hand we cannot very well blame them for stepping back at the first sight of what seems really repulsive, we do, and have a right to censure them for their unwillingness to explore deeper. Neither pearls nor cut diamonds are to be found lying loose on the ground; and these persons act as unwisely as would a professional diver, who should reject an oyster on account of its filthy and slimy appearance, when by opening it he might find a precious pearl inside the shell.

Even the just and severe rebukes of some of their leading men are of no avail and the fear on the part of men of science to investigate such an unpopular subject, seems to have now become a general panic. "The phenomena chase the scientists, and the scientists run away from the phenomena," very pointedly remarks M. A. N. Aksakof in an able article on Mediumism and the St. Petersburg Scientific Committee. The attitude of this body of professors toward the subject which they had pledged themselves to investigate was throughout simply disgraceful. Their premature and prearranged report was so evidently partial and inconclusive as to call out a scornful protest even from unbelievers.

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Quote:Astral life forms, I

Quote:
Astral life forms, I guess. Astral dimension, a.k.a. Cosmic liquid realm is our neighbouring separate world and a lot of trouble comes from there. Astral objects are interpreted by our astral double and subsequently by physical brain as thoughts. And vice versa, thoughts are astral objects. I guess you should at least read the basic hypotheses. You can read more in dedicated literature if you want.

Why? I can also read Harry Potter and find nice sounding motifs in it without literally believing little boys fly around on brooms.

This is nothing but bullshit. Seriously Lum, just because you don't buy into standard established superstition doesn't mean you get a pass.

If your bullshit were credible it would be taught along side entropy and thermodynamics. Your superstition is the same as the old bullshit. I like you Lum, but I won't treat your claims any differently just because you say "no really this different".

No it is not.

You need to STOP buying into the new age superstitions and conspiracies just like the standard myth lovers need to give up on their invisible friends. You ARE in the exact same boat they are with as much evidence as they have for their claims.

A duck is a duck no matter how much you claim it isn't.

I really wish people would stop coming to this site with new age stuff and claim to be atheists when their woo is no different than old woo. Woo is woo no matter how new the packaging is.

If you want to convince me that your claims are credible, then do the same thing I challenge Caposkia(sp).

1. Obtain peer reviewed established data

2. Set up a testable model based on established method

3. Plug established data into your model

4. Test the model and set up control groups to insure quality of data output

5. Replicate and falsify and repeat and repeat and repeat

6. Hand over data and model to independent outsiders with no horse in the race and have them kick the tires.

 

When you can do this, I will hand you the Nobel Prize myself.

Otherwise your woo is no different than any other woo and it is merely all in your head. "But my woo is newer" won't cut it.

 

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Not out-of-body experiences,

Not out-of-body experiences, but 'spiritual revelations' none the less -

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

This is life
it's a fucked up thing we do
it's a nightmare come true
or a playground if we choose
and I choose
- I Choose by the Offspring


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Brian, there are so many

Brian, there are so many obstacles in your method. For example, who will pay me for my time and necessary technical equipment? If there is a double-blind study, then I need to pay more people to handle the results. Or someone else must pay them, not me? What does it mean to be estabilished? If I try to do something revolutionary, there is no estabilished method. I need more research (money, people, know-how, technology...) to find out the method first.
Is there anybody who really must react and review a study, who is not allowed to ignore it, who must vouch for receiving it for examination? What arguments can I use to convince outsiders to test my data? They too need someone to pay for their time and expenses. They will have to buy the same equipment. Presuming, that it is a technical equipment. Currently, most of my equipment is my brain and nerve system, but nobody has the same nerve system, so this is not quite a standardized equipment.

Hell, if I'd manage to universally prove existence of anything etheric or higher, I'd deserve half dozen of Nobel prizes - not for the discovery, but for defeating the myriad of adverse people, institutions and companies and their interests to preserve the profitable status quo. It's better to not say who. There is a lovely saying: the constitution guarantees me freedom of expression, but nobody guarantees me freedom after the expression Smiling

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Luminon wrote:It's better to

Luminon wrote:
It's better to not say who.

Say who ! Say who !!

 

 


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Anonymouse wrote:Luminon

Anonymouse wrote:

Luminon wrote:
It's better to not say who.

Say who ! Say who !!

Local politicians, lobbyists, the police, and so on, you don't know them. There are certain mechanisms allowing large-scale corruption, bribery and lobbyism in the highest places and if there would be anything good in these people, they would patch these legal holes 20 years ago. This is the state of thieves, nation of Kozeny and Krejcir, state with the most expensive highways in the world, the banana republic of Europe. If anyone would want to estabilish truth and righteousness here, we'd probably have a civil war. In my country there aren't just laws to watch out for, but also power and financial interests.

For example, I can not prove the truth of alternative medicine, because it does not use pharmacology and pharmaceutical companies would lose their monopoly profit. They have their lobbyists at Health ministry to force the doctors to use their approved and patented medicines - which are highly expensive - instead of equally effective and cheaper non-patented medicines. Doctors must write recipes not to cure people, but to make profit for the firms and to pay for expensive medical equipment. And our taxes go to private companies and political lobby. This is why those who attempt to legalize alternative medicine have more problems than just proving scientifically that it works. Look, an example. How many others weren't caught?

If the conventional medicine is so well tested and effective, why are people still sick? Why they are permanently cardiacs, epileptics, psychotics and so on, until they die? Why the pills that they must take for years will not cure them? Why no doctor cares how the condition occured, but just writes a recipe for medicine? Why the need for doctors doesn't decrease? Why nobody is completely healthy? Why no rational person links the events in our life and mind with our health state? Is it rational to believe that in causal universe there is no link between us and our diseases? No link between what we do and what happens to us? That shit just happens? People had these attitudes in history, they believed that childbed fever "just happens", they believed that mice appear out of filth, and that atoms are indivisible. Always, they found a hidden complex order behind everything. So why don't we always actively search for a hidden order in everything? Why the scientists tell common people like me to do their work for them?

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Luminon wrote:the banana

Luminon wrote:
the banana republic of Europe.

Meh, almost all Europeans call their country that at some point. Isn't it just fatalism and laziness, though ? Easier to complain that to work to fix it ?

Or do you have a sneaking suspicion that if you ever held a position of power yourself, you'd find out it wasn't that simple ?

Luminon wrote:
For example, I can not prove the truth of alternative medicine, because it does not use pharmacology and pharmaceutical companies would lose their monopoly profit.

You're not going to hear me say much good about pharmaceutical companies. They've gotten very rich of the crap they fed my mom over the years, and the benefits, while crucial, are minimal.

But here's the thing : Alternative medicine tried too. They got even more money out of her, and oh yeah, they nearly killed her.

See, it's really simple : Either something works, or it doesn't. All the rest is crap, and here I speak for everyone with a terminally ill family member.

In other words, if it works, then you can prove it. If it doesn't, then you can't. No lobbyist, monopoly, or corrupt doctor is going to change that.

Luminon wrote:
If the conventional medicine is so well tested and effective, why are people still sick? Why they are permanently cardiacs, epileptics, psychotics and so on, until they die? Why the pills that they must take for years will not cure them?

Because life's not fair, that's why. Some conditions can't be cured yet. Only the symptoms can be alleviated. Duh.

Luminon wrote:
Why no doctor cares how the condition occured, but just writes a recipe for medicine?

Careful now. Doctors most certainly DO care. Funding for conventional research isn't exactly growing on trees. And it just so happens that there are quite a lot of doctors who won't give a patient a prescription if he doesn't urgently need it, even if the patient in question physically threatens them.

Luminon wrote:
Why the need for doctors doesn't decrease?

Because the world population is still growing.

Luminon wrote:
Why nobody is completely healthy?

Because they're doctors. Not magicians.

Luminon wrote:
Why no rational person links the events in our life and mind with our health state?

It's called psychiatry.

Luminon wrote:
Is it rational to believe that in causal universe there is no link between us and our diseases? No link between what we do and what happens to us? That shit just happens?

I think you'll find conventional medecine acknowledges a link between patients and their conditions.

Luminon wrote:
People had these attitudes in history, they believed that childbed fever "just happens", they believed that mice appear out of filth, and that atoms are indivisible. Always, they found a hidden complex order behind everything. So why don't we always actively search for a hidden order in everything?

And when the "order" is no longer "hidden", we're talking about conventional medecine, so what's your point ?

Luminon wrote:
Why the scientists tell common people like me to do their work for them?

That would be very irresponsible if they did, so lucky for us that they don't.

 


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Oh, uh, Hi Vortex ! Welcome.

Oh, uh, Hi Vortex ! Welcome.


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Quote:Brian, there are so

Quote:
Brian, there are so many obstacles in your method.

It is not my method. I did not make up the concept of replication and falsification and independent verification. That method was established long before I was born.

What you cant do is square your new age woo with established method. Don't try to pawn your lack of evidence on someone who didn't set up the rules.

If you have a better system than scientific method, I am all ears.

When you can get the entire scientific community to accept your little green men theory like gravity and evolution, then you will have something. But it is NOT up to me to bow to you just because you don't like my objections to your claims. It is up to you to prove your claims. Otherwise any idiot making a claim can claim whatever they want.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts. Scientific method is the way we filter out our own bias. Get your little green men on Larry King and Oprah and have Dawkins and the AMA confirm your little green men theory at a UN meeting, then it can be considered universal.

But, just like Ouija boards, it is a safe bet to me, that the only way you can perpetuate your tripe is convincing yourself that ambiguity is your only life raft.

There was no third man on the grassy knoll and Santa isn't real and Jesus did not survive rigor mortis.

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Quote: institutions and

Quote:
institutions and companies and their interests to preserve the profitable status quo.

DUH, would you like me to call that into Fox or CNN?

Here is the mistake you are making. You are confusing a person, with the tool the person uses. It would be like blaming a hammer when the carpenter hits their thumb with it.

Scientists are human, but the "method" itself is a tool and just like any tool, it can be misused. But that does not make the tool itself obsolete.

What you are trying to do is say, "No one is buying my woo, so therefor the hammer is to blame"

No, the reality is that you conflate "My woo is not the same old myth as older woo"

I come along and say, "fine" show me the money by using the hammer properly.

Instead you hit yourself on your thumb and blame the hammer.

You don't want to admit you have a bias. You don't want to think about it being merely all in your head because it sounds nice.

If there really were something credible to what you say, then it would be taught in every major university and even high schools and would not be limited to WWE conspiracy shows.

The WWE works, not because pro wresting is real, but because people like the act.

Think about absurdities you reject and apply that same logic to your own claims.

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Isn't it funny that you, and

Isn't it funny that you, and I and Oprah and Larry King and a Muslim and Jew and Hindu, can all agree that a car works by the same concept? No matter our personal bias, a car works by the concept of a combustion engine. And for that matter, no matter our personal bias, the computers you and I type on, despite their varying make up, still all work on the principle of machine language?

Isn't it funny that a Jew, a Muslim and an atheist can all jump off a skyscraper without the aid of anything breaking their fall we will all splat on the ground?

And isn't it funny that humans have always had a history of making bad guesses more so than getting things right?

All I am telling you, is to date, the best way to filter out our pet whims as individuals is to replicate and falsify. A history of claims does not constitute evidence, otherwise the earth would be flat and the sun would really be a god. I treat your little green men theory no different.

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Brian37 wrote:It is not my

Brian37 wrote:

It is not my method. I did not make up the concept of replication and falsification and independent verification. That method was established long before I was born.

What you cant do is square your new age woo with established method. Don't try to pawn your lack of evidence on someone who didn't set up the rules.

If you have a better system than scientific method, I am all ears.

When you can get the entire scientific community to accept your little green men theory like gravity and evolution, then you will have something. But it is NOT up to me to bow to you just because you don't like my objections to your claims. It is up to you to prove your claims. Otherwise any idiot making a claim can claim whatever they want.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts. Scientific method is the way we filter out our own bias. Get your little green men on Larry King and Oprah and have Dawkins and the AMA confirm your little green men theory at a UN meeting, then it can be considered universal.

But, just like Ouija boards, it is a safe bet to me, that the only way you can perpetuate your tripe is convincing yourself that ambiguity is your only life raft.

There was no third man on the grassy knoll and Santa isn't real and Jesus did not survive rigor mortis.

Brian, there is something that has to be done even before the scientific method. It is gathering of data, preliminary examination that will later serve as input for the scientific method. This initial investigation is unfortunately also diffcult and costly, because there is nothing yet to show to potential donors. Scientific method can't be used anywhere, it needs some hard facts and knowledge of physical mechanisms. How can I demonstrate the proverbial "little green men", if their physical properties are not easily detectable by standard devices? First I need to make them testable somehow, then I can employ the scientific method.

Yes, there is a better method than scientific one. It is a trained intuitive revelation, subsequently verified by scientific method.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.