The Existence of your Soul

KPO89
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The Existence of your Soul

I'd like to pose a question simply out of curiosity. Do you believe in the existence of your soul? Is there something more to you than your physical life? Or do you believe there is nothing more to life other than what you can see or touch?

Please give a brief explanation behind your thought process.

 

For the purpose of this discussion please define the soul as:

 

"part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body--the metaphysical part as distinct from the physical part"

 

1. Soul or no soul?

 

2. If you do have a soul do you believe it to have a longer life span than your physical life.

 

Thanks guys. Have a good weekend!!!


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I don't believe in a

I don't believe in a "soul."  I haven't found any good evidence that points to a life force that goes on after death, and untill there is such evidence I can't believe it exists.  Besides that it doesn't seem to make any sense to me.  I've always thought that if we have "souls," then so would chimps, or dogs and cats, where does is stop?  Do ants have souls?  Does bacteria have souls?  I can't see any reason to believe you go on after death.  You require energy to fuel your body to have the thoughts you are having now, you have to intake this energy.  Eventually when you die the energy will disipate out of your body, life is gone.  From what I can see, it's as simple as that.  No body and no fuel = no life.    


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I have discussed similar

I have discussed similar themes here and I've found NO atheist that believed that "we are more than the sum of the parts"... I believe in NO religion, still they labeled me as a theist... not that I care! LOL I'm much more a theist than an atheist! If those are the only 2 choices I get! 

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"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Teralek wrote:I have

Teralek wrote:

I have discussed similar themes here and I've found NO atheist that believed that "we are more than the sum of the parts"...

  Hey, I'd lke to.  I'd love to live on, "float around in the spirit world" with all my friends and family forever.  As long as it was a free place.  But I can't see any reason to believe you go on in any way shape or form.  Can you show me how we are more than the sum of our parts?  Are you saying we do go on somehow? 


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 Hmmm... I had it laying

 Hmmm... I had it laying around here somewhere. Where did I put it........under the couch? Nope. No soul here, must have lost it. Maybe I sold it. How much does a soul fetch on ebay nowadays? 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:I

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

I don't believe in a "soul."  I haven't found any good evidence that points to a life force that goes on after death, and untill there is such evidence I can't believe it exists.  Besides that it doesn't seem to make any sense to me.  I've always thought that if we have "souls," then so would chimps, or dogs and cats, where does is stop?  Do ants have souls?  Does bacteria have souls?  I can't see any reason to believe you go on after death.  You require energy to fuel your body to have the thoughts you are having now, you have to intake this energy.  Eventually when you die the energy will disipate out of your body, life is gone.  From what I can see, it's as simple as that.  No body and no fuel = no life.    

Well, if you've read anything on the eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism they believe EVERY living thing has a soul even bacteria and insects.  Of course that's no less crazy that the insane pie in the sky crap Christianity has been trolling for millenia!!

But you stated it well buddy. There is nothing to indicate that a soul exists and we live on after death in any form. As a matter of fact every bit of evidence indicates we totally cease to exist forever upon death!

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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JesusNEVERexisted

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

I don't believe in a "soul."  I haven't found any good evidence that points to a life force that goes on after death, and untill there is such evidence I can't believe it exists.  Besides that it doesn't seem to make any sense to me.  I've always thought that if we have "souls," then so would chimps, or dogs and cats, where does is stop?  Do ants have souls?  Does bacteria have souls?  I can't see any reason to believe you go on after death.  You require energy to fuel your body to have the thoughts you are having now, you have to intake this energy.  Eventually when you die the energy will disipate out of your body, life is gone.  From what I can see, it's as simple as that.  No body and no fuel = no life.    

Well, if you've read anything on the eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism they believe EVERY living thing has a soul even bacteria and insects.  Of course that's no less crazy that the insane pie in the sky crap Christianity has been trolling for millenia!!

But you stated it well buddy. There is nothing to indicate that a soul exists and we live on after death in any form. As a matter of fact every bit of evidence indicates we totally cease to exist forever upon death!

  It's because of those eastern philosophies I think that way about the soul when asked, and then it even more so makes no sense to me that life goes on. 


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KPO89 wrote:I'd like to pose

KPO89 wrote:

I'd like to pose a question simply out of curiosity. Do you believe in the existence of your soul? Is there something more to you than your physical life? Or do you believe there is nothing more to life other than what you can see or touch?

Please give a brief explanation behind your thought process.

 

For the purpose of this discussion please define the soul as:

 

"part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body--the metaphysical part as distinct from the physical part"

 

No, we have exactly zero evidence for disembodied minds, let alone a 'metaphysical' realm separate from the physical. There is such a thing as the mind which is not strictly the body, but as far as we can tell, all minds are embodied in bodies -- in much the same way that all software is encoded in a physical hardware medium.

The only rational position regarding the evidence we have about minds is the position of physicalism.

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1. In my opinion and

1. In my opinion and experience there soul, but external soul. The soul is a greater entity which dwells in higher dimensions. It's task is to explore the material world on Earth, by sending an extension of itself, a person repeatedly into incarnation, by trying to communicate with the person, and make the man or woman in incarnation better representant of divine principles natural for the soul's domain. The soul is something like a personal and collective god, but really it is a higher part of ourselves. Typically, Christians and other theists mistake the soul influence for the love and work of God or Jesus. Many mystical teachings are or were less or more comprehensible instructions how to estabilish contact with the soul...

There are of course many teachings on the nature of God or spiritual worlds, but we can't test or use them. The soul is the nearest and most important representation of divinity and work or experimenting with it in everyday life is possible and advisable.

2. The soul does not die, neither it ever gets born. It is able to comprehend material world, but is not able to interact with it directly. It has, however, from it's high perspective, quite a good overview of the time itself. It does not travel in time, but due to it's greater scope of vision it can much better estimate future events. It has also holds all the experience of person's previous incarnations. And if it doesn't know something, then it is interconnected with all other human souls, so in a limited way it resembles omniscience, as far as we are concerned. For those reasons, contact with the soul is very useful, although it's a hobby that requires some discipline.

This is originally a part of teaching of Theosophic movement and related authors. My group was able to expand upon it greatly. We have good results with it in our personal lives, but all this is a personal evidence, not objective material evidence. Everyone interested are encouraged to try that for themselves. Many theists or non-theists with spiritual inclinations find out, that something (the soul) responded in some way, when they invoked a higher force.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

I don't believe in a "soul."  I haven't found any good evidence that points to a life force that goes on after death, and untill there is such evidence I can't believe it exists.  Besides that it doesn't seem to make any sense to me.  I've always thought that if we have "souls," then so would chimps, or dogs and cats, where does is stop?  Do ants have souls?  Does bacteria have souls?  I can't see any reason to believe you go on after death.  You require energy to fuel your body to have the thoughts you are having now, you have to intake this energy.  Eventually when you die the energy will disipate out of your body, life is gone.  From what I can see, it's as simple as that.  No body and no fuel = no life.  

Here the teaching says, that animal species typically have a kind of oversoul, a collective soul for all the species of let's say slugkind or ratkind. The teaching meticulously explains, how warm-blooded animals are ensouled internally, so eating them is not as spiritually advisable as eating cold-blooded animals, like fishes. Domestified animals are considered as the most advanced and eventually some of them will be ready to individualize and incarnate as humans, but that only happens in specific historical periods.

Of course, none of that has any practical use, except of completion and coherence of the teaching. Except to silence the vegans and the those who regret killing vermin. If I kill all the vermin (like slugs) my machette can reach, maybe after a few millenia the slug oversoul will realize it's mistakes and will avoid the vegetables of my grandma.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

I don't believe in a "soul."  I haven't found any good evidence that points to a life force that goes on after death, and untill there is such evidence I can't believe it exists.  Besides that it doesn't seem to make any sense to me.  I've always thought that if we have "souls," then so would chimps, or dogs and cats, where does is stop?  Do ants have souls?  Does bacteria have souls?  I can't see any reason to believe you go on after death.  You require energy to fuel your body to have the thoughts you are having now, you have to intake this energy.  Eventually when you die the energy will disipate out of your body, life is gone.  From what I can see, it's as simple as that.  No body and no fuel = no life.    

Well, if you've read anything on the eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism they believe EVERY living thing has a soul even bacteria and insects.  Of course that's no less crazy that the insane pie in the sky crap Christianity has been trolling for millenia!!

But you stated it well buddy. There is nothing to indicate that a soul exists and we live on after death in any form. As a matter of fact every bit of evidence indicates we totally cease to exist forever upon death!

  It's because of those eastern philosophies I think that way about the soul when asked, and then it even more so makes no sense to me that life goes on. 

 

What?? The Christnut way is just as crazy if not more! It's right out of a comic book! You disappear in a poof of smoke and you magically appear in an imaginary place called the pearly gates and then you play the approximate equivalent of game show to see how you did in life to see if you'll be let into heaven!

It's no surprise that the percentage of people believing in that fairy tale has drastically decreased in the west over the last 100 years.

Did you know many Buddhists and Hare Krishnas were actually ex-Christians?  It's because the eastern religions actually give a reason as to why bad things happens in this life while Christianity gives no such explaination and just says "it's god's mystery". 

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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KPO89 wrote:I'd like to pose

KPO89 wrote:

I'd like to pose a question simply out of curiosity. Do you believe in the existence of your soul? Is there something more to you than your physical life? Or do you believe there is nothing more to life other than what you can see or touch?

 

You are putting forth a false dichotomy in your preface and in your definition- which is itself very vague.

 

I suspect this may be in order to advance your view point without understanding others' views.  Obviously I have no way to confirm this, but in my suspicion I can't answer a loaded question beyond indicated that the reasoning behind it is flawed, and that answering it would not serve any honest purpose.

 

I you had chosen to define a soul more accurately, I might be more inclined to answer:

"A non-material part of the self that perpetuates continuity of consciousness and cognition independently of the body, and controls the actions of the body while residing within it as the ultimate executor of the decision making process"

 

To that, there is no evidence for such a thing, and all evidence is against it- indicating that thought, decision making, and memory are material processes in the brain, and that brain damage or other changes to the brain can affect those processes.


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Luminon wrote:1. In my

Luminon wrote:

1. In my opinion and experience there soul, but external soul. The soul is a greater entity which dwells in higher dimensions. It's task is to explore the material world on Earth, by sending an extension of itself, a person repeatedly into incarnation, by trying to communicate with the person, and make the man or woman in incarnation better representant of divine principles natural for the soul's domain. The soul is something like a personal and collective god, but really it is a higher part of ourselves. Typically, Christians and other theists mistake the soul influence for the love and work of God or Jesus. Many mystical teachings are or were less or more comprehensible instructions how to estabilish contact with the soul...

There are of course many teachings on the nature of God or spiritual worlds, but we can't test or use them. The soul is the nearest and most important representation of divinity and work or experimenting with it in everyday life is possible and advisable.

2. The soul does not die, neither it ever gets born. It is able to comprehend material world, but is not able to interact with it directly. It has, however, from it's high perspective, quite a good overview of the time itself. It does not travel in time, but due to it's greater scope of vision it can much better estimate future events. It has also holds all the experience of person's previous incarnations. And if it doesn't know something, then it is interconnected with all other human souls, so in a limited way it resembles omniscience, as far as we are concerned. For those reasons, contact with the soul is very useful, although it's a hobby that requires some discipline.

This is originally a part of teaching of Theosophic movement and related authors. My group was able to expand upon it greatly. We have good results with it in our personal lives, but all this is a personal evidence, not objective material evidence. Everyone interested are encouraged to try that for themselves. Many theists or non-theists with spiritual inclinations find out, that something (the soul) responded in some way, when they invoked a higher force.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

I don't believe in a "soul."  I haven't found any good evidence that points to a life force that goes on after death, and untill there is such evidence I can't believe it exists.  Besides that it doesn't seem to make any sense to me.  I've always thought that if we have "souls," then so would chimps, or dogs and cats, where does is stop?  Do ants have souls?  Does bacteria have souls?  I can't see any reason to believe you go on after death.  You require energy to fuel your body to have the thoughts you are having now, you have to intake this energy.  Eventually when you die the energy will disipate out of your body, life is gone.  From what I can see, it's as simple as that.  No body and no fuel = no life.  

Here the teaching says, that animal species typically have a kind of oversoul, a collective soul for all the species of let's say slugkind or ratkind. The teaching meticulously explains, how warm-blooded animals are ensouled internally, so eating them is not as spiritually advisable as eating cold-blooded animals, like fishes. Domestified animals are considered as the most advanced and eventually some of them will be ready to individualize and incarnate as humans, but that only happens in specific historical periods.

Of course, none of that has any practical use, except of completion and coherence of the teaching. Except to silence the vegans and the those who regret killing vermin. If I kill all the vermin (like slugs) my machette can reach, maybe after a few millenia the slug oversoul will realize it's mistakes and will avoid the vegetables of my grandma.

 

Wow

~~Be Real~~


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Thank you!

No loaded question just taking a poll if you will. Trying to understand your beliefs or lack thereof.

 

Thanks for the insightful answers


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KPO89 wrote:"part of a

KPO89 wrote:

"part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body--the metaphysical part as distinct from the physical part"

 

1. Soul or no soul?

 

2. If you do have a soul do you believe it to have a longer life span than your physical life.

 

Many things could fit this definition of a "soul" in that regard. Suppose I was download the contents of my mind into a computer such that the computer looked, walked, and talked like me. This could mean that the sequence of bytes in the computer are a soul. So...I dunno.

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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I enjoy reading Luminon I

I enjoy reading Luminon

I know Theosophy to some extent, I have a friend who enjoys that thing and I have read about it. But I don't buy it... somethings don't add up... Many of the things you spoke with certainty I don't know about them with that clarity.

I believe in a soul as defined by Blake: "A non-material part of the self that perpetuates continuity of consciousness and cognition independently of the body, and controls the actions of the body (by decision making) while residing within it as the ultimate executor of the decision making process"... but beyond that many things are a mystery to me. It is kind of confusing to have another me to which I can talk to. Moreover if this other me is "perfect" why does it need to get experience on Earth? Why do we have to learn and grow here for the benefit of the other me? If there is a soul like I think there is... reality is much more amazing and everything will make sense judging from NDEs.

Well, from the reading of other texts, from my personal experience and from NDEs experiences (which I believe to be true in their transcendental nature). I believe that the self continues after death, and it is in this sense that I can call the soul the higher self. It is higher because it becomes exponentially more aware of the Existence and it's surroundings after being released from the physical body. It will then become more knowledgeable because of the much more enhanced senses... Before physical death, however, through techniques of meditation and others which cultivate inner peace, I believe that we can be a bit more self aware like our totally disembodied soul is. In this sense I believe in the personal rewards Luminon talked about. But not because the separate entity of our Higher Self intercedes, but because we get more in touch with the Universal Love that surrounds us all and promotes our wellbeing. This Love, peace and knowledge, improve us as persons like no other thing, it enhances our compassion, humility, peace, patience, love, etc… and these are the true personal rewards. No matter how you interpret but Buddhists and theosophists could do the same thing giving them different explanations.

As to animals Luminon explanation makes perfect sense to me. I don't know if it's true but I've thought about it. We humans have one thing animals don't. Consciousness and the ability of recognizing the "I" - the first pre requisite for consciousness.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Nope.One question though.

Nope.

One question though. Does your soul have a huge penis? Because mine would be HUGE.


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robj101 wrote:Nope.One

robj101 wrote:

Nope.

One question though. Does your soul have a huge penis? Because mine would be HUGE.

 

Why?  Because the one you have now is so small?

 

 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Teralek wrote:I enjoy

Teralek wrote:

I enjoy reading Luminon

 

I know Theosophy to some extent, I have a friend who enjoys that thing and I have read about it. But I don't buy it... somethings don't add up... Many of the things you spoke with certainty I don't know about them with that clarity.

Thanks Smiling Well, it's a complex teaching, almost as complex as a real science of the soul would be. It takes years to read up on basics of general New Age concepts and then years to tackle the toughest books. Many people don't buy it, because they haven't read enough of essentials to make it give sense. For example, the Christianity gives no sense, unless you learn, that it was usually about gathering your "treasure in heaven" through reincarnation, and only later was reworked into a copy of Tartaros and Elysium.

Teralek wrote:
I believe in a soul as defined by Blake: "A non-material part of the self that perpetuates continuity of consciousness and cognition independently of the body, and controls the actions of the body (by decision making) while residing within it as the ultimate executor of the decision making process"
Yeah, that is not a soul, but astral body. It gets mistaken for soul really often. Astral body is a bodily vehicle that handles things like consciousness in most of afterlife, but also people's emotionality. Astral body is currently most of people's seat of consciousness, because they're emotional creatures. But with development there are more perfect vehicles of consciousness to become dominant.

Teralek wrote:
  ... but beyond that many things are a mystery to me. It is kind of confusing to have another me to which I can talk to. Moreover if this other me is "perfect" why does it need to get experience on Earth? Why do we have to learn and grow here for the benefit of the other me? If there is a soul like I think there is... reality is much more amazing and everything will make sense judging from NDEs.
Well, explaining that is not simple, but it can be done. First you have to consider, that there is no such thing as "you". The consciousness itself streams as a pure light from the soul, through figurative lenses or filters of mental, astral and physical body, being coloured and distorted on the way down. What gets down into physical body, is an illusory projection of consciousness, which is dependent on the state your bodies are in.
The consciousness itself is a projection, shade on the wall, but there are more shades. Our consciousness is a patchwork. Just remember, body wants something, the reason says otherwise and you are deciding somewhere in between them.

Why does the soul need experience on Earth? For many reasons. For example, the soul has some idea of high ideals that are perfection for us, but it wants to bring it to material manifestation, and that takes a lot of work. Just remember the parable of God's kingdom on Earth. This is what will happen when humanity will work under the purpose, impression and guidance of the kingdom of souls. Kingdom of souls is a natural kingdom, just like human, animal, plant and mineral. It is all right for us to domestify animals, cultivate plants and work with minerals. But we have to remember, that in similar fashion our souls are here to perfect us. For some aeons ahead, we are here to convey higher principles from higher kingdom to ours and lower. 
 

Teralek wrote:
Well, from the reading of other texts, from my personal experience and from NDEs experiences (which I believe to be true in their transcendental nature). I believe that the self continues after death, and it is in this sense that I can call the soul the higher self. It is higher because it becomes exponentially more aware of the Existence and it's surroundings after being released from the physical body. It will then become more knowledgeable because of the much more enhanced senses... Before physical death, however, through techniques of meditation and others which cultivate inner peace, I believe that we can be a bit more self aware like our totally disembodied soul is. In this sense I believe in the personal rewards Luminon talked about. But not because the separate entity of our Higher Self intercedes, but because we get more in touch with the Universal Love that surrounds us all and promotes our wellbeing. This Love, peace and knowledge, improve us as persons like no other thing, it enhances our compassion, humility, peace, patience, love, etc… and these are the true personal rewards. No matter how you interpret but Buddhists and theosophists could do the same thing giving them different explanations.

What you refer to is a classical effect of astral body, that is indeed free of limitations of physical brain. It is much more free and perceptive, although less powerful in sheer logical computing power.

 

But as for the soul which I mean, IT IS Love. Love and wisdom are it's dominant qualities and the soul can flood the person with selfless, absolute and universal love, towards self, everything, everyone and nothing at the same time. I have experienced that a lot. This love is a natural property of the soul. It has however problems expressing it in physical reality. In reality you can express it by doing things like building schools and hospitals, fighting poverty, making an inspirative and uplifting music and films, and so on. Once you estabilish some contact with soul, (with meditation let's say) then meditation is not as important, as using in reality this energy that you receive from the soul. People who don't use the energy they receive, become neurotic.

A technical remark... The esoteric phrase that "we were made in God's image" refers to the triplicity of Father, Son and Holy spirit found in Christianity and Hinduism. The image of us is a similar structre of a Monad (spirit) manifesting the divine Will, the soul manifesting the Love-wisdom and personality, manifesting the intelligent active principle, or dying trying. These three things together are one human being. They don't yet work together well, but when they will, the human being will be perfected as much as it can get on Earth, and this is basically what all these teachers including Jesus wanted us to do all along.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Soul is an imaginary concept

 

contrived by the human brain as a cognitive crutch to allay fears of mortality. I wish I had a soul and I would love to live forever in paradise being feted by Oberon's flower-haired fairies.

But because the concept is a proofless bunch of crap I am forced to accept that when my body dies, my mind will go with it. And with my mind will go the fabricated mental concept of soul.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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KPO89 wrote:I'd like to pose

KPO89 wrote:

I'd like to pose a question simply out of curiosity. Do you believe in the existence of your soul? Is there something more to you than your physical life? Or do you believe there is nothing more to life other than what you can see or touch?

Please give a brief explanation behind your thought process.

 

For the purpose of this discussion please define the soul as:

 

"part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body--the metaphysical part as distinct from the physical part"

 

1. Soul or no soul?

 

2. If you do have a soul do you believe it to have a longer life span than your physical life.

 

Thanks guys. Have a good weekend!!!

 

 

1.  No Soul.  In its metaphysical essence, things have no materialistic sense.  I am a materialist, so the idealistic metaphysical concept of soul is foreign to me.  If you agree to call soul an informational image of a host during and after his/her physical live, than I would say yes soul.  But this my definition just means all the information that people leave after their physical live.   You, most likely, think of a metaphysical soul as an intellectual entity continuing its intellectual live after the death of the physical body.  So far, you can only believe this, no evidence is possible in this case.  No one came back. Smiling

 2.  Yes, if soul would exist, according to available fantasies, it would have a longer life span than the physical body.


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I agree with 100 per cent

100percentAtheist wrote:

KPO89 wrote:

I'd like to pose a question simply out of curiosity. Do you believe in the existence of your soul? Is there something more to you than your physical life? Or do you believe there is nothing more to life other than what you can see or touch?

Please give a brief explanation behind your thought process.

 

For the purpose of this discussion please define the soul as:

 

"part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body--the metaphysical part as distinct from the physical part"

 

1. Soul or no soul?

 

2. If you do have a soul do you believe it to have a longer life span than your physical life.

 

Thanks guys. Have a good weekend!!!

 

 

 

1.  No Soul.  In its metaphysical essence, things have no materialistic sense.  I am a materialist, so the idealistic metaphysical concept of soul is foreign to me.  If you agree to call soul an informational image of a host during and after his/her physical live, than I would say yes soul.  But this my definition just means all the information that people leave after their physical live.  You, most likely, think of a metaphysical soul as an intellectual entity continuing its intellectual live after the death of the physical body.  So far, you can only believe this, no evidence is possible in this case.  No one came back. Smiling

 2.  Yes, if soul would exist, according to available fantasies, it would have a longer life span than the physical body.

 

 

and Blake's comments upthread on this. I wonder if there's not an element of essentialism to the theistic insistence of a soul. It would be interesting to see how many christians still have a close personal relationship with their teddy bears. Maybe there's a correlation between faith and the ability to infuse inanimate objects with strong emotion and abstract meaning.

All children do this - and most adults have an inherent tendency to similar behaviours. I've been thinking lately that essentialism could be one of the roots/the root of human spirituality. There's no reason why humans could not apply such feelings to their physical selves. It would be surprising if they did not.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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 Well, Luminon, I will not

 

Well, Luminon, I will not argue with you, because you may be right. Everything you've said doesn't go against that which I already know.

But I'm in a position where I'm not yet sure of the truth beyond what I know. I don't take for granted what other people tell me... I investigate, I read, I compare to what I know and I check with scientific knowledge.

Being prudent, skeptical, humble and inquisitive is generally my position. However I live perfectly ok with the unknown, I don't mind not knowing because I know the essential - Love is the way.

Luminon wrote:

Yeah, that is not a soul, but astral body. It gets mistaken for soul really often. Astral body is a bodily vehicle that handles things like consciousness in most of afterlife, but also people's emotionality. Astral body is currently most of people's seat of consciousness, because they're emotional creatures. But with development there are more perfect vehicles of consciousness to become dominant.

Who are emotional creatures? Us? The Soul? The Astral Body? Was Jesus an emotional creature? Is Jesus now an emotional creature? Are emotions good or bad? Are we going to lose emotions when we develop into the more perfect vehicles of consciousness"?? I like many emotions I fell... I don't want to lose them!  Loosing emotions seems like a setback! From all people in existence you say that most of them are in the Astral body state, is this correct?

I like your description of consciousness, it's elegant. But to me it's says that there's not a clear separation between consciousness, soul and spirit. They are all the same thing but in different states and conditions. The definitions I've read of Astral body points to a spiritual body that "carries" our consciousness much like our physical body does in this plane. Consciousness itself is a much more subtle thing.

Luminon wrote:
Why does the soul need experience on Earth? For many reasons. For example, the soul has some idea of high ideals that are perfection for us, but it wants to bring it to material manifestation, and that takes a lot of work. Just remember the parable of God's kingdom on Earth. This is what will happen when humanity will work under the purpose, impression and guidance of the kingdom of souls. Kingdom of souls is a natural kingdom, just like human, animal, plant and mineral. It is all right for us to domestify animals, cultivate plants and work with minerals. But we have to remember, that in similar fashion our souls are here to perfect us. For some aeons ahead, we are here to convey higher principles from higher kingdom to ours and lower. 

It seems that there are imperfections in the workings of Creation, or at least the mechanics are hard working and the path is long. Is the Creation perfect but it's perfection can't be compared to our normal ideas of perfection... or is Creation seeking the concept of perfection all the time because there is no such thing as perfection but development which turns the path to "perfection" worth enduring and fulfilling?

Let's say I want to improve myself and be more aware of my purpose on Earth. I want to put more and more Love, and peace in my life, what would be your advice?

 

  

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"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Teralek wrote: Well,

Teralek wrote:

Well, Luminon, I will not argue with you, because you may be right. Everything you've said doesn't go against that which I already know.

But I'm in a position where I'm not yet sure of the truth beyond what I know. I don't take for granted what other people tell me... I investigate, I read, I compare to what I know and I check with scientific knowledge.

Being prudent, skeptical, humble and inquisitive is generally my position. However I live perfectly ok with the unknown, I don't mind not knowing because I know the essential - Love is the way.

Damn, if I forgot to emphasize that, I DON'T try to make you agree, convert you, or something. I show you a framework which is useful for me when dealing with such questions, topics and phenomena. I'm just letting people know, in case it might be useful. But just as well you can discover something that I don't know yet.
I'd be only alerted with people who have a dangerous model of metaphysics - for example, which makes them consider things like shamanism, drugs and mediumship as good and desirable things. In my business, shamans and their henchmen are something like our arch-enemies.

Teralek wrote:

Who are emotional creatures? Us? The Soul? The Astral Body? Was Jesus an emotional creature? Is Jesus now an emotional creature? Are emotions good or bad? Are we going to lose emotions when we develop into the more perfect vehicles of consciousness"?? I like many emotions I fell... I don't want to lose them!  Loosing emotions seems like a setback! From all people in existence you say that most of them are in the Astral body state, is this correct?


That is correct, people are predominantly emotional, that is proven by countless studies. People prefer what feels good over scientific facts, plus there are whole industries based on swaying people emotionally to buy something. Emotions are a good instrument, a good one that should be used and shown outwardly in everyday life. But as everything, emotionality is a good servant, but bad master. The lesson of astral body as a component of you is, that your emotionality is not the true you. It is one of tools that you have available for life and ought to use them wisely. Emotionality, or astral world in general is today the most problematic, the most misused area ever. It was good for us when we people were still in our near-animal stage of development. But now when we must develop further into intellect and intuition, conquering our astral nature is a great problem.

As with everything, you can do it wrong in two ways. You can exaggerate it, or you can stifle it, or you can alternate between these two extremes. Currently, vast majority of people are controlled by their exaggerated emotions. They should whine less and think more. But for example, I suffer with opposite case, I know how it is like to live without any emotions at all! It's... well, it's easier to say what it isn't. It isn't real, everyday life with people around. Large part of reality, society and pleasures from it is unreachable without emotions. Many problems seem to be gone too - but that's only a self-deception. That is again a wrong example of (not) using emotions. It took years of self-improving effort just to realize that and to start working on correction so early. It's not a pretty realization about myself, but still better than many people who grow old without even noticing what's wrong with them.

I am pretty sure that Jesus and other people like him would be a great fun to hang out with. They certainly would know how to make the best of their emotions, and certainly would not be the dry, stiff and prudish saints that churches make of them.

Teralek wrote:
I like your description of consciousness, it's elegant. But to me it's says that there's not a clear separation between consciousness, soul and spirit. They are all the same thing but in different states and conditions. The definitions I've read of Astral body points to a spiritual body that "carries" our consciousness much like our physical body does in this plane. Consciousness itself is a much more subtle thing.
You are correct, there should be a clear distinction. As I understand it, spirit (monad) is a life form with specialized extension of soul, which extends itself as a person, which has again it's specialized parts.

Now, everyone forgive me, but I have to explain something that is very abstract and metaphorical, so I can only use very vague words and approximations. I need to convey a general idea of esoteric books, not what is actually written there. The world can be understood as a duality of energy and matter, "spirit" (not monad) or consciousness and matter. Energy is the potential of consciousness and matter is the aspect of form. Both originate from the same source, and when they combine together, the complexity of form, life and consciousness arises in the universe. Let's say there are various dimensions with gradual proportion of spiritual energy versus matter, from almost totally spiritual, to almost entirely material and inert, which we live in. Monad, the life form which people are, originates from the higher dimensions, stretches itself down to lower dimensions and seeks to understand and control them. In this process, matter is "spiritualized" and brought back to the original perfection of it's source. This is done since the beginning of the universe by assistance of the most basic natural forces that science knows.

For the monad the material world is incomprehensible, instead of material forms it perceives just some vibrating fields of energy. It extends itself down as a soul and eventually person with specialized physical body, to experience properly all that matter, emotion and mind can offer. All severe limitations, all lessons of life, eventually to master it all and become as proficient in material world, as it is in it's own spiritual domain. In this process, all is helped towards the source, other persons, souls and monads, and the matter of the world that they live on.
 

Teralek wrote:
It seems that there are imperfections in the workings of Creation, or at least the mechanics are hard working and the path is long. Is the Creation perfect but it's perfection can't be compared to our normal ideas of perfection... or is Creation seeking the concept of perfection all the time because there is no such thing as perfection but development which turns the path to "perfection" worth enduring and fulfilling?
I see you understand it well, except that there is an idea of the original unmanifested perfection. This idea makes a goal and a plan of getting back to the original perfection. We of course don't know the plan, or just very little of it. Greater beings than us know more of the plan. But everything strives towards something that it considers more perfect than itself. This whole cycle of expanding from the source and returning back to it can be imagined as a cosmic breath out and breath in.

Everything has an idea of something greater or something better, that keeps all life going in that general direction. Of course I left out a lot. It's only relevant for us, that our souls know more of the plan than we do. When you go with the plan, life is good. There are problems, but you can overcome them.

Teralek wrote:

Let's say I want to improve myself and be more aware of my purpose on Earth. I want to put more and more Love, and peace in my life, what would be your advice?
You see, I'm an amateur astrologer and professional astrologer's son. I can provide rather detailed advice, but for that I need your exact date of birth, complete with day, hour and minute. Also the city where you were born, or the nearest big city. Or GPS coordinates, if you were born somewhere in central australian desert.
If you don't have exact minute, then at least tell how much precise is the time you have, plus minus. I'd take a look on your data and ask upon them further through personal messages. I hope your personal messages work, you do have a badge.

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WOW! how insightful!! You

WOW! how insightful!! You can always make deep insightful comments Luminon!

You believe you can advise me better to my purpose in life by my astrological chart?! I should warn you... I'm very skeptical towards astrology... though some projections I've seen are annoyingly accurate. 
 

I may shoot questions like: Why astrology doesn't update the maps which are thousands of years old and don't account for the receding of the skies? or... How can a specific region in the sky or the planet Uranus which is at a mindbogling distance influence my life?... what if I blew up Pluto?

Are you going to charge me for this?!

ok... here it goes:

I was born in Lisbon, Portugal in 31st of December 1977 at 15:45...

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Lumi u doing readings again?

Lumi u doing readings again?


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:Lumi

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Lumi u doing readings again?

Yeah, I need practice. I still learn new things. I listen to what my dad lectures, how he interprets aspects, and so on.



Teralek wrote:

WOW! how insightful!! You can always make deep insightful comments Luminon!

You believe you can advise me better to my purpose in life by my astrological chart?! I should warn you... I'm very skeptical towards astrology... though some projections I've seen are annoyingly accurate. 
 

I may shoot questions like: Why astrology doesn't update the maps which are thousands of years old and don't account for the receding of the skies? or... How can a specific region in the sky or the planet Uranus which is at a mindbogling distance influence my life?... what if I blew up Pluto?

Well, just shoot questions, my astrologic school is a new one, very non-traditional. I don't know if my maps are updated or not, my software uses the same ephemeris that swiss astronomers use. This is a tough question which I don't really understand yet. There's a lot of confusion around tropical and siderical zodiac and historical computing the sky according to Regulus versus Aldebaran. Here I just make sure my software is set right.

But as for that specific region of the sky... Planets don't affect us by gravity so much. Yeah, proximity of a planet and it's gravity counts a little, but that's not the main astrologic influence. You know, there is a space medium around us, called aether or dark matter, or vacuum with all it's energy in it. You can imagine it like a cauldron of water. If you put a spoon in there and stir the water, circularly for a time, the water starts to rotate and creates a vortex. The longer and stronger you stir, the stronger the vortex is. It works like an impetus-wheel. The planet by countless years accumulates force around it's orbit. These vortexes of force of each planet create an energetic background of solar system, in subtle-material or spiritual dimensions if you want.
And this is what gets imprinted into a newborn child with it's first breath, from the air and space around us. Until the birth, the child is a part of the mother. We are all subjected to the same energy of constellations, but we are different in our starting conditions.

Among many other things, we are also all different by our past incarnations. We're also affected by cultural egregore of planets, because their energetic vortexes aren't that specific in influence. And we're also affected by the position of Earth, because it sorts of shields the cosmic rays. And even if these rays are not shielded, their incoming angle determines a lot. You can call it numerology if you want, but it depends if you divide a circle by a particular number, the resulting angles have different properties. If you observe two circular waves on water and how they bounce from each other, you should get the idea. Astrology observes particular angles of how the cosmic waves bounce from the planets and significant angles are displayed by the software. Certain angles of cosmic waves work well together, they stir the cosmic cauldron well in the same direction, some slow it down, some make it go faster, and some create interference. There's many more details, but I'd rather prefer if you buy the first book of my dad, it was recently published in english.

And finally, we have all these influences and the soul chooses a time and place of birth. It chooses the parents, genetics and exact astrologic influences at the time, just as easily as we can get on the bus to get us to work on time. By studying your constellations we therefore can deduce what the soul wants from you, by giving you such a lovely horoscope.
One of specialties of my astrologic school is, that the horoscope doesn't say what you are, but what you should become.
And please, don't blow up Pluto. It's already too bad they wiped it out of the list of planets! 
 

Teralek wrote:
Are you going to charge me for this?!

ok... here it goes:

I was born in Lisbon, Portugal in 31st of December 1977 at 15:45...

No, it's free Smiling I'll do it to get practice and without any guarantees. I'll only need a feedback from you, how much this or that is accurate. Because, there are more ways to interpret something, depending if you're bushman, normal citizen or master of your time. Also, I can't tell if you exaggerate something, stifle some aspect of your life, or get it right.

But your horoscope is beautiful, really outstanding. It's the first time I see something as you have. You've got a true kite formation, then bisextile formation and some more aspects on top of that. These formations are considered very harmonic, very good for you, plus you've got there some non-harmonic squares, that should protect you from laziness and squandering your life. I'm afraid it won't help you to conquer the world, you've got all this rather in emotional and relationship areas of your life. Anyway, this is gonna require additional study. And probably advice from my dad, he's got to see that. I wonder what it is like to live with such a horoscope.

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LOL  Yeah, it is not easy

LOL  Yeah, it is not easy to be me... well if you knew me you'd understand...

"emotional and relationship areas of your life"... oh boy! 

I'd better give you my email... so you can get into details, don't you agree?

Do you think this can help me to "find myself"?

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Luminon, is that your pic in

Luminon, is that your pic in your avatar? Are you in your early to mid 20s if you don't mind me asking?

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KPO89 wrote:Do you believe

KPO89 wrote:
Do you believe in the existence of your soul?

No.

KPO89 wrote:
Is there something more to you than your physical life?

Not as I understand the question.

KPO89 wrote:
Or do you believe there is nothing more to life other than what you can see or touch?

There is a lot more than what you can see or touch, even if you include the use of technology. You can't see or touch gravity, or a magnetic field, but we can still manipulate them (to a degree), and see their effects, so we know they exist. Thats a far cry from ghosts, souls, and gods.

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KPO89 wrote:I'd like to pose

KPO89 wrote:

I'd like to pose a question simply out of curiosity. Do you believe in the existence of your soul? Is there something more to you than your physical life? Or do you believe there is nothing more to life other than what you can see or touch?

Please give a brief explanation behind your thought process.

 

For the purpose of this discussion please define the soul as:

 

"part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body--the metaphysical part as distinct from the physical part"

 

1. Soul or no soul?

 

I know of no part of my ability to think that cannot be described or changed with the electrochemical reactions occurring in my brain.

My Emotions can be changed with anti-depression medication.

My memories can be erased with brain damage.

All 5 senses are related to the body.

My decision making ability can be hindered or helped by a number of physical inputs.

What is there left to be the soul?  If there is a things called a soul it is not me.

I was writing a story a while back about a future civilization after the discovery of time travel and the ability to copy or move the process of the human brain into a computer simulation.  This civilization was to the point where population had stopped since there was no longer a need since the people who exist were not going to stop existing.  One of them decided to use time travel to find people who he helpful in getting their society to where they were and thought that they deserved the opportunity to have the chance to continue their existence or to fade away into nothing.  At the time of their death he would download them to a temporary place where he would tell them of this opportunity and then move them into the computer simulation.

The story is however just a story not to mention even if put into a computer simulation the universe as we understand will some distance in the future die of heat death thus stopping the simulation along with everything else.

Sounds made up...
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JesusNEVERexisted

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:


Luminon, is that your pic in your avatar? Are you in your early to mid 20s if you don't mind me asking?
Yeah, that is my pic... I'm 22 now. I don't mind you asking, I'm just curious why.

Teralek wrote:


LOL  Yeah, it is not easy to be me... well if you knew me you'd understand...

"emotional and relationship areas of your life"... oh boy!

I'd better give you my email... so you can get into details, don't you agree?

Do you think this can help me to "find myself"?

To be honest, good astrologers rather dislike making a horoscope reading on a distance. So this is not what is the real, paid horoscope about. The real horoscope requires you to be there and comment on your areas of life. An astrologer like my dad needs to get the idea of you subconsciously, so he can use his intuition to give you a solution for your problems. After that, you either follow the advice and solve your problems, or you don't follow the advice and don't solve your problems. But nonetheless, we might get to some valuable advice for you.
You seem to be a very worthy case, so I'll do my best to get the dad to look at you. Until then, I should do what I can to find out the basics. It can not be done without your assistance.

For example, I have 7 planets in Earth signs, which is a lot. A traditional astrologer would say that I am very conventional, dependable, practical, stable, common-sense-having, physical rather than spiritual, rigid, methodical and down-to-earth. That my potential faults are lack imagination, conservatism, extreme materialism, blind adherence to rules, and so on.
Guess what. This is where traditional astrology fails. A modern astrologer has to consider, that I am a product of X past lives that made me extremely otherworldly intellectual dreamer, on top of that, involved in occult practices even further detaching me from material life. The Earth element preponderance is there to pull me back to the ground. Somehow. Sometime. Eventually. The soul decided to put me into such constellations to round me up. So I feel at home in esoteric sides of life, but don't ask me what the normal world is, I don't know yet. Without knowing me, you would probably guess the horoscope belongs to a materialist. Theoretically, someone different or older in my place would become a materialist, It's hard to tell in advance. This is why I need to know something about you.

Sure, send me your e-mail. Mine is simple, just add (a)seznam.cz behind my nickname.

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You're form the Czech

You're form the Czech Republic? Nice. A fellow european.

Guess your participation in this forum reflect that down to Earth side of yours.

I'll give you a very general idea of me by email, but fell free to ask further questions.

BTW, what I meant with the outdated astrological maps is this: on traditional astrology we have a sign calender. This calender was made thousands of years ago. So today a person who may think he is Libra may indeed be Scorpion... because the skies are not exactly in the same position they were.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Magus wrote:I know of no

Magus wrote:

I know of no part of my ability to think that cannot be described or changed with the electrochemical reactions occurring in my brain.

My Emotions can be changed with anti-depression medication.

My memories can be erased with brain damage.

All 5 senses are related to the body.

My decision making ability can be hindered or helped by a number of physical inputs.

What is there left to be the soul?  If there is a things called a soul it is not me.

I was writing a story a while back about a future civilization after the discovery of time travel and the ability to copy or move the process of the human brain into a computer simulation.  This civilization was to the point where population had stopped since there was no longer a need since the people who exist were not going to stop existing.  One of them decided to use time travel to find people who he helpful in getting their society to where they were and thought that they deserved the opportunity to have the chance to continue their existence or to fade away into nothing.  At the time of their death he would download them to a temporary place where he would tell them of this opportunity and then move them into the computer simulation.

The story is however just a story not to mention even if put into a computer simulation the universe as we understand will some distance in the future die of heat death thus stopping the simulation along with everything else.

Magus, I'm not a physicist but from what I know about science I believe that time travel to the past is impossible. Moreover I think that the transfer of a human Self to a computer is impossible too... but I could be wrong

Luminon definition of consciousness which I believe to be more or less true, (although I would not use those exact words to describe it) is not at odds with those facts you've very well pointed out. By Luminon definition of the nature of consciousness it is possible to have a brain that physically interfere with personality and still have an external consciousness.

Personally I prefer the TV set analogy. Where your body is the TV set and your consciousness is the airwaves. You can kill the TV but the airwaves are still there.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Luminon, I was just

Luminon, I was just wondering why you would put your pic on a public forum that's all. Of course there's nothing wrong with that.

Can you please give me your opinion here?

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/21203

 

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Magus
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Teralek wrote:Magus wrote:I

Teralek wrote:

Magus wrote:

I know of no part of my ability to think that cannot be described or changed with the electrochemical reactions occurring in my brain.

My Emotions can be changed with anti-depression medication.

My memories can be erased with brain damage.

All 5 senses are related to the body.

My decision making ability can be hindered or helped by a number of physical inputs.

What is there left to be the soul?  If there is a things called a soul it is not me.

I was writing a story a while back about a future civilization after the discovery of time travel and the ability to copy or move the process of the human brain into a computer simulation.  This civilization was to the point where population had stopped since there was no longer a need since the people who exist were not going to stop existing.  One of them decided to use time travel to find people who he helpful in getting their society to where they were and thought that they deserved the opportunity to have the chance to continue their existence or to fade away into nothing.  At the time of their death he would download them to a temporary place where he would tell them of this opportunity and then move them into the computer simulation.

The story is however just a story not to mention even if put into a computer simulation the universe as we understand will some distance in the future die of heat death thus stopping the simulation along with everything else.

Magus, I'm not a physicist but from what I know about science I believe that time travel to the past is impossible.

Actually there is no law of physics that prevents it thus far.

Teralek wrote:

Moreover I think that the transfer of a human Self to a computer is impossible too... but I could be wrong

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6600965.stm

Doesn't look impossible, but still not done yet.

 

Sounds made up...
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Hi,1) NoThree points: 1) In

Hi,

1) No

Three points:

 

1) In "The God Dellusion" Dawkins touches on duality (the concept of having more to us than our bodies, mind soul or whatever) as an evolutionary property of man and references further research/theory on it. Sadly I leat out my copy so cannot reference.

2) I'm quite content with this being it. I don't fear death. Again stealing a Dawkins Quote (roughly):  didn't exist for 13.7 billion years before I was born and I was fine, so why fear it after life?

 

EDIT: Sorry, this isn't a Dawkins quote, it's quoted in his book from someone else...

3) The first mention of soul in the bible (not that I assume you are Christian) in fact implies that it is not seperate from the body and in fact contradicts your chosen definition!

Genesis Chapter 2 Verse 7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Source: Bible wiki)

Note BECAME a living soul, implying that man and the breath of God became a soul, body of dust included!

 

Incidentally, the New International Version changes "soul" to "being". A cynic might argue this was to mop up the contradiction between Old Testament literature and popular Christian belief!


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ToonArmy wrote:2) I'm quite

ToonArmy wrote:

2) I'm quite content with this being it. I don't fear death. Again stealing a Dawkins Quote (roughly):  didn't exist for 13.7 billion years before I was born and I was fine, so why fear it after life?

 

That's because for the first 13.7 billion years you hadn't gotten a chance to even live yet! Now we're getting our chance but after we die it IS VERY depressing to think we'll NEVER exist in any, way, shape or form again! 

Only modern science can help us live longer.  It is definitely possible we'll see some live 130 years or longer in our lifetime but modalities that will enable us to live 200 years and beyond unfortunately are not possible in our lifetime.  At least it's extremely unlikely.

Of course even that wouldn't be nearly forever but it would be more than double what we have now!

P.S. I know you mentioned the bible but what's the point since it has no historical references and we all know it's Palestinian mythology written by Greek mythicists.

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There must be some principle

There must be some principle of self-identity through change in each person.  Otherwise, we cannot explain these facts of our experience. 

First, I remember my past events, scenes, things, etc., not just as past, but as mine, as my past experiences of tehse events, etc., which I recall as having happened to the same me that is remembering them and talking about them now.  The no-self theory cannot do justice to this common experience of myself-as-remembering-something-in-the-past. 

Second, I have moral responsibility for my past actions.  I take responsibility for a past act as my act.  Otherwise, guilt, sorrow, contrition, even forgiveness of others all become meaningless illusions to be gotten rid of.  The whole moral life, which is inseparable from my sense of personal dignity and self-possession, goes down the drain. 

Third, I have promise and pledging of fidelity for the future.  It makes no sense to promise what some other self will have to do.  But fidelity to promises is an essential part of human dignity and moral responsibility.

Fourth, I have experience of carrying through a project towards a goal, through time and a series of steps.  I am conscious that I am exerting effort over time to carry out this project.

In sum, any philosophical theory which denies or renders unintelligible any or all of the above human experiences is not an explanation of our experience but a denial or suppression of an integral part of it.

Note that any theory which denies a perduring observer throughout a series of changes is self-contradictory: if there is no single observer enduring throughout the process, it would be impossible to know that there is such a series at all, since the observer would be passing away himself every moment and there is nothing to recognize the series as a series.

Does this enduring self continue after our bodies stop functioning?  Yes.  Since our material universe is a dynamic evolutionary one, still in process of unfolding-- still an unfinished story-- we humans who inhabit this earth and are an essential part of its story are now also the cutting edge of its development, through the self-conscious intelligence, freedom, and creativity that render us able to influence significantly the whole story itself, both for good and for evil.  Thus we now find ourselves as stewards under God for this whole subrational world, most urgently for our own little planet earth.  So the created universe has become for us both a gift and a task to be responsibly fulfilled: i.e., to care for our world as created co-creators with God of a not-yet-finished universe, as well as mediating its return to God with ourselves by acknowledgement, gratitude, and love. 


Teralek
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Luminon! Where are you? Have

Luminon! Where are you? Have you recieve my email?! 


Luminon
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Teralek wrote:Luminon! Where

Teralek wrote:

Luminon! Where are you? Have you recieve my email?! 

Yes, I did, but I'm very busy this week. So is my dad. So far I've read it and read upon the formations you have. Your horoscope is in schedule of my tasks. But in the week after next week there will be some free days and I should have more time. Just be patient, free service isn't fast Smiling


 

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Luminon wrote:Teralek

Luminon wrote:

Teralek wrote:

Luminon! Where are you? Have you recieve my email?! 

Yes, I did, but I'm very busy this week. So is my dad. So far I've read it and read upon the formations you have. Your horoscope is in schedule of my tasks. But in the week after next week there will be some free days and I should have more time. Just be patient, free service isn't fast Smiling


 

 

You do horoscopes? Could please do mine for free too? There is no rush. 

What do you need from me?  I can't PM on here but we can exchange e-mails.

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Teralek
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Luminon wrote:Teralek

Luminon wrote:

Teralek wrote:

Luminon! Where are you? Have you recieve my email?! 

Yes, I did, but I'm very busy this week. So is my dad. So far I've read it and read upon the formations you have. Your horoscope is in schedule of my tasks. But in the week after next week there will be some free days and I should have more time. Just be patient, free service isn't fast Smiling

 

Sorry, take your time. I wasn't sure if you recieved my email.

Thanks.

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"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:You

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

You do horoscopes? Could please do mine for free too? There is no rush. 

What do you need from me?  I can't PM on here but we can exchange e-mails.

Well, I'm suddenly so busy, what a new feeling. I used to have tons of time. After my astrological adventure with Teralek is over without many casualties, I might consider having another participant.

You see, I'm a young amateur and anyway doing horoscopes on a distance is very tricky, don't expect miracles. Anyway, do you have any problem you'd like to help with? Looking at you, you could have an ideologic problem, oppositions of planets in 3rd house to 9th house or Gemini to Saggitarius. That's typical for local science-loving atheists who have a problem with religion. In their past lives, they were ardent religious preachers, but in this life they grew tired of it and now  their former sheep give it all back to them... And they still preach atheism and skepticism just as fervently Smiling

Eventually, I'd need from you city of birth, (or nearest big city) then day, month and precise hour and minute. People tend to have precise minute of birth surprisingly often, which makes me glad.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.