Simple Proof to show why believing in the Christian God is irrational

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Simple Proof to show why believing in the Christian God is irrational

Assume: 1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and benevolent
2. God gave us free will

Result: 1. God knows how everyone will act
2. God knows which ones will be saved and which ones wont
--> Assume: Those who wont be saved are lost cases that under no circumstances would be saved. As dubious as this claim is, let's grant it to the Theists and say that God would not let someone willing to be saved go astray, or else salvation would be as much based on the person as the circumstances of their lives
3. The removal of people who wont be saved wont interfere in any way with the free will or salvation of those who will, or vice-versa
4. God could have created a world without people who wont be saved
Additional Steps 5. God, knowing the result of Earth's test, could have avoided creating this world and put everyone in Heaven
6. This world is unnecessary, redundant, and, given how many people wont be saved, perplexing with the proposition of an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and benevolent God.

"The Chaplain had mastered, in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization and he was exhilarated by his discovery. It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. Just no Character."

"He...had gone down in flames...on the seventh day, while God was resting"

"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You should be taken outside and shot!"


freeminer
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 did it not occur to you

 

did it not occur to you that every Christian considering Calvinism/Arminianism considers this argument? The problem is step 3. God did not create a virtual world. Free will is not theoretical. The fact that God knows who will be saved does not impinge in the least on the free-will of those who will not. Why create a world in which the notion of free-will is merely academic? A case of "justice must be seen to be done". Presumably, were you extant in this scenario, you wouldn't be complaining that God only created people who were "for" him!  

 

btw, how is this supposed to render Christianity "irrational"? 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


D33PPURPLE
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freeminer wrote: did it not

freeminer wrote:

 did it not occur to you that every Christian considering Calvinism/Arminianism considers this argument?

Irrelevant to the problem itself. Also, if Calvinists and Arminianists consider this argument, then it means that it is an objection worthy of consideration and study.

 

freeminer wrote:

The problem is step 3. God did not create a virtual world. Free will is not theoretical.

The existence of Free Will is hardly an open-and-shut case, but we are assuming that Free Will exists and God granted it to people. #3 is not problematic to Free Will at all. My free will should not depend on whether or not evil people exist, only on whether or not I have a choice over my OWN actions. Do you even understand what free will is?

freeminer wrote:

The fact that God knows who will be saved does not impinge in the least on the free-will of those who will not.

And I never said it did.

freeminer wrote:

Why create a world in which the notion of free-will is merely academic?

...What on earth are you talking about?

 

freeminer wrote:
A case of "justice must be seen to be done". Presumably, were you extant in this scenario, you wouldn't be complaining that God only created people who were "for" him! 

How is any of this pertinent to my problem?

 

freeminer wrote:

btw, how is this supposed to render Christianity "irrational"? 

 

-sigh- It's showing how God could have created a world with Free Will, evil, and where everyone is saved. If God wants everyone to be saved, and we assume Evil and Free Will are necessary to achieve the greatest good (which I challenge with my Morality Dilemma), this world should not exist.

 

"The Chaplain had mastered, in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization and he was exhilarated by his discovery. It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. Just no Character."

"He...had gone down in flames...on the seventh day, while God was resting"

"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You should be taken outside and shot!"


robj101
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My favorite argument along

My favorite argument along these lines would be to show a christian how they themselves make excuses.

For example, did everyone before christianity go to a hell? A typical christian response might be that they are in some kind of limbo, or went to heaven by default.

Did everyone who had never heard of Jesus after the fact go to a hell? Typical responses might be again they are in some kind of limbo or they went to heaven by default or Jesus actually did visit them and spread the word we just haven't heard about it and the bible forgot to mention it though this seems carpy.

In both of these scenarios hell is not really an option, if they did not know Jesus then how could they have known to stay away from a path leading to hell? That would not be fair. Jesus is so loving and wonderful that he would not have sent these people to hell right?

Does it say any of this in the bible or did someone just make it up? ..not that the bible is not made up lol.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Quote:Irrelevant to the

Quote:

Irrelevant to the problem itself. Also, if Calvinists and Arminianists consider this argument, then it means that it is an objection worthy of consideration and study.

yes, of course it isn't a stupid point but whatever conclusion one came to, I don't see how it impinges on the existence or otherwise, of God.  

 

Quote:

The problem is step 3. God did not create a virtual world. Free will is not theoretical.

Quote:
The existence of Free Will is hardly an open-and-shut case, but we are assuming that Free Will exists and God granted it to people. #3 is not problematic to Free Will at all. My free will should not depend on whether or not evil people exist, only on whether or not I have a choice over my OWN actions. Do you even understand what free will is?
I understand where you're coming from because, as a materialist, but you have no choice but to opt for determinism. I don't quite see how you can even contemplate free will  from your position. It has to be an illusion.

You are also conflating those who don't opt for salvation with "evil people"! This is an whole other debate. Until you prove otherwise I will give you the benefit of the doubt! Regarding what I regard as "free will", I'm happy to go with your implied definition.

I didn't say it was problematic to free-will. It doesn't affect any rationale for God's existence however.

Quote:

The fact that God knows who will be saved does not impinge in the least on the free-will of those who will not.

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And I never said it did.

good......... that doesn't render the point redundant.

Quote:

Why create a world in which the notion of free-will is merely academic?

...What on earth are you talking about?

 -sigh- everyone would freely "choose God" but have no choice but to choose God - how would anyone prove that free-will existed? 

Quote:
A case of "justice must be seen to be done". Presumably, were you extant in this scenario, you wouldn't be complaining that God only created people who were "for" him! 

Quote:
How is any of this pertinent to my problem?

see above.

 

 

Quote:
-sigh- It's showing how God could have created a world with Free Will, evil, and where everyone is saved. If God wants everyone to be saved, and we assume Evil and Free Will are necessary to achieve the greatest good (which I challenge with my Morality Dilemma), this world should not exist.

here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything. Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born. Is God going to determine everything in this "free-will" world of yours?!

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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freeminer wrote:here's a

freeminer wrote:

here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything. Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born.

The Bible doesn't come out and say it, no. But it is replete with examples of God needing evil to make his plans work.

Examples:

1. The serpent in the Garden of Eden.

2. Job.

3. Judas Iscariot

4. Any opportunities for Jesus and or his disciples to cast out demons.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Quote:My favorite argument

Quote:

My favorite argument along these lines would be to show a christian how they themselves make excuses.

For example, did everyone before christianity go to a hell? A typical christian response might be that they are in some kind of limbo, or went to heaven by default.

you've been listening to too many Catholics!

 

Quote:
Did everyone who had never heard of Jesus after the fact go to a hell? Typical responses might be again they are in some kind of limbo or they went to heaven by default or Jesus actually did visit them and spread the word we just haven't heard about it and the bible forgot to mention it though this seems carpy.

you're into carps in a big way!

In both of these scenarios hell is not really an option, if they did not know Jesus then how could they have known to stay away from a path leading to hell?

Faith in God has always been accounted as righteousness.

Romans 4:3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Romans 4:2-4 (in Context)

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


freeminer
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Quote:here's a crash course

Quote:

here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything. Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born.

Quote:
The Bible doesn't come out and say it, no. But it is replete with examples of God needing evil to make his plans work.

Examples:

1. The serpent in the Garden of Eden.

2. Job.

3. Judas Iscariot

4. Any opportunities for Jesus and or his disciples to cast out demons.

  ok, these examples only tell us that God deals with the situation confronting him ie he uses the evil of others and turns it to ultimate good and that is true of his "macro-plan".

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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freeminer wrote:Quote:here's

freeminer wrote:

Quote:

here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything. Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born.

Quote:
The Bible doesn't come out and say it, no. But it is replete with examples of God needing evil to make his plans work.

Examples:

1. The serpent in the Garden of Eden.

2. Job.

3. Judas Iscariot

4. Any opportunities for Jesus and or his disciples to cast out demons.

  ok, these examples only tell us that God deals with the situation confronting him ie he uses the evil of others and turns it to ultimate good and that is true of his "macro-plan".

Except that the "situations confronting him" were of his own making.

Would Adam and Eve eaten of the fruit if God hadn't planted the serpent there to help them along?

Would Satan have bothered Job if God hadn't been such a braggart and made the bey?

Would Jesus have died by crucifixion without a betrayer?

Would the demon need casting out if it wasn't there (sent by God or at God's command)?

God needed evil so much he created his own Adversary.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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freeminer wrote:yes, of

freeminer wrote:

yes, of course it isn't a stupid point but whatever conclusion one came to, I don't see how it impinges on the existence or otherwise, of God. 

I never said it impinges on the existence of a God, it impinges upon the existence of a God along the lines of which Christians believe. That's why at the beginning I specified which assumptions we were making. I made very sure that we were clear what type of God we were discussing, and then went on to prove that the assumptions most Christians make and what we have in this world are incompatible. Sure, it doesn't disprove all conceptions of God, but it does question the validity of a God with certain characteristics.

 

freeminer wrote:

I understand where you're coming from because, as a materialist, but you have no choice but to opt for determinism. I don't quite see how you can even contemplate free will  from your position. It has to be an illusion.

Without digressing too much, things like Compatibilism do exist, and I have not stated any metaphysical point of view that I hold. The reason is that whatever views I personally hold, for the purpose of this proof, we are assuming that God exists and that he gave everyone free will. That's the reason I put those two assumptions in the beginning, to avoid all of this confusion.

freeminer wrote:

You are also conflating those who don't opt for salvation with "evil people"! This is an whole other debate. Until you prove otherwise I will give you the benefit of the doubt! Regarding what I regard as "free will", I'm happy to go with your implied definition.

I'm basing the idea that those who aren't saved are evil because that is what the Bible says, and the thread title is very explicit about what religion I'm addressing. The Bible holds that it is Jesus that purifies us from our sins (evil) and that those who have no salvation cannot be with God because they are impure (evil). I doubt many Christians, if any, hold the view that those who are sent to hell are good people.

 

freeminer wrote:
I didn't say it was problematic to free-will. It doesn't affect any rationale for God's existence however.

Yes, in and out of itself, Step #3 doesn't affect many conceptions of God (unless the Theists posits that God has no power to interfere with human affairs, but that is hardly the Christian POV), but taken as a whole, all of the steps I propose prove that if a benevolent God were to exist, he would be quite capable of creating only those who will be saved, without interfering with free will, the existence of evil, etc. The problem attacks a specific kind of God.

 

freeminer wrote:

good......... that doesn't render the point redundant.

You're going to have to be much clearer. I see no redundancy in my proof. I think you're greatly misunderstanding the problem. I suggest re-reading it from an objective point of view.

freeminer wrote:

 -sigh- everyone would freely "choose God" but have no choice but to choose God - how would anyone prove that free-will existed?

That's not quite true. The reason this works is the same reason why God can have omniscience and be compatible with free will (or, if they are inherently incompatible, then the Christian conception of God is compromised from the get-go) is because God knows how each person will act but not interfere with their choices. Given this, even though God already knows how we will act, he never interferes with Free Will. It's not that you don't have any other choice, it's just that God knows where your thought-processes will take you. Finally, it's not that nobody would have no choice but to to choose God, it is that everyone would find God and, out of their own free will, accept him. This doesn't violate free will, or, if it does, then it is what already happens in this world and it means that in our world, Free will does not exist.

 

 

 

freeminer wrote:
here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything.

Actually, you're a bit wrong in your terminology. It wouldn't be a crash course in Theology, but Biblical studies. Theologians absolutely depend on the idea that evil is necessary for the greater good to answer the Problem of Evil. There's a reason why Alvin Plantinga went through great lengths to reconcile evil with an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent God. Furthermore, if the Bible doesn't suggest that evil is necessary for anything, why would God allow it? Either the Bible is wrong when it says that God is good, or some explanation and use must be made of evil. That's why this argument exists in the first place.

 

freeminer wrote:

Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born. Is God going to determine everything in this "free-will" world of yours?!

 

If we assume that God is the creator of man, he already determined what attributes he would have, and what limitations man's knowledge would have, has he not? I don't think you've given the idea of Free Will, Evil and a benevolent Creator much thought, much less be familiar with the current state of Theology, as most of your objections are far behind the times.

 

"The Chaplain had mastered, in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization and he was exhilarated by his discovery. It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. Just no Character."

"He...had gone down in flames...on the seventh day, while God was resting"

"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You should be taken outside and shot!"


robj101
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freeminer wrote: you're

freeminer wrote:

 

you're into carps in a big way!

 

 

In this part of the country a carp is a trash fish, you throw them back.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:freeminer

robj101 wrote:

freeminer wrote:

 

you're into carps in a big way!

 

 

In this part of the country a carp is a trash fish, you throw them back.

Or you kill them to keep them from attacking the good fish.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


freeminer
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 Quote:Except that the

 

Quote:
Except that the "situations confronting him" were of his own making.

Would Adam and Eve eaten of the fruit if God hadn't planted the serpent there to help them along?

1] God didn't "plant" him

2] Did they or did they not have a choice? Do you think a man should be deprived of ALL choice or just the moral ones?

Quote:
Would Satan have bothered Job if God hadn't been such a braggart and made the bey?

One of Satan's primary tactics is concealment; generally, if you aren't a factor in spiritual conflict, he won't bother you. Job was. If you read Job 1 carefully you will see that while God praised Job before Satan, it was Satan who challenged God. Satan's problem was that normally he couldn't touch Job because Job habitually stood on righteous ground and gave him no opening. God's "problem" was that Job was tested by temptation but never by adverse circumstance. So the straight answer to your question is, no, if God had not given Satan an entre, perhaps he would never have had one. The reasons why he did so are a whole other discussion.             

Quote:
Would Jesus have died by crucifixion without a betrayer?

you don't seem to have come to terms with the reality of 'freewill'.......so perhaps you haven't come to terms with your  own. You perceive the spiritual warfare of which scripture speaks as a "put-up job". Judas succumbed to real temptation and had a real choice.

Quote:
Would the demon need casting out if it wasn't there (sent by God or at God's command)?

this is another misunderstanding. The realm of Earth was handed over to Satan by Man at the Fall. Satan is in rebellion. God does not order the location of every demon and he certainly doesn't order them to possess people. People have to provide an opening to possession.

Quote:
God needed evil so much he created his own Adversary.

ok, I'm genuinely interested in why you think God "needed" evil. Also, Satan wasn't an adversary when God created him. It tells us that angels have freewill too. God knew that Satan would rebel of course so shouldn't the question be, "why was he created?" 

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


freeminer
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Quote:yes, of course it

Quote:

yes, of course it isn't a stupid point but whatever conclusion one came to, I don't see how it impinges on the existence or otherwise, of God. 

Quote:
I never said it impinges on the existence of a God, it impinges upon the existence of a God along the lines of which Christians believe. That's why at the beginning I specified which assumptions we were making. I made very sure that we were clear what type of God we were discussing, and then went on to prove that the assumptions most Christians make and what we have in this world are incompatible. Sure, it doesn't disprove all conceptions of God, but it does question the validity of a God with certain characteristics.

 

but not with the characteristics of the God of the Bible. Obviously you are free to put up a discussion of any god. Just to remind ourselves.........this is the issue:

"The fact that God knows who will be saved does not impinge in the least on the free-will of those who will not." 

The Bible makes it clear that God loves, "the [whole] world" , those who choose  him and those who don't. He does not choose who will be born nor make their choice for them. This being the case, it doesn't impinge on either his existence or his character. Knowing who will be saved and acting on that knowledge by intervening to prevent the birth of those who will choose not to be, will certainly impinge on the exercise of their future free choice! 

 

 

Quote:
The reason is that whatever views I personally hold, for the purpose of this proof, we are assuming that God exists and that he gave everyone free will. That's the reason I put those two assumptions in the beginning, to avoid all of this confusion.

ok.......proceed!

Quote:

You are also conflating those who don't opt for salvation with "evil people"! This is an whole other debate. Until you prove otherwise I will give you the benefit of the doubt! Regarding what I regard as "free will", I'm happy to go with your implied definition.

Quote:
I'm basing the idea that those who aren't saved are evil because that is what the Bible says, and the thread title is very explicit about what religion I'm addressing. The Bible holds that it is Jesus that purifies us from our sins (evil) and that those who have no salvation cannot be with God because they are impure (evil). I doubt many Christians, if any, hold the view that those who are sent to hell are good people.

ok, yes, I think it was necessary to establish the point. Yes, in Biblical terms men are "evil" because they have a fallen nature and Jesus said, "there is none good but God"...........excuse me but not every atheist argues with clarity vis a vis scripture!

 

Quote:
I didn't say it was problematic to free-will. It doesn't affect any rationale for God's existence however.

Quote:
Yes, in and out of itself, Step #3 doesn't affect many conceptions of God (unless the Theists posits that God has no power to interfere with human affairs, but that is hardly the Christian POV), but taken as a whole, all of the steps I propose prove that if a benevolent God were to exist, he would be quite capable of creating only those who will be saved, without interfering with free will, the existence of evil, etc. The problem attacks a specific kind of God.

 

yes, the problem with your thesis is that no human being would actually be aware that they had freewill, because they would have no reference point. How would anyone know they had freewill in the matter? That's why freewill would be theoretical only. Instead, what the Bible says God did, was to create Man without knowledge of good and evil. Where there is no such knowledge, the sin of the Fall was only sin because it was a breach of Law, not on 'moral' grounds. Thus the Law was incidental. The issue was breach of faith........which is why salvation is by faith today.  

 

Quote:
You're going to have to be much clearer. I see no redundancy in my proof. I think you're greatly misunderstanding the problem. I suggest re-reading it from an objective point of view.

no, I meant my point was not rendered redundant.

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 everyone would freely "choose God" but have no choice but to choose God - how would anyone prove that free-will existed?

Quote:
That's not quite true.

well, it is true 'in practice'...... and what is the point of free-will if it is never practiced?! But also, see above point and the fundamental fact that God does not choose who is born.  

Quote:
The reason this works is the same reason why God can have omniscience and be compatible with free will (or, if they are inherently incompatible, then the Christian conception of God is compromised from the get-go) is because God knows how each person will act but not interfere with their choices.

yes, of course I have no objection to this but by now you'll be aware that it isn't the basis of my argument.

 

Quote:
Given this, even though God already knows how we will act, he never interferes with Free Will.

but in your scenario he has!!!!........he has intruded on Man's freewill regarding both the world-view of their offspring and that of the offspring by precluding anyone not in his favour from being born! Atheists should be outraged!!!!!  

Quote:
It's not that you don't have any other choice, it's just that God knows where your thought-processes will take you. Finally, it's not that nobody would have no choice but to to choose God, it is that everyone would find God and, out of their own free will, accept him. This doesn't violate free will, or, if it does, then it is what already happens in this world and it means that in our world, Free will does not exist.
Well you make my point for me........the reason we know freewill exists is that we see it in operation. RRS proves it. As it is atheists are for ever trying the 'indoctrination' argument.

 

Quote:
here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything.

Quote:
Actually, you're a bit wrong in your terminology. It wouldn't be a crash course in Theology, but Biblical studies.

hmm......I think I would argue that the nature of God is in question!

Quote:
Theologians absolutely depend on the idea that evil is necessary for the greater good to answer the Problem of Evil.

 it depends on what any given theologian means by "necessary". It isn't necessary in terms of strict logic. I think the situation is better elucidated by the term "inevitable" given circumstances where love and thus freewill are to exist outside the Godhead. This is the only sense in which God creates evil.......ie by his own existence.

Quote:
There's a reason why Alvin Plantinga went through great lengths to reconcile evil with an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent God.

hmm........I have this suspicion that there was probably no need for much of it........it ain't that difficult. Interesting guy our Alvin but I'm getting the impression he engages in some pointless exercises. I saw one of them given a sound thrashing by an atheist whose view I found irrefutable. 

Quote:
Furthermore, if the Bible doesn't suggest that evil is necessary for anything, why would God allow it? Either the Bible is wrong when it says that God is good, or some explanation and use must be made of evil. That's why this argument exists in the first place.

ok.......God "allows" evil because he "allows" freewill. He allows freewill because without it love cannot exist. Try to make someone love you. Love and freewill are inseparable and both only exist in their exercise. That is at the core of the divine plan..... ...to develop a people who have chosen to love God.......not just in an emotional sense but as a personal act of will. Is evil therefore necessary in order to establish choice? See above. Before the Fall, God created Adam's choice and [probably for a very short time] he exercised it in favour of his relationship with God. So my answer is that choice is necessary but given God's nature, evil was probably inevitable..........and that is my beef with your thesis, that real practised choice has to exist in order for real practised love to exist.......and without the real choice to love.....we are automatons. 

 

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Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born. Is God going to determine everything in this "free-will" world of yours?!

 

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If we assume that God is the creator of man, he already determined what attributes he would have, and what limitations man's knowledge would have, has he not? I don't think you've given the idea of Free Will, Evil and a benevolent Creator much thought,

this seems uncharacteristically vague of you. You see, if I infer that you believe you have given it sufficient thought, my question holds good. You should be able to tell me why, by extension of your own principle, God should not predestine birth so as to limit the practice of freewill to those who would only ever choose to do good! It seems not unreasonable to probe down to the depths of what this world of yours looks like. Yes, God set himself a design brief. What he didn't do was then rig the ballot to predetermine the outcome by eliminating opposition! As it is, Satan has been overwhelmingly successful. I see no reason why any of the characteristics you list should be incompatible. Feel free to elucidate.

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much less be familiar with the current state of Theology, as most of your objections are far behind the times.

yes, they are behind the times because I'm not susceptible to the dialectical ramblings of liberals! If they can con people into buying their interminable waffling tomes .........so be it! What carries weight with me is rational argument.

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


jcgadfly
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freeminer

freeminer wrote:

 

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Except that the "situations confronting him" were of his own making.

Would Adam and Eve eaten of the fruit if God hadn't planted the serpent there to help them along?

1] God didn't "plant" him

2] Did they or did they not have a choice? Do you think a man should be deprived of ALL choice or just the moral ones?

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Would Satan have bothered Job if God hadn't been such a braggart and made the bey?

One of Satan's primary tactics is concealment; generally, if you aren't a factor in spiritual conflict, he won't bother you. Job was. If you read Job 1 carefully you will see that while God praised Job before Satan, it was Satan who challenged God. Satan's problem was that normally he couldn't touch Job because Job habitually stood on righteous ground and gave him no opening. God's "problem" was that Job was tested by temptation but never by adverse circumstance. So the straight answer to your question is, no, if God had not given Satan an entre, perhaps he would never have had one. The reasons why he did so are a whole other discussion.             

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Would Jesus have died by crucifixion without a betrayer?

you don't seem to have come to terms with the reality of 'freewill'.......so perhaps you haven't come to terms with your  own. You perceive the spiritual warfare of which scripture speaks as a "put-up job". Judas succumbed to real temptation and had a real choice.

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Would the demon need casting out if it wasn't there (sent by God or at God's command)?

this is another misunderstanding. The realm of Earth was handed over to Satan by Man at the Fall. Satan is in rebellion. God does not order the location of every demon and he certainly doesn't order them to possess people. People have to provide an opening to possession.

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God needed evil so much he created his own Adversary.

ok, I'm genuinely interested in why you think God "needed" evil. Also, Satan wasn't an adversary when God created him. It tells us that angels have freewill too. God knew that Satan would rebel of course so shouldn't the question be, "why was he created?" 

 

1a. So he came on his own with God's permission to work God's purpose - a distinction without a difference.

1b. Are you saying that Adam and Eve knew the difference between good and evil before they ate of the tree? If one doesn't know the ramifications of one's choice is there free will?

2. Job was brought up because God bragged on him. Satan proposed a bet which offended God's ego. God, in an effort to save face, took the bet. No concealment at all (could Satan really conceal something from God?)

3. The main tenets of Christianity are Jesus' death and resurrection. If God hadn't set up the temptation (Satan again acting under God's orders) - no betrayal, no death, no resurrection, no God myth for Paul to build from.

4. So man and Satan are more powerful than God that they could wrest control of the planet from him? Or was it god needing to break a working system to implement his backup plan?

5. Why was Satan created? God needed him for his plans. He knew what his plans required and made them happen.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


freeminer
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 Quote:Except that the

 

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Except that the "situations confronting him" were of his own making.

yes, that's right - he could have chosen to create robots or he could have decided not to create at all. Speaking personally, would you have preferred the former or not to have lived at all? I suspect you're intelligent enough to have worked this out for yourself.

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Would Jesus have died by crucifixion without a betrayer?

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1a. So he came on his own with God's permission to work God's purpose - a distinction without a difference.

there is a difference between God's plan and God's permissive will. If this weren't so, you wouldn't be here because you exist by his permissive will. So yes, God permitted him to come. We should be very, very grateful for this because as a result, Satan originated sin, not us........therefore salvation is open to us, not him. 

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1b. Are you saying that Adam and Eve knew the difference between good and evil before they ate of the tree?

no, the Bible says the  opposite. 

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If one doesn't know the ramifications of one's choice is there free will?

do you see a reason why not? They were told the ramifications.

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2. Job was brought up because God bragged on him. Satan proposed a bet which offended God's ego. God, in an effort to save face, took the bet.

it's fascinating to see your anthropomorphising of God!!!!... ....but what is your point? 

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No concealment at all (could Satan really conceal something from God?)

no, he conceals himself from humanity.

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3. The main tenets of Christianity are Jesus' death and resurrection. If God hadn't set up the temptation (Satan again acting under God's orders) - no betrayal, no death, no resurrection, no God myth for Paul to build from.

it's really interesting to see how Satan tries to pull every possible lever.........this 'Paul' thing among atheists!!!!! Paul's ministry is attested to in Acts and the epistles, by the eyewitnesses to the events of Jesus' ministry. Furthermore, the tactic presupposes that the scriptures are not inspired  by the Holy Spirit, so it really is only another very thinly veiled attempt to cast doubt on the historicity of scripture. What we don't see is atheists expounding on where Paul's ministry departs from the Gospel Jesus taught.......odd that! Re God "setting things up".........where do you read this? Why did God need to? Your thesis is based on the notion that you would never have sinned..........but you have, haven't you?

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4. So man and Satan are more powerful than God that they could wrest control of the planet from him?

 God gave authority over the Earth to Man. By the Fall, Man gave it to Satan. When Satan said to Christ, "all this belongs to me", Christ didn't contradict him.

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Or was it god needing to break a working system to implement his backup plan?

only someone inhabiting his own bubble could suggest that this is a "working system" ...........within my lifetime we've come within hours of nuclear holocaust and seen a century torn apart by wars....... you have little grasp of reality.

 

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5. Why was Satan created? God needed him for his plans. He knew what his plans required and made them happen.

if you know all tha answers why ask the question?..........be thankful you weren't around to be the first to conceive sin........at least you have the opportunity of salvation.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


jcgadfly
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freeminer

freeminer wrote:

 

Quote:
Except that the "situations confronting him" were of his own making.

yes, that's right - he could have chosen to create robots or he could have decided not to create at all. Speaking personally, would you have preferred the former or not to have lived at all? I suspect you're intelligent enough to have worked this out for yourself.

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Would Jesus have died by crucifixion without a betrayer?

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1a. So he came on his own with God's permission to work God's purpose - a distinction without a difference.

there is a difference between God's plan and God's permissive will. If this weren't so, you wouldn't be here because you exist by his permissive will. So yes, God permitted him to come. We should be very, very grateful for this because as a result, Satan originated sin, not us........therefore salvation is open to us, not him. 

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1b. Are you saying that Adam and Eve knew the difference between good and evil before they ate of the tree?

no, the Bible says the  opposite. 

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If one doesn't know the ramifications of one's choice is there free will?

do you see a reason why not? They were told the ramifications.

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2. Job was brought up because God bragged on him. Satan proposed a bet which offended God's ego. God, in an effort to save face, took the bet.

it's fascinating to see your anthropomorphising of God!!!!... ....but what is your point? 

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No concealment at all (could Satan really conceal something from God?)

no, he conceals himself from humanity.

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3. The main tenets of Christianity are Jesus' death and resurrection. If God hadn't set up the temptation (Satan again acting under God's orders) - no betrayal, no death, no resurrection, no God myth for Paul to build from.

it's really interesting to see how Satan tries to pull every possible lever.........this 'Paul' thing among atheists!!!!! Paul's ministry is attested to in Acts and the epistles, by the eyewitnesses to the events of Jesus' ministry. Furthermore, the tactic presupposes that the scriptures are not inspired  by the Holy Spirit, so it really is only another very thinly veiled attempt to cast doubt on the historicity of scripture. What we don't see is atheists expounding on where Paul's ministry departs from the Gospel Jesus taught.......odd that! Re God "setting things up".........where do you read this? Why did God need to? Your thesis is based on the notion that you would never have sinned..........but you have, haven't you?

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4. So man and Satan are more powerful than God that they could wrest control of the planet from him?

 God gave authority over the Earth to Man. By the Fall, Man gave it to Satan. When Satan said to Christ, "all this belongs to me", Christ didn't contradict him.

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Or was it god needing to break a working system to implement his backup plan?

only someone inhabiting his own bubble could suggest that this is a "working system" ...........within my lifetime we've come within hours of nuclear holocaust and seen a century torn apart by wars....... you have little grasp of reality.

 

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5. Why was Satan created? God needed him for his plans. He knew what his plans required and made them happen.

if you know all tha answers why ask the question?..........be thankful you weren't around to be the first to conceive sin........at least you have the opportunity of salvation.

Ah, thanks for the false dichotomy. God could have created a world with free will and without evil as well. Did you forget that little option or are you acknowledging that God needed to create evil (as Isaiah said)?

It's likely Jesus (assuming he existed) wouldn't have died at all. The Pharisees didn't really care that much about the Jesus movement as they were observant Jews. The heresy came from Paul.

Now to the numbered stuff.

1a. God originated evil and sin. As an angel, Satan has no creative power. Are you sure you want to place Satan equal to God?

1b. Thanks for admitting the Biblical position on Adam and Eve's lack of free will. They were told the ramifications but they were meaningless. At the time they did not know what death was.

2. I anthropomorphize God as the Bible does. I keep thinking it makes it easier for you to understand. The point is God set Job up because his ego was hurt. I noticed you skipped that part.

3. So, since the thing you blame the evil on is "concealed from humanity", you believe the evil you do is also concealed. Nice try but it doesn't work that way.

4. So you are saying that man is more powerful than God. Makes sense as man created him. Why aren't you worshiping the creator instead of the creation?

5. I answered the question you asked. Yes, you are fortunate. As sin is a man-made construct (like God). If I had been God, there would simply be "good actions" and "bad actions". There would be no need to ask my forgiveness or another guy to blame when you screw up. I wouldn't need to treat you as my children - all of you could grow up.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


freeminer
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 Quote:Except that the

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Ah, thanks for the false dichotomy.

the phrase sounds good but you can't show one,

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God could have created a world with free will and without evil as well.

as has been pointed out to you, the concept of freewill would be meaningless because there would be nothing to define it by.........I'm aware the point is a bit subtle for you........... You are choosing to ignore the simple fact that God doesn't choose who is born. I know this is most inconvenient to your thesis.  

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Did you forget that little option

on that contrary I thought that was the whole point of your bright idea!

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or are you acknowledging that God needed to create evil (as Isaiah said)?

if God "needed" anything, he would not be God.

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It's likely Jesus (assuming he existed) wouldn't have died at all. The Pharisees didn't really care that much about the Jesus movement as they were observant Jews.

you clearly need to read the accounts more carefully before commenting.

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The heresy came from Paul.

references not bland assertions please.

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Now to the numbered stuff.

1a. God originated evil and sin.

I know that what it actually says is an academic point to you but the Bible tells us differently.

 

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As an angel, Satan has no creative power. Are you sure you want to place Satan equal to God?

the fact that you attempt to re-classify sin as a 'creative act' probably tells us something about your psyche!! The Bible classifies it as destructive and Satan is rather good at that.

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1b. Thanks for admitting the Biblical position on Adam and Eve's lack of free will.

you appear to be inhabiting a parallel universe. God gave them two alternatives. They chose one. No-one forced them. To most in this world this would indicate the exercise of free-will.

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They were told the ramifications but they were meaningless. At the time they did not know what death was.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt by suggesting that you know what death means even though you haven't experienced it.

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2. I anthropomorphize God as the Bible does. I keep thinking it makes it easier for you to understand. The point is God set Job up because his ego was hurt. I noticed you skipped that part.

I could read all sorts of emotionally driven motivations into your assertions........that wouldn't make them true! Predictably your understanding of the philosophical implications of Job leaves something to be desired.   This was simply one of the more amusing results.

 

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3. So, since the thing you blame the evil on is "concealed from humanity", you believe the evil you do is also concealed. Nice try but it doesn't work that way.

I can't imagine why you think this. The Holy Spirit is totally dedicated to revealing my sin to me........did you realise it "worked" this way?

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4. So you are saying that man is more powerful than God. Makes sense as man created him. Why aren't you worshiping the creator instead of the creation?

I said this:

"God gave authority over the Earth to Man. By the Fall, Man gave it to Satan. When Satan said to Christ, "all this belongs to me", Christ didn't contradict him."

your above assertion does not logically follow.

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5. I answered the question you asked. Yes, you are fortunate. As sin is a man-made construct (like God).

however this is only an unevidenced assertion. It does nothing to advance your case. Which man "constructed" the sin of adultery?!

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If I had been God, there would simply be "good actions" and "bad actions".

there are......God is terribly absolute! 

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There would be no need to ask my forgiveness or another guy to blame when you screw up.

thus neither rape, theft, paedophilia nor murder require forgiveness.........nice planet you have there!

 

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I wouldn't need to treat you as my children - all of you could grow up.

we can..........the process begins with recognition of the nature of sin. 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.