Easter Myth Week

pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Easter Myth Week

Today is the opening day of Easter Myth Week, a poor replacement for the annual fertility festivals dating to pagan times. Instead of celebrating the return of spring and life to the earth as in Canaanite and Greek myths with festivals and partying it is instead a celebration commemorating the god Yahweh accepting a sacrifice of part of himself so he can forgive man for his transgressions against him at the dawn of time. Though just how an immortal god can kill part of himself is the question.  Needless to say this entire story is filled with contradictions and problems. It would be really helpful if the story of Easter week was concise and the accounts at least agreed, but alas no, none of the Gospels do any such thing.


Each day this week a new post will open a subject of the myths and problems of the Jesus suicide self sacrifice to himself story.

 

Palm Sunday - The entrance to Jerusalem - just which account are we supposed to accept?


Monday - The fig tree curse  & the Temple Insurrection


Tuesday - The fig tree dies Jesus refuses to disclose what authority he represents & other Temple stories


Wednesday - The plot thickens - the plotting of the priests


Thursday - Passover meal accounts, Gethsemane tall tales, overnight questioning and grilling by the priests


Friday - Jesus taken to Pilate, (and Herod? or not?) tall tales of the crucifixion


Saturday - burial, guarded tomb


Sunday - Multiple tall tales of the resurrection events

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Palm Sunday Tales

Mark:

One version has Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey colt that 2 of his disciples steal in a nearby village. When they stole it some men questioned their theft and they gave the explanation they were programmed to say, the Lord hath need of it. As Jesus rode into Jerusalem many spread their garments on the ground and laid branches on the ground in front of him and sang Hosanna to him Jesus progressed into the city and went to the Temple and at evening went to Bethany. Mark 11


Or as in Matthew:


Jesus sent 2 disciples to steal an ass and a colt from a nearby village so he could fulfill the prophet's saying the King cometh upon an ass and a colt. Personally, I think he just had too much luggage to fit only on the colt or his own ass was too big to sit upon only one as he was supposedly a winebibber and perhaps quite large. In this version Jesus goes to the Temple and commits the crime of insurrection by overturning the money changers tables. Matthew 21.


Or as in Luke:


They steal the ass from the nearby village but it has never had a man sit upon it. The rest is similar but has added Pharisees telling Jesus to rebuke his disciples. He tells them if he had them be quiet the stones would cry out. As he enters the city he weeps over it as in other Gospels prior to entering the city. He then commits his crime of insurrection and even daily teaches in the Temple thereafter. From Sci-Fi master Luke 19.


Or John:


Jesus finds his own ass and sits upon it. As in others people spread out palm tree branches. This version has a voice from heaven booming out saying "I have both glorified it and will glorify it again." Jesus delivers much detail in a mini-sermon. John 12:12-50

Four versions, all different in many ways pick your choice.


The time honored tradition of spreading garments, green twigs and leaves in front of a king or  conquering hero is mentioned. This dates to even the ancient Sumerians and was practiced in Roman times.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13759
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
I am so looking forwards to

I am so looking forwards to work on Sunday. Thanks to these zombie god fans I'll end my work day feeling like I was anally raped, I'll be curled up in the fetal position crying for my mommy. I am not looking forward to it.

Some dipshit manages to make up and market a story about a magic man surviving rigor mortis, and I have to suffer because of the credulity of such nonsense.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


robj101
atheist
robj101's picture
Posts: 2481
Joined: 2010-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Yay it's time to hide the

Yay it's time to hide the eggs of fertility and celebrate sex and the new spring season!

"Some dipshit manages to make up and market a story about a magic man surviving rigor mortis, and I have to suffer because of the credulity of such nonsense."

How do you know god didn't put him in stasis or something and shot him with his beam of life 3 days later, he may have never suffered from rigor mortis at all! All things are possible with god! He could turn the world upside down and make you walk on your head!

 

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
The Fig Tree Curse & Temple Insurrection

 


Mark:


Jesus awakes the next morning and he was hungry. He sees a fig tree far off and walks over thinking yum, yum figs would be so good for breakfast. When the omniscient one gets to it he finds nothing but leaves as it was the wrong season for them. Being pissed off he throws a temper tantrum and curses the fig tree saying, "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever." I know how this feels when I go to the supermarket and they are out of figs, though so far it hasn't dried up & blown away in the wind. Is this not the rantings of an eccentric desert healer prophet who has spent far too long in the Sun?


After being deprived of breakfast it is a very ill tempered Jesus that goes to the Temple. He sees the concession salesmen and throws them out and turns over the tables of the money changers. He claims that scripture says the Temple should be a house of prayer but it has been turned into a den of thieves. Well that's a change from earlier times when it was also a whorehouse.


Really this attack on the concessions is basically insurrection or rebellion against authority as the Temple was the financial center of the province of Judea. He committed, assault, battery, property destruction, public endangerment, rebellion against authority, and violation of the sacred laws of a religious group. I see only pain coming here as an end. Mark 11:12-19


Matthew:


In this version Jesus was hungry and walks over to the fig tree, finds no fruit and curses it. It immediately withered. The disciples marvel at how Jesus killed the poor defenseless tree so quickly. He tells them making his temper tantrum sound like a good thing, "if you have faith and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also ye shall say unto the mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea, it shall be done. " It's probably a good thing no one has had faith enough or we might have had many mountains being cast into the sea, just think about the resulting tsunami.


As mentioned, Jesus attacked the money changers on Palm Sunday in Matt's version not the next day when he went without his fig breakfast. Then despite the rules regarding the unclean, the blind and lame they somehow came to Jesus in the Temple and he healed them. Just how did they get past the 400 Temple guards and the added 100 or so Roman soldiers posted for the Passover Feast? Matt 21:12-22


Luke:


He omits the Jesus temper tantrum cursing an inanimate tree. He too had the Temple insurrection on Palm Sunday. Somehow the priests didn't understand that Jesus had just committed many crimes as they could not find what to do.


John:


He goes directly to the feast of the passover skipping over all that which is in the other books. Guess he just didn't think any of it would be important 2,000 years later or maybe he thought Mark had the copyright and he might be sued for plagiarism.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
robj101 wrote:Yay it's time

robj101 wrote:

Yay it's time to hide the eggs of fertility and celebrate sex and the new spring season!

"Some dipshit manages to make up and market a story about a magic man surviving rigor mortis, and I have to suffer because of the credulity of such nonsense."

How do you know god didn't put him in stasis or something and shot him with his beam of life 3 days later, he may have never suffered from rigor mortis at all! All things are possible with god! He could turn the world upside down and make you walk on your head!

 

The romans didn't crucify a body double? Strange man, stttrraanggee!

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


robj101
atheist
robj101's picture
Posts: 2481
Joined: 2010-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Kapkao wrote:robj101

Kapkao wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Yay it's time to hide the eggs of fertility and celebrate sex and the new spring season!

"Some dipshit manages to make up and market a story about a magic man surviving rigor mortis, and I have to suffer because of the credulity of such nonsense."

How do you know god didn't put him in stasis or something and shot him with his beam of life 3 days later, he may have never suffered from rigor mortis at all! All things are possible with god! He could turn the world upside down and make you walk on your head!

 

The romans didn't crucify a body double? Strange man, stttrraanggee!

Stasis is much cooler than a body double. Rays and stuff, yea way cooler man.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


JonathanBC
Posts: 139
Joined: 2010-01-28
User is offlineOffline
pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:



Four versions, all different in many ways pick your choice.

I'll take John, because I like that you said "Jesus finds his own ass" and that makes me giggle.

Wait, was that rhetorical?


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
The Poor Fig Tree Dies

The Poor Fig Tree Dies

Mark:


The next day Jesus and his disciples walk  pass the fig tree and it has withered and dried from the roots. Peter observed it's pitiful condition and told Jesus see the tree has withered away that  you cursed. Jesus being the tricksy son of God turns his temper tantrum into a lesson in piety and faith when he tells  them, "Have the faith of God.  Amen I say to you, that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but believe, that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him.  Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye pray, believe that you shall receive; and they shall come unto you.  And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught against any man; that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you your sins.  But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins." Mark 11:22-26 - Douay-Rheims


So, instead of admitting he had a baby tantrum and had a childish attitude he turns his immature behavior into a lesson. Jesus clearly spent too much time in the Sun or was just in need of therapy to handle his quick temper and childish behavior. OK, why not pray for something constructive, say like a fig tree that gives fruit continuously. Why pray to cast a mountain into the sea causing severe Earthquakes, tsunamis and worldwide property destruction and death? What a brat!


They continue to Jerusalem and the Temple where the elders, scribes, and chief priests confront Jesus and ask him by what authority he does his actions. Instead of answering the question directly the tricky one says he will tell them if they first tell him if the baptism of John was of heaven or men. Knowing they have been cornered they realize many of John's followers are about if they say of heaven they suspect the tricky one will ask why they didn't believe him. If they answer of men, his followers may riot or cause a disturbance. They instead say, they didn't know. So Jesus says, nor will I tell you by what authority I do these things. Mark 11:27-33


Nice dodge. If you won't tell me, I won't tell you.


Jesus then told the parable of the wicked husbandman & vineyard. This is told in other places & versions including the sayings of Thomas. He used this story to compare the priests to those in the story who kill the heir, After he told it the priests want to seize him but they were afraid his followers would cause a disturbance. Mark 12:1-12


Instead they had one of the Pharisees ask Jesus was it lawful to pay tribute to Caesar? Jesus tells them to give to Caesar that which is his and to God that which is God's. Since he dodged that one some of the Sadducees who believed in no resurrection asked him a question regarding a wife and 7 brothers who each die and take the wife as theirs. They want to know who's wife she will be in heaven. Jesus tells them there will be no marriage but as the angels.


After dodging this one yet another scribe asks him what is the 1st commandment of all. Jesus told him to love the Lord God with all their strength. And the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. The scribe told him he had said the truth. Jesus told him he was not far from the Kingdom of God. Mark 12:13-34 A rare instance of praise for a scribe or Pharisee which is unique with Mark and pretty much nonexistent in the other Gospels.


Matthew:


Matthew had the same events but on Palm Sunday with several additions and changes.
After he refused to tell where his authority was based he told a parable of 2 sons, followed by the vineyard parable, and then the marriage feast parable. The tribute money question comes next followed by the resurrection question, and the great commandment. He does an extreme long rant against the scribes and Pharisees in Matt's version. Then he mourns over Jerusalem which was done in other places in other versions. He proceeds to foretell the destruction of the Temple and signs of the end times. In support of his views he tells the tale of the 10 virgins and lamps, the parable of the talents and ends with how all nations will be judged.


Interesting patchwork version which was well constructed to make the overall point. The creative way the stories and parables are presented indicates Matt was a later written book.


Luke:


Luke avoided the temper tantrum in regards to the fig tree completely, nary a word. As with Matt, Luke goes immediately into the Temple insurrection scene. He then claims Jesus taught daily in the Temple disregarding that he had just committed enough crimes to be executed. As with Matt, he tells the evasive authority story, the wicked husbandmen parable, the tribute money question, the resurrection question, and a short version chastising the scribes. He avoids completely the scene with the scribe who asked about the commandments because it didn't cast the scribe as an evil corrupt power mad priest.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
The Plot Thickens & a Hooker gives Jesus a massage or not

The Plot Thickens & a Hooker gives Jesus a massage or not

Mark:


After all the disruption Jesus had caused, the priests considered just how they might have him seized by trickery and executed. Don't they pay attention?  They knew if it was done on the feast day there could be a riot. Drunk religious party goers can be a problem.


In the meanwhile a woman comes to see Jesus with lotion or ointment which was very expensive. She poured it on his head. Those in his group considered it was wasteful as it could have been sold and the money used for the poor. Jesus told them to leave it alone for she had done a good thing for him, there will always be poor but I won't be here for long. Sounds like he enjoyed it.


This is one of several versions of a woman oiling down Jesus. Apparently more than his head gets oiled down as he says she came to anoint his body before burial.


Just in the nick of time one of the 12 loyal followers decides to become a double agent, how very convenient for the priests. Judas went to them to see what they'd pay if he turned him over. Apparently, the idea of Wanted Dead or Alive Posters was not a practice in Judea. The priests are enthralled and promise to pay Judas. Mark 14:1-11


Matthew:


Jesus informs his followers that in 2 days the feast of the Passover will be, like they had no clue. He further tells them the Son of Man would be betrayed and crucified. In the meanwhile as with Mark's story the priests are plotting against Jesus in the High Priest Caiaphas' palace. Now we have a name and a location of the plotters.


Matt has the same story of the woman pouring oil on Jesus.


As in Mark, Judas goes conveniently to the priests who offer to pay him to sell out his friend and leader. This version mentions it is 30 pieces of silver. Matt 26:1-13


Luke:


Luke gives Judas motive for his sellout of his friend and leader, the evil one Satan entered into him. So is this possession? If so, was Judas responsible for anything that happens? He went to see the priests to determine how he could betray Jesus. They offered him money so he promised to do the dirty deed. Luke 22:1-6


The scene where a woman gives the messiah a foot rub is found earlier in Luke 7:36-40. In this version a hooker cried on his feet and washed them with her tears. She then rubbed and anointed them with ointment. We all know what a foot rub really means, if you don't know, watch the movie Pulp Fiction.


John:


John still has nothing going on until the Passover meal, but he also had the foot rub scene in John 12:1-11. In this version Mary of Mary & Martha fame (lots of Marys in the tricky one's life, hard to keep them straight) used the expensive ointment on Jesus and Judas is the one who asked why it wasn't sold to give money to the poor. It's like the movie Groundhog Day when you read each one of these scenes.


If a simple little story about rubbing ointment can't be kept straight, why would anything else? We'll soon see by the end of the week exactly how nothing could be kept straight.

Tomorrow is a really great day for myths of Holy week. Last Supper Tall Tales. Garden of Gethsemane Tales. Trial of the Tricky One Tales.
 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Last Supper Tales

 

 

 

Mark:

Mark has intrigue from the start when Jesus tells 2 of his disciples to go into the city and find a man bearing a pitcher of water. They are to follow him and whichever house he goes in they are to tell the owner my master asks where is the guest dinner room for us to eat passover? He will take you upstairs to a room already prepared. Does this not sound like code words and some kind of rebel underground? This secrecy to arrange the room speaks volumes. So the 2 disciples did and made all ready.

Later that evening, Jesus and his 12 disciples arrive. But, what of the other 2 who made all ready? As they sat and ate he tells them that one of them will betray him to the priests. No one asked why the priests would want to arrest him they all knew he had comitted criminal acts and was a wanted insurrectionist at this point. They all become very upset at this remark. Each one asks, is it I? He says it is the one of the 12 that dips with me in the dish. Clearly at this point each and every one of them would watch for this now. Mark does not identify who the traitor is at this point. Judas does not suddenly leave during the meal in this version. The meal is described as an intimate gathering of his followers or fellow rebel insurrectionists. They clearly had Jewish traditions that were observed as well as inside (group) rituals.

The actions of the bread & wine cernomony are not elaborate, just the simple this is my body and this is my blood statements. He does say he will drink no more wine until he does so in the new Kingdom of God.

After the meal they go outside after they sang a hymn. He tells them they all will be dispersed because of me but after I am risen I will meet you in Galilee. Peter claims, no I will never reject you. Jesus tells him before the cock crows twice he would deny him three times. All his disciples chime in that they would die with him rather than ever denying him. Mark 14:12-31

All through this, Judas is not mentioned leaving.

Matthew:

Jesus sends his disciples into the city with instructions to see a specific man and tell him that his master wants to have the Passover meal at his house with his disciples. The number of disciples who go isn't mentioned and no intrigue involved. They do so and make the meal ready.

As with Mark's version, when they are eating Jesus tells them one of them will sell him out to the priests. Again no surprise he is a wanted criminal just sorrowfulness and each asking is it I. Once again he says it will be the one that dips in the main dish with me. Surely 12 sets of eyes were watching for this and each was careful not to do so. When Judas asked if it is I, Jesus said, you have said it. The ceronmony again is simple as in Mark with the bread & wine. Jesus once aghain says he will drink no wine until the he does so in his Father's kingdom with them.

As in Mark, after they sang a hymn they went to the Mt of Olives. He tells them they will be scrattered and Peter says he would stand by him Jesus tells him before the cock crows he will deny him 3 times. Similar pledges of support by all to stand by him as in Mark. Matthew 26:17-35

Major differences:

No intrigue on setting up the room.

Judas is identified as the traitor. He does not leave suddenly.

Here, Jesus says before the cock crows Peter would deny him 3 times and did not say before it crowed twice.

Luke -

In this version Peter and John are sent out to procure the room using the method of Mark where they follow a guy with a water pitcher to a house and inform the owner their master wants to know where the guest banquet room is located. They did so and made the meal ready.

He sat with the 12 and ate telling them he wanted to do so before he suffered. He told them he would not eat of it again until the Kingdom of God was fulfilled. He aslo claimed he would not drink wine until that time as well. He tells them one of them will betray him and his hand is on the table with his.

Luke has a discussion as to which of them are the greatest which is also found in Mark but far earlier in the life and times of Jesus. In Mark it occurs as they are on the road to Capernaum just before he predicts his own death and right before the discussion with the rich ruler. Luke not being present for these events inserted it here as he thought it was appropriate.

Next Jesus tells Peter he will deny him 3 times before the cock crows. Peter insists he will go to his death before that should happen. Jesus asked when I sent all of you out without money did you lack for anything? No they say. Now he tells them he who has money and those who do not should sell their clothes and buy a sword. They tell him we have 2 swords. He says that is enough. They go out to the Mt of Olives and go to Gethsemane and no mention of singing.

Major Differences -

The traitor's hand is on the table.

Who is the greatest discussion.

Tells them to sell their clothes to buy swords.

No hymn sang.

 

John:

John has a complete different story to tell of the Passover meal. Jesus gets up from supper and pours out water to wash the feet of his disciples. He tells them if I as your master wash your feet then you should do so for one another. He then reveals one of them will sell him out to the priests. They all of course don't believe what he said. He then says it will be the one who I give a sop. He then gives one to Judas. Satan then entered him and Jesus told him to go what he needed to do. The others think because Judas had the money for the group he was going out to buy things for the feast. Again Peter is told he will deny Jesus 3 times before the cock crows.

John 13

Major Differences-

Jesus washes the disciples feet.

Judas is identified as the traitor by taking a sop from Jesus. Satan enters Judas.

Judas leaves to do the dirty deed.

Recap -

2 disciples get the banquet hall by following a man with a pitcher in 2 of the versions. In a 3rd version the disciples just go to a certain man's house and tell him the master wants the room. John doesn't discuss accomodation prep.

The traitor is identified differently in all. Mark - traitor dips in main dish with him. Matthew - Judas is identified as the traitor when he asked is it I. Luke - traitor has his hand on the table at the same time as Jesus. John - traitor takes a sop from Jesus.

3 versions have the remberance meal, John does not.

Jesus claims in all versions he won't drink wine again before the kingdom comes.

A hymn is sung before they go to the Mt of Olives in 2 of the versions.

Peter is told he will deny Jesus 3 times before the cock crows, except in Mark where it is before it crows twice.

All four versions have significant differences, some have information that will contradict other events later on as well.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Tall Tales of the Garden Episode

 

 

 

 

 

Mark:

They go to a place called Gethsemane usually wrongly called a garden. He leaves all except Peter, James and John to wait for him taking them along as possible guards, he was wanted for insurrection remember. He then goes a bit further and falls on the ground and prays that if possible please take this task from me. He returns and finds the 3 disciples sleeping. This happens 3 times and on the 3rd he tells them to wake up as the traitor has come.

Judas then arrives with a group of armed men from the high priests with swords & staves. Judas walks up and kisses Jesus which is the sign that he is the one to be seized. One of the disciples drew a sword and cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest. All of them flee for their lives and a young man loses his clothes and runs away naked. Somehow I missed seeing a naked guy running away in Mel's movie. Mark 14:32-52

Significant Points

Jesus goes back and forth 3 times and finds the 3 disciples asleep.

A naked follower flees from the scene.

Matthew:

Matt's version is similar to Mark until Judas arrives. Judas says to Jesus hail master and kissed him and Jesus asked him, friend why have you come. Jesus is seized and one of the followers attacked and sliced off the ear of the high priest's servant. He tells them to put away their weapons as he could have 12 legions of angels. He is then led away to the high priest Caliphas house. Matt 26:36-56

Major Differences

Jesus says he could have 12 legions of angels at his command if he wanted.

Luke:

After the meal they went to Gethsemane. Jesus tells his disciples to pray so they don't fall into temptation. He goes a stones throw away and prays. An angel appears to help strengthen Jesus. He prayed so hard in agony his sweat was as blood droplets. He went back to his disciples and found them sleeping. He told them to arise and pray. When he said this a large group of armed men arrived and Judas was with them. One of them struck the servant of the high priest cutting off his ear. Jesus healed it. Luke 22:39-54

Major Differences -

An angel appears to help Jesus.

He is in such agony his sweat is as blood droplets.

Jesus healed the ear that was cut off the high priest's servant.

John:

This version calls Gethsemane a garden, a place known to Jesus as well as Judas. Jesus goes there with his disciples. Judas arrives with a band of armed men. Jesus asked who they sought. They said Jesus of Nazareth. He said, I am he. When he said this they all went backwards and fell to the ground. He then again asked he they wanted. They repeated Jesus of Nazareth. He said, I already told you I am he, let the others leave and I will go with you. Peter took his sword and attacked Malchus the servant of the high priest cutting off his ear. Jesus told him to put away his sword as he must drink the cup the Father has given him. John 18:1-12

Major Differences -

Jesus does not pray in the garden.

Jesus causes the armed men to fall to the ground just with his voice.

Peter is the one that cuts off the high priests servant's ear. He also is named.

Recap -

Jesus prays in the garden in 3 of the 4 versions but not in John.

A naked man flees the scene in terror in Mark.

Jesus goes back & forth 3 times finding 3 disciples sleeping in Mark.

An angel appears to help Jesus in Luke.

Jesus claimed he could have 12 legions of angels intervene if he wanted in Matthew.

Jesus is in such agony he sweats as in blood droplets in Luke.

Jesus heals the ear cut off by a follower in Luke.

Jesus causes the armed men to fall to the ground just with his voice in John.

Peter is the one that cut of the ear of the high priest's servant in John.

These accounts just had to add some magic at some point, ear healing or not. Armed men falling to the ground or not. So much legend, so little basis in the real world. It's like the accounts evolved each time it was told.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Trial before the Priests

 

 

Mark:

Jesus is taken to the high priest's palace to faces charges. All of the chief priests, scribes and elders were also gathered there. Peter followed and sat with the servants by a fire. The priests ask for witnesses against Jesus so they could execute him and found no one. Many made false statements though as with the Gospel accounts they were erroneous and did not agree. One said he heard Jesus would destroy the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. Finally the high priest asked him if he was the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One. He said, I am and you will see the Son of Man sit on the right hand of power coming in the clouds of heaven. The high priest says what more do we need; you have all heard his blasphemy. The group all condemned him to death spitting on him and hitting him with the palms of their hands.

Meanwhile, Peter the spy was hiding out amidst the servants and one of the serving maids saw him and said you are with Jesus. He tells her, I don't understand what you say. He went out to the porch and the cock crowed. Another woman saw him standing and told those around, he was one of them that was with Jesus. He again denies it. Shortly thereafter others said surely you are one of his followers as you are a Galilean. He denied it vehemently cursing. The cock crowed a 2nd time and Peter remembered what Jesus said and wept.

What Mark wants you to think is Jesus was hauled in front of the Sanhedrin council to face charges? Later on in the book of Acts when Stephen is also charged with blasphemy note how the ceremonious Sanhedrin Council again becomes a lynch mob. Really the 2 stories are the same and both are filled with unlikely events. It would be like the 9 judges on the Supreme Court came down and assaulted a defendant. In another case when Peter is charged, he is let go when they consider the charges and Gamaliel the Pharisee leader says if it is of God, we would be fighting against him, if not it will go away. Such has been the case with many other messiah wannabes in the 1st century, why should Jesus be different? Mark has no Pharisee learned masters in the mob at Jesus' trial and the rules and procedures were not followed, they become an emotional lynch mob.

Matthew:

Matt has Jesus taken to Caiaphas the high priest's palace where all of priests scribes and elders are gathered but no mention of Pharisees. In Mark, only one testifies about destroying the Temple and rebuilding it in 3 days, Matt has 2 witnesses saying it. He is asked if he is the Christ, the Son of God and he answered you have said it. As with Mark, the lynch mob became violent.

Peter in Matt is approached by a girl who said you were also with Jesus. He denies it saying. I don't understand what you say. He goes out to the porch and another maid saw him and claimed he was also with Jesus. Peter swears an oath saying I do not know the man. Shortly after those who had been warming by the fire came to him and said, surely you are one of his followers as your accent is Galilean. He again denied it cursing and swearing. The cock then crowed.

Major Differences -

The cock crowed 1 time.

Two testify Jesus would destroy the Temple & rebuild it.

Luke:

As with the other accounts Jesus is taken to the high priest's house and Peter followed. This version has Peter in the hall next to a fire. A maid saw him and claimed he was with Jesus. He denies it and said I don't know him. Soon after another claims he was with him, and he says man I am not. An hour later another man said he is one of them as he is Galilean. Peter said, I don't know what you say. The cock crowed and Jesus looked directly at Peter who left weeping profusely.

The men who were holding Jesus blindfolded him, mocked him and hit him. Supposedly they made blasphemous comments against him. When daybreak occurred Jesus is led into the council where he was asked if he was the Christ. The tricky one is back, he said if I tell you won't believe me. If I ask you won't answer me nor will you let me go. He the said the Son of man will soon sit on the right hand of power of God. Are you then the Son of God he is asked. He said you say I am. They conclude they need no more.

Major Differences -

Peter is in the hall where Jesus is held, not outside.

Peter denies knowing Jesus to a woman, a man, and another man.

Jesus looks at Peter after the 3rd denial.

Jesus is blindfolded and mocked.

He answered as the tricky one.

John:

He is first led to Annas the father in law of the high priest Caiaphas. Caiaphas had earlier concluded it was in their best interest for one man to die for the people. Peter followed as did another disciple who went inside as he was known by the priests. This disciple was probably James the Just the supposed brother of Jesus. Peter waited outside the door until the other disciple convinced the woman at the door to also let in Peter. When she does she recognized him and said you are one of Jesus' disciples. He said no I am not. Peter goes over by the fire where the servants and officers are, kind of risky after he cut off the ear of one of them.

Jesus is asked of his teaching and tells them he taught openly, ask those who have heard me. He is struck by one of the guards and told to answer. Annas then sends him to Caiaphas. Peter is asked by those at the fire aren't you also one of his disciples? He denies it. A servant related to the one who had his ear removed by Peter said didn't I see you in the garden? He denies it. The cock then crowed.

Major Differences-

Jesus is taken to Annas first before Caiaphas.

2 disciples follow, one has access to the high priests.

Peter denies knowing Jesus to the woman at the door. He denies knowing him to those at the fire. He denies being at the garden to a man related to the one he gave a close haircut with his sword.

Recap -

These accounts want you to think Jesus was tried before the Sanhedrin Council, yet the Pharisees and learned masters & teachers are not there. For an in depth discussion of what is wrong with the account of Jesus’ supposed trial before the council as well as the Stephen account see a book called The Mythmaker by Hyam Maccoby chapter 6 pp 50-61

Mark has Peter denying Jesus to 2 women and a group by the fire. The cock crows 2 times.

Matt has Peter denying Jesus as in Mark but the cock crows only 1 time.

Luke on the other hand has Peter denying Jesus to a woman and 2 men before the cock crowed 1 time and has Peter within eye-shot of Jesus in the hall.

John has Peter denying Jesus to the woman at the door, those at the fire, and a relative of the man that Peter had mutilated in the garden.

John had another disciple go in to the high priest's house who had access and was known of them which is likely to be James as he was a priest, at least 30 years later in Acts as well as in Josephus' accounts.

 So what is one supposed to think when all of these accounts differ? I see it as legends that were spread orally over the years. The main characters are usually the same but not consistently. The actions that are described differ enough that one can conclude they were not written by anyone who actually witnessed the events. This is especially true when Jesus is off by himself supposedly praying. Other questions that occur is who took notes during the questioning in front of the high priests? The only possibility comes from John who claimed another disciple had access, though John is very unreliable in consistency with the other accounts. All these differences cause one to suspect unreliabilty in the accounts as why accept any of it as reality based if the plot differs so significantly. This continues on execution day as well. Be sure to watch out for wandering zombies that have just walked out of graves tomorrow.

 

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
Now that you are up to the

Now that you are up to the arrest, I would like to observe one possibly salient point:

 

 

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Crucifixion Tales - Before Pilate


Mark:


Early the next morning the chief priests and the elders agree they should take Jesus to Pilate as only the Romans could order executions. Really now, even though Jews supposedly stone heretics several times in the NT, Stephen, James and Paul  for example they asked for permission for this right? Yeah sure! Pilate questions him but Jesus doesn't defend himself. As with custom, Roman governors would release prisoners or pardon them during feasts or festivals. Pilate hits on the idea of giving the mob, I mean the crowd a choice between 2 insurrectionists that are in custody. Jesus, the slightly Sun baked wacky prophet and Barabas who had killed when he committed his crime. When Pilate asked the crowd who they wanted they asked for Barabas and they demand Jesus be executed.


The Romans take Jesus and mocked him putting a purple robe on him as well as a crown of thorns. As the Romans felt superior to the Jews, the mocking and torture were a way to show disgust for them. When they were done they put his old clothes back on him and take him to be crucified. Mark 15:1-19


The Pilate in Mark is like what Josephus indicates, cunning, cruel and decisive. Other Gospels indicate Pilate was a wimp or a concerned governor who cares about those he governs. That's pure bullshit, Pilate saw the Jews as scum what was the big deal if an innocent Jew was killed, he'd have liked to exterminate them all if he could. What I don't get is a Roman is awake early in the morning, and even during a festival. Maybe he was still up from the night before, but it's just not believable for me.


If both Barabas and Jesus were insurrectionists, who was more valuable to the crowd? One that had demonstrated he'd kill to pursue goals or one that demonstrated instability and promised to bring in the Kingdom of God? Did Jesus even know which end of a sword to hold?


Matthew-


We learn that Judas was remorseful for selling out his friend Jesus and takes the money back. The priests refuse to change their plans and Judas throws the money down and goes out and hangs himself. Afterwords, the priests use the money to buy the potter's field to bury strangers.


 Meanwhile Jesus was taken to Pilate as in Mark. Matt adds more fiction to the story claiming Pilate's wife had a dream regarding Jesus and she told him to have nothing to do with it. Pilate asked as in Mark if they wanted Barabas or Jesus released. When they demand Jesus be executed, he washes his hands symbolically showing he did not have the blood of an innocent man on them. When, did Jews suddenly get the status of being more than roaches to be squished in the eyes of Romans like Pilate? Certainly not from what Josephus has to say. As with Mark, Jesus is tortured and made ready to be executed. Matt 27:1-31


As Matt is the only one that suggests Judas killed himself it's seems to be a wishful story playing to the masses so to speak. The evil doers get what they deserve in the end. The end of John makes this suspect as does the non-canon Book of Judas.


So, exactly who gave the in depth interview that details Pilate's wife dream and their private conversation? Was Matt  inside Pilate's palace? I call bullshit on this claim, show me proof Pilate gave a damn about Jews.


Luke:


If the crap isn't deep enough for you yet Luke will take care of that. Get out your hip boot waders as it's going to rise like a broken sewer line.


Luke starts off with Jesus taken to Pilate with a claim he was leading a rebellion against Caesar. Did these clowns finally get it right? They are closer. They claim he was inciting rebellion against Caesar by telling people not to pay tribute as well as claiming to be a king. Many Zealots did exactly that, so could be. However, Pilate questions him and decides he is innocent. He also hears he is a Galilean and sees an out. He tells then to take him to Herod as he is responsible for Galilee.


When Herod sees Jesus he is quite elated as he wanted to meet him for a long time to see the miracles and magic Jesus performed. Perhaps he got mixed up and thought it was Apollonius  of Tyana that had reportedly performed thousands of miracles that was being brought to him. Instead it was the Sun baked desert prophet who refuses to play his game or even say anything. Herod becomes impatient and bored and has his soldiers mock him, dress him as a king and then send him back to Pilate.


When Jesus gets back to Pilate he calls the priests and mob back informing them that neither he nor Herod can find anything that deserves execution so he will be tortured and released. No, release Barabas and crucify Jesus the crowd demands. In the end Pilate agrees and sends him to be executed. Luke 23:1-25


I'd buy the story that Jesus was a rebel Zealot based on parts of the stories in the Gospels. As I have indicated, he did commit insurrection in the Temple, they had him on that, but nope they didn't even bring it up.


Major Differences -


The claim he was leading a rebellion against Rome.
Taken to Herod to perform his magic. Given expensive robe by Herod.
Returned to Pilate.


John:


Jesus is taken early in the morning to Pilate, yeah right. But the Jews stay outside least they be defiled as it was Passover. Right, I'm sure the whores and drunks were still laying about early in the morning at Pilate's Palace if anyone was even awake. As in other versions they demand he be executed. There is much discussion between Pilate and Jesus. So who exactly transcribed these discussions? The priests claim they had to come to Pilate for judgment because they couldn't execute him. Really? Just how many times did they try to stone Jesus in John? Blasphemers were killed this way, the proof is in the Bible. Pilate is shown as a fair governor and a reasonable man in contrast to 1st century writers that describe him as ruthless. John 18:28-40 to 19:1-16


Major Differences -


Who recorded the narrative between Pilate & Jesus?


Recap -


Going to a Roman's house early in the morning is just stupid, especially during a feast week. Why would anyone be up, unless they still were from an overnight orgy.
Given a choice between a rebel insurrectionist & a wacky desert prophet the people want the rebel freed. Surprise!
Pilate is decisive in Mark, sends Jesus to die.
Judas commits suicide in Matt and a bullshit claim for the origin of the name field of blood is included.
There is a spy in Pilate's house who recorded conversation between Pilate & his wife specifically on her dreams.
Luke claims Jesus was leading a rebellion against Caesar.
Pilate sends Jesus to be judged by Herod in only the Sci-Fi adventures of Luke.
Herod provides the expensive robe for Jesus not the Romans in Luke.
John has an extensive narrative between Jesus and Pilate. Who exactly transcribed this talk?

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


totus_tuus
Theist
totus_tuus's picture
Posts: 516
Joined: 2007-04-23
User is offlineOffline
Of course Pilate's up early

Of course Pilate's up early in the morning.  Being a Roman ain't all wine and women.  Dude's gotta job to do, he's not there to celebrate the feast, he's there to police it.  Pilate is a soldier with a soldier's mission, that is, to enforce the Pax Romana, and to do so by force of arms, if necessary, but preferably not.  His boss, Caesar, is interested in peace and profit and war is an expensive and uncertain undertaking, even a little backwater uprising.  You're right that Pilate could care less or the Jews as a people, they are, at best, reluctant subjects of the Empire.  Pilate's concern is for one person in this whole misadventure and that is - Pontius Pilate.  A city teeming with religious zealots celebrating their most sacred feast, policed by an undersized Roman garrison, with Caesar keeping a careful eye on the Empire's ledger books; trust me, Pilate ain't getting much sleep these days as he balances between an insurrection  of the Jews and an insurrection by the followers of the "Sun-baked One".

Why not a disciple of Christ in Pilate's household?  Jesus had something of a soft spot for soldiers.  He'd interacted with at least one (the centurion whose servant he cured), maybe more.  My money though, is on Pilate's wife, although the centurion is close behind.

The rebellion claim is a total fabrication on the part of the Jewish hierarchy, way off the mark on their part ("Render unto Caesar..." ) .

A large part of your difficulty in reconciling these accounts is that you take for granted the theory of Markan priority handed onto you during your Jesuit education.   Matthew is the first Gospel written, followed by Luke.  Mark is a transcript of talks given by Peter in Rome in which Peter conflates Matthew and Luke.  If an event was recorded to his recollection in either of the earlier accounts he often omits it.  Sometimes he adds personal recollections as he proceeds through his talk and that's where the differences occur.  John is, of course, written in the 80's and 90's and where John feels there are significant gaps or events are inadequately explained he expands on them.  Read with this in mind the differences between the Gospels (in particular your difficulties with the "triumphal entry" episode fade to insignificance. 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
totus_tuus wrote:Of course

totus_tuus wrote:

Of course Pilate's up early in the morning.  Being a Roman ain't all wine and women.  Dude's gotta job to do, he's not there to celebrate the feast, he's there to police it.  Pilate is a soldier with a soldier's mission, that is, to enforce the Pax Romana, and to do so by force of arms, if necessary, but preferably not.  His boss, Caesar, is interested in peace and profit and war is an expensive and uncertain undertaking, even a little backwater uprising.  You're right that Pilate could care less or the Jews as a people, they are, at best, reluctant subjects of the Empire.  Pilate's concern is for one person in this whole misadventure and that is - Pontius Pilate.  A city teeming with religious zealots celebrating their most sacred feast, policed by an undersized Roman garrison, with Caesar keeping a careful eye on the Empire's ledger books; trust me, Pilate ain't getting much sleep these days as he balances between an insurrection  of the Jews and an insurrection by the followers of the "Sun-baked One".

As I said, Pilate in Mark is described more like Josephus' account, a ruthless self centered Roman. To placate the leaders in Judea, (the Herodian priests), Jesus would have been dispatched upon request, no claims of he's an innocent man blah blah.

totus_tuus wrote:

Why not a disciple of Christ in Pilate's household?  Jesus had something of a soft spot for soldiers.  He'd interacted with at least one (the centurion whose servant he cured), maybe more.  My money though, is on Pilate's wife, although the centurion is close behind.

Someone's been reading unattributed manuscripts with unsubstantiated claims regarding Pilate and his household. Which one?

totus_tuus wrote:

The rebellion claim is a total fabrication on the part of the Jewish hierarchy, way off the mark on their part ("Render unto Caesar..." ) .

Was it? Seems there were quite a few unhappy with the situation in the 1st century CE, several messiah wannabes and rebellions. I suggest a book for you to consider by Robert Eisenman titled 'The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians". Also see Wayne A Meeks "The First Urban Christians" and mentioned somewhere in this thread "The Mythmaker" by Hyam Maccoby

totus_tuus wrote:

A large part of your difficulty in reconciling these accounts is that you take for granted the theory of Markan priority handed onto you during your Jesuit education.   Matthew is the first Gospel written, followed by Luke.  Mark is a transcript of talks given by Peter in Rome in which Peter conflates Matthew and Luke.  If an event was recorded to his recollection in either of the earlier accounts he often omits it.  Sometimes he adds personal recollections as he proceeds through his talk and that's where the differences occur.  John is, of course, written in the 80's and 90's and where John feels there are significant gaps or events are inadequately explained he expands on them.  Read with this in mind the differences between the Gospels (in particular your difficulties with the "triumphal entry" episode fade to insignificance. 

As no one has ever found the lost diary of Peter and it's conjecture to conclude Mark had visiting privileges at a prison in Rome where Peter may or may not have been held you are presenting only legend as fact to substantiate any connection. As to Matthew being the first written story telling, that is a minority opinion among scholars and certainly not one held in my Jesuit education. John if the disciple was a very old man in the 80s or 90s subject to old age memory issues and recollections of events of 60 years earlier. Luke on the other hand is Paul's marketing promoter and one of the best Sci-Fi writers in the Bible though Matt does a good job writing some of his own fiction as well.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
totus_tuus wrote:Of course

totus_tuus wrote:

Of course Pilate's up early in the morning.  Being a Roman ain't all wine and women.  Dude's gotta job to do, he's not there to celebrate the feast, he's there to police it.  Pilate is a soldier with a soldier's mission, that is, to enforce the Pax Romana, and to do so by force of arms, if necessary, but preferably not.  His boss, Caesar, is interested in peace and profit and war is an expensive and uncertain undertaking, even a little backwater uprising.  You're right that Pilate could care less or the Jews as a people, they are, at best, reluctant subjects of the Empire.  Pilate's concern is for one person in this whole misadventure and that is - Pontius Pilate.  A city teeming with religious zealots celebrating their most sacred feast, policed by an undersized Roman garrison, with Caesar keeping a careful eye on the Empire's ledger books; trust me, Pilate ain't getting much sleep these days as he balances between an insurrection  of the Jews and an insurrection by the followers of the "Sun-baked One".

Why not a disciple of Christ in Pilate's household?  Jesus had something of a soft spot for soldiers.  He'd interacted with at least one (the centurion whose servant he cured), maybe more.  My money though, is on Pilate's wife, although the centurion is close behind.

The rebellion claim is a total fabrication on the part of the Jewish hierarchy, way off the mark on their part ("Render unto Caesar..." ) .

A large part of your difficulty in reconciling these accounts is that you take for granted the theory of Markan priority handed onto you during your Jesuit education.   Matthew is the first Gospel written, followed by Luke.  Mark is a transcript of talks given by Peter in Rome in which Peter conflates Matthew and Luke.  If an event was recorded to his recollection in either of the earlier accounts he often omits it.  Sometimes he adds personal recollections as he proceeds through his talk and that's where the differences occur.  John is, of course, written in the 80's and 90's and where John feels there are significant gaps or events are inadequately explained he expands on them.  Read with this in mind the differences between the Gospels (in particular your difficulties with the "triumphal entry" episode fade to insignificance. 

1. Well. since it doesn't say how "early in the morning" and with all the apologetics about the illegality of Jesus being tried at night, no one really knows how many hours pre-sunrise this was.

2. As you said, Pilate was military. With the troubles that were around him, he wasn't going to leave himself sleepy and vulnerable either.

3. Why not a Christian in the household? Even a rumor of that would have caused the insurrection that Pilate was there to avoid.

4. There were insurrections during Pilate's tenure so it wasn't outside the realm of possibility. That's why Barabbas was jailed, remember?

5. So you have the writer of Matthew (not Matthew, btw) written first, Luke copying from Matthew and Mark being a compilation of the confused ramblings of Peter? You'd be better off joining the consensus that accepts Markan priority. It makes your boys look better.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Tall Tales of the Crucifixion

 

 

 

 

 

If you thought these stories so far were full of fiction and BS, it only gets worse. Again, watch out for the zombies as there are some in this post. Not to mention Earthquakes.

Mark:

As they progress to the execution site a man named Simon a Cyrenian was pressed into service to help carry the cross. Probably said the wrong thing to a Roman soldier. When they got to Golgotha they gave him wine mixed with myrrh but Jesus wouldn't drink it. After they crucified him they parted his clothes and cast lots for them. An inscription was placed over his head that read, "The King of the Jews". A thief was crucified on each side of him. Those who had been in the mob came and mocked him. Later on, Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me." Someone gave him a drink of vinegar on a sponge, He then died and the veil in the Temple was rent in two. A Roman centurion said, surely this was the Son of God. Watching from afar were many women, Mary Magdelene, Mary the mother of James the less and Joses, and Salome. Mark 15:21-41

See what happens when you don't get out of the way of a group of Romans, you get pressed into service dragging a heavy cross. Jesus refused the wine remember no more booze in this life, but he takes the vinegar. What was it made from? So what god exactly did a pagan Roman centurion mean that fathered Jesus? Mithra? Zeus?

Major Points-

There are 2 thieves executed with Jesus. No conversation is mentioned.

A pagan Roman centurion thinks Jesus was the Son of God. Which one exactly?

Many of the women from the life of Jesus watch from afar, no disciples are mentioned, they all fled remember.

Matt:

The start of the tale is just like Mark until the mob insults and ridicules Jesus. The thieves also do so. When Jesus dies, in addition to the Temple veil being rent in two there is an Earthquake where rocks are split. The graves open and dead people arose and walked among the living seen by many. When the Roman centurion sees the earthquake and dead people coming from graves he says this was truly the Son of God. Among the onlookers from afar were Mary Magdelene, Mary the mother of James & Joses and the mother of the Zebedees. Matt 27:32-56

What Earthquake? Zombies walking among the people? Really, did someone get a notarized statement from either a Zombie or someone who saw one? So unnamed dead people come to life and are observed by many unnamed people. If you think that is really great evidence, have I a deal for you. Undeveloped prime real estate off I-95 in South Florida. OK, it's generally a swamp & underwater but when it's not just think. Cash only though.

Major Differences -

Earthquakes

Dead people coming forth from graves.

The thieves being executed both revile Jesus.

Luke:

After Simon is recruited to carry the cross Jesus has time to give a talk en route to the large group of women who are following. Was this between whippings and hits by the Romans? When they get to the execution site 2 malefactors are also crucified one on each side. One tells Jesus if he is the Christ save yourself and us. The other is repentant and said we deserve our death but this man is innocent. He asked Jesus to remember him in his kingdom. The Sun becomes darkened, the veil in the Temple is torn asunder, and Jesus dies. All those about beat their breasts. All of his followers and the women of Galilee stood afar off. Luke 23:26-49

Other versions had no conversation with the other executed criminals or insults only from them. This one has the repentant thief on the cross.

Major Differences -

One criminal on the cross is repentant.

All those who observe the events beat on their breasts when Jesus dies. Does this include the priests and lynch mob?

John:

John apparently didn't see Simon carry the cross for Jesus or hear Jesus' comments to the large group of women who followed according to Luke, or even the large group of women. Apparently his mother and her sister, as well as Mary Magdelene, and Mary the wife of Cleophas and the beloved disciple were all standing close enough to the cross Jesus saw them. He tells Mary, behold thy son and the disciple behold thy mother. Jesus then died after he had a drink of vinegar. The soldiers came to finish them off found he was already dead and pierced his side with a spear. John 19:16-37

Major Differences -

Jesus carried his own cross, no help from Simon.

Mary and the other women as well as one disciple were close enough to see and hear Jesus, not so in all other accounts where they are afar off. He even tells his mother behold thy son and the disciple behold thy mother.

Jesus is pierced with a spear.

Recap -

Simon is enlisted to help carry the cross in 3 of 4 stories but not in John.

The women in his life were observing from afar except in John where Jesus speaks with his mother and a disciple who are close enough to talk.

Matt has Earthquakes and dead people coming forth from graves wandering the city.

In Matt both thieves mock Jesus but in Luke one is repentant.

When Jesus died all onlookers beat their breasts in sorrow in Luke. Did this also include the lynch mob?

Jesus is speared after he is dead in John's story.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Burial Tales

 

 

 

 

Burial Tales

Mark -

Since it was the evening before the Sabbath the people wanted the bodies removed. Joseph of Arimathaea, a Pharisee went to see Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate was surprised he was already dead. He asked a centurion to verify and was told he was. Joseph took the body and bought fine linen, wrapped it and put it in a sepulcher carved in rock. A large stone or boulder was rolled in front of it. Mary Magdalene and his mother saw where he was buried. Mark 15:42-47

Major Points -

Joseph Arimathaea was a Pharisee

Pilate was surprised Jesus is dead already.

Body placed in new sepulcher with new linen.

Mary Magdalene and Mary his mother saw where he was placed.

Matthew -

When the evening came a rich man, Joseph of Arimathaea who was also a Jesus follower, went to Pilate and asked for the body. Pilate gave it to him. He wrapped it in clean linen and put it in his own new tomb which was carved in rock. He had a stone rolled in front of it. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary saw where it was laid to rest.

The next day, the Herodian Priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate telling him how the deceiver Jesus claimed after 3 days he would rise from the grave. They asked the grave be sealed and guarded so his disciples could not go in and steal the body and claim he had risen from the dead. Pilate ordered it done. Matt 27:57-66

Major Differences -

Joseph Arimathaea is called a rich man & a follower of Jesus.

The body is wrapped in clean linen, not necessarily new.

Body is placed in Joe's own tomb.

Mary Magdalene & the other Mary saw where he was placed.

The priests & the Pharisees went to Pilate and asked to have the tomb sealed as well as for guards to prevent deception by his disciples.

 

Herodian priests and Pharisees doing anything together. That's like Republicans all suddenly voting for everything Obama asks for. Didn't happen. I call bullshit on this. 

 

Luke-

Joseph of Arimathaea a Pharisee, a good and just man went to Pilate and begged him for the body of Jesus. He took it down and wrapped it in linen putting it in a new sepulcher carved in rock. The women who were with him saw where it was and prepared spices, but it was the preparation for the Sabbath so they rested. Luke 23:50-56

Major Differences -

Joseph of Arimathaea is called a good & just man who begged Pilate for the body.He took the corpse down from the cross.

Body is wrapped in linen, clean, new not mentioned.

Unnamed women saw where the body was placed.

John -

Joseph of Arimathaea a disciple of Jesus asked Pilate if he could take the body. Pilate gave permission so he took it. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes and they took the body wrapped it in linen with the spices. In the place Jesus was executed there was a garden and a new sepulcher and they laid Jesus in it because it was close by and the preparation day was near. John 19:38-42

Major Differences-

Joseph of Arimathaea is now called just a disciple of Jesus.

Nicodemus, a Pharisee from earlier in the life & times of Jesus, helps out.

Jesus' body is placed in a nearby tomb.

Women are not mentioned seeing anything.

Recap -

Can't even take a body and bury it without multiple choice stories. Was Joseph a Pharisee, a rich man, a just man, a follower, or all or what?

Was the tomb his, or just a new one, or just convenient?

Clean linen, new, or just linen?

Herodian priests and their enemies the Pharisees went together to see Pilate in Matt. No way!

A 2nd Pharisee follower, Nicodemus helps Joe bury the body in John.

Mary M and the other Mary see where Jesus is buried. Or was it Mary M and mom. Or was it the women who were with him. Or was it none of them.

 

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Dead Man Walking

Dead Man Walking


Mark:


Early in the morning of the 1st day of the week, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and Salome brought spices to anoint the body of Jesus. As they approached the tomb they wondered among themselves how they were going to roll the stone away. As they got near the tomb, they saw it had already been rolled away. They entered the tomb and found a young man dressed in a white robe instead of the body of Jesus. They were shocked or astonished. He tells them, you seek Jesus of Nazareth. He is not here for he is risen. Go tell his disciples that he has gone before them to Galilee as he had said he would. They left the tomb in fear, trembling and told no one because they were afraid. Mark 16:1-8.


Major Points -


Mary M, Mary the mom of James & Joses, & Salome visit the tomb.
A young man in white robe is there. He tells them Jesus is risen & went to Galilee to meet up with his disciples.
The women depart in fear & tell no one.


That which follows is disputed as by the 4th century CE there were 4 different versions to the ending of Mark: Codex Vaticanus (B) ends at 16:8; Codex Sinaiticus Aleph does too; Codex Bobiensis has 16:9 but not the rest to v20; Later versions have Mark end at v20.


After Jesus had risen, he appeared 1st to Mary Magdalene who went and told those that had been his followers. When she 1st told them, they did not believe her. Jesus then appears to 2 unnamed followers as they walked in the country in another shape. They too told the rest of the followers and were not believed. He then appeared to the 11 remaining disciples at great length while they were eating. He commands them to go to all nations and preach the Gospel to all creatures. He gave them signs as proof, they would be able to:  cast out devils, speak in tongues; pick up snakes; if they drink poison, they will not be harmed; and heal the sick. After he had told them these things, he was received into Heaven and sat on the right hand of God. Mark 16:9-20


If it's not hard enough to sift through multiple complete versions of this story, now we get at least 4 versions of Mark's story telling. Where exactly did Mary Magdalene see Jesus as risen? Not in this account she didn't.


Major Additions -


Mary M tells the disciples she has seen the risen Jesus. When & where was that?
2 unnamed disciples see Jesus in another form, not as a living human I'd guess.
11 remaining disciples see Jesus while eating. He gives them their command to teach all RE: these events.
After he gives the disciples the commision to preach, he goes to heaven, quite different then the other story tellings of this legend.


Matt:


On the dawn of the 1st day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to the tomb. There was a great Earthquake and an angel rolled away the stone from the tomb scaring the bejesus out of the guards who are in such fear they become as dead men. The angel tells the women Jesus is not here for he has risen. The angel tells them to see where he had been laid. Then you should go tell his disciples he has gone to Galilee to meet them. The women departed quickly to tell the disciples and were met by Jesus. They took him by the feet and adored him. He repeated the message to tell his disciples he'd see them in Galilee.
Meanwhile, the guards reported in and told the chief priests all that had occurred. The priests and elders considered what to do and paid the guards great sums of money to say instead that his disciples came by night and stole the body while they were asleep. If the governor hears of this, we will explain to him and cover your butts.
The 11 disciples went to Galilee to a mountain, where Jesus had said he would meet them. They adored him though some doubted. He gave them the commission to teach all nations and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  He then is no longer mentioned. Matt 28:1-20


Major Differences -


Only Mary M and the other Mary go to the tomb.
There is an Earthquake, an angel rolls the stone away, & the guards are scared into a trancelike state.
The guards are bribed to claim the disciples stole the body while they were asleep. Since DNA analysis wasn't available nor forensics, just how did sleeping guards know who had committed the crime?
Jesus meets the 2 women after the angel talked with them. They fondled his feet.
11 disciples meet Jesus in Galilee on a Mt. He then is not mentioned again.


Luke:


Early in the morning of the 1st day of the week, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James and John go to the tomb. They found the stone had been rolled away. Inside instead of the corpse of Jesus they find 2 men there appear to be angels. They are told to remember what Jesus had said that he would be crucified and then rise on the 3rd day. The women went to the 11 disciples who consider the story of the women to be fantasy. Peter ran to the tomb and found it empty except for the linen which was  laid out.
2 of the followers, one called Cleopas were en route to Emmaus. They encounter Jesus who they tell about all the events that have just happened in Jerusalem. Jesus tells them they are fools for not believing & understanding what the prophets had spoken. They arrive at a village and went to eat, and Jesus vanished as they broke bread. They then knew it to be the risen Jesus. They went back to Jerusalem to tell the 11 and while doing so Jesus appears to them all. He shows them his hands and feet as proof. After he had ate they were given their commission. He then led them out as far as Bethany, lifted up his hands blessing them and he was carried into Heaven. Luke 24:1-53


It seems no one can keep the women straight. 2, 3, or their names. Luke loves to write Sci-Fi, so 1 angel wasn't enough, he had to have 2. I thought Jesus was supposedly going to meet up with his followers in Galilee?


Major Differences -


3 women go to the tomb - Mary M, Joanna, Mary the mother of James & John.
2 angels are at the tomb.
Jesus does not appear to the women.
2 disciples meet Jesus on the road to Emmaus.
All 11 see Jesus in Jerusalem in this version, not Galilee.
He then departs to heaven after blessing them from Bethany.


John:


Early on the 1st day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw the stone had been rolled away. She ran to get Peter and the disciple Jesus loved. Peter comes in 2nd in the race to the tomb. They see nothing except the linen clothes folded neatly. They then went home. Mary stood outside crying. She saw 2 angels inside who asked her why she cried. She turned around and saw a man she thought to be the gardener. He also asked her why she cried. She told him, sir if you have taken him away please tell me where. The man was Jesus who said to her, Mary. She then knew it was him and said Rabbi and tried to touch him. He told her not to as he had not as yet ascended into heaven. Mary then went and told the disciples what had happened.
That same day the disciples were assembled together behind closed doors for fear of the Jews (or was it arrest warrants for insurrection?), Jesus came to them and showed them his hands and feet. The disciples were joyous. Thomas was not present. He breathed on them the Holy Ghost, which makes the episode in the Book of Acts unneeded, except of course for Thomas. 8 days later, they were again assembled, all of them including Thomas. He had said he would not believe unless he felt the wounds in his hands and the hole in his side. He then did. John 20:1-31


Major Differences -


Only Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb.
Peter & John go their and find nothing but linen.
Mary sees 2 angels and then Jesus.
Mary is not allowed to touch Jesus.
10 disciples are assembled & see Jesus in a closed room.
They get the Holy Spirit, no need for Luke's Sci-Fi story in Acts.
Thomas 8 days later gets to touch Jesus' hands and side. Why not Mary?

Recap -


1, 2, or 3 women visit the tomb. Mary Magdalene is included in all versions.
They see 1 angel, 2 angels, or 2 angels & Jesus (Mary M's solo encounter)
2 unnamed disciples see Jesus as they walked in the country in Mark. In Luke it's Cleopas & another on the road to Emmaus.
In Mark the 3 women see an angel who told them Jesus will meet his disciples in Galilee.
In Mark, ending at 8, they go and tell no one. OR: Mary M tells the disciples she has seen Jesus. This was exactly when?
There was a great Earthquake in Matt's tale with an angel that scared the living daylight's out of the guards.
Guards are bribed to claim the disciples stole the body while they were asleep. How's that again?
Jesus meets the 2 Marys in Matt after they see an angel and they touch his feet.
Mary in John's version is not allowed to touch Jesus.
11 disciples see Jesus in 4th version of Mark, and he then departs for Heaven. OR:
11 disciples see Jesus in Galilee on a Mt. He then departs for Heaven in Matt. OR:
11 disciples see Jesus in a closed room in Jerusalem. He then departs to Heaven from Bethany. OR:
10 disciples see Jesus, not Thomas in John.. They receive the Holy Spirit making Luke's Sci-Fi in Acts unneeded.  8 days later all 11 see him. Thomas gets to touch Jesus though Mary was denied this even in this version.





 
 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Choose Your Own Passion Adventure Myth

Choose Your Own Passion Adventure Myth


1- When Jesus came into Jerusalem -
a) Rides in on a donkey colt 2 disciples stole.
b) Rides in on an ass & a colt because he has so much baggage or his own ass was too big for only one.
c) Rides in on an ass he personally steals.


2-After he arrives in Jerusalem he
a) Goes to the Temple and overturns the moneychangers concessions committing insurrection.
b) Goes to Bethany and the next morning is hungry. He sees a fig tree and wants figs. The Sun Scorched One is so pissed when it has none, wrong season, he cursed it. Hungry, he has ill temper and trashes the concessions at the Temple. The following day, the tree has died. Jesus tells his disciples if you believe hard enough, you too shall cause property damage and untold destruction such as casting mountains into the sea.
c) Spies a fig tree as he is hungry. It has no figs, wrong season. He cursed it and it immediately dies. The disciples are amazed. Jesus says, if you pray hard enough you can have mountains cast into the sea. Jesus doesn't mention this will cause loss of life and tsunamis.


3-Jesus
a)has a massage, from expensive oil which was done by a woman who is not named. The disciples say it should be sold for cash for the poor. Jesus said no, I liked it.
b)recalls the foot massage a hooker gave him with expensive lotion. He also enjoyed this as well, though the disciples wanted to sell it this time too.
c)recalls the great massage Mary gave him. Judas always looking for money wants to sell it.


4-The priests want to capture Jesus so
a)Judas goes to them and agrees to do it for 30 pieces of silver.
b)Judas goes to them because Satan has entered him and he agrees to sell out his friend.


5-Jesus wants a location for the Passover meal
a)so he sends out 2 disciples that are to look for a guy with a pitcher, follow him home. They are to go inside and demand to see the hall that the master wants for the festival.
b)so he sends his disciples to a man who they tell Jesus wants to have his meal there.
c)so he sends Peter & John to follow a guy with a pitcher home. They are to go inside and ask to see the banquet room.


6-Jesus
a)washes the disciples feet.
b)doesn'twash their feet, go to 7


7-Jesus claims
a)one of them will betray him and he'll have his hand in the main dish with me.
b)one of them will betray him and he'll have his hand in the main dish with me. Is it I asked Judas? Yes.
c)the one that will betray him has his hand on the table at the same time as he does.
d)the one that will betray me will take a sop from me.


8-Jesus said Peter will deny him 3 times
a)before the cock crowed twice
b)before the cock crows.


9-After dinner
a)they sing a hymn and go to the Mt of Olives.
b)Jesus tells them to sell their clothes and buy swords.


10-When they get to Gethsemane
a)Peter, James, & John go with him apart from the others, Jesus goes away by himself. He returns 3 times finding them asleep.
b)Jesus goes a stones throw from the disciples and prays. Angel comes to help him. He sweats as in blood droplets.
c)Judas shows up with the armed men.


11-When the armed band arrives to seize Jesus
a)one of the disciples slice off the ear of the high priest's servant.
b)one of the followers slice off the high priest's servant ear and Jesus immediately healed it.
c)Peter slices off the ear of Malchus, the high priest's servant.


12-After the armed men arrive
a)Jesus said he could have 12 legions of angels for defense if he wanted.
b)all the followers flee in fear, one so terrorized he loses his robe and runs naked from the scene.
c)Jesus causes them to all fall to the ground with just words.


13-After he is captured, Jesus is taken to
a)the high priest's palace.
b)the high priest's father-in-law's house.


14-Peter follows and gains access
a)by walking into the outer courtyard, warming himself by the fire.
b)when another disciple who is known to the priests goes in and informs the woman at the door to let him inside.


15-Peter denies knowing Jesus first to
a) a serving maid at the fire and then the cock crows.
b)a woman who approached him in the courtyard.
c)a woman inside the hall.
d)the woman at the door who lets him inside.


16-Peter denies knowing Jesus the 2nd time to
a)another woman while he was standing around near the fire.
b)a maid while he is on the porch.
c)another who claims he too was among the followers.
d)those standing about the fire.


17-Peter denies knowing Jesus the 3rd time
a)to others who said surely you are one of his followers as you are Galilean. The cock crowed a 2nd time.
b)to those about the fire. The cock then crows.
c)to a man who said, he is one of them as he is Galilean. Jesus then looks directly at him.
d)to a servant who is a relative of the guy who's ear Peter had cut off.


18-Jesus is taken
a)to Pilate. Who decides to quickly dispatch him to his execution after he gave the people a choice between Jesus and Barabas.
b)to Pilate. Who heeds his wife's warning as she had a dream he should have nothing to do with this incident. He then washes his hands of it, He gives the people a choice, Jesus or Barabas will die, the other goes free. They want Jesus executed.
c)to Pilate. When he hears he is Galilean, sends him to Herod. Herod is elated, he wanted to see Jesus' magic tricks. Jesus doesn’t perform. He is sent back to Pilate. Pilate gives the people a choice. Jesus or Barabas will die, the other goes free. They want Jesus executed.


19-Jesus is taken to his execution site
a)en route Simon is pressed into service to carry the cross.
b)en route Simon is pressed into service to carry the cross. and Jesus has time to discuss with the many women how their lives will become filled with woe.
c)directly.


20-While on the cross
a)the other 2 criminals say nothing to him.
b)the other 2 criminals insult and make fun of Jesus along with the lynch mob.
c)one of the criminals insults and mocks Jesus while the other is repentant.


21- When Jesus dies
a)the veil in the Temple is torn in two.
b)the veil in the Temple is torn in two. There is an Earthquake and dead people rise from the grave wandering the city.
c)it is right after he tells his mom and a disciple, behold thy mom, behold thy son.


22-Observing the execution
a)from afar were many women including Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James & Joses, and Salome.
b)close enough to talk with Jesus were Mary his mother and his disciple John.
c)may have been some of his followers from afar. (optional)


23-After Jesus has died
a)he is speared.
b)he is not speared.


24-Joseph asked Pilate for the body of Jesus
a)and he was a rich man.
b)a Pharisee
c)a good & just man.
d)all of the above.


25-Jesus is placed
a)in a new tomb with new linen by Joseph
b)in Joseph's own new tomb.
c)in a new tomb after Joseph removed Jesus from the cross.
d)in a new tomb that was convenient to the place of execution by Joseph and Nicodemus.


26-The Herodian priests and their enemies the Pharisees
a)went to see Pilate requesting the tomb be guarded and sealed lest his disciples steal the body and claim he had been resurrected as he had prophesied.
b)would not walk across the street to say shit to each other yet alone work on something together.


27-On the 1st day of the week
a)Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Joses & James and Salome visit the tomb.
b)Mary Magdalene and the other Mary visit the tomb
c)Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James & John visit the tomb.
d)Mary Magdalene went to the tomb.


28-When she/they got to the tomb
a)an angel is inside who told them Jesus is not there he has risen & will meet his disciples in Galilee.
b)2 angels are inside the tomb who tells them that Jesus is risen and will meet his followers in Galilee.
c)2 angels are in the tomb and they ask why the weeping. When she/they turn around a man thought to be a gardener is asked where the body has been taken. The man says, Mary and is recognized as Jesus.


29-When the women
a)see Jesus they touched his feet.
b)see Jesus are told not to touch him.
c)leave they tell no one.
d)leave, Mary Magdalene claimed to see Jesus.


30-2 followers/disciples
a)see Jesus in the country while walking and he was in another shape or form.
b)one named Cleopas see him on the road to Emmaus. When they stop for a meal, he disappears after he breaks bread.


31-A group of
a)11 disciples see Jesus in Galilee when they are eating. He gives them their commission & departs for heaven.
b)11 disciples go to a mountain in Galilee where Jesus appears. He gives them their commission. He then is not in the plot of the story any longer.
c)11 disciples are informed of the Jesus sighting on the road when he appears to them in Jerusalem. After he gives them their commission he departs for Heaven from Bethany.
d)10 disciples were hiding from arrest warrants behind closed doors when Jesus appears. He breathes on them the Holy Ghost, rendering the Luke version in Acts pointless. Thomas not there does not believe. 8 days later all 11 are gathered together and Jesus returns. Thomas touches the marks in his hands as well as the gash in his side. Mary M wasn't allowed to touch him earlier but Thomas can.


This will enable you to create whatever version of the story you choose, depending on your mood of the day, the current church or denomination to which you belong or the delusion you consider to be real. You can of course try to say all these things happened and these choices are no more than the perspective of the writer. Good luck with that.
 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


mellestad
Moderator
Posts: 2927
Joined: 2009-08-19
User is offlineOffline
Great write-up! Your

Great write-up!

 

Your capacity to write on this stuff at length and in depth is always impressive.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


mellestad
Moderator
Posts: 2927
Joined: 2009-08-19
User is offlineOffline
It does make me think

It does make me think though...if there is any basis in truth to the Jesus story then based on these accounts it probably went like this:

 

1. Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a donkey.

2. He possibly makes some people mad at a temple and later tells a story to his followers.  They might have passed a dead tree Jesus incorporated into his lesson of the day.

3. Jesus is chastised by his disciples for luxuriating in an expensive sensual massage but Jesus makes it sound like it isn't breaking his own teaching.

4. Someone tells authorities where Jesus is, possibly for the temple incident.

5. Jesus and his crew act important to get some free food.

6. meh

7. Jesus knew Judas didn't like him.

8. meh

9. Jesus panicks and tells his followers to arm themselves because he knows he is going to be taken, but most don't listen.

10. Jesus spends some time thinking about how fucked he is.

11. There is a scuffle, Jesus is taken by soldiers.

12. Jesus or his followers threaten authorities with divine wrath but nothing happens.

13. Jesus is taken somewhere.

14-15-16-17. One of his followers claims to have followed, but refuses to be associated with Jesus.

18. The authorities decide to kill Jesus without ceremony.

19. En route to his execution, Jesus collapses from exhaustion/fear and has to be helped by a random guy pressed into service by the soldiers escorting Jesus.

20-21-22-23. Jesus is executed along with some unimportant criminals.  No large fuss or ceremony is made and his followers are afraid to show themselves.  

 

(From here to the end the story fragments badly, probably because if there is any truth to the tale, it ends when Jesus dies.)  

 

Jesus dies like a common thief without zombie uprisings or earthquakes.

24-25. Someone offers to pay for Jesus' burial.

26. Guards are posted at the tomb because Jesus' followers are probably wanted men.

27-31. Some followers go to the tomb, claim Jesus is gone.  Chaos.  Followers claim to have sighted Jesus, but in contradictory ways.  No-one's story matches but people claim any little thing they saw must have been Jesus come back from the grave.

 

 

I can honestly see some truth in it.  A prophet with a rather small following pushes authorities too far, gets killed and then his followers try to keep his traditions going after his death.  Over time and the 'telephone game' we wind up with a jumbled story of magic myth and reality.  To me it seems so...classic, I don't know why it isn't obvious to people how this story developed.  It looks exactly like my scenario.  If any of these things had really happened...man.  A zombie outbreak with an earthquake and no-one wrote about it but believers?  Hell, if Jesus had even been as big of a deal in the city as the story makes is sound there probably would be a record of his arrival and death but there isn't.  He was small time.

 

 

(Edit: 1,000 posts!)

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
mellestad wrote:27-31. Some

mellestad wrote:

27-31. Some followers go to the tomb, claim Jesus is gone.  Chaos.  Followers claim to have sighted Jesus, but in contradictory ways.  No-one's story matches but people claim any little thing they saw must have been Jesus come back from the grave.

And that really isn't Elvis' body in the mausoleum.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
mellestad wrote:Great

mellestad wrote:

Great write-up!

 

Your capacity to write on this stuff at length and in depth is always impressive.

 

 

Thanks.

As I have been harrased by many Christians this year it was my way of taking out my frustrations.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.