the loss of god

pm9347
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the loss of god

im concerned that the loss of god in our society is creating a world that will be an terrible place to live. Look at the news everday the worst type of human behavior is is shown , our society is falling apart. now its true our media is the worst at reporting the truth. They are more interested in selling papers , but looking at the issue god has been removed from the basics of the community, and now people have lost the fear of judgement by god . Since they have no one to fear and fear causes guidance , they feel they are free to do whatever they want , killing , divorce , rape , etc. how do athiest maitain a moral system without guidance ? is there a moral code ? does the law become the guidance ? i need some understanding.

 

pat


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 Hi pm9347 ~The concern

 Hi pm9347 ~

The concern that society will fall apart or make for a terrible place to live when there is a loss in a belief of god, is a pretty big claim. 

How did you come up with this idea? How was this claim measured? You state "Look at the news everyday(sic) the worst type of human behavior is (...) shown, our society is falling apart." I would ask that you list the specific behaviors and explain how they are 'worse' than any other behavior this society has been faced with in the past. I would then need to see data indicating the correlation between god belief and 'worsening' behaviors. Please advise which god it is that you claim a lack of belief is leading to our societies demise.

Address these few points and I may feel compelled to try to answer the few questions at the end of your post.

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To suggest that a god is

To suggest that a god is needed for morality is to suggest that morals are completely useless (in this life).  You see of morals are useful then we can derive them based on there effect on society.  No god needed.  I find it disturbing that you would kill, rape, ect... if your house of cards god fearing morality was pulled out from under you.  I think you should turn yourself into a mental institute.

Sounds made up...
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pm9347 wrote:Since they have

pm9347 wrote:

Since they have no one to fear and fear causes guidance , they feel they are free to do whatever they want , killing , divorce , rape , etc. how do athiest maitain a moral system without guidance ? is there a moral code ? does the law become the guidance ? i need some understanding.

 

pat

Murder, rape and all sorts of other bad behavior have been going on for a long time now. Millenia, actually. The only difference now is that we have TV reporting it.

Your analysis is incomplete. You would not only need to correlate a rise in atheism with a rise in crime rates, you would also need to show that atheism had the strongest correlation, and not some other factors.

Also, we do have something people should fear - it's called the legal system. If someone does not fear that the legal system will come down on them if they commit a crime, they have some other issues.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

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"im concerned that the loss

"im concerned that the loss of god in our society"

You can't lose that which never existed.

"Look at the news everday the worst type of human behavior is is shown , our society is falling apart."

With theists at the helm. So remove them, and we'll be much better off.

"Since they have no one to fear and fear causes guidance ,"

Right. That's why there are so many atheists in jail. Oh wait, that's theists. Never mind.

Morality is a construct of humanity that has nothing to do with invisible friends. We had morality before we could make those friends up, and we'll have it after we've rid ourselves of them.

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There is no loss of god,

There is no loss of god, given religions are increasing in size, particularly christianity, faster then atheism.

 

So if you're going to put the blame on anything, put it on religion, assuming you still want to use this childish comparison.


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These days it's the

These days it's the believers of a god that are the most violent at the moment. A society without god, well look towards our scandanavian brothers that have a large society that doesn't believe in god, see how bad it really is there....you will be amazed.

However this kinda reminds me of a friend of mine that kept on going how the 60's were a more peaceful, better times. Of course if he took off his rosy coloured glasses of he would see that in that decade, there are 4 major assassinations in the US alone, JFK, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy. Riots in Chicago, Detriot, Los Angeles, New York, Neward and oakland. Then the vietnam war is starting as well, the bay of pigs attack that was just a slaughter fest. As well that 60 crime and civil unrest rose dramatically during the 60's and has never gone back to pre-60's levels. As well as some church was bombed.

Look in the end, we are what we are, how we embrace that is the difference. We are at a point in time which technology and well reality are conflicting with religion and it's traditions, in more ways than we can imagine. Even more so we have groups of people that would prefer if humanity would abandon all technology and just be a slave to their religious dogmas. But hey we are will move forward as a species, and that causes the old groups fear.


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The vast majority of people

The vast majority of people committing crimes in America are Christians who believe in God.


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"WE"

latincanuck wrote:

 But hey we are will move forward as a species, and that causes the old groups fear.

A major flaw in this opinion is the fact that the author is not a "we". He is not a "species". He is not "moving forward".

 

The title "old groups" is left undefined, but I am sure that no individual in the group is a "group" or an "old group".

 

We are each one of us singular, finite, physical, emotional, social, sexual, imminent, aware creatures walking the paths of our own destiny.

 

We may feel safe in groups and perhaps if we choose to perceive a group as doing something we beleive to be victorious in some way we like to associate ourselves with that, but we each and every one of us, regardless of the seeming potential infinity of genetic reproduction, are left at night, utterly alone with self left to self.

The safety is perceptual and all the "we"'s you can muster will never change that. You remain you, they (sometimes referred to as them) will remain "there" as only you can be and are "here", atleast for now.

 

Atheism depends on the actual existence of this imaginary "we" of which they convince themselves that they are a part, to actually exist as thing unto itself for the structure to hold itself up. Once this matrix fails, which it must as all non-existent things cannot exist actually, the actual individuals are all that remains.

 

When this day comes... and it will... all men will know the actuality of fear. Many a nation has crumbled under the weight of the falling of its false gods. This "we" will fail as sure as the rest.

 

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pm9347 wrote:Look at the

pm9347 wrote:
Look at the news everday the worst type of human behavior is is shown ,

Well.........duh!

pm9347 wrote:
how do athiest maitain a moral system without guidance ?

Sigh....

Okay, let me try something different. pm9347, if you became an atheist, what are some things you would do?

pm9347 wrote:
is there a moral code ?

What's a moral code?

pm9347 wrote:
does the law become the guidance ?

What is a "law?" Why do you need guidance? Why does morality have be obedience to an authority? 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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yeah yeah yeah

We are all unique little snowflakes, (yet another bullshit concept) but we live and identify for the majority of the time as a group, as christians, as jews, as americans as canadians, as democrates as conservatives, as muslims, etc, etc, etc. As I have always stated, individually people are great as a group their assholes and it doesn't really change.

The title OLD GROUPS is undefined because it covers a bunch of groups of people, such as radical islamics, fundamentalist christians, conspiracy groups that believe  that we should abandon technology, extreme orthodox jews, and many other groups. So yes it is left undefined because it's abroad base that I am dealing with here. Every group is comfortable with scientific advancements to a point or some none at all, so I made a blanket statement about a very diverse group. Sorry don't exactly have the time to type down every single group.

How about this any and all groups that are trying or have tried to hinder the scientific advancement of humankind using the rehetoric of their religious dogmas or fears of technology.

Atheism is just a non belief in god, it could be just 1 person in the entire planet that believes in a god(s), and everyone else not to believe in that said god(s) for everyone else to be an atheists. It doesn't require a group of people, it requires a concept, if the concept and idea of god did not exist, atheists label would not exist.

As for that last line, go tell it to some religious folks, bet you can get them to wet their pants. Let me give you a hint, all nations, rise and fall, all empires fall in due time, and things change, the power changes from one nation to another, give enough time and the US will lose it's rank as a power. The nation that had the longest time as an empire and has never been matched is the eyptians, for almost 3000 years. After than, the byzentines was 1100, and after that it's really goes down in the amount of time an empire stays and empire, as technology advances for all cultures it gets hard to remain as the dominate power for very long time.

Your statement is about as meaningful as saying that god will bring down any empire that does not praise him (oh wait the british were christians and their empire didn't last, nor did the roman empire that became a christian nation and gave the rise to christianity....guess god does not like his followers, and the good old US of A isn't in good standing right now and hell they even had nothing but christian presidents)


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It's true that it's in our

It's true that it's in our nature to harm, it's also in our nature to help others.

 

 

But I have yet to see any evidence that religion can over-ride our basic instincts to harm others. Nor have I seen evidence that it can over ride our basic instincts to help others.

 

So your argument here fails considering in order for the loss of religion to be causing the "worst in human behaviour", it would have to over-ride basic instincts.

 

 

 


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pm9347 wrote: Since they

pm9347 wrote:
Since they have no one to fear and fear causes guidance , they feel they are free to do whatever they want , killing , divorce , rape , etc. how do athiest maitain a moral system without guidance ? is there a moral code ? does the law become the guidance ? i need some understanding.

I have no fear of God, on account of his lack of existence, and yet I do not kill or rape.  I have married only once and I am faithful to my wife (actually, atheists have a lower divorce rate than do Christians).  Atheists are significantly under-represented in the American prison population, which I think strongly suggests that belief in God is mostly irrelevant to morality (I can expand on what I mean by that if you want).  I treat people fairly; I'm motivated by self-interest which, for me, includes being compassionate and sympathetic.  I try to enjoy my life while also being an enjoyable part of the lives of others.

I'm an atheist and, yet, I live what most Christians would consider to be a morally good life.  Why is that?  Am I an extraordinarily good person or am I a fairly normal human being?  I think that the latter is more likely. 

You prefer that our society should not be one in which people do terrible things to each other.  Do you think that is because God prompts you to feel that way or do you think it's because you're a fairly normal human being?

I think that humans have a natural tendency toward morality.  I think it is necessary for humans to be that way because we are a social species.  Living in groups is part of the human survival strategy and, in order for that to work, I think it is necessary that most individuals have a tendency toward balancing one's individual needs and desires with some idea of what is good for the group of which one is a part.  Isn't that what morality works out to be about -- balancing what is good for me with what is good for my neighbour?  If I'm happy and my neighbour is happy, I have a good life.

You can see similar tendencies in other social species.  Within a pack of wolves, for example, there is both cooperation and competition, in keeping with certain behavioural tendencies that are natural to wolves.  Their brains and their social interactions aren't as complex as ours, so their moral codes are less complex and less intentionally developed than ours, but I think there is a basic similarity.

Experiments have shown that apes and monkeys and even dogs can tell when they're being cheated and will react by withdrawing cooperation, which I think strongly suggests that having some kind of a sense of right and wrong is natural to many species and I think we can be reasonably confident that it is also natural to humans.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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tr1nity wrote:latincanuck

tr1nity wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

 But hey we are will move forward as a species, and that causes the old groups fear.

A major flaw in this opinion is the fact that the author is not a "we". He is not a "species". He is not "moving forward".

 

The title "old groups" is left undefined, but I am sure that no individual in the group is a "group" or an "old group".

 

We are each one of us singular, finite, physical, emotional, social, sexual, imminent, aware creatures walking the paths of our own destiny.

 

We may feel safe in groups and perhaps if we choose to perceive a group as doing something we beleive to be victorious in some way we like to associate ourselves with that, but we each and every one of us, regardless of the seeming potential infinity of genetic reproduction, are left at night, utterly alone with self left to self.

The safety is perceptual and all the "we"'s you can muster will never change that. You remain you, they (sometimes referred to as them) will remain "there" as only you can be and are "here", atleast for now.

 

Atheism depends on the actual existence of this imaginary "we" of which they convince themselves that they are a part, to actually exist as thing unto itself for the structure to hold itself up. Once this matrix fails, which it must as all non-existent things cannot exist actually, the actual individuals are all that remains.

 

When this day comes... and it will... all men will know the actuality of fear. Many a nation has crumbled under the weight of the falling of its false gods. This "we" will fail as sure as the rest.

 

Was there a point made in here somewhere...?

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

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Falling Empires

latincanuck wrote:

 Let me give you a hint, all nations, rise and fall, all empires fall in due time, and things change, the power changes from one nation to another, give enough time and the US will lose it's rank as a power. The nation that had the longest time as an empire and has never been matched is the eyptians, for almost 3000 years. After than, the byzentines was 1100, and after that it's really goes down in the amount of time an empire stays and empire, as technology advances for all cultures it gets hard to remain as the dominate power for very long time.

 

Why is it that every atheist I talk to salivates over the demise of the U.S.? Just had to get that in at the top of your "falling empires" list eh? That of course is a side conversation.

You concede my point and the point of this discussion in the statement you made. As time has moved on the consolidation of civilization brought on by technology which has fundamentally been the advancement of communication has decreased rather than increased a nations viability as a cohesive unit. This absence of cohesion is, in reality, measured in the blood and suffering of multitudes. Is this what you mean by "moving forward?" 

 

Ultimately though it is not merely the ability to communicate that has brought down civilization after civilization, it has been the enemies of the states increased ability to communicate that has brought them down. 

My point is that a society has a social contract made up of agreements of behaviors based in a particular worldview that itself comes from a common belief about the nature of self. This agreement requires the individual, if they are to be a member of the contract, to hold up their end of the agreement which requires responsibility, which itself must be understood within the context of the worldview that initiated the contract.

The contract itself will be formed within the context of the concept of perceived order meaning that the very nature of the contract will form only as the individuals perceive the need for it to trade chaos for what they obviously believe and further agree together is its absence.

 

So the foundation of this discussion is "what is moral code?" It is the foundations, columns, walls and roof of the social contract which only exist in free societies although all soceities depend on some type of social belief to maintain cohesion even if that belief is primarily fear. 

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geirj wrote:Was there a

geirj wrote:

Was there a point made in here somewhere...?

 

Yes, it is that atheist's still must believe in something larger than themselves in order to maintain social cohesion. The problem is that merely "belief" in something is not sufficient to maintain a civilized society which is all the atheist has making it fundamentally insufficient to drive the creation of a social contract which is the calling card of this website, a "world without God". A brief description why it is insufficient is the "point" of my post.

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pm9347 wrote: they feel

pm9347 wrote:

 they feel they are free to do whatever they want , killing , divorce , rape , etc. how do athiest maitain a moral system without guidance ? is there a moral code ?

What evidence do you have that having a theist belief system prevents crime? Are there more atheists than theists in prison?

pm9347 wrote:

does the law become the guidance ? i need some understanding.

 

The law with punishments is a way to enforce a code of behavior beneficial to the group as a whole. But people will do whatever is convenient and whatever they think they can get away with. No one ever follows a moral code other than do whatever is convenient and pleasurable for yourself, so morality is BS. If we start with this truth, maybe we can design societies that minimize crime and suffering of it's members. If we pretend that people can really be unselfish, compassionate and moral in any absolute way, we can never solve our biggest problems.

And how is theism anything but a self-centered 'morality'? Please an invisible man so he'll give you nice things and let you into heaven. That sounds as hedonistic as anything.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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NoDeity wrote:I'm an atheist

NoDeity wrote:

I'm an atheist and, yet, I live what most Christians would consider to be a morally good life.  Why is that?  Am I an extraordinarily good person or am I a fairly normal human being?  I think that the latter is more likely. 

 

Well that is a rather broad statement. I doubt that "most" Christians would consider you morally good. In fact a true believer knows that you are wicked, reprobate and depraved.

 

You see it's the standards applied externally that determine goodness or lack thereof. These cannot be self applied as self applied standards will always serve the self applying them.

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pm9347 wrote:im concerned

pm9347 wrote:

im concerned that the loss of god in our society is creating a world that will be an terrible place to live.

You mean like Europe ? Yikes.

 


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EXC wrote:And how is theism

EXC wrote:

And how is theism anything but a self-centered 'morality'? Please an invisible man so he'll give you nice things and let you into heaven. That sounds as hedonistic as anything.

The difference of course is that it is true. This "anything" you mention isn't.

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tr1nity wrote: Yes, it is

tr1nity wrote:

 

Yes, it is that atheist's still must believe in something larger than themselves in order to maintain social cohesion.

Are you implying that "something" is God?

 

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

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tr1nity wrote:geirj

tr1nity wrote:

geirj wrote:

Was there a point made in here somewhere...?

 

Yes, it is that atheist's still must believe in something larger than themselves in order to maintain social cohesion. The problem is that merely "belief" in something is not sufficient to maintain a civilized society which is all the atheist has making it fundamentally insufficient to drive the creation of a social contract which is the calling card of this website, a "world without God". A brief description why it is insufficient is the "point" of my post.

There are societies in Europe that have far less belief in God, but nevertheless have arguably more social cohesion the the USA, which is far more religious.

Yes, some dedication to concepts beyond the self is necessary for everyone, and many Christians actually have a far poorer allegiance to the larger society, outside their particular family or belief group, and are a real problem. Religion too easily leads one to concentrate on one's own personal 'salvation', which is a very unhealthy attitude for them and the wider society.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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tr1nity wrote:EXC wrote:And

tr1nity wrote:

EXC wrote:

And how is theism anything but a self-centered 'morality'? Please an invisible man so he'll give you nice things and let you into heaven. That sounds as hedonistic as anything.

The difference of course is that it is true. This "anything" you mention isn't.

But you have no way to actually know that it is true. You only have techniques of self-deception like religious 'faith'. 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Where was I salivating? Did

Where was I salivating? Did i make a rabid statement? Or did I make a statement of fact, given enough time, the US will lose rank as the world's largest powerful nation. That's just fact, 80 years ago it was the UK, 2 world wars later, the US rose as the world leader and a powerful nation. Given globalization of economics and technology, well another nation will rise, as the US loses it's power base and technology to other nations, well it's bound to happen, as every nation that rises makes economical mistakes, those economical mistakes, with the rise of their enemies or the rise of technology in other nations or the rise of more powerful economies in those nations, can and has caused other nations to fall. It has nothing to do with god or false gods. It has everything to do with mistakes and advancement of technology and better economics.

As for the social contract, your right, but that social contract has nothing to do with god per se or any god, they may base their beliefs that their morals come from god, but in reality it doesn't. It comes from the fact that A) We are social creatures and depend on other in our society/family to survive, B) The survivability/well being of that society is directly tied with the majority of society following the same or similar codes of conduct and moral codes. C) That moral codes change and adapt to changes in society. The last 2 are the most important part, if you don't have that, then it can lead to civil unrest, and disrupting a nations harmony.


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BobSpence1 wrote:But you

BobSpence1 wrote:

But you have no way to actually know that it is true. You only have techniques of self-deception like religious 'faith'. 

 

There you go again with those assertions of yours. Ok, once again "no way to know" is a definitive statement of truth that, if true, makes the statement irrelevant as a"a truth" would be knowable if this statement is true. Your statement creates a knowable unknowableness of the truth which is a "knowledge" of the unknowable making it not an unknowable at all but places it firmly in the realm of knowability making this asserted truth claim of yours wrong both if the truth is knowable and if its unknowable which moves us firmly into the realm of nothingness.

 

In fact what was it you were trying to say?

 

 

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latincanuck wrote:they may

latincanuck wrote:

they may base their beliefs that their morals come from god, but in reality it doesn't.

 

Their morals definitely come from their belief in God if they actually "base" their beliefs there. This is actually an all important understanding. We can see what "this belief" actually has created as we live in a world largely defined by people claiming this very thing. Our total current worldview is defined by its precepts. These things are not "natural" in any sense because of the actual nature of the individual which is self to self, for self, by self. This is of course the most base and is forged if you will within the realm of the individuals existence, the social order, or lack therof that acts upon the "I" in each of us. Only the mature and self sufficient individual can truly engage the self which is itself all important as that which motivates the mature individual is that which will form the medium in which future generations will form.

 

Only true and good things will create an environment capable of nurturing the continuation. Continuation is not a natural, unstoppable force, but a fragile one, alien to the universe in which it exists, thwarted at every turn and evidently moving steadily to extinction.

 

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response to pat9347

Pat,  

I wanted to respond, if i may, to a number of specific comments you made in your post. 

"im concerned that the loss of god in our society is creating a world that will be an terrible place to live. Look at the news everday the worst type of human behavior is is shown , our society is falling apart."

 

First, society doesn't create "a world," society is the world.  If what you are trying to say here is that certain individuals in society (i.e., atheists, non believers) are "creating" a terrible world to live in, I beg to differ.  Atheists such as myself have no lobbyists promoting our political agenda in Washington.  We have no real unifying organizational body which represents us--because we are all very different--the sole common denominator among us being that we value critical and rational thought above superstition and irrational, unsubstantiated faith.  Our society is, for the most part, made up of theists like yourself.  You cannot attribute whatever "terrible" world it is you're referring to to atheism.  That's absurd.

 

"but looking at the issue god has been removed from the basics of the community, and now people have lost the fear of judgement by god . Since they have no one to fear and fear causes guidance , they feel they are free to do whatever they want , killing , divorce , rape , etc. how do athiest maitain a moral system without guidance ? is there a moral code ? does the law become the guidance ? i need some understanding."

 

What struck me as most interesting about your post the first time I read it, was this statement specifically:

 

"now people have lost the fear of judgement by god . Since they have no one to fear and fear causes guidance" 

 

Fear causes guidance? What does that even mean?  I'm going to try and identify your meaning here, which is I'd expect, that people who are afraid of god's judgement are more "religious," or moral.  While that may be true (although I've not seen any data on this either way), is that REALLY the argument you want to make?  That this fear of eternal damnation is the only reason that man behaves in a civilized manner at all?  That's simply not true, not for myself, anyway--and not for any atheists I know.  All of whom are highly ethical and civic-minded people, none of whom are doing so because they're convinced they're being watched by some sadistic Santa Claus in the sky.

 

Thanks for your post, I appreciate your sincerity and your honesty....

 


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Unhealthy

BobSpence1 wrote:

 Religion too easily leads one to concentrate on one's own personal 'salvation', which is a very unhealthy attitude for them and the wider society.

 

But what if they believe they are saved and as a result good things come from them that they further attribute to their salvation. Certainly this broad statement of yours does not include thinking of the positives of belief. To call it "unhealthy" without some study to support such a statement is rather unsubstantiated wouldn't you say. Rather broad but shallow and intentionally so.

You see you "desire" that to be true because that's what you said you "think". Of course it is not true. I have yet to find someone whose life has not improved as a result of faith. That's without exception an actual 0. An individuals experience certainly can't be expected to always override anothers. Evil things occurring do not make goodness irrelevant or "unhealthy".

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tr1nity wrote:BobSpence1

tr1nity wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

But you have no way to actually know that it is true. You only have techniques of self-deception like religious 'faith'. 

 

There you go again with those assertions of yours. Ok, once again "no way to know" is a definitive statement of truth that, if true, makes the statement irrelevant as a"a truth" would be knowable if this statement is true. Your statement creates a knowable unknowableness of the truth which is a "knowledge" of the unknowable making it not an unknowable at all but places it firmly in the realm of knowability making this asserted truth claim of yours wrong both if the truth is knowable and if its unknowable which moves us firmly into the realm of nothingness.

In fact what was it you were trying to say?

Negative assertions of that kind can be treated as as close to certainty as anything could be. Statement such as "most human 'knowledge' cannot be proven with 100% certainty" is hardly to be contested.

It should be easy for you to refute me - so what makes you think your belief is true?

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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tr1nity wrote:BobSpence1

tr1nity wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

 Religion too easily leads one to concentrate on one's own personal 'salvation', which is a very unhealthy attitude for them and the wider society.

 

But what if they believe they are saved and as a result good things come from them that they further attribute to their salvation. Certainly this broad statement of yours does not include thinking of the positives of belief. To call it "unhealthy" without some study to support such a statement is rather unsubstantiated wouldn't you say. Rather broad but shallow and intentionally so.

You see you "desire" that to be true because that's what you said you "think". Of course it is not true. I have yet to find someone whose life has not improved as a result of faith. That's without exception an actual 0. An individuals experience certainly can't be expected to always override anothers. Evil things occurring do not make goodness irrelevant or "unhealthy".

No I am basing those statements on personal observation and following many relevant studies, comparing different societies, coupled with the many reported examples of anti-social behavior (killing others) in the name of their beliefs, which is extremely rare as a personal justification for such behaviour for non-believers.

Many, many death-threats phoned into many Atheist organisations at the slightest provocation.

It is unhealthy for individuals to concentrate excessively on their personal fate at the expense of wider society. Period. You show me why it isn't.

Many may well get away with it, if they never come up against a situation where there beliefs conflict with the demands of society.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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geirj wrote:Are you implying

geirj wrote:

Are you implying that "something" is God?

 

 

No implication, it was a statement of fact. The "we" referred to in that post, I pointed out, does not actually exist. If a society serves a non-existent thing, it too will cease to exist.

 

The post by latincanuk referred to a "we" and textualized the concept of this "we" "moving forward" which itself is left as anomolous as the "we" is.

 

The we is a perception, it is not real and further it cannot do anything including move forward, backward, turn upside down... you know any of that because only real things can actually do such things and here only certain things that are real can do those things as being real alone is not sufficient, other attributes must also exist.

 

Fundamentally I would argue that within the context of the reality we are in, the nature of it, in its awsome totality, somehow this "truth" surfaces again and again. We, as in ourselves collectively NEED something more than ourselves to fulfill that which we can identify, within the boundries of our nature, makes us "healthy". It is good to believe in things that give us hope however far afield they are from that which actually can give us hope as the two are utterly unrelated. We see cohesion, however brief, occur everywhere that a social commonality of belief in the greater whole exists.

Amazingly, 1 belief happens to be on top...interesting.

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tr1nity wrote:latincanuck

tr1nity wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

they may base their beliefs that their morals come from god, but in reality it doesn't.

 

Their morals definitely come from their belief in God if they actually "base" their beliefs there. This is actually an all important understanding. We can see what "this belief" actually has created as we live in a world largely defined by people claiming this very thing. Our total current worldview is defined by its precepts. These things are not "natural" in any sense because of the actual nature of the individual which is self to self, for self, by self. This is of course the most base and is forged if you will within the realm of the individuals existence, the social order, or lack therof that acts upon the "I" in each of us. Only the mature and self sufficient individual can truly engage the self which is itself all important as that which motivates the mature individual is that which will form the medium in which future generations will form.

 

Only true and good things will create an environment capable of nurturing the continuation. Continuation is not a natural, unstoppable force, but a fragile one, alien to the universe in which it exists, thwarted at every turn and evidently moving steadily to extinction.

 

hmm like I said they may believe it comes from god but it doesn't, it's their belief, that's not reality of where their morals comes from. those are 2 distinct things. I can believe that the morals come from any deities, heck the IPU works, can you prove that god or the IPU made morals and that all morals choices and all moral decisions come from god or the IPU?

Now my statement is still true, they can believe their morals come from god, but that's not true or inline with reality. It just a belief with not evidence to back up their claims as there is ZERO evidence that god exists. There is no way to prove that morals come from god either. The reality is god does not give us morals.


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BobSpence1 wrote:Many may

BobSpence1 wrote:

Many may well get away with it, if they never come up against a situation where there beliefs conflict with the demands of society.

 

The beauty is that The Truth never conflicts with the actual demands of  society. It's the measuring of the real demands, pursuing effort to know them completely or the failure to do so that undoes it.

 

You see the Huns I believe followed their leader with a psychotic religious fervor that brought them great victory over the Roman empire, but then Atilla died right? Well then it was over. The failure was both the peoples faith matrix and in this case the object of the faith, Atilla himself. The people were "grown" in a garden that taught certain things, it even taught things detrimental to its survivability, things that they fervently believed were true that were utterly meaningless and even caustic to the fundamental cause of their initial social contract. Atilla, coming from within this structure could consume what was there ,the Roman empire, but could not envision permanent solutions to the problems of his people. In fact he was so limited that destruction alone was his mastery, consumption of the existant was his road. That society could do nothing but fail as it did because of the ignorance of both the peoples and their leaders understanding of the real "True" demands of their society.

 

Of course the truest demand of all societies is the demand from each of us, that is to persist... to continue... to live.

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Ah the classic 'Religion is

Ah the classic 'Religion is good for society" vs "Religion is bad for society".

 

What either side fails to realize of course is that there simply is not enough data out there. There simply aren't enough non-religious nations to even begin to study this academically. Even if we have a few societies that aren't religious, that just leaves the rest open to cherry picking when it comes to nations that are religious seeing how there are so many of them and so few non-religious.

 

 

So they just rely on anecdotes and faulty [at best] logic.

 

 

 

They both think that something is unique [either good or bad] to religion

 

The fact of the matter is that there is no good a Theist can do that an atheist can't, and there's no bad a Theist can do that an atheist can't.

 

 

 

 

 


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tr1nity wrote:BobSpence1

tr1nity wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

But you have no way to actually know that it is true. You only have techniques of self-deception like religious 'faith'. 

 

There you go again with those assertions of yours. Ok, once again "no way to know" is a definitive statement of truth that, if true, makes the statement irrelevant as a"a truth" would be knowable if this statement is true. Your statement creates a knowable unknowableness of the truth which is a "knowledge" of the unknowable making it not an unknowable at all but places it firmly in the realm of knowability making this asserted truth claim of yours wrong both if the truth is knowable and if its unknowable which moves us firmly into the realm of nothingness.

In fact what was it you were trying to say? 

My statement does not depend in any way on the actual 'truth' of the assertion referred to , such as that "God exists".

EVEN if God actually exists, that does not make it provable that he does. Any demonstration that could be presented to us would be indistinguishable by us from the manifestations of a very advanced but non-supernatural alien or aliens. Actual infinite aspects of such an entity are never going to be provable to our finite perceptions. 

It is on arguments such as that that my statement is ultimately based.

It is time for you to support your assertion that your God belief is 'true'.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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latincanuck wrote:The

latincanuck wrote:

The reality is god does not give us morals.

As I've pointed out in the above posts to others, that statement is self conflicting or something like that. It has no meaning. It breaks down under the weight of your premise. You say we cannot know but then you come up with knowledge. It's circular reasoning spinning around your own will for it to be so.

Once again the evidence is overwhelming for God's ACTUALITY. Gathering this together is not a problem, the problem is that you ignore it by creating layers of circular nonsense around the desire itself. You WILL not see it because you choose not to, not because it's not there.

 

The existence of God is self evident truth. It is only your definitions of knowledge that slip and slide around the obvious.

 

"Once you've removed the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, is the truth"

Sherlock Holmes

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tr1nity wrote:geirj

tr1nity wrote:

geirj wrote:

Are you implying that "something" is God?

 

 

The we is a perception, it is not real and further it cannot do anything including move forward, backward, turn upside down... you know any of that because only real things can actually do such things and here only certain things that are real can do those things as being real alone is not sufficient, other attributes must also exist.

 

Fundamentally I would argue that within the context of the reality we are in, the nature of it, in its awsome totality, somehow this "truth" surfaces again and again. We, as in ourselves collectively NEED something more than ourselves to fulfill that which we can identify, within the boundries of our nature, makes us "healthy". It is good to believe in things that give us hope however far afield they are from that which actually can give us hope as the two are utterly unrelated. We see cohesion, however brief, occur everywhere that a social commonality of belief in the greater whole exists.

Amazingly, 1 belief happens to be on top...interesting.

I have no idea what the heck you're talking about. It must be your cunning use of words in quotation marks that's throwing me.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


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tr1nity wrote:latincanuck

tr1nity wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

The reality is god does not give us morals.

As I've pointed out in the above posts to others, that statement is self conflicting or something like that. It has no meaning. It breaks down under the weight of your premise. You say we cannot know but then you come up with knowledge. It's circular reasoning spinning around your own will for it to be so.

Once again the evidence is overwhelming for God's ACTUALITY. Gathering this together is not a problem, the problem is that you ignore it by creating layers of circular nonsense around the desire itself. You WILL not see it because you choose not to, not because it's not there.

 

The existence of God is self evident truth. It is only your definitions of knowledge that slip and slide around the obvious.

 

"Once you've removed the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, is the truth"

Sherlock Holmes

It is most definitely NOT a self-evident truth. What is your justification for this statement?

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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It is amusing to me to

It is amusing to me to notice that, in order to utilize that God given morality you claim, we have to not act like your God.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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BobSpence1 wrote:tr1nity

tr1nity wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

The reality is god does not give us morals.

As I've pointed out in the above posts to others, that statement is self conflicting or something like that. It has no meaning. It breaks down under the weight of your premise. You say we cannot know but then you come up with knowledge. It's circular reasoning spinning around your own will for it to be so.

Once again the evidence is overwhelming for God's ACTUALITY. Gathering this together is not a problem, the problem is that you ignore it by creating layers of circular nonsense around the desire itself. You WILL not see it because you choose not to, not because it's not there. 

The existence of God is self evident truth. It is only your definitions of knowledge that slip and slide around the obvious.

"Once you've removed the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, is the truth"

Sherlock Holmes

It is most definitely NOT a self-evident truth. What is your justification for this statement? Still waiting for some support for your naked assertions. I have endeavoured to support mine.

It may be 'self-evident' to you, but it absolutely not so to me.

The very opposite is true. Everyday I observe or read or hear about events and observations which make the very idea that anything resembling the Christian (or any other vaguely similar entity) actually existed seem to me to be the height of absurdity.

The Sherlock Holmes statement overstates the reality, in that it assumes we are capable of conceiving all possible explanations for something. Remember, that was written by a guy who was fooled into believing in fairies...

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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What beautiful logic from you

 

Tr1nity. And your handle is really clever, too.

There's something about that old staple of the believer - that the existence of god is obvious and we simply choose not to believe. You apply no circular nonsensical logic here.

Then there's the original OP's little gem. That the unbeliever seeks no more than murder, rape and endless sex and depravity. This might be something that applied to theists before their conversion

but don't go looking at us through your pin-hole morality.

I also love your swipe at some earlier poster, suggesting that the believer would think them immoral and depraved. Look - the feeling is certainly mutual. You worship a monster who plans the eternal torment

of the bulk of the planet's population is his pathetic quest to 'be friends'. It's obvious your pea-like brain contains insufficient empathy to really own what this means. Have your ever been seriously beaten? I think not.

Any atheist on this site brave enough to withstand an upbringing salted with your gun-to-the-head doctrine is worth ten of you, Tr1nity.

Now you've come out with "The existence of god is self evident truth" why not deliver us the self evident proof that exists outside your own head. Then explain to us exactly what the holy ghost is.

Finally, remember this. You lot have done nothing more than trademark the core values of humanity - it was we who invented you, not the other way around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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BobSpence1 wrote:It is time

BobSpence1 wrote:

It is time for you to support your assertion that your God belief is 'true'.

 

He exists because He must. The existence of this reality we are co-existing in absolutely depends upon it as sure as I depend on my next breath. This social order within the U.S.A. now comes from the mind of God as written in the Bible. It comes from no other. Life, the life of a society and the structure of interface with all other societies, including the strength of this one to maintain and even restrain the others, all comes from exactly one place. The ideas from this book have placed this planet at our mercy, WE are definitively its masters because of one thing.

 

I would argue that this one TRUTH is one proof that supports my position. Like I said it is self evident truth. History is full of societies attempting to follow other truths, we know this only because we dig up the graves of their long dead.

If my existence comes from within it and I am true then that from which I came is true also. Regardless of the perversity of the social contract that I am placed in, the things that guided my parents to bring me about and maintain me to the present are true and my existence is the evidence of that existent truth. As it does exist, and is integral to life itself , without which life could not exist then it is no less alive than the life it preserves. The existence of life is evidence of its life.

You build the ladder and it keeps climbing... up.

 

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To think I thought I was dealing with a rational person

 

tr1nity wrote:

This social order within the U.S.A. now comes from the mind of God as written in the Bible. It comes from no other. Life, the life of a society and the structure of interface with all other societies, including the strength of this one to maintain and even restrain the others, all comes from exactly one place. The ideas from this book have placed this planet at our mercy, WE are definitively its masters because of one thing.

 

Your boat is sinking Tr1nity. You might as well go get your floaties on.

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote: Any

Atheistextremist wrote:

 Any atheist on this site brave enough to withstand an upbringing salted with your gun-to-the-head doctrine is worth ten of you, Tr1nity 

 

The visual I get from that statement is really cool. I don't know maybe it would've been nice if some prophet or something had ran into the to top floor of the trade center earlier that morning with a gun ordering all the occupants out.

I'm not sure that strength of will to stay in their seats would make them worth more. The clock was ticking that morning, so it does now.

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tr1nity wrote:BobSpence1

tr1nity wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

It is time for you to support your assertion that your God belief is 'true'.

 

He exists because He must. The existence of this reality we are co-existing in absolutely depends upon it as sure as I depend on my next breath. This social order within the U.S.A. now comes from the mind of God as written in the Bible. It comes from no other. Life, the life of a society and the structure of interface with all other societies, including the strength of this one to maintain and even restrain the others, all comes from exactly one place. The ideas from this book have placed this planet at our mercy, WE are definitively its masters because of one thing.

 

I would argue that this one TRUTH is one proof that supports my position. Like I said it is self evident truth. History is full of societies attempting to follow other truths, we know this only because we dig up the graves of their long dead.

If my existence comes from within it and I am true then that from which I came is true also. Regardless of the perversity of the social contract that I am placed in, the things that guided my parents to bring me about and maintain me to the present are true and my existence is the evidence of that existent truth. As it does exist, and is integral to life itself , without which life could not exist then it is no less alive than the life it preserves. The existence of life is evidence of its life.

You build the ladder and it keeps climbing... up.

So nothing but naked assertion huh?

"He exists because He must".

And you dismiss my arguments??

You are insane.

Any of those earlier civilizations in their prime could have asserted exactly the same thing. Many of them lasted longer than the current 'Western Civilization', if that is what you are referring to.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 Your boat is sinking Tr1nity. You might as well go get your floaties on.

 

 

Care to justify that statement... Admittedly I covered alot of ground so fine, lets focus it a bit. Your turn.

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BobSpence1 wrote:"He exists

BobSpence1 wrote:

"He exists because He must".

And you dismiss my arguments??

You are insane.

 

Well I did have some other words in that post to attempt to support the "must exist" assertion. Certainly calling it naked is ever so slightly disingenuous. Complete, no not at all.

As it stands I leave it at this, life cannot exist at all if no truth existed. The truth that makes and nurtures life is as alive as the life it maintains and nurtures for it is inseparable. Here we are getting into it. The very nature of the reality in which we live, including the complexity of the life that is actually it incarnate makes up the traits of it. This is true, once again, because they are inseparable from each other, the flesh is the reflection of its acuality.

Simply put, it must be for I am.

Now we have a few steps to go to get to Christianity, but the steps are there. The doubt of God's existence is actually the thing that remains without an evidentiary reason for its existence. This was the foundation of my initial posts to you, to attack your reasoning why God isn't or God can't ect. The fact is that you have no reason to doubt God's existence and plenty of reasons to believe. The nature of nature does not allow ignorance.

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tr1nity wrote:Like I said it

tr1nity wrote:
Like I said it is self evident truth.

That's wonderful....... 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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tr1nity wrote:Certainly

tr1nity wrote:
Certainly calling it naked is ever so slightly disingenuous.

Then justify it. Provide your evidence.

Quote:
As it stands I leave it at this, life cannot exist at all if no truth existed. The truth that makes and nurtures life is as alive as the life it maintains and nurtures for it is inseparable. Here we are getting into it. The very nature of the reality in which we live, including the complexity of the life that is actually it incarnate makes up the traits of it. This is true, once again, because they are inseparable from each other, the flesh is the reflection of its acuality.

What is "truth?" Why can't life exist if there is no "truth?" What is the "nature of the reality in which we live?" How is it "incarnate?" How is the flesh the "reflection" of its "actuality?" What is a "reflection?" What is its "actuality?"

Quote:
Simply put, it must be for I am.

Um, yeah, this is called a non sequitur.

Quote:
The fact is that you have no reason to doubt God's existence and plenty of reasons to believe.

Try this reason. No evidence.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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BobSpence1 wrote:Any of

BobSpence1 wrote:

Any of those earlier civilizations in their prime could have asserted exactly the same thing. Many of them lasted longer than the current 'Western Civilization', if that is what you are referring to.

 

Well I was talking about the nature of life and the truths that absolutley MUST be acted upon in order for it to come into existence, grow strong and persist. The absence of these truths='s the absence of life. These truths are fundamental to the nature of well nature itself and stand as the ultimate guide within the context of actual reality that they, like us existed in.

If you ignore fundamental truth there is no life, if you surround recognized fundamental truth with untruth, you degrade nurture and persistance. The nature and interference of these social untruths pressed upon life will degrade these two points to the removal of it entirely, you can increase and decrease odds of perceived healthy persistence basically.

They could thank valhalla for giving them life, but if valhalla orders them to war all the time well this doesn't, due to persistent attrition, build the foundation of a persistent and healthy society, get that? Mass death caused by the persistent policies of a society do not promote its existence which is defined solely by its persistence. Existence is some level of persistence regardless of length.

 

Really though we are talking about "why life?" In other words why should the inseperable nature of life and truth mean anything at all. Well it means something because my life is I and I matter to me, therefore it matters. Proof number umm, not really keeping count.

 

 

 

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tr1nity
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butterbattle wrote:What is

butterbattle wrote:

What is "truth?" Why can't life exist if there is no "truth?"

umm, certain procedures must be followed to conceive and raise a child. The absence of following these procedures makes life absent. Is this not true? Further certain "spiritual" feelings MUST be acted on in specific ways to conceive and nurture a child. It is complex, true, but it does exist. The nature of nature makes the truth true or existent. It's existence "persists" even now. Our indiidual persistent existence defines or reflects the nature of the truth that made us so.

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