Devastating Responses for Creationist Twits

zothique
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Devastating Responses for Creationist Twits

In arguing down ignorant creationists, I've noticed that the vast majority of their arguments fall into a very few categories.  There are perhaps six of them.  There are doubtless more than this, but the run of the mill ignorant creationist is only parroting what it perceives as good arguments.  These are going to be warmed-over Hovind, possibly even Ray Comfort.  The challenge sometimes lies in pigeonholing the argument correctly so that you can deliver the appropriate devastating response.

Note that there is no possible argument that christains can make which holds up.  They simply haven't got any, and ultimately, as much as they would like to prevaricate, their pathetic whimperings wither away in the face of overwhelming physical proof.

Some arguments:

* Pascal's Wager.  Even the real idiots come up with this one, and in fact it seems relatively common among them.  The answer to this is to simply ask them what happens if THEY are wrong about Poseidon.  By making this argument, they trap themselves in a very bad spot: there are tens of thousands of little gods and legends, so their possibility of being right is statistically tiny.

Another response is to point out the fact that they are engaging in fear tactics.  Point out that you don't believe in their little hippie god any more than you believe in unicorns.  Ask them if they believe in vampires, or if they think vampires are silly.  Tell them that the reason they don't believe in unicorns and vampires is because there is no physical evidence, no shred of proof, which is precisely why religion is stupid.

 

* Argument from Superior Numbers:  There are many, many christians.  Therefore they must be right.  Right?

Wrong.  This argument doesn't hold any water at all, for obvious reasons.  Were they right that the world was flat?  Were they right to burn witches at the stake?  Are the pedophile priests right, because there appear to be more of them than non-pedophile priests?  Are catholics right in Rome and Morons right in Provo, Utah?  Does this work by local numerical superiority, and if so, are atheists right in Sweden and Norway?

Could Varg Vikernes sometimes be right?

* Argument from Morality:  There can be no morality without religion, they'll claim.  The answer to this is to simply ask them if they need an imaginary friend to be afraid of to prevent them from killing.  Point out how much this frightens you, and that you don't rape and murder even though you DON'T have an imaginary friend.  Point out how despicable it is that the christian is implying that he would murder without the threat of hell.

What the hell kind of morality is that?

* Argument from Utilitarianism:  It's good to believe in christ because of heaven, or possibly because of TEH AWESOMENESS we get on earth from feeling god's love.  They will often try to guilt-trip you by implying that it's mean to steal peoples' faith away.  The counter-argument to these canards is to simply ask if it's better to believe in Santa Claus.  Or that you have a billion dollars in the bank.  Could you just believe that you are wildly wealthy?  Wouldn't you be happy? 

Problem is, a person can't just adopt a belief in something.  And rational people don't believe things with zero evidence.

* Argument from selective skepticism:  They are much, MUCH too sharp in the head to be deceived by any of this science nonsense.  Evolution is a common one, and there are really too many responses to this (billions upon billions).  Another one is carbon dating, or some obscure point about some backwater of quantum physics or something that the christian has read the wikipedia article on and thinks he's discovered something profound.

Don't be baited.  Point out that they are now trying to assail physics, or geology, or whatever, and that all these fields support each other.  Point out that if they have some new information about how physics is wrong, they should be presenting papers at the National Academy of Science so that they can get the grant money and give it to starving kids in Africa. 

But most importantly, point out that they are operating under a double standard of proof.  THEY ARE THE ONES advancing a collection of some of the most ridiculous propositions ever-- miracles, virgin births, little raped jesus and the Talking Snake. 

Since they refuse to offer any evidence whatsoever for any of this pile of stinking bullshit, and have been unable to obtain any for TWO THOUSAND YEARS, they have no leg to stand on WHATSOEVER when trying to assail fields of science for which there is massive and overwhelming evidence.

Since these dumbfucks will not see reason, just refuse to argue the subject of science at all.  Point out that it has physical evidence for every single point that it makes, and that until they can provide physical evidence for THEIR ridiculous beliefs, they have no business trying to be skeptical about anything at all.

Point out that they belong under lock and key in mental institutions with the other schizophrenics who hear voices.

I'm interested in hearing about any other archetypal arguments that people run into, and devastating responses for them.

 


enzoconti
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Got it covered

Looks like you've covered all there is. However I really think the "SHOW ME THE MONEY" argument from atheists is all we need,

anything else is engaging in discourse with people who have learned how to accept irrational and illogical conclusions.

 

 

THEY WILL DRIVE YOU NUTZ!!!

 

 

 


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Thanks for showing up Zo,

Thanks for showing up Zo, and yeah I do, I try. That Lee Strobel is another famous religious moron.


jmm
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zothique wrote:In arguing

zothique wrote:

In arguing down ignorant creationists, I've noticed that the vast majority of their arguments fall into a very few categories.  There are perhaps six of them.  There are doubtless more than this, but the run of the mill ignorant creationist is only parroting what it perceives as good arguments.  These are going to be warmed-over Hovind, possibly even Ray Comfort.  The challenge sometimes lies in pigeonholing the argument correctly so that you can deliver the appropriate devastating response.

Comedy gold. 

Protip:  don't quit your dayjob. 


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"Protip:  don't quit your

"Protip:  don't quit your dayjob. "

What are you looking for, respect from me?  I don't view creationists as human.  Humans live in the real world and creationists live in a fear-ridden fantasy.  Their personalities are therefore not real but synthetic, built up by years of systematic lies and brainwashing.


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zothique wrote:"Protip: 

zothique wrote:

"Protip:  don't quit your dayjob. "

What are you looking for, respect from me?  I don't view creationists as human.  Humans live in the real world and creationists live in a fear-ridden fantasy.  Their personalities are therefore not real but synthetic, built up by years of systematic lies and brainwashing.

You sound like a Ron Paul supporter. 

So how's the tinfoil industry?  Booming?


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Wow, you have an inferiority

Wow, you have an inferiority complex.  You sound like a Ted Haggard supporter.

Tinfoil industry?  You tell me, you're the expert in irrational fears.  How's that bible of yours doing? 

How about we just agree that your bible is full of lies, that your god is not real, that your jesus was a raving and deluded madman if he ever existed, and that you've been taken in by his lies to such an extent that that you'd actually go out to argue in favor of your pile of irrational bullshit.


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I recommend ignoring jmm. 

I recommend ignoring jmm.  An exchange with that character is pointless at best.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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First of all, you don't even

First of all, you don't even know if jmm is christian so shut up, second, the way you act is much like most of the creationists we get here: immature, annoying and jumping into conclusions. So, as a word of advice, don't be on the offense without an actual reason and don't asume that all theists are irratinal creationists.


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on pascals wager

on pascals wager, which was mentioned, i prefer to counter with what is called "the atheists wager". it goes sumthing like this;

it doesent matter whether or not im right. if i am wrong, and there is an all loving god, he will judge me on my actions toward my fellow man. if i am right, then i will leave a legacy loved and remembered by all around me. if i am wrong, but the god does judge me on how much i worship him, well, i wouldnt want to have to spend eternity with him anyways.

all hail the great and powerful sluffywinks.


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jmm wrote:Comedy gold.

jmm wrote:
Comedy gold. Protip: don't quit your dayjob.

zothique wrote:
How about we just agree that your bible is full of lies, that your god is not real, that your jesus was a raving and deluded madman if he ever existed, and that you've been taken in by his lies to such an extent that that you'd actually go out to argue in favor of your pile of irrational bullshit.

It's too easy to get mad at stupid people. I get angry all the time. What kind of a productive debate can you conduct when the other person just says, "I know the Bible is true because it's the word of God?"

But, we should always try to think logically and to keep from jumping to conclusions, because, well, we're supposed to be the rational ones. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Jmm has owned up to

Jmm has owned up to Christianity several times, although he believes a softer gentler Christianity than Ted Haggart.  In general, jmm just likes to throw in a jab every once in a while.  Back in the day, he tried rational discussion and found himself not up to the task.  These days, he lurks around hoping for an atheist who will engage him in something other than a logical discussion.

Oh, and by the way, to the OP, I take exception to the idea of not thinking of christians or creationists as human.  The science of humanity is my field of interest, and I can assure you that they're quite human.  In fact, they're very good at doing exactly what you're doing -- creating us-them dichotomies so they don't have to think of their opponents as humans.  By holding firm to the belief that they are morally superior, supernaturally favored, and more enlightened with the truth than those evil satan worshiping, drug using, all black wearing suicidal atheists, they are able to avoid having to think of us as their neighbors and countrymen.  In the same way, by thinking of creationists as too stupid to deserve respect as human beings, you're able to justify treating them as less than human.

Gee... by my estimation, it looks like everybody involved is the same species.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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zothique
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Quote:First of all, you

Quote:
First of all, you don't even know if jmm is christian so shut up, second, the way you act is much like most of the creationists we get here: immature, annoying and jumping into conclusions. So, as a word of advice, don't be on the offense without an actual reason and don't asume that all theists are irratinal creationists.

And you think I care about what you think precisely why?

I've spent my life treating idiot, irrational theists with kid gloves.  I'm not doing it any more.  I'm telling them, to their faces wherever possible, precisely what I think of them and their ridiculous beliefs.

If you have a problem with that, you know where to stick it.  I'm going to continue doing exactly what I am doing, and if any idiot believers in talking snakes are offended, I will know that I am doing the right thing and so I will redouble my efforts.  Enough is enough.

 

 


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Hambydammit wrote:Jmm has

Hambydammit wrote:

Jmm has owned up to Christianity several times, although he believes a softer gentler Christianity than Ted Haggart.  In general, jmm just likes to throw in a jab every once in a while.  Back in the day, he tried rational discussion and found himself not up to the task.  These days, he lurks around hoping for an atheist who will engage him in something other than a logical discussion.

I've actually just been very busy with grad school and work.  I try to read as many posts as I can because there are lots of good writers here, but I rarely have the time or energy to take part in full-blown discussions anymore.  So, I've relegated myself to bad humor and sports talk. 

I don't know if I'd call my Christianity soft or gentle, as it's been quite a rough ride for me.  I'm not evangelical though, so I suppose it's soft and gentle in the sense that I don't really care what other people do/believe as long as people's rights aren't being violated.  You make me sound like high-priced toilet paper (which may not be inaccurate, all things considered). 


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I think the general

I think the general concensus here, zothique, is that you should take some sort of anti-hypertensive medication. It's not that anyone here disagrees with the notion that theism, specifically the religious variety, is ridiculous, creationism especially so, and should be actively countered. But your hotheaded,crude and virulent statements will be looked at in the same manner as any other rant. Here, we prefer discussion to be more coolheaded. Coolheadeded discussion, after all, is a reasonable indicator of a discussion between rational minds.  There is, after all, no dichotomy of "using kid gloves" and "breathing fire". You can still maintain active and well-founded opposition toward the absurdity of religion while maintaining a levelheaded demeanor. I'm a biologist, so I'm just as opposed to creationism as you are, and just as ready to defend rationalism in the face of absurdity. Be assured also that I drip contempt for religion. But I try to maintain a stoic tone. You, on the other hand, are adopting the fire-breathing approach, which is not a good indicator of rationality.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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 Umm DG, I am guilty too,

 Umm DG, I am guilty too, as ZOTHIQUE, as I cuss back to the oppression of the religious murdering fundy dogmist authoritarians, as a I am feed up, and lose my nice guy cool, as atheist buddha jesus called peter satan and the church people a bunch of hypocrites and worse. Fuck You Jerry Falwel and yours .... and thanks prophet George Carlin for cussing too .... hey, but I am a pacifist, but I will kill you in the name of love of life and freedom, so "Don't Tread on Me" ..... and how many innocent recently murdered in Iraq by who, and why? WTF .... get pissed please please .... LOUDER.

 


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The title of this thread is

The title of this thread is a bit misleading, since not all Christians, in fact I would go be so bold as to state that not even most Christians are creationists.  The OP talks about reponding to "creationist twits" and then goes on to argue against theism in general.  I, a Christian "non-creationist" feel like I'm not getting my fair share of his venom.  WAAAAAH!

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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It's ok, deludedgod argued

It's ok, deludedgod argued it down. 


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I actually have to agree

I actually have to agree with totus here: The title said it was for creationists while the post was towards theists. Not the same. I suppose it's possible even to be a non-theistic creationist in some way (Earth was created by aliens) however, who made the aliens? (of course theism has the same problem. )

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zothique
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Quote:The OP talks about

Quote:
The OP talks about reponding to "creationist twits" and then goes on to argue against theism in general.  I, a Christian "non-creationist" feel like I'm not getting my fair share of his venom.

Oh, theism in general is idiotic.  It's a mental illness transmitted from parent to child.  By telling the child contradictory lies about the world, and by teaching the child that it MUST suspend rational thought with regards to theology, the parents and church elders build up a knot of cognitive dissonance in the child's mind. 

Cognitive dissonance is the reason why christians go through such laughable contortions in their futile, flailing attempts to argue that their imaginary friends are real.  Since their arguments are fundamentally not based on any sort of evidence, they are doomed to be beaten down again and again by those who demand extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims.

 


totus_tuus
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zothique wrote:Oh, theism in

zothique wrote:
Oh, theism in general is idiotic.  It's a mental illness transmitted from parent to child.  By telling the child contradictory lies about the world, and by teaching the child that it MUST suspend rational thought with regards to theology, the parents and church elders build up a knot of cognitive dissonance in the child's mind. 

Cognitive dissonance is the reason why christians go through such laughable contortions in their futile, flailing attempts to argue that their imaginary friends are real.  Since their arguments are fundamentally not based on any sort of evidence, they are doomed to be beaten down again and again by those who demand extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims.

Thanks, zothique.  Perhaps you could ask a moderator to edit the title of the thread to "theist twits" in the interest of fairness to non-creationist theists.  I almost skipped reading your thread since I loath the literal creationist crowd myself.

I must also extend my thanks for the mental illness diagnosis.  Can you, perhaps, provide me witha DSM reference for tis illness so that I can apply for disability benefits?  I just want what's mine.  With my theistic brood of kids I oughta get quite a bundle from Uncle.

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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You get disability benefits

You get disability benefits for having a mental illness in the US?  Ha... who knew!?

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


totus_tuus
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Thomathy wrote:You get

Thomathy wrote:

You get disability benefits for having a mental illness in the US?  Ha... who knew!?

Oh yeah.  A good friend of mine is a howling schizophrenic who hates his medication and has collected disability benefits for quite a while.  He wanders from friend to friend staying with each for a while beforee wandering off.  He's a guest here a coupla times a year.  Quite a poet though.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Mhmm... and no universal

Mhmm... and no universal health care?  Fascinating system.  I somehow doubt that anyone views theism as a mental illness on par with something like schizophrenia though.  Depression is certainly not treated as such.  And I'll remind you that the DSM can hardly be considered a proper authority on mental illness, especially considering the lack of scientific rigour applied to the description, diagnosis and treatment prescribed for some illnesses.  I recall, specifically, that homosexuality was on the DSM until the DSM-III was released and even still a vague form of the same thing exists under Sexual Disorders Not Otherwise Specified.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Thomathy wrote:Mhmm... and

Thomathy wrote:

Mhmm... and no universal health care?  Fascinating system.  I somehow doubt that anyone views theism as a mental illness on par with something like schizophrenia though.  Depression is certainly not treated as such.  And I'll remind you that the DSM can hardly be considered a proper authority on mental illness, especially considering the lack of scientific rigour applied to the description, diagnosis and treatment prescribed for some illnesses.  I recall, specifically, that homosexuality was on the DSM until the DSM-III was released and even still a vague form of the same thing exists under Sexual Disorders Not Otherwise Specified.

I don't know if you've been to school or not, but the DSM kind of IS the authority on mental illness. 

What a boneheaded comment. 


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Yeah.  We've been over this

Yeah.  We've been over this a thousand times.  "Mental Illness" is a term that is not agreed upon by all the members of the psych community, much less cross-disciplinary fields that would have some say in the matter, such as neurology.  The DSM is used as a reference, not an authoritative description of all that is true.  New illnesses are added to it frequently.  Does that mean that they weren't illnesses until they appeared in print, or that they weren't recognized as such?

Fundamentalists often display most or all of the symptoms of Delusional Disorder.  Now, read what I'm about to write very carefully.  It's really important.  Fundamentalists often manifest Delusional Disorder through theism.  Theism is an expression of delusional disorder.  Ok?  Get it?  It's really simple.  Anyway, here are the indicators:

* the delusional belief is held to with inordinately strong force.

* The belief exerts undue influence on the patient's life, sometimes to inexplicable extent.

* Despite profound conviction, the patient displays suspicion or elusiveness when questioned about the belief.

* Lack of humor regarding the belief/overly sensitive to humor.  (Images of muhammed anyone?)

* Centrality:  no matter how unlikely the beliefs are, they remain largely unquestioned.

* When their belief is contradicted, the patients are often inappropriately angered, emotional, and hostile.

* Their belief is, at the least, very unlikely to be true.

* Their belief, if acted out, leads to bizarre or abnormal behaviors.

* The patient's behavior will change significantly, such that people who know them will find their new behavior out of character.

 

Features:

* Primary disorder

* Stable disorder

* Chronic disorder

* The delusions are believed to be logically constructed and internally consistent

* Outside of the delusion, normal logic is unimpaired.

* Heightened sense of self-reference.

 

Grandiose Delusional Disorder includes delusion of inflated worth (God loves me so much he's going to let me have anything I want if I pray for it with faith) power, (I can do all things through Christ, which strengtheneth me), knowledge (I know for certain that everything in the bible is completely true because god revealed it to me personally), identity (I am a child of god) or special relationship to a famous person (I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.)

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Story atheistic buddha

Story atheistic buddha jesus, "one" with god dude, said the separatist praying idol worshiping church folks were sick and blind, so they killed him, then latter they worshiped him. Sounds "sick" to me. "They do not know what they do" .... Heal the sick, thru love as to understand the enemy of sickness (the devil). I bring a sword of revolutionary debate, of zero appeasement to wrong sick thinking. My way or the highway to all you satanic possessed sick idol worshipers. 

Thanks exorcist atheist jesus! Amen! ... So come on children, "Shout at the Devil", that god of abraham! Crank up your guitars (swords) LOUDER! Save your selves from the false devil master. All is ONE, No Master.


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why religion is not listed in the DSM

The vast majority of Psychiatrists are atheists. When poled, a large majority of psychiatrist agree that religion is a mental disorder. However proposals to add religion as a metal disorder to the DSM have been rejected by psychiatrists.

The reason, that psychiatrists have not listed religion as a mental disorder in the DSM, is political. Psychiatrists believe that it would reduce their influence and result in political reprisals if they listed religion as a mental disorder in the DSM.

Generally, minimal requirements for both government provided and private health care packages are determined by State and local governments. Psychiatrists are constantly lobbying the state and federal government to broaden the scope of psychiatric care in health care coverage. 

Religion has vast political power in the US, and if psychiatrists did something that made theists angry, then the theists would have state and federal government reduce or eliminate psychiatric benifits in government provided health care plans and eliminate requirements to include psychiatric care in private health care plans.

Of course, its still true that, the consensus of psychiatrists is that religion is a mental disorder.

 

when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"


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Then fix the fucken DSM and

Then fix the fucken DSM and send me my damned money!  Theism id obviously impacting on my ability to lead a normal life.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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It is literally true in

It is literally true in the US, that the crazy people run the asylum and get to decide who is crazy.

when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"


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the patients are running the asylum

totus_tuus wrote:
<p>Then fix the fucken DSM and send me my damned money!&nbsp; Theism id obviously impacting on my ability to lead a normal life.</p>

 

I explained above why the DSM can not be fixed.

I am sure that any competent psychiatrist could cure your mental disorder (religion) in a reasonable time, but your going to have to pay for the treatment yourself because its not in the DSM.

The patients are running the asylum.

 

when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"


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You mean that  the shrinks

You mean that  the shrinks would rather keep their jobs at the risk of theism pulling society apart? 

Does this mean i should debark the gravy train?  Pity that.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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patcleaver wrote:The vast

patcleaver wrote:

The vast majority of Psychiatrists are atheists. When poled, a large majority of psychiatrist agree that religion is a mental disorder. However proposals to add religion as a metal disorder to the DSM have been rejected by psychiatrists.

The reason, that psychiatrists have not listed religion as a mental disorder in the DSM, is political. Psychiatrists believe that it would reduce their influence and result in political reprisals if they listed religion as a mental disorder in the DSM.

Generally, minimal requirements for both government provided and private health care packages are determined by State and local governments. Psychiatrists are constantly lobbying the state and federal government to broaden the scope of psychiatric care in health care coverage. 

Religion has vast political power in the US, and if psychiatrists did something that made theists angry, then the theists would have state and federal government reduce or eliminate psychiatric benifits in government provided health care plans and eliminate requirements to include psychiatric care in private health care plans.

Of course, its still true that, the consensus of psychiatrists is that religion is a mental disorder.

 

 

Speaking of tinfoil hat industry.

 

You know that got me thinking that atheism is a mental disorder but they won't list it because like you said (unsourced.) the majority of Psyciatrists are atheist so of course they're not gonna list it.


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You know come to think of it

You know come to think of it a lot of people here were former Theists.

 

Doesn't that mean they have mental disorders?


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:You know

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

You know come to think of it a lot of people here were former Theists.

 

Doesn't that mean they have mental disorders?

 

We have all been audited by ZenuRook, and have all reached clear status.  Where do you think all these donations to the RRS go?

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Wow. This thread has veered

Wow. This thread has veered off topic significantly. Can't you people survive a few hours without me?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


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Roisin Dubh wrote:.  Where

Roisin Dubh wrote:

.  Where do you think all these donations to the RRS go?

 

Booze and hookers?


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health is a disease

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 You know that got me thinking that atheism is a mental disorder but they won't list it because like you said (unsourced.) the majority of Psyciatrists are atheist so of course they're not gonna list it.

Wow you think rationality is a mental disorder.

Do you also think physical health is a physical disease.

Maybe medical doctors don't list physical health as a disease because the vast majority of them are physically healthy.

If you can not tell the difference between rationality and mental disease then what makes you think that you do not have a mental disease?

when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"


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patcleaver wrote:Wow you

patcleaver wrote:

Wow you think rationality is a mental disorder.

Do you also think physical health is a physical disease.

Maybe medical doctors don't list physical health as a disease because the vast majority of them are physically healthy.

 If you can not tell the difference between rationality and mental disease then what makes you think that you do not have a mental disease?

 

Who said atheists are rational?


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MattShizzle wrote:I actually

MattShizzle wrote:

I actually have to agree with totus here: The title said it was for creationists while the post was towards theists. Not the same. I suppose it's possible even to be a non-theistic creationist in some way (Earth was created by aliens) however, who made the aliens? (of course theism has the same problem. )

I know there is a difference, but only in the kind of magic used, not whether magic was used or not.

 

At some point, we have to call a duck a duck.

 

It's not our fault that Theists have chosen a world view that is magically based - just as Creationists have.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

patcleaver wrote:

Wow you think rationality is a mental disorder.

Do you also think physical health is a physical disease.

Maybe medical doctors don't list physical health as a disease because the vast majority of them are physically healthy.

 If you can not tell the difference between rationality and mental disease then what makes you think that you do not have a mental disease?

 

Who said atheists are rational?

 

Atheists.  And since they are rational, they are the best to judge what is rational. Eye-wink

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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smart people with healthy minds do not believe in god

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Who said atheists are rational?

While 90 percent of Americans believe in God, an American Psychiatric Association study found that only 43 percent in the profession do. And almost a third of psychiatrists with religious upbringings now profess to have no religious beliefs. Psychology Today, Jul/Aug 95

While only 33% of Psychiatrists say they are atheists, 57% say they do not believe in God.

Only 7% of the members of the national academy of Science say they believe in God.

Only 5.6% of the Royal Society fellows believe in God. The Royal Society is Great Britten's equivalent to the US National Academy of Science.

In Great Britten 65% of medical doctors and 77% of psychiatrists do not believe in God. Psychiatric Bulletin (2008) 32: 201-203. doi: 10.1192/pb.bp.108.019

In the US, 91% of adults over 21 say they believe in God. 80% of 18 to 21 year olds say they believe in God. Only 76% of doctors overall, but only 36% of Psychiatrists and 27% of radiologists believe in God.  Dr. Farr Curlin, University of Chicago, 2005.

In the US, only 40% of scientists with a BS believe in god. Only 10% of scientists with a PHD believe in God.

Only 4.6% of evolutionary biologists believe in God. American Scientist

many people identify themselves with a religion, but say they do not believe in God. 10% of Protestants, 21% of Catholics, 52% of Jews say they do not believe in God.

Only 6 of the last 700 winners of Nobel prizes in science and literature were Christians.

There is a strong negative correlation between IQ and belief in God.

Smart people do not believe in God for exactly the same reason that they do not believe in the Easter bunny, because there is no God.
 

when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:You know

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

You know come to think of it a lot of people here were former Theists.

Doesn't that mean they have mental disorders?

All but a few of us were brainwashed as children - just like you. But eventually we saw through the lies and found the truth.

Someday you will stop lying to yourself and accept the truth, that there is no good evidence for God, and that magical beings for which there is no good evidence do not exist.

when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"


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patcleaver wrote:All but a

patcleaver wrote:

All but a few of us were brainwashed as children - just like you. But eventually we saw through the lies and found the truth.

 

Yeah, too bad that I wasn't raised in a religious enviroment. Both my parents and my brother are atheists.


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Which god ? For world

Which god ? For world communication sakes it is important. God as meaning reality, or god of magic idol worship. Wish I could enforce a law of communication, as to helping all the world to better understanding our adult words, as I think of the kids.

LAW, use adjectives, like science god, OR religion god ??? Fucking babel ....


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:You know

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
You know that got me thinking that atheism is a mental disorder but they won't list it because like you said (unsourced.) the majority of Psyciatrists are atheist so of course they're not gonna list it.

Ah, of course, it's a worldwide psychiatric conspiracy.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
You know come to think of it a lot of people here were former Theists. Doesn't that mean they have mental disorders?

Non-Christians have mental disorders. Everybody knows that. 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Booze and hookers?

I love the preteen hookers.....in the ass.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Who said atheists are rational?

They're not. They're blind lost souls, tempted by Satan into raping 5 year olds on a school playground. They're so stupid. Why do they argue against something they don't believe in? It's because, deep down, in our hearts, we all believe in God, but we choose to deny evidenc and logic because we don't want to take responsibility. We know this is true because it's in the Bible; the Bible said, that in the latter days, people would be willfully ignorant of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Haha, evidence. You can't refute that. What's the matter atheists? Cat got your tongue?

Oh, I could be a pretty good fundamentalist.    

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Hambydammit wrote:The DSM is

Hambydammit wrote:

The DSM is used as a reference, not an authoritative description of all that is true.  New illnesses are added to it frequently.  Does that mean that they weren't illnesses until they appeared in print, or that they weren't recognized as such?

I never even suggested any of this.  Of course it's not an "authoritative description of all that is true".  Nothing is, obviously. 

Quote:
Theism is an expression of delusional disorder.

I don't quite agree.  I'd type it like this:  "Theism is an expression of delusional disorder."  Or, more accurately:  "Theism can be an expression of delusional disorder."  Clearly not all instances of theism are the same.  Watch:

Quote:
Anyway, here are the indicators:

* the delusional belief is held to with inordinately strong force.

This doesn't describe my theism.  I'm open to being wrong, and I love to explore new ideas/ways of thinking. 

Quote:
* The belief exerts undue influence on the patient's life, sometimes to inexplicable extent.

Eh, at one point in my life it did, but the fact that I was aged 17-20 must be taken into account.  Virtually everything is carried out to inexplicable extent during those years.  I'm just a semi-regular young adult now who still holds interest in the religion I was brought up in.  Not uncommon. 

Quote:
* Despite profound conviction, the patient displays suspicion or elusiveness when questioned about the belief.

I discuss "theism" as openly as I can with anyone who is interested.  The only people I'm elusive toward are my devout family members (and for obvious reasons). 

Quote:
* Lack of humor regarding the belief/overly sensitive to humor.  (Images of muhammed anyone?)

Definitely doesn't describe me, and furthermore describes virtually none of my peers.  My parents/grandparents are of course not open to religious humor, but a good friend of mine (and devout evangelical Christian) used to quote The Big Lebowski quite frequently:  "Don't fuck with the Jesus!"  Of course there are exceptions, but I see this as more of a generational thing. 

Quote:
* Centrality:  no matter how unlikely the beliefs are, they remain largely unquestioned.

I have a degree in philosophy, so...I kind of question things a lot.  Especially my own beliefs. 

Quote:
* When their belief is contradicted, the patients are often inappropriately angered, emotional, and hostile.

Sure, it's completely natural to experience anxiety in these types of situations.  It's called cognitive dissonance, and it certainly isn't localized to theism.  Some folks will become more angry and hostile than others, but again, it's going to depend on the person.  I'm a very relaxed guy (for the most part), so I don't throw a fit when I find out I'm wrong about something. 

Quote:
* Their belief is, at the least, very unlikely to be true.

What can I say?  I love an underdog story. 

Quote:
* Their belief, if acted out, leads to bizarre or abnormal behaviors.

First you're going to have to define "bizarre" and "abnormal".  These are cultural distinctions, of course, and are not universally applicable.  So while you may find it bizarre when I "mutter incantations to the ceiling", it's actually something that lots of people do harmlessly everyday. 

Suicide bombings and such, ok, we can agree on that.  Anytime rights are being infringed upon it's a different story.  But then again, I wouldn't classify such behavior as "bizarre or abnormal". 

Quote:
* The patient's behavior will change significantly, such that people who know them will find their new behavior out of character.

Yes, true.  But can't the same be said for when you had your atheistic awakening?  Or for when anyone has an "a-ha!" moment? 

 

So on, so forth, et cetera.  There's nothing intrinsically delusional (psychologically) about theism itself, just some of the people who hold it to be true. 


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Religion of Abe, is to pray

Religion of Abe, is to pray to an idol deity, and that is obviously delusion. Get on your knees, fall on the ground, clasp your hands .... thank and beg a perfect all knowing personal, cultural  imaginary loving creator of this life mess, blaming all human life for all suffering, as that religious god punishes , but he loves us.... Yes, that is sick.

The rich Pope, and all  his, are the devil of SICK wrong thinking.

To claim for one self any religious label as the perfect way is sick but common. To be blind and sick is to be the common nature of human kind, just as war is so common , SICK. Is WAR not a sickness ?????????????????????????????????


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zothique wrote:* Pascal's

zothique wrote:


* Argument from Superior Numbers:  There are many, many christians.  Therefore they must be right.  Right?

Wrong.  This argument doesn't hold any water at all, for obvious reasons.  Were they right that the world was flat?



Good sir this is named a appeal to popularity simply use every single scientific invention 1 person believed its true however the rest of the world didn’t and look what worked out.

Reductum ad absurdum for the win good sir.
 

 

zothique wrote:

* Pascal's Wager.  Even the real idiots come up with this one, and in fact it seems relatively common among them.  The answer to this is to simply ask them what happens if THEY are wrong about Poseidon.  By making this argument, they trap themselves in a very bad spot: there are tens of thousands of little gods and legends, so their possibility of being right is statistically tiny.

Another response is to point out the fact that they are engaging in fear tactics.  Point out that you don't believe in their little hippie god any more than you believe in unicorns.  Ask them if they believe in vampires, or if they think vampires are silly.  Tell them that the reason they don't believe in unicorns and vampires

 

 

 

O the vampire wager if you believe in vampires and protect agents them you win every time if vampires are real you will save your life if they are  fictional you will simply waist a little time. In short everyone who accepts god on the grounds of PASCAL’s wager must believe in vampires.

Actually the vampire wager is more reasonable then PASCAL’s one you win 100 atheist points if you can explain why.

Warning I’m not a native English speaker.

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jmm wrote:zothique wrote:In

jmm wrote:

zothique wrote:

In arguing down ignorant creationists, I've noticed that the vast majority of their arguments fall into a very few categories.  There are perhaps six of them.  There are doubtless more than this, but the run of the mill ignorant creationist is only parroting what it perceives as good arguments.  These are going to be warmed-over Hovind, possibly even Ray Comfort.  The challenge sometimes lies in pigeonholing the argument correctly so that you can deliver the appropriate devastating response.

Comedy gold. 

Protip:  don't quit your dayjob. 

Right back at ya. Smiling

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