Spirituality

I know how the majority here feels about religion, and I couldn't agree more. The idea of a giant invisible man in the sky telling me not to have sex seems pretty bizarre to me too. But what about spirituality?
I feel it's much different from religion. I'll define spirituality here as recognizing yourself as part of something bigger. For instance, at a sub-cellular level, we're all just the same inorganic matter. Does this make us part of, or one with, the universe? When Einstein spoke of god, I believe this is something like what he meant. Many theists like to claim he was on their side, but actually he was referring not to a personified higher power, but the vast and complex universe, as god.
So I guess the main question to everyone is: what are your thoughts on spirituality(as defined above)?

































This goes back to the whole, why we need to call the universe God. Is everything there is something greater as an idea that everything together is "God" is a needless term. I think it originates from being in a culture where belief in God is so prevalent and every person likes to think that their personal definition of said God is closest to the actual God. In a larger framework, we are all connected in that we are matter that came from the same place and contain energy that will eventually desist.
I know that I used to think of God as the energy that binds all living things, but that all there is really is just physical reality unto which we project the metaphysical idea of "God" to mean energy, matter, the universe and its inhabitants. Why can't the universe just be the universe? I think its one of the last vestigial pieces of letting go of the idea of God, and realizing that the "idea" is so ingrained in our head by Mother Culture that the contrary idea that the term is not necessary to define anything in the natural world, is hard to wrap our head around. Its literally thinking outside the box.
As for spirituality, I would follow Sam Harris' lead on this and say that there is something to be said for having intensely focused moment to moment experiences. Meditating and having peak experiences concerning the possibilities of joy, wonder, and thankfulness for the gift of life can be very real and don't have to be expelled from rational thinking humans.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
Sounds about right to me. I've been thinking about this kind of thing for years and came up with the same kinda stuff but whenever I try to talk to anyone about it they think I'm crazy or that I just think to much...so thanks for making me feel slightly less insane.
If anyone else has any different ideas though I'd still love to hear what they have to say....
I don't mind not getting into Heaven as long as there's cigarettes in Hell
You are not alone in your philosophical cosmological thoughts, it feels good to here that sometimes.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
I don't think the OP's version of 'spirituality' is typical of what people mean when they talk about spirituality. It doesn't just mean 'something greater than yourself', although that's the phrase that's thrown around. It usually means 'something *magical* greater than yourself'. It doesn't just mean 'the universe', it means 'the universe has a mind and causes things to happen for a reason'.
I've talked to people and explained to them that the universe is 'greater than myself', but they come back with 'yeah, but there's a purpose behind it all'. This is not much different from typical theistic beliefs. I think the key difference is that spirituality is more about experiences than about any particular creed. They emphasize the experience of 'feeling' that there is purpose and meaning behind what to you and me would call coincidences. A common saying of spiritualists is that 'there are no coincidences' or 'everything happens for a reason'.
I personally think there is a naturalist (i.e. non-magical) explanation for spiritual experiences. It mostly has to do with an intuitive mind-set that you allow yourself to fall back into. It is very similar to the intuitive mindset of children. Rational thinking, to a great extent, is characterized by an effort to deny the intuitive mindset, for the very good reason that many intuitions are systematically flawed. We call such flawed intuitions 'fallacies'. But when you allow yourself to be in the intuitive mindset, there IS a definite difference in the character of the experience. It is characterized by a sense of oneness, awe, wonder, and contentment. Everybody has had these experiences. Spiritualists specifically try to cultivate them. Unfortunately, they tend to eschew the benefits of rational thinking along the way. That's why the 'higher power' they emphasize is a magical mind-like one. It plays into the intuitive fallacy of anthropomorphization.
Q: "Isn't it a miracle that the universe/life/consciousness/myself exists?"
A: "No."
----
For any person P, question Q, and concept X
If the asking of Q depends on the existence of X, and P asks Q
Then X exists, and P should not be surprised of that
I personally don't like the words god or spirituality. They have been forced on me. So I use them, and all religious such words, in a way to try and destroy religion .... and I really appreciate all your help and insight ..... Here goes,
I am god as you as all is god, as conveyed in the most divine holy 'spirit for truth' simple intuitive revelation as in the saving lovingly indignant Jesus/Buddha religion BASHING message, that all is One with the God father cosmos universe and this NOW is the kingdom of God and heaven ..... and so no more superstitious religion nor prayer to a separate other, for that is the devil's hell spell keeping you a blind sinner, a fool hypocrite, an idol worshiper, and is blasphemy, as I AM the only way, just as the I AM is you ... those that worship me jesus/buddha are sadly confused.
etc ..... that ain't perfected yet , whatever
Ummm, I could just say "fuck all separate god / spirits" .... it's the same message. .... damn mess in my head, who done this to me ?
I consider myself a spiritual person, even though I don't believe in spirits or souls or any purpose to the universe. I am a little zen. I like to be in nature and feel the connection (caused by evolving in nature, not through spirits). I like to feel my connection with other people (some of them) and with myself when I am at peace. If you can manage to sink into a mental state of mu-shin (mind of no mind if you watched the Last Samurai), it feels very spiritual.
I guess my "oneness with the universe" is more about my mental state than anything else.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
The main obstacle of Peace on Earth is religion.
I hate the term spirituality and the notions attached to it, for good reason. The problem is one of coherency of expression. When I studied philosophy formally (it’s been some time), it was hammered into every single one of us, that if we could not express our ideas coherently and meaningfully, we would fail, and this has proved to be a very useful skill in detecting when people are not expressing ideas coherently and meaningfully to disguise that they have no ideas to begin with. An idea must be coherent and meaningful in order to act upon it. If an idea is neither, then it cannot be acted upon. The problem with notions such as “spiritual” is that they are so incoherent and so vague, so loose, that they seem to have virtually been designed with the aim in mind that they lacked the coherency to be acted upon, in which case, people would realize it is nonsense. Concepts like “higher being” and “something greater then ourselves” are little more than the linguistic equivalent of comfort food. They don’t meaningfully express coherent ideas. That is why I rather despise the concept of “spirituality”. Nobody has any idea what it means, nobody gives the notion rigorous epistemological treatment, and yet, for some reason, it is considered a “good thing” to “be spiritual” and a "bad thing" to "not be spiritual". We speak of "spiritual crises" and so forth. You understand where I am going with this. We seem to be more concerned with whatever vague and inexpressible or inarticulable propositions we wish to stay latched onto then any rigorous linguistic treatment of the notion, which is dishonest and vapid.
True virtue is life under the direction of reason
-Baruch de Spinoza
It is the mark of a reasoned man that he can without problem separate what he can deduce as true from that which he wishes to be true -Me
I concur with DG that "spiritual" is an unsatisfying term, as all definitions commonly given are also unsatisfying. What do we do with perspectives about the composition of ourselves or the universe, but ply them for whatever their emotional content? I could just as easily swap an observation about the atomic structure that unifies us with our common need to eat and shit. It feels satisfying in a vague way to believe there's a connective thread between people, but this is probably because it behooves us to do so from a biological standpoint. Our ancestors needed to ally with each other to survive. Empathy, familiarity, etc., are more comforting abstractions than foreignness and inscrutability. And if we don't plug absolute values into these ideas, and merely think of these ideas themselves (like love), we can gain a small emotional impact from them.
I'm just talking off the cuff, but it seems superficially plausible to me.
"We don't have to justify the things that don't make any sense anymore."
~former Scientologist Greg Barnes
xenutv.com
I tried to define spirituality as I did because I realize many connotations are associated with religion. The point was to drop these and think about the idea of something larger that is in no way a conscious spirit or god, just something more.
I'm just wondering, do you all think that just because we weren't created by a big man in the sky that life is somehow less beautiful or miraculous? maybe it's still a natural and explainable phenomenon, but I see it as incredible anyway.
I don't mind not getting into Heaven as long as there's cigarettes in Hell
I concur with DG and Magilum that the word spirituality is pretty much always a cover for an undefined or incoherent concept. If you have to resort to using the word, you probably don't have a valid point.
Like what?
That's not a rhetorical question. What do you mean, exactly, when you say "something more"? More than what? What kind of thing are you thinking of discovering? Is it bigger than a breadbox? This is what everyone has been saying. "Something more" is just another way of saying, "I have no idea what I'm talking about."
For me, life has been exponentially more beautiful and awe inspiring since I adopted a materialist worldview. Have a look at THIS ESSAY where I explain how the beauty of science trumps the hollow promises of religion.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- H. G. Wells
I'll have to admit that it is sort of a bogus term. I can't totally write it off though. It doesn't explain anything we can tangibly observe in the natural world, but people for some reason seem to feel it. Right now it's just something we know exists but can't define. All that means is we're ignorant to it's true workings, and can only hope we can reach a logical way of explaining it some day.
I don't mind not getting into Heaven as long as there's cigarettes in Hell
"Feel that snorguphen!" "What? What's snorguphen?" "I can't define it, but, wow, can't you feel it?"
Definition is the root of communicating ideas. If something exists it has to be defined in some basic fashion before we can discuss it. As we learn about something that definition becomes more specific and more detailed.
You can be arbitrary about the definition, so long as you're clear about it (and aren't making up new definitions for established ideas). In the case of "spiritual" I think you might well be able to define it as "A class of pleasant emotional responses to external and internal stimuli associated with a sense of being a part of a greater whole, as in a member of a species, an active participant in a team, or as being a sentient portion of the universe."
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." --Emo Philips
No. People feel something that we can describe in natural terms, and for some reason, which can be described in natural terms, they think it's not natural.
If people think God makes lightning, but it's actually from static buildup, then lightning is natural and god is still incoherent. If people think there's a spirit world, but what there really is is a belief that there is a spirit world, then belief in the spirit world is natural and the spirit world is incoherent.
We know no such thing. Some people think that they can just propose something incoherent and the proposition itself is enough to justify belief in the thing. This is a problem with critical thinking, not in defining an incoherent concept.
Your thinking is ass backwards. We don't start with an undefined concept and then go about trying to prove it. We start with observations of reality. When we observe reality, we see that 1) Lots of people believe in spirituality but can't define it, and 2) Things that can't be defined are incoherent.
We can discard #1 because any appeal to numbers is a fallacy. That leaves us with #2. Spirituality is incoherent.
End of story.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- H. G. Wells
There have always been things we know, or at least believe to exist without being able to explain it in words. Robert Pirsig explores this concept in detail in his book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. which, as he says in the book, has little to do with zen or motorcycles.
He explores the idea of quality, that some things are more desirable than others. we know some things are better than others, but how do we define what is good?
So I'll ask you a question raised in the book: What is quality in thought and statement?
I don't mind not getting into Heaven as long as there's cigarettes in Hell
Don't let them confuse "unexamined" with "mysterious". Qualitative and quantitative really are well defined, what we consider good over bad is just as well defined - it can be one contorted definition, to be sure, and the history of that definition can be mired in an astonishing heap of flim-flam as groups of folks influence the overall zeitgeist, based on previous groups' influence, based on even earlier groups' influence... etc.
I hope I'm being clear here, unfortunately I don't have a great deal of practice with expressing my ideas.
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." --Emo Philips
Unless there's some kind of spectacular insight I'm not aware of, this is just a simple mistake in critical thinking. Quality (value) doesn't exist in the same way that green exists. A plant has the physical property of reflecting light in such a way as to produce the appearance of what humans perceive as "green." Regardless of whether a human looks at it, it has those properties, and reflects light in that way. "Green" is a word we use to describe our perception of it, not the actual physical properties in question. "Green" exists in our head, but what makes something appear green exists whether we do or not.
"Quality," on the other hand, does not exist without observation. Furthermore, there is always a referential concept inherent in a quality judgment. In other words, if I say, "That is a good knife," I mean that it performs the task of cutting tomatoes well, or that it is sturdy, or that it has been crafted in a way that is aesthetically pleasing. I am measuring one or more of its properties against a concept in my head. Without a creature to wield the knife and make a cut in something, the knife is nothing more than one more hunk of molecules.
Ok, you're getting into dangerous ground here. Words are necessarily incomplete descriptors of the universe for a variety of reasons. This is not disputed. However, the limitations of words are philosophical, not material. Whether I can adequately define the word, "the," it accomplishes its task in language. To say that the philosophical limitations of words are justification for the existence of the incoherent is equivalent to saying that the existence of paradoxes in Quantum Physics is justification for a particular rock both existing and not existing at the same time. It's a fallacy of composition, or maybe it's a category error. In any case, it's misusing a philosophical conundrum to justify an empirical statement.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- H. G. Wells
I'd have to agree. I think that's the main reason this thread has continued as long as it has. I guess it's like it's been said earlier, the word and even the concept of spirituality is basically just something we use when we have no solid idea as to what we're talking about.
When I posted this I think I was trying to express the ideas put forth in Hambydammit's essay, that life could still be beautiful and complex even with(or possibly because of) scientific explanation. Not knowing exactly what to call it, I just fell back on the word most people use when confused about these feelings.
I'm sure you're not used to hearing this on this site since you mostly debate theists who won't admit defeat at any cost, but I think you proved your point to me. Thanks to everyone who participated, I think I really learned something here.
I don't mind not getting into Heaven as long as there's cigarettes in Hell
Yo language titans. Here's an obvious short example of why the word itself, "Spirituality", is nearly worthless. It's definition is too broad, like the word "god". On the up side tho, it's often helpful to shaking off religious dogma ..... an improved spell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
If my chair didn't have a back, I'd have just fallen over backwards!
It is extremely rare for anyone to change their mind, and even more rare for them to admit it. Thank you very much. You've made my day!
Really, I should add a paragraph or two in that essay about the word spirituality. We have words to describe the way atheists feel when they contemplate the mysteries and immensities of the universe, but we've been conditioned by the almost ubiquitous concept of spirituality to feel that they are inadequate to the task. The reality is that spirituality is inadequate, and the other words are accurate.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- H. G. Wells
glad to help, even in a small way. I actually posted this in the interest of learning something, so I'm grateful you took the time to help.
This is actually kind of sad. I think most people have a natural tendency to classify the unique and beautiful as supernatural and science as cold and lacking in humanity. We as atheists should really try to erase the prejudice people have that science can't be appealing on an emotional and logical basis. I don't think nearly as many people would cling to their old religions if they lost this precept.
I don't mind not getting into Heaven as long as there's cigarettes in Hell
I agree on all points
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- H. G. Wells
What you describe here is the impetus behind my coinage of the word 'wonderism'. I'm seeking to explore religion and spirituality with a naturalistic vocabulary and language, rather than obscurantist bullshit, and furthermore expressing, as Hamby has in his essay, the wonder of the scientific and naturalistic worldview. God is imaginary. Wonder is real.
Q: "Isn't it a miracle that the universe/life/consciousness/myself exists?"
A: "No."
----
For any person P, question Q, and concept X
If the asking of Q depends on the existence of X, and P asks Q
Then X exists, and P should not be surprised of that
I think that the experience s people think of as 'spiritual' is something many, if not all, people will feel under certain circumstances. I think it triggers some people to associate it with some sort of 'communion' with a 'higher power' or some other religiously inspired idea if they are so primed by their current beliefs and/or world view.
When I have felt intense feelings when contemplating some truly beautiful landscape, such as my first view of Yosemite Valley, I just enjoy the 'high' to intensify the moment.
I like the way a prominent Australian atheist who does a regular late night radio talk show, Philip Adams, refers to 'the sense of the numinous' to describe the non-religious version of this experience.
I truly resent the way religious believers have appropriated this common human experience as an intrinsically 'religious' thing but I can understand why they do it. Rather than being an experience that only a 'true believer' can genuinely have, as a validation of religion, I think it is the other way round - the experience itself, inspired by the gut reaction to the wonder of nature, perhaps, has been a prime trigger of religious ideas in susceptible minds.
IOW the 'spiritual' experience inspired certain people to devise religious concepts to 'explain' the experience, rather than religious beliefs allowing us to have such experiences.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
There's a somewhat common occurrence experienced by musicians. Where I grew up, all the musicians called it "Musicians' Euphoria." I have no idea if there's a real name for it. Sometimes, while you're playing something, especially something intensely complicated, you hit a kind of "removed" state where things are just happening, and you feel as if you are no longer in control. Instead, it's as if you're watching yourself play, all the while experiencing the music in an incredibly focused and intense way. (No, it's not drug induced. At least it wasn't in me.) I experienced it the first time while playing one of Liszt's Transcendental Etudes, appropriately enough. The etude lasts about ten or eleven minutes, but when it was over, I couldn't have told you if I had been playing for two minutes or twenty unless I knew intellectually what the length was. I had lost awareness of the audience. I was truly startled when I heard the clapping.
Our brains are really neat gadgets. The really awesome thing is that I don't have to explain that experience by resorting to goddidit. It was my brain giving me some kind of crazy trip because of some kind of genetic hardwiring. I don't know the particulars, but I don't need to. It was an incredible experience that is seared into my memory in ways that others are not.
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the first people to invent religion were suffering from epilepsy.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- H. G. Wells
You don't know that....
Actually, I've seen a number of people here follow this line of reasoning... making a leap in logic from the lack of personal observation of a person who meets a certain criteria and generalizing that to conclude that no such person exists... surely this ought to be a known logical fallacy. It's like arriving at the conclusion of pigeon-holing without actually doing the pigeon-holing.
I wouldn't assume it was hardwiring. Neuroplasticity is an amazing thing.