AIDS was designed to control populations. Sure.

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AIDS was designed to control populations. Sure.

First off, I'm genuinely bothered by the Jeremiah Wright business.  The press basically ignored  Mitt Romney turning JFK's old church/state separation speech on its ear and Mike Huckabee suggesting that the Constitution should be twisted to suit those who blather on about Hivites and Jebusites, but apparently Barack Obama has to be turned on the spit for just going to Rev. Wright's church.  I'm sure I need not mention here that plenty of folks can sit in a church for years on end thinking "This is such bullshit, but I'd disappoint everybody I know...".

And as a poor white kid from the South I know there ain't no such thing as good old days.  I regularly make furniture and lampshades out of old money frat boys who fly the Stars and Bars (none available right now...Thomas Kincaid sells out every time I get a shipment together--must be the parents' recognizing Caleb's tribal tattoo on Item #199-07).  Digressions aside, I understand the anger and the need to claim it.    

But the whole "AIDS is a part of a conspiracy to control the black population" nonsense isn't a slander against white people (or Jews, or whoever else he's blaming) as it is against science itself.  I'm a microbiologist by trade and I'm totally mystified by HIV.  Its mutation rate is so far beyond the pale for human pathogens that it's a wonder it remains pathogenic or even continues to target T-cells.  I know when HIV emerged and I know the state of technology at that time.  The fact of the matter is that you simply couldn't do the molecular biology at that point in history.  You'd need a motherfucking time machine to make it happen.

This AIDS conspiracy twaddle is a particular stripe of anti-intellectualism that actually does endanger every one of us.  

 

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Then again, the American

Then again, the American government is not above giving diseases to people and exposing them to poisons for the sake of "science"

The Tuskegee syphilis project and the pesticide exposure studies come to mind.

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That's a fair point.

That's a fair point.  Doesn't change the fact that AIDS is not a population control measure and that there's no evidence that it was ever intended to be.

 

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DamnDirtyApe wrote:That's a

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

That's a fair point.  Doesn't change the fact that AIDS is not a population control measure and that there's no evidence that it was ever intended to be.

 

Just acknowledging possibilities that I never thought I'd ever have to acknowledge.

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It's a silly notion. THe

It's a silly notion. THe world was taken completely by surprise by AIDs for two reasons. One, it is so clever. It has 10 genes and finds its way around virtually every defense mechanism the body can offer. Because of Rev and the RRE, it can transcribe introns into long mRNA for packaging into capsid without being destroyed inside the nucleus despite still having hnRNP bound to the mRNA. It can switch between lytic and prophage very fast and the bastard is so hard to find when it lies low, especially because it can manufacture spliced viral proteins without producing the genetic material necessary for the assemblage of completed particles in the eukaryotic cytosol. The other reason the world was taken by surprise is because a disease like AIDS should not be so contagious. Some diseases are very contagious under certain conditions. Y Pestis is vector-borne, but it become as deadly rapid as an airborne pathogen in large, unsanitized urban centers with many rats that host the fleas that carry the plague. But, HIV, by rights, shouldn't be contagious. It cannot spread by air. It cannot even spread by saliva. It can only spread by blood and sexual fluid. From an epidemiological standpoint, it shouldn't really work, the same way there are no massive outbreaks of syphillis or chlamydia.

Second of all, the notion that AIDS was invented is ridiculous for another reason. AIDS originated in the 1950s. Even today, we cannot simply "construct" organisms, and we certainly couldn't fine-tune them to such a degree. When AIDS emerged, we barely understood Watson-Crick base pairing. We knew nothing of introns and exons and SINEs and homologies and Gene regulatory proteins. It would be like trying to build a skyscraper with duct tape and spit.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:It would be

deludedgod wrote:
It would be like trying to build a skyscraper with duct tape and spit.

Or a tower of babel?

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deludedgod wrote:It's a

deludedgod wrote:

It's a silly notion. THe world was taken completely by surprise by AIDs for two reasons. One, it is so clever. It has 10 genes and finds its way around virtually every defense mechanism the body can offer. Because of Rev and the RRE, it can transcribe introns into long mRNA for packaging into capsid without being destroyed inside the nucleus despite still having hnRNP bound to the mRNA. It can switch between lytic and prophage very fast and the bastard is so hard to find when it lies low, especially because it can manufacture spliced viral proteins without producing the genetic material necessary for the assemblage of completed particles in the eukaryotic cytosol. The other reason the world was taken by surprise is because a disease like AIDS should not be so contagious. Some diseases are very contagious under certain conditions. Y Pestis is vector-borne, but it become as deadly rapid as an airborne pathogen in large, unsanitized urban centers with many rats that host the fleas that carry the plague. But, HIV, by rights, shouldn't be contagious. It cannot spread by air. It cannot even spread by saliva. It can only spread by blood and sexual fluid. From an epidemiological standpoint, it shouldn't really work, the same way there are no massive outbreaks of syphillis or chlamydia.

Second of all, the notion that AIDS was invented is ridiculous for another reason. AIDS originated in the 1950s. Even today, we cannot simply "construct" organisms, and we certainly couldn't fine-tune them to such a degree. When AIDS emerged, we barely understood Watson-Crick base pairing. We knew nothing of introns and exons and SINEs and homologies and Gene regulatory proteins. It would be like trying to build a skyscraper with duct tape and spit.

I agree it was not constructed by the government. It is not unheard of for the government to take advantage of situations presented to them.

I'm trying not to be a tinfoil hatter but this current crop of religiously insane people running the government makes it difficult to not acknowledge conspiracies.

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I've generally heard AIDS

I've generally heard AIDS purported by christians to be god's punishment for gays. I've heard the contolling black popualtion ones as well, but not as much.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Quote:I've generally heard

Quote:

I've generally heard AIDS purported by christians to be god's punishment for gays. I've heard the contolling black popualtion ones as well, but not as much.

Which is bizarre since in most of the world, HIV is vastly more prevalent in the heterosexual population. In Africa, HIV makes a nasty combination with warfare and economic destruction. This forces the women into prostitution, and so they become HIV bombs. Since the men in turn believe it a sign of virility to have sex very promiscuosly...the results are the efficiency of HIV in spreading in the heterosexual population which make the disease burn through population like wildfire. It's prevalency among homosexuals is principally in the United States gay communites and is not a trend across the world.

There are those, specially in the Catholic Church, who believe that teaching "abstinence" is the solution. Worse, they try to block the dissemination of safe-sex education and condoms. I utterly despair at this idiocy. It will not work. It's exactly like the Catholic Church's attitude toward the 40-years-doubling population of Latin America, a highly Catholic region. If the Catholic church truly desires a natural method of population control, then they shall get one: Starvation. Likewise, if they are so determined that AIDS spread should be combatted without employing safe-sex education and condoms, and again by only employing natural methods, then they shall get another natural method: By the time the disease burns itself out, everyone will be dead and there will be no one to pass it on to. No matter how much the twisted ethical notions of the Vatican try to enforce their methods of population control and disease spread, Malthus will always win. He has never lost. Whether it is by starvation or mass-death by pandemic, the ethically bizarre attempts to preserve the mere possibility of sperm fertilizing egg will always find the damage these beliefs wreak undone swiftly and by brutal Malthusian controls on the symbiosis between organisms and resources. 

Now to say something nice about the Church. The AIDS conspiracies reminds me of the 1340s, when Y. pestis would kill one European in every three, and when the Europeans believed that the Jews were poisoning wells across European urban centers in a massive, evil, conspiracy. The only voice of reason was the Pope, Clement VI, who wrote "It cannot be true that the Jews cause the plague...for it afflicts the Jews themselves". Clement was also responsible for eradicating the Flagellants (which is good).

The contrast between the same institution 700 years ago and now is embarassing.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote: There are

deludedgod wrote:

 


There are those, specially in the Catholic Church, who believe that teaching "abstinence" is the solution. Worse, they try to block the dissemination of safe-sex education and condoms.

I can attest to this, though I went to a funie christian school, not a catholic one. We were taught that condoms cannot prevent AIDS, as the virus is smaller than the microscopic holes in condoms. I remember one boy saying," Well after seeing that I'm never going to use a condom."

What makes it worse is I live in the AIDS capital of the world.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Quote:What makes it worse is

Quote:

What makes it worse is I live in the AIDS capital of the world.

South Africa?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:Quote:What

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

What makes it worse is I live in the AIDS capital of the world.

South Africa?

That is the correct answer. Our goverment doesn't help much. The president wouldn't admit HIV causes AIDS and blamed it on aliens, the future president made a famous remark that a shower after sex will prevent it, and the health minister said garlic will cure it. You don't have to wonder why it's such a epidemic here.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Quote:We were taught that

Quote:
We were taught that condoms cannot prevent AIDS, as the virus is smaller than the microscopic holes in condoms.

They told me that, too.  Does anyone know who came up with that?

 

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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:We

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
We were taught that condoms cannot prevent AIDS, as the virus is smaller than the microscopic holes in condoms.

They told me that, too.  Does anyone know who came up with that?

 

I can't remember, but it was part of a course called 'No Aplogies' which was designed by Focus on the Family.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:We

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
We were taught that condoms cannot prevent AIDS, as the virus is smaller than the microscopic holes in condoms.

They told me that, too.  Does anyone know who came up with that?

 

I first remember hearing it in 1992 on conservative talk radio.  Well, overhearing it, to be honest.

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Origins of AIDS

Has anybody read The River: A Journey Back to the Source of HIV and AIDS by Sebastian Lucas? It is interesting and at the very least, has the "best yet historical description of AIDS" according to one reviewer. 


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Quote:I first remember

Quote:
I first remember hearing it in 1992 on conservative talk radio.  Well, overhearing it, to be honest.

Hell,  my last real biology class was in the early 90s.  Aren't there tons of viruses that are crazy small... like 80 or 90 nanometers?  HPV isn't exactly huge, is it?  Geez... is it capsid diameter that you're worried about?

Will someone who knows what they're talking about save me from displaying any more ignorance?  I guess I just don't understand whether the whole "Condoms don't stop AIDS" thing was made up from nothing, or if someone read a page or two of a science book before saying it.

 

 

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Chemtrails

Conspiracy theories like this have taken another twist if some people don't follow them like I do. As a skeptic, I make my rounds of conspiracy websites as well as my many other paths of inquiry. There are rumors that chemtrails, similiar to normal contrails of aircraft, are being put up into the atmosphere for some unknown purpose. Many conspiracy theorists claim these phenomenon are being used to lower the bodies ability to fight off diseases and thus lower the population. There are other variants to the story, such as weather control, but the pop control is the king of the conspiracies.

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Oh, yeah.  Chemtrails. 

Oh, yeah.  Chemtrails.  That idea's been around for a good twenty years, I think.  I always thought that would be a really convoluted way of introducing chemicals into the environment, but then conspiracy theories aren't known for their falsifiability.

I'm guessing you also know about the H.A.R.P project.  Lots of good movie plots in that one.  One of my favorites from the old Art Bell days was called Reverse Speech.  You see, when you lie, your subconscious makes you say the truth backwards, kind of like the back masking on old Black Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult albums.  When Clinton was saying, "I never had sexual relations with that woman," he was apparently saying, "I like to smoke marijuana" if you played it just right in reverse.

Then there are the monuments on Mars... the hidden cures for cancer... remote viewing (Now there's a great conspiracy theory)... and the ever-so-popular New World Order/Illuminati/Mason connection.

There's no shortage of crazy shit to believe if you like your reality evidence-free.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:Oh,

Hambydammit wrote:

Oh, yeah.  Chemtrails.  That idea's been around for a good twenty years, I think.  I always thought that would be a really convoluted way of introducing chemicals into the environment, but then conspiracy theories aren't known for their falsifiability.

I'm guessing you also know about the H.A.R.P project.  Lots of good movie plots in that one.  One of my favorites from the old Art Bell days was called Reverse Speech.  You see, when you lie, your subconscious makes you say the truth backwards, kind of like the back masking on old Black Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult albums.  When Clinton was saying, "I never had sexual relations with that woman," he was apparently saying, "I like to smoke marijuana" if you played it just right in reverse.

Then there are the monuments on Mars... the hidden cures for cancer... remote viewing (Now there's a great conspiracy theory)... and the ever-so-popular New World Order/Illuminati/Mason connection.

There's no shortage of crazy shit to believe if you like your reality evidence-free.

 

I didn't realize the chemtrail conspiracy went back so far. I had just heard about this maybe 4 years ago. Actually, there was an apparatus that was designed back in the 1990s to disperse I believe it was barium salts and aluminum oxide into the atmosphere to combat global warming. There was a patent assigned but not sure it was ever built. The popular claim now is that aluminum and other heavy metals are being added to the fuel and distributed via the exhaust. Unfortunately, most of these materials would be very abrasive to the final stages of the engines and cause a large amount of damage if introduced to the fuel over the long term.

Yeah, I have been interested in the H.A.A.R.P. program myself and the theories surrounding it. Some of the research they are doing is pretty scary, but I don't believe that they intend to control our thoughts using HF waves. Last time I looked the area in Alaska the site was located was blackened out on Google Earth. I work with the military and the thought of extending RADAR coverage around the world is one exciting prospect of HAARP.

Yeah, this guy I work with is a big conspiracy nut, oh and a seventh day adventist to boot so I get it on both ends. I enjoy shooting down his stupid and ignorant claims.

 

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The big difference between a

The big difference between a conspiracy nut and a skeptic is simple.  A conspiracy nut uses the same (il)logic as a theist -- "Since something is beyond our knowledge, it's probably true."

What I mean by that is that someone can look at a real project, say, the military looking at nonlethal sound weapons, and take it to an unscientific extreme.  "If they're telling us about how sound can knock you out, then what they really are doing is using subliminal codes corresponding to our DNA structure, and imbedding them in the sublingual neurocortex with special microchips, and they can make us think whatever they want."

Nevermind that subliminal messages and DNA have nothing to do with each other, and nobody knows what the hell "sublingual cortex" is supposed to mean.  There's this idea that the government hides all this stuff from us that is super-duper technology, and it ignores science.

As for the OP, the government couldn't possibly have manufactured a virus before anyone on earth knew about base pairs.  If you believe the government knew about base pairs before the science community, well.. um... geez.... I know this young earth creationist I'd like you to have a debate with.

 

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The Cure

South Park showed us that AIDS can be cured by injecting a large amount of money into your veins. xD

 

Racist assholes... funny though. Anyone got any news on the current status of any cure / slowing effects of AIDS? I think I heard someone at my school talking about some cream or something a year or two ago... but that kid was kind of stupid... well he was smart but this was his sense of humor. I haven't really been reading alot of biology lately. Sad

 

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AIDS is not a

AIDS is not a conspiracy...the tuskegee experiments, the trail of tears, LSD experiments did show a government willing to play GOD with people's lives without telling them, but they did not have the know-how to create, introduce, and disseminate AIDS to certain people. That is ridiculous. If it weren't for Tuskegee Experiments and the like, retarded memes like this would not readily stick to pliable brains looking for reasons to back up their hatred. Wright has been denounced, but we will still have to endure his fucking "God Damn America" clip ad nauseam.

 

As for chemtrails, they are real...just ask Luminon(jk Luminon, I have no idea if you believe in chemtrails).

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