Souls

MattShizzle
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Souls

The idea of the soul is definitely an irrational precept - the very idea of being able to think/have experiences outside the brain and nervous system???? I would guess it's simply a primitive idea from the time when people knew nothing of how the brain and nervous system worked, so they came up with this concept. Unfortunately, most people still believe it.

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MattShizzle wrote: The idea

MattShizzle wrote:
The idea of the soul is definitely an irrational precept - the very idea of being able to think/have experiences outside the brain and nervous system???? I would guess it's simply a primitive idea from the time when people knew nothing of how the brain and nervous system worked, so they came up with this concept. Unfortunately, most people still believe it.

Whenever anyone asks me if I believe in a soul, I always respond "well yes, and its made out of millions of tiny little machines designed by evolution."  This is not unique to me, this is also how Dan Dennett responds. 

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It makes perfect sense.

It makes perfect sense. Souls stay with the corpse until Jesus comes back.

When Jesus returns to earth on his cloud, all saved Christians will rise from their gaves and fly up into the sky to meet him. But right now they're just lying there in their graves staring up at the coffin lids waiting for Jesus.

But they do get one night a year when they're allowed to get up and walk around and stretch their legs. And it's the last night in October. But on that night, some of these dead souls try to come into the houses of the living and break stuff and basically cause trouble. But years ago it was discovered that for an unknown reason, dead souls are deathly afraid of pumpkins. So just put a pumpkin on your doorstep and they'll go back to the graveyard and not bother you again.

Does this make sense now?

 


 

 

 

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Sjet
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Soul

The soul can still possibly exist without the basis of any kind of religion, remember when it gets into things that have to deal with the soul or psychic abilities or the astral realm, it involves quantum physics-our science today doesn't know EVERYTHING like you guys seem to seriously claim. I'm an athiest as well-but I'm not stupid enough to denounce everything without exploring, studying, or atleast attempting to explore the unknown.


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Careful, kiddo! There's an

Tongue out

Careful, kiddo!

There's an important distinction to be made here, and I think most atheists would agree with me...

IF there is something that survives death, THEN it is natural.

IF said natural soul-thingy exists, THEN it is verifiable, even if only through quantum physics.

    IF soul-thingy is verifiable, THEN I will believe in it when it's verified.

Until then, I will not bother speculating about things I don't know jack about.

 

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Sjet
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Natural

That's where I believe Astral Projection brings itself in, through that you can discover if you have a soul-or if it's just made up. The only truth to each individual is our own personal truths-and those are only gained through self-experience. If you don't explore the unknown and just take someone elses word for it-or simply try to push it away-you'll never discover what's behind closed doors, just simply try and say the door doesn't exist.

 

And yes I still believe that it is natural-every "super-natural" thing people claim I don't believe is supernatural and I think their idiots for saying so. I'm glad you guys are denouncing God and all-just try and get a perspective that litterly allows you to see God physically-or any other god for that matter. I study all religions, philosophies, and parapsychology as well, I get all viewpoints, and I can easily see there are many-MANY lies and contradictions to different religions.  Nothing is supernatural though-everything is natural because everything that does exist-is natural. (unrelated to chemicals in food and such and other man made materials etc.)


Hambydammit
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To the best of my

To the best of my knowledge, astral projection has never been verified independently.  Despite anyone's beliefs about their own subjective experiences, for me to believe in astral projection, I'd have to, in your very own words, "just take someone elses word for it."

So... I don't believe in astral projection, since someone else's word is not good enough.  As soon as the science community figures out how to prove it, I'll happily believe in it.

I suspect that you're making the same mistake theists make -- that is, to assume that because atheists reject god, we also reject everything unknown.  This is not true.  We do not reject the unknown.  We reject unproven concepts until they're proven. 

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Oooooooh, the soul, that

Oooooooh, the soul, that sort of thing that kids tells stories about around a campfire.  Funny thing about ghosts/souls is that their clothing goes on into the afterlife.  Decartes said the soul resided three (or was it six) inches above the head, the Egyptians believed it was in the liver.

 So what's the purpose of the soul?  It's supposed to house our personality and be the ghost in the machine that controls our body, but not material like our body.  Therefore if we take LSD and our perception is altered then somehow that acid on the Abe Lincoln stamp magically made it's way to our soul.  Phineas Gage got a railroad spike through his head which altered his personality so a railroad spike can piece and alter one's immaterial soul.  Brain surgeons can poke part of our brain and force our soul to move a limb.

The soul has been scientifically disproven.  Theists don't want to admit that fact because the soul is the basis of every religion because without one there can be no afterlife.  Why bother accepting Jesus to have your soul saved when there is no soul to be saved?  Souls can only exist as a metaphor for that collective of neurons which produce consciousness which we call a mind. 


Sjet
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The soul can't "house" your

The soul can't "house" your personality-it's impossible the personality aspects are caused by your physical brain and not your mind. The soul isn't "Controlling" your body in a way that you describe. However to an earlier post you mentioned that you can't take my word on it and would ignore it until proven-however like I said, it's a personal truth-it's your own self experience-no one can show you how to dream, or even see with your physical eyes. These have been proven-but if you never dreamed, or if you never saw with your physical eyes-how would you ever have known them to exist? people can tell you many things-but until you actually try to do those things-and experience them, you'll never understand or gain experience with it. The only way for you to ever find out if astral projection is real or not-is not wait until someone tells you it's real-that would never give you the true answer your seeking for, even if it were to be explained, it still wouldn't give you the answer you seek-the only way is to experience it yourself. To have your own personal truth. Always explore the unknown, regardless what anyone tells you-and you know what, if it turns out it doesn't exist-oh well, you just proved it to yourself-but if everyone just went off other peoples idea's-then what's the point of being a individual? Learning is good-but learning and then re-testing using self experience is better.

 

Also, I didn't finish the top part-the soul houses all of the knowledge and wisdom ascertained with every experience it's ever encountered, it has nothing to do with the personality you have physically today-or any day for that matter-once the soul becomes detached, then the knowledge you gained here, is added to the plethora of information. However through my belief in a way it guides you through life, but my scientific view on that is your sub-conscience guides you through life.-I have both a scientific view, and a spiritual view-just two different ways to describe the same thing-depends on who I'm talking to.


Hambydammit
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bah. It gets so frustrating

bah.

It gets so frustrating sometimes.  Why is it so hard to just use the same standards of logic for all questions?

 

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it's a personal truth-it's your own self experience-no one can show you how to dream, or even see with your physical eyes. These have been proven-but if you never dreamed, or if you never saw with your physical eyes-how would you ever have known them to exist?

"Personal truth" sounds really nice, but it's still just a nice way of saying something is unverifiable -- even to the person experiencing it.

Science has "proven" why the eyes see.  We know in intricate detail how they work, and can describe the process to a blind person.

Likewise, we know something of dreams.  We know what parts of the brain fire when we dream.  We can recognize the patterns in brain waves that correspond to dreams.  We can describe dreams in a scientific manner, despite the fact that we do not have a comprehensive theory explaining every aspect of dreams.

There is ZERO scientific evidence for a soul.  There is ZERO scientific evidence that astral projection is real.

You're trying hard to get to the problem of symbols and language, but you're getting bogged down somewhere in Descartes.  It would help you a lot to realize the difference between objective falsification and subjective experience.  Probably wouldn't hurt to lay off America's Other Cigarette for a while, either.

(Sorry... cheap jab there... realize I have a smile on my face as I type.  I'm not trying to be mean.)

 

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Sjet
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No need for cheap jabs, and

No need for cheap jabs, and no need to claim I do any kind of drugs-because honestly I would never do drugs. Neither is there any reason to have a "smile" or anything no one is defeating anyone it's simply telling other's idea's. We all have self-evidence, and to no one can it be proven completely that everything around us-everything our senses tell us is false, for all we know we could be a thought of some guy laying in a hospital bed in a coma. Every idea here is discussed simply to further our knowledge and expand our understanding-you take all of the knowledge you previously had, and still have, and combine it with any new knowledge you gain-then you translate the truths out of it, and decide to try and discover more. I don't know, I've always been interested in the Unknown-at first it was space and time, and was interested so much in thinking the answer lied "out there", but then I found the answer may be lieing directly inside your mind. Although travelling the galaxy in a starship discovering new places and things would be interesting-I became bored-and when I found something that defied physics-that interested me, I've been able to do certain things such as psychokinesis because I've learned how to-any video I've ever shown to prove psychokinesis etc, no matter what is done no one would believe it-and honestly it really doesn't matter if anyone believes me, I just tell people they should learn it themselves-because you will NEVER have the kind of belief in anything until you do it yourself-like the feeling you get from skydiving-no one can tell you the rush you get until you actually do it. The only truth is personal truth-rather discovered from a different source, or learned on your own, it's the only way you truely will believe it.

 

And no psychic ability has ever been proven impossible-sure discredited, and spoken highly against-like how athiests are spoken against-but yet no proof God exists...same goes with there being no proof psychic abilities can't exist-yet I've done them before-and that's the only reason I believe in them, if I just simply read they exist-I wouldn't believe them, not until I actually did it.

Keep an open mind to the irrational-because "If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it."  -Albert Einstein

 

The irrational can always be made rational at a later time-no matter how incredible the idea may seem.


MattShizzle
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Sigh*** I assign you to

Sigh*** I assign you to write 50,000 times "The burden of proof in every case is on the person who claims something does exist, and never on the person who claims it does not."

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No worries.  I really

No worries.  I really don't care if you use drugs or not.  You're just starting to sound like some of the hippies I know.  No intent to offend.

Have to agree with Matt on this one.

Try saying it the other way, and you'll see how ridiculous it is.  "The burden of disproof is on the nonbeliever."

First, you'd have to explain to the courts that we've been trying criminals all wrong.

Second, you'd have to disprove EVERYTHING that doesn't exist before you could begin talking about ANYTHING that does exist.  Obviously an impossible task.  Soooo... You don't get to use a lack of disproof as a proof.

Sorry.

 

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Sjet
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I'm merely saying to be

I'm merely saying to be open, these kinds of things can only be proven through self experience for now-until science has updated itself to a point that it can either prove-or disprove these things. For now the only truths with these things is what we believe in, however don't be close minded to other's idea's, instead always incorporate the small things you find interesting in their idea's, and find the small truths within them. You can't always rely on your own idea's, once you find yourself-you should then begin taking in other people's idea's more likely the opposite, learn them, study them, and become their idea's, and soon you now have a new perspective-and do this with many different idea's that seem beneficial to you-until you try them they will never be beneficial or bad for you-but never bad for you.

 

Also there is no proof that anything exists-there is no true proof. Like I said we could be people in some guy's dream in a coma. I simply seek the unknown, I never leave it alone either until I see it disproven.


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SOULS: GOT TWO THINGS TO

SOULS: GOT TWO THINGS TO SAY ABOUT SOULS.

1.  How can there be a soul for someone who has multiple personality disorder?  2, 3, 10 souls in one body? A soul cannot be in contradiction to itself if it's God's creation.

2.  How can anancephalic babies have a soul if they are born without most of their brain and are born, blind, deaf and without conscience.   A soul, then can obviously not be entering the body at conception.  For how can there be a soul wihtout a brain.  And..if you theists will say that an anacephalic baby can have a soul still..then you better becareful because if a bunch of organized cells can have a soul, then we have to re-examine plants.

 

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I honestly don't see why

I honestly don't see why you're upset with us.  We are open to any ideas.  We just want proof that they're true before we believe them.  If science hasn't proven it, we're not going to believe it on your word or anyone else's.

Being open to ideas is not the same as accepting ideas.  I don't believe in astral projection.  Even so, I won't say it's impossible that you've experienced it.  Maybe you have, and you're on the cutting edge of a new scientific breakthrough.  Great!  I wish you luck and many grants from big universities, but it would be irrational for me to "believe" in it without any evidence.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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