How to convert a christian - funny (I hope) and true
Offline This is a lesson on what to do when you find one doubting Christian:
So, there I am about a year ago tripping along happily deluded. Raised Christian, but there were always doubts. Since I am a good little rule follower, I learned to keep the questions to myself and ignore the nay-saying atheists that wanted to turn me into a communist. I remember wanting so much to have the strength of faith of those around me. I envied them for not having any doubts at all. But every time I tried, I would come up with more questions. So one day, I run into BGH and here is the condensed, edited version of the conversation:
jce: what are you doing?
BGH: reading about some religious lies
jce: (eye roll) why? Aren’t you catholic or something?
BGH: I was…and I wanted to believe, but there is no evidence to support any of it and now I am an Agnostic Atheist
jce: what the hell is that?
BGH: I don’t believe there is a supreme being, but if someone can provide proof then I will look at it and decide
jce: oh, that’s nice (sarcastically)
BGH: What do you believe?
jce: Well, I was raised Lutheran, but I don’t buy all of the crap they have tried to sell so I guess I am “spiritual, but not religious”.
BGH: Why are you spiritual? Do you believe there is a divine force out there guiding your life?
jce: well…no. I don’t think something is actually interfering with my life on a daily basis, more like…I don’t know
BGH: Do you believe you go to heaven when you die?
jce: well…no. Probably I will just turn into some kind of energy or something. I don’t know….why? What do you think happens?
BGH: Nothing – energy is a possibility, but in a scientific way. Back to the earth as fertilizer, or food or heat as my body decomposes. I am just sick of people not taking responsibility for their actions by attributing it to “god”. People work hard, good things happen and bad things happen and sometimes people fuck up…but it isn’t “god’s will”
Then he went on to explain some science stuff that I don’t understand and couldn’t explain back to you all if I tried. You may write to him and ask if you really want to know.
jce: But we are all different! Don’t you think we all have been given different gifts? Like what about doctors that can heal people. I can’t do that.
BGH: Yes, we are all different. Doctors work hard to be able to do that.
jce: What about where they got the interest or ability to do that? Don’t you think it is possible that a divine force is guiding them?
BGH: That is insulting to doctors. They work hard, study hard.
jce: (laughing) OK, OK! I get it!! Jeez!
(You all need to understand something at this point. For me to admit that BGH is RIGHT about anything actually causes me physical pain. We have butted heads before and we are good friends, but I am no match for him intellectually in the area of science and I know it but I am too stubborn to admit it!)
He went on to explain a few truths to me and if I remember correctly, my mouth was hanging open in a most unattractive way for about 5 minutes straight and it is possible that drool was coming out.
(later that day)
BGH: Here, read this and I want to know your thoughts on it.
jce: What is it?
BGH: Atheist Manifesto
jce: (eye roll) Oh brother!
Well, I read it and I did give him my thoughts….they were not very clever thoughts and I had nothing to substantiate them, but he politely listened anyway…and then refuted each one. Next, he introduced me to the rules of debate and I realized I had violated every one of them. I didn't talk to him for a while after that….well, that isn’t true exactly…I just did not talk to him about religion. He never once pushed it. He has always told me that he considers me to be very intelligent – other people tell me I am smart too, but for some reason they usually attach the word “ass” to it. The topic came up again when the Stem Cell Research issue hit the ballot and we discussed it at length. Slowly, I began doing my own research on religion and realized just how deluded I had been. Still unable to tell him to his face that he was right (I am warning you all if this happens to you – he will actually make you say it out loud.) I kept digging and looking for answers occasionally asking him a question or asking about different references. About a month ago I saw FFRF on the news and mentioned it to him. He showed me where I can find their podcast, which I promptly listened to and then told him about a couple of others – like Infidel Guy. He already subscribed to the others. (One of these days I swear I will tell him something he DOESN’T already know.) Then a couple of weeks ago he came in all excited about a debate he was having on a website he subscribes to. I listened while he explained it all to me and then out of curiosity asked him what is the name of the website so he showed me and….well, here I am.
To his credit, BGH did not laugh at me when he saw how excited and involved I was getting. Like Iruka, I could not have come at a better time in my life. Thank you, BGH for your continued patience and support and for answering my never-ending stream of questions. But mostly, thank you for giving me the courage to believe in myself and for helping me find my own voice. You are a good friend!
So, that is how it is done! Now, go find those doubting christians!
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A friend of mine at the moment who was brought up strongly Christian (but has always been the one making filthy inuendos and living the sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll lifestyle) has been gradually losing faith the last year or so. He's absolutely amazed by Dawkins and I'm lending him The GD. I think the only thing he's still holding onto is the morality of the bible. We've had some brilliant debates. I think he's finally coming over.
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That's one thing I found hard to let go of too, morality of the bible and of the religion. The reason for this is because it's also the morality of society, but you're brought up believing it came from religion instead. That's why these threads on morality against theists never get anywhere, where as the ones on evolution at least get the theist to give up and say "Well, I still believe in creationism" a lot of the time.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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JCE,
You were open minded enough to LISTEN to the arguments. You were open-minded enough to look for other answers and you were open-minded enough to admit you changed your mind.
The wool had been pulled over your eyes as it had been pulled over mine. You thought some belief was necessary, something you needed to have hope, to have a purpose. I was fooled the same way at one time.
You are very smart and had already pushed god to the outer edges of belief, to the margins. You called it spirituality. You just needed a nudge, whether you needed to know there were others with the same thoughts and eventually it led them not to believe, or you just needed to hear the arguments from someone you personally knew. You just needed a small bump and then you were well under your way to figuring things out.It's always heartening when people give up on belief. It makes me happy that my mate Ben is now an agnostic. I remember three years ago when we were 17 he reacted terribly when I questioned his faith. We didn't break the friendship, but there was one drunken evening when it almost came to blows.
I dunno, I've never really considered morality to come from religion so I guess I never had to let go of that. I'm from a very multi-cultural, multi-faith city and in fact the people who always seemed the least moral to me were the (very few) strongly religious types. I have a very special philosophical interest in ethics (I want to be a political and ethical philosopher as a career), have done from an early age even before I'd ever heard the words philosophy or ethics and I don't think even in my days of being a passively believing Christian (something I actually chose, my parents are agnostics) I ever considered morality to be derived from God or anything beyond ourselves. Morality is something beneficial to us as beings on this planet and it should be respected but not justified by some concept of a supernatural higher being.
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Thanks, jce, for a great (and entertaining) post. It's always interesting to hear the details of the final moments of a deconversion.
You were already questioning and luckily you had BGE there to give you the direction to find your answers.
We're all glad that some of the direction led you here!
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Susan, thank you! I, too, am glad to be among friends and I am learning a lot from reading the threads!
Jacob and Thingy - you are both right. The morality issue is tough due to years of brainwashing. The funny part is that once I accepted that I am responsible for me and always have been was like a weight being lifted off of my shoulders. No more guilt from doubting; no more invisible eyes boring holes into me. Just trusting in myself.
Susan, you should have seen her face when we were having the intitial discussion. She looked at me like I was speaking about being abducted by aliens or marrying Tammy Faye Baker. She handled it well though, she didn't close her mind and shut me out.
It's always great to find someone who can listen to reason even if it's at complete odds with what they've believed for a very long time.
That's one thing I find hard sometimes here on the forums. There's so much that just makes sense - common sense - even if you don't always understand all the big words and scientific presentations. It's hard to understand how people can completely shut down the logic center of their brain and stubbornly cling to some of the beliefs we've all seen posted herel
Now, BGH, about that marriage ceremony to Tammy Faye while being abducted by aliens, do you deny it?
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I agree, very sadly I agree wholeheartedly
No comment. LOL!
Susan, he told me he thought she was hot...that might at least partially explain the look on my face.
You are right, though, when you say it is hard to understand how people can be so completely irrational about it. Yes, I always had my doubts and maybe I was just plain shocked that someone from around here not only encouraged these doubts but could support the reasons for the doubts with logical arguments. It helped that he never pushed it (I am far to stubborn in nature to be convinced of anything that way) but instead patiently answered my questions and then I would go research more on my own. Not everyone handles a "wake-up" call like that but fortunately some do. A kinder, gentler call to reality. LOL
So the Lord Our Saviour used BGH to take you away from His loving
arms? God works in mysterious ways, I guess. Oh, and you weren't a real christian.
I just LOVE reading these stories. it gives me hope.
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing
Haha, nicely done. I wrote a blog on the same topic!
http://www.explonential.com/how-to-convert-a-theist-3-arguments-for-religion-rebutted/