Science vs. Religion... and the winner is...?

Drumworkshop
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Science vs. Religion... and the winner is...?

Well here you are, you clicked on the title of this post out of outrage or curiousity, but sorry to disappoint, thats not what this post is about Smiling  

 

Hey all, My Name's Matthew, *stands up in front of the room of people holding coffee cups ans stale donuts* .... and Im a christian. Now, I don't take that term lightly, but I believe there is a strong difference between a true christian and a "religious" christian, with all spiritually and biblical arguements and such put aside I am going to give you guys a brief history of my life up til now so you might see where Im coming from. 

I was born in 1983, into a very broken home, my father was a drug dealer and biker in the GTA ( Greater Toronto Area... yeah Im a Canadian.. eh) for the better part of 20 years and long story short he was a cocaine and herione addict, and my mom was a 420 smoker and we lived in the worst part of Toronto.  To move things along quickly through my early child hood things were not working out for the family, my parent managed *just barely* to stay together this entire time, but things went down hill more and more and we ended up moving out of Toronto and into a house that literally had no running water, barely a working furnace in the middle of January. So one day my dad after nearly ODing made a little heart felt prayer to God, and with in weeks he had managed to turn things around with the family, he became a christian etc... our family re-connected and become close, the drugs stopped along with the alcohol and they dug us out of a huge hole.  I was raised in a sheltered Christian home until highschool and always questioned my beliefs in God like every other teenager.  this reached the lowest just after I left for college and reallys tarted questioning things.. it took a while but I finally figured some things out on my own.

So with that said, and thank you for taking the little trip down memory lane with me... I believe christianity or any other religion if handled right is beneficial more then destructive.  The Destructive part in all this is religion, religion has killed millions in the name of God, 9/11 is part of a religious act and after watching the video it is definitely a form of terrorism.   The belief in something sparks hope and as that hope grows you begin to have faith in that ideal and a goal in life. Now I know there are other ways of handling life and getting goals but for some people this is what they choose to do.  I've seen christians on both ends of the spectrum. The ones who preach hell and fire if you don't convert, right across to the people who are truely peaceful and content with thier beliefs and faith and will not push it on other people but they inadvertantly use themselves as an example of a good christian life.  Even if there isnt Heaven or Hell, a God and the devil, and you say you can still be moral and live a good meaningful life without all that, I don't disagree with you, but there are guidelines already set out to help you achieve that to help you along the way, although flawed, So to bring you back to my history, I started doing my own little search, new age, drugs, alcohol, and just for me those were all fun at the time... but I felt I was losing a part of myself in that process, I started looking for my own views in God and christianity instead of accepting what every one else was telling me. I still drink, but in moderation... drugs..? once in a while, yes... do I listen to music like Slip Knot, Korn, and other bands like that..? Yes, yes I do.. and there are people even now that says my views are very far gone, but at this point in my life I've found a balance between my beliefs and my views in the subject of religion, friends who will oppose my opinion that are chrsitian with near fanaticism... I just nod my head and smile because I see the doubt in thier eyes, and thier arguements one that neither side will win.  So Personally in my life Christianity has made a huge positive impact in it and I am glad that my family are all christian, bacause at the rate things were going before the believe of God came into my family's home my father would probably be dead right now and I would most likely be far worse off then I am right now.

Like I said before everyone's view is off in some way, and some more then others... now the questions that are asked in this site...  "Can I proove that God does, or doesn't exist...? No, I can't  do I have an arguement to side with either the Theists, or the Athiests..? Nope, I've read up on both sides and there are flaws and holes in both, it all depends on who's point of view you are reading from.  Do I believe there is a God, yes. I do, and I honestly don't think he would pick any one religion in the world and tell all the others to go to Hell... excuse the pun.  It's just simply put illogical to judge every faith and religion and say yours is the one true path to heaven, especially when the majority of them were created hundreds or even thousands of years ago.  Science has evolved, philosophy has evolved, why can't religion, whish some would argue is stemmed from philosophy, but alas history repeats itself, and as religion once said science is a blasphemy ( and it still does to some extent, but it's voice has been dulled considerably) Science is taking it's turn and putting down religion.   So I personally don't think there will be any winners any time soon... Science will continue to growth and Christianity has already started to give birth to a new generation of christians who are more enlightened open to both sides, which is partly thanks you people like the amazing crew who started this page, the old generation will oppose, where the new one will stand enlightened, on both sides.  

 

So there is my little rant for the site, I hope it was enjoyable for you at least to read, and hopefully will make some sense, and wasn't to repetitive to previous arguements and statements made on the website, and hopefully I put this in the right category.... any opinions or clarification you want I'd love to hear it !

Have Great night, and sorry for any spelling mistakes in this post


Magus
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When one says I don't need

When one says I don't need evidence for my beliefs it becomes irrational.   When someone tells you god said to kill people and I have faith in my god.  What can you do?  They have personal experience convincing them they are hearing the word of god, and you might have personal experience that what you believe is god.  You can try all you want to convince them that it isn't god, but when they don't need evidence for a belief why should they believe you?  Why do you think your faith is any more rational than this persons?

Sounds made up...
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Well on the one hand,

Well on the one hand, science gave us computers and the Internet, revolutionized communications, unravelled the genome, uncovered the history of life, put human beings on the moon, invented central air conditioning, created weather satellites and doppler radar to track hurricanes and tornados, eradicated smallpox, discovered antibiotics and other life-saving technologies, and probed the very fabric of the universe itself.

Religion gave us a lot of art and songs though. Oh, and charities. But then again I don't think charities are really exclusive to religion. So, I dunno. I mean, it looks like science has the clear lead, but then again some of those hymns are pretty catchy. 

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Magus,,,, the meaning of the

Magus,,,, the meaning of the word "faith" is said in the dictionary as this: "belief that is not based on proof", so I'm not here to offer any proof to you guys about it. what I was trying to address in my post is that every one's view on Christianity as well as science is faulted in some way.. If someone told me that God told them that we should go kill people, I myself would not do it obviously. I do understand in the past that is not the case, people have killed for every religion, which in the long run far from irrational.   Science, on the other hand has killed as well, for the greater good.   Though not near as much as religion..  but modern science compared to religion is still young. Give it time.   when you said "When one says I don't need evidence for my beliefs it becomes irrational" Then you are straying along a way of thinking that is closed minded, 


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Drumworkshop

Drumworkshop wrote:
Magus,,,, the meaning of the word "faith" is said in the dictionary as this: "belief that is not based on proof", so I'm not here to offer any proof to you guys about it.

Your right you are not offering proof. Which means your claims that about god is just as valid as the man who kills for his god. Which makes it not good enough to use as a valid way to ascertain truth.

Drumworkshop wrote:

what I was trying to address in my post is that every one's view on Christianity as well as science is faulted in some way..

When you say science are you referring to scientist, the scientific method, or something else?

Drumworkshop wrote:

If someone told me that God told them that we should go kill people, I myself would not do it obviously.

That doesn't answer my questions. The question isn't would you do as he does. The question is what makes your faith more valid than the killers?

Drumworkshop wrote:

I do understand in the past that is not the case, people have killed for every religion, which in the long run far from irrational. Science, on the other hand has killed as well, for the greater good. Though not near as much as religion.. but modern science compared to religion is still young. Give it time.

Science makes no claims on morality.

Drumworkshop wrote:
when you said "When one says I don't need evidence for my beliefs it becomes irrational" Then you are straying along a way of thinking that is closed minded,

Closed minded is when you are offered proof to the opposition of your believe and you still retain them.

 

[Edit added the word "and"] 

 

Sounds made up...
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Drumworkshop
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So Jeremiah, You stated just

So Jeremiah, You stated just a few of the things that science has given us in say the past 50 or so years, and I am not saying it hasn't benefitted man kind in any way, and you really under played religion quiet a bit...

 

"Religion gave us a lot of art and songs though. Oh, and charities. But then again I don't think charities are really exclusive to religion. So, I dunno. I mean, it looks like science has the clear lead, but then again some of those hymns are pretty catchy."

 

Religion, has inspired great amounts of beauty in the world, it's sparked the imagination of man through the millenium.  The stories of greek, and Nod Gods, christianity, I minored in art in college, and religion was the beginning of culture. Through the culture it sparked man's imagination, and because humans have free will they were set on a path of discovery, and like religion it branched off into various paths. So it's kinda pointless to monitor who's winning either science or religion through achievements.  My point is that neither will win, or lose.   


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Hmmm unless I am missing

Hmmm unless I am missing something here, I did not want to turn this into an arguement on whether not my faith is better or more valid then others, or if God exists...  Lets not turn this into an argument about my faith, or if it is any better then a killers. In my original message it may of come out that I was a bit sarcastic, but it's sites like this that help challenge and open up a person's mind, which I am truely thankful for.   I was referring to science in general all the way back to when people believed in chemistry the only elements were Earth, water, fire, and air.. and science adapts and evolves, grows and explains more and more every day.  I am trying to bring out that religion is starting to adapt too,  thats all

 

 


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Drumworkshop wrote: Hmmm

Drumworkshop wrote:

Hmmm unless I am missing something here, I did not want to turn this into an arguement on whether not my faith is better or more valid then others, or if God exists... Lets not turn this into an argument about my faith, or if it is any better then a killers. In my original message it may of come out that I was a bit sarcastic, but it's sites like this that help challenge and open up a person's mind, which I am truely thankful for. I was referring to science in general all the way back to when people believed in chemistry the only elements were Earth, water, fire, and air.. and science adapts and evolves, grows and explains more and more every day. I am trying to bring out that religion is starting to adapt too, thats all

  

Interesting point, it leads one to ask next: we can understand why science adapts: It is is very nature. But why does religion adapt? And it is really a part of its nature to do so? 

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  Todangst, I like that

 

Todangst, I like that question,  I think people don't want religion to adapt, because of pride, if one were to evolve religion, they would be saying to the world that they were wrong and what they were preaching wasnt the complete truth like they said, but in all logic something that was created thousand's of years ago and if it never adapts it will die away with the ages. This is seen with many religions, the one's like that adapt to the times, although not always for the best are the ones that stick around.  Even today christianity has been adapting, denomitions are splitting apart more and more, and you are seeing more 'Non-denominational' churches springing up all over. So I think it is religions nature to adapt, but man's stubbornness and pride is stunting that growth. 


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Drumworkshop wrote: So

Drumworkshop wrote:
So Jeremiah, You stated just a few of the things that science has given us in say the past 50 or so years, and I am not saying it hasn't benefitted man kind in any way, and you really under played religion quiet a bit...

 

"Religion gave us a lot of art and songs though. Oh, and charities. But then again I don't think charities are really exclusive to religion. So, I dunno. I mean, it looks like science has the clear lead, but then again some of those hymns are pretty catchy." 

Religion, has inspired great amounts of beauty in the world, it's sparked the imagination of man through the millenium. The stories of greek, and Nod Gods, christianity, I minored in art in college, and religion was the beginning of culture. Through the culture it sparked man's imagination, and because humans have free will they were set on a path of discovery, and like religion it branched off into various paths. So it's kinda pointless to monitor who's winning either science or religion through achievements. My point is that neither will win, or lose.

 Yes, I fully admit that religion has inspired beauty. Some of it is quite nice, actually. Bach's organ music. The Sistine Chapel. Dante's Inferno (although I mostly like that one to see what sick stuff Dante came up with as punishment). But even in this regard there is a fundamental distinction between science and religion.

However useful religion is for inspiring imagination and art and beauty, you do not need religion to do so. It just helps sometimes. You can find all the things that religion inspires being inspired by non-religious things. Not just atheists, but theists who, for whatever reason, didn't have God on their minds when they started writing poetry. Science -- or at least non-religious, secular culture -- can still account for art and beauty and inspiration. But the reverse doesn't hold. All the things I listed would never have been discovered by religion. Discoveries of a scientific nature require cultures to adapt to new knowledge, and even that they desire new knowledge in the first place. But religions, all over the world and all over history, have always held to the twin tenets of faith and dogma: "evidence is trumped by intuition and even if it's not we won't change anyway". Theistic scientists, like the priest who hypothesized an inflationary universe (i.e. the Big Bang), may be inspired by a desire to learn more about God's universe, but they still do so within the secular framework of science.

So that's why I downplayed religion's benefits: because they're not exclusive to religion. But scientific discovery can only be done in a rational, non-dogmatic framework, and so the benefits of science could only have been revealed through science. 

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Drumworkshop

Drumworkshop wrote:

 

Todangst, I like that question, I think people don't want religion to adapt, because of pride, if one were to evolve religion, they would be saying to the world that they were wrong and what they were preaching wasnt the complete truth like they said, (snip)

Adaptation happens when a "better" way is found. In the case of religions that have set themselves up as the perfect and inerrant interpretation of an omnimax creator, this is by definition impossible. Religions that ascribe to perfection cannot permit adaptation, because that would be a direct contradiction of the premises of the religion.

Quote:
but in all logic something that was created thousand's of years ago and if it never adapts it will die away with the ages.

This sentiment is inaccurate. See: sharks. They have been virtually unchanged for millions of years. They haven't adapted because they don't need to: their current form is just about perfect for their niche, despite all the changes that have happened around them.

Quote:
This is seen with many religions, the one's like that adapt to the times, although not always for the best are the ones that stick around. Even today christianity has been adapting, denomitions are splitting apart more and more, and you are seeing more 'Non-denominational' churches springing up all over. So I think it is religions nature to adapt, but man's stubbornness and pride is stunting that growth.

Religions become prevalent because they are somehow useful. What we need to ask is: useful for whom? Useful how? Are they still actually useful, or are they simply existing on past successes?

I also wanted to ask you a question from your first post in this thread. You said:

Quote:
Do I believe there is a God, yes. I do, and I honestly don't think he would pick any one religion in the world and tell all the others to go to Hell... excuse the pun. It's just simply put illogical to judge every faith and religion and say yours is the one true path to heaven, especially when the majority of them were created hundreds or even thousands of years ago.

This prompts me to ask: then why are you Christian? If by your own admission it is no better and no more valid than any other belief system, why don't you shave your head and wear saffron robes, or go hungry to the desert, or cast spells for a better harvest?

You then went on to say:

Quote:
Science has evolved, philosophy has evolved, why can't religion, whish some would argue is stemmed from philosophy, but alas history repeats itself, and as religion once said science is a blasphemy ( and it still does to some extent, but it's voice has been dulled considerably) Science is taking it's turn and putting down religion.

Here's the problem: from this point forward, god can only be diminished. As scientific reasearch continues to find naturalistic explanations for things previously believed to be in the realm of religion, worship becomes more and more, well, pointless from one standpoint. After a while, one has to ask "if all these things that people a few millennia ago believed was the work of a god or gods is now understoond to be perfectly natural, does a god or gods even exist?"

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Quote: Adaptation happens

Quote:
Adaptation happens when a "better" way is found. In the case of religions that have set themselves up as the perfect and inerrant interpretation of an omnimax creator, this is by definition impossible. Religions that ascribe to perfection cannot permit adaptation, because that would be a direct contradiction of the premises of the religion.

 I agree, and religions have found a way around this, and don't get me wrong guys, I strongly believe there are many flaws to religion,  I agree that it is impossible for a religion who thinks thier are perfect would definitely die out, because there would be to many holes revieled and the people would stop believing.

 

Quote:
Adaptation happens when a "better" way is found. In the case of religions that have set themselves up as the perfect and inerrant interpretation of an omnimax creator, this is by definition impossible. Religions that ascribe to perfection cannot permit adaptation, because that would be a direct contradiction of the premises of the religion.
 

I apologize Shikko I did not specify, I was merely referring to religions, not everything in general, I should have been more specific in my response.

Quote:

Religions become prevalent because they are somehow useful. What we need to ask is: useful for whom? Useful how? Are they still actually useful, or are they simply existing on past successes?

Religions are useful to some people, yes, like in my first post, religion did help save my family, and put it back together.  Though, do not get me wrong, I am not saying it was some divine intervention, or any of that, but it put order and restored peace back into the lives of people I hold dearest to myself. I know you could say that we could have gotten a family therapist, or my father could have gone into re-hab, or many other things that did not have to involve religion. Religion though in this case managed to let my family heal itself, my father stopped the drugs and got out of the life still. So in this case it gave us all a focus on something, to lend us strength where we didnt think we had it in ourselve, it brought out the best in us in this case.   Again, I am not saying there was anything supernatural in this I am just saying it bonded us all together, letting us deal with things  on a level we had never experienced in the secular world.  which leads me to answer the following question

 

Quote:

then why are you Christian? If by your own admission it is no better and no more valid than any other belief system, why don't you shave your head and wear saffron robes, or go hungry to the desert, or cast spells for a better harvest?

I chose Christianity because I had roots in it, it was something I was comfortable with, and it helped me a lot along the way. 

Quote:

Here's the problem: from this point forward, god can only be diminished. As scientific reasearch continues to find naturalistic explanations for things previously believed to be in the realm of religion, worship becomes more and more, well, pointless from one standpoint. After a while, one has to ask "if all these things that people a few millennia ago believed was the work of a god or gods is now understoond to be perfectly natural, does a god or gods even exist?"

I will be doing some research into the percentage of people in the world who are christian, and try and trace it back if possible for the past 20 years to see if there is a climb, or decline, I would use all religions, but since christianity is the biggest religion in terms of population then, I will go it, unless there are any objections..? So can I get back to you on that in a day or two when I have some time to look into it Shikko...?