Equal Probablity

migfart
Posts: 3
Joined: 2007-04-24
User is offlineOffline
Equal Probablity

First off, I'm an atheist. With that said, I have a friend who I debate the existence of God(or anything supernatural for that matter) quite frequently. What he always seems to resort to in the end is a very simple yet clearly wrongheaded response, which I will lay out as clearly as I can.

 He claims that due to our "poor" sensory organs which do not necessarily represent a clear reality, all things are equally probable.  He goes on to say then that all the God's in the history of mankind are equally probable, along with any other situation that may seem ludicrious to anyone else. ( A Matrix Scenario is one he brings up frequently) Basically, he keeps claims that nothing can be known for sure because we are a primitive creature whose senses are not reliable.

I mention to him that our given senses of perception, along with our thoughts, are all we have to go by, and that by using our powers of observation and the senses we have been given is the only way we've made progress and arrived as the conclusions of modern science. He agrees, but states again that nothing is known for sure, and all things remain equally probable.

If anyone could help me further this discussion I would appreciate it, for I do believe that their are greater or "absolute" truths. Cheers.


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote: He claims that due

Quote:
He claims that due to our "poor" sensory organs which do not necessarily represent a clear reality, all things are equally probable.

Not just false, but pretty damn stupid.  Our sensory organs don't really have much to do with it.  There are two issues here:

1) Are our senses reliable?

Clearly, they are only reliable to a certain degree.  However, based on induction, and the literally billions of bits of data that we have consistently received through our sense organs, we can reasonably conclude that our senses are reliable within their limitations. 

2) Are all things equally probable?

A very basic understanding of probability will demonstrate that this is clearly not so.  If we flip a coin ten times, the odds are not even that the division will be 5:5.  If your friend believes this, tell him I'll bet him $100 on each of 100 series of ten coin flips.  I get everything but 5:5, and he gets 5:5.

Quote:
He goes on to say then that all the God's in the history of mankind are equally probable, along with any other situation that may seem ludicrious to anyone else.

He's partially correct.  All the gods are equally probable, which is to say that they're so staggeringly improbable as to be discarded as legitimate possibilities.

You see, for us to calculate probability, we must have evidence of the existence of the thing in question.  For instance, if I wanted to know the probability of a three legged frog being born, I could theoretically examine frog DNA, calculate reproduction rates within a given population, and predict such a thing with some degree of accuracy.

Gods are not properly defined, so there's no way to even begin calculating their probability.  Based on prior experience with things for which there is zero evidence, we can then say that 1) based on the fact that there's no definition of god, and 2) In the history of science, there's never been an example of a thing without identity existing, and 3) In the history of science, the actual existence of things for which there was previously no evidence has been extraordinarily rare, 

There is an astronomically small chance that any god exists.

 

Quote:
Basically, he keeps claims that nothing can be known for sure because we are a primitive creature whose senses are not reliable.

Basically, he's trying to reduce you to nihilism, which is a losing battle.  We know for certain that we exist, or to be more precise, any conscious, sentient being knows that it exists, for existence is axiomatic.  To question existence, we must grant it.

From existence, we can deduce a couple of other axioms.  From these axioms, we can begin induction.  While induction is not 100% certain, it does encompass varying degrees of certainty -- which can be deduced with certainty.  In other words, I can deductively prove mathematical concepts, and math is the foundation for probability.

 

Quote:
He agrees, but states again that nothing is known for sure, and all things remain equally probable.

Nihilism is the last refuge of apologists who have nothing productive to say.

In essence, they're trying to turn the tables on atheists.. have their cake and eat it to.  Out of one side of their mouth, they will say, "You can't disprove god, so he might exist."  Out of the other side, they say, "You can't prove anything, so god might exist."

In other words, they are trying to create a philosophical loophole through which god might fit, but in doing so, they have denied the very foundation of philosophy, and can say nothing of anything.... In still more words, if they are truly to hold to nihilism, then their own words are admittedly meaningless, so their arguments and beliefs are completely unjustified.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


evil religion
evil religion's picture
Posts: 232
Joined: 2006-10-20
User is offlineOffline
migfart wrote: First off,

migfart wrote:

First off, I'm an atheist. With that said, I have a friend who I debate the existence of God(or anything supernatural for that matter) quite frequently. What he always seems to resort to in the end is a very simple yet clearly wrongheaded response, which I will lay out as clearly as I can.

He claims that due to our "poor" sensory organs which do not necessarily represent a clear reality, all things are equally probable.

Errrr no. This is just completely wrong. If it where correct we could not make any useful decisions about the world. 

Quote:
He goes on to say then that all the God's in the history of mankind are equally probable,

errr no again. The xtian God is far less probable than the gods of antiquety which where powerful but not omnipotent. Abilities such as omnipotence are logcially impossible, Zeus throwing thunder bolts whilst highly unlikely is not logically impossible. Thus Zeus is more likely to exist than Jehova. 

Quote:
along with any other situation that may seem ludicrious to anyone else. ( A Matrix Scenario is one he brings up frequently)

Thats just plain silly. Its a question of evidence. Evidence does not have to be absolute in order to provide us with good clues as to whcih situation is a correct interpretation of reality. 

Quote:
Basically, he keeps claims that nothing can be known for sure because we are a primitive creature whose senses are not reliable.

Absoluet knowledge is very hard to achieve I agree. But this does not mean we can know nothing. It just means that we dont know most things absolutely there is a difference. There is a sliding scale of confidence that we place in ideas and this increase with the more evidecne we have supporting the idea in question. The weight of evidence is how we decide whether the idea is a good one or not. The fact that this evidence is very rarely utterly conclusive does not in any way dimish using evidence as very useful decision making tool. 

Quote:
I mention to him that our given senses of perception, along with our thoughts, are all we have to go by, and that by using our powers of observation and the senses we have been given is the only way we've made progress and arrived as the conclusions of modern science. He agrees, but states again that nothing is known for sure, and all things remain equally probable.

He is simply wrong here. The probability of a thing is determined by the evidence available supporting or contradicting that thing. 

Quote:
If anyone could help me further this discussion I would appreciate it, for I do believe that their are greater or "absolute" truths. Cheers.

I tend to agree that there are true facts about the world. I agree that there is an objective world with properties indapendant of us. The problem is knowing when we have discovered these facts. Observation is imperfect but it does allow us to gather evidence as to the nature of reality. We can test our ideas gleamed in this way by testing them through applciation of the idea. If the idea works well and is useful then its passes the test if it does not work then it fails. An example would be the idea that I can walk through a solid wall, on testing this idea is very quickly show to be a bad idea, it does not correspond to how the world actually is. 

 


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote: The xtian God is far

Quote:
The xtian God is far less probable than the gods of antiquety which where powerful but not omnipotent.

To be precise, all gods who are described as supernatural are equally improbable, for supernatural precludes any further discussion.

Without bringing the lack of ontology into the picture, your statement is potentially better. However, we have to remember that some known quantities are necessary before we can make even rough probabilistic predictions.

Quote:
Zeus throwing thunder bolts whilst highly unlikely is not logically impossible. Thus Zeus is more likely to exist than Jehova.

Well.... there's logically impossible (like married bachelor), physically impossible (like perpetual motion) and biologically impossible (which depends on the time line of evolution as well as the limitations of DNA, environment, etc...)

Impossible is still impossible. If we are to use the word literally, any impossibility is still impossible, so the odds are technically 0.

Even accounting for the somewhat dubious use of Bayes Theorem to get the odds that "the sun will not rise tomorrow," we're still so close to zero as to be indistinguishable... more digits in the numerator than atoms in the universe.

Quote:
The fact that this evidence is very rarely utterly conclusive does not in any way dimish using evidence as very useful decision making tool.

Deduction is the only completely certain conclusion. Literally anything else is at least slightly uncertain.

Conclusive, on the other hand, happens relatively often. Anyone who's made it out of first year philosophy can demonstrate that we must act (and some would say we must believe) that the universe we observe really exists. If it does, then it is external. If it is external, then we can make observations about it that will be consistent with the observations of others, yada, yada, yada.

When something is 99.999999999999999999999999999999999% certain, it's conclusive. That happens pretty often in life, and relatively often in science.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Cpt_pineapple
atheist
Posts: 5492
Joined: 2007-04-12
User is offlineOffline
Yeah, you just can't apply

Yeah, you just can't apply discrete probability to random things.


evil religion
evil religion's picture
Posts: 232
Joined: 2006-10-20
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
The xtian God is far less probable than the gods of antiquety which where powerful but not omnipotent.

To be precise, all gods who are described as supernatural are equally improbable, for supernatural precludes any further discussion.

No not really. I see where you are coming from I really do but there is a difference between logical inconstiency and invoking bullshit terms like supernatural. A logically inconsistent God is not possible in any concievable world let alone this one. A supernatural God could concievably exist in some world. Its just that all the evidence points to the world simply not being like that as such we can disregard supernatural "explanations" as being exceptionally unlikely to be a true account of the world.

Quote:
Without bringing the lack of ontology into the picture, your statement is potentially better. However, we have to remember that some known quantities are necessary before we can make even rough probabilistic predictions.

I'd agree that calculating the probability of an unknow property is impossibel but we could beging by looking at the way the world actually is and form an estimate of probability that way. The fact that all "supernatural" explanations thus far proposed have actually turned out to have entirely natural causes is itself a rather strong inductive argument against supenatural explanations in general. We could use this to form some kind of porbability against.

Quote:
Quote:
Zeus throwing thunder bolts whilst highly unlikely is not logically impossible. Thus Zeus is more likely to exist than Jehova.

Well.... there's logically impossible (like married bachelor), physically impossible (like perpetual motion) and biologically impossible (which depends on the time line of evolution as well as the limitations of DNA, environment, etc...)

Impossible is still impossible. If we are to use the word literally, any impossibility is still impossible, so the odds are technically 0.

For all practical purposes I would agree that Zues throwing thuder bolts (physically impossible) is as unlikely as an omnipotent being (logical impossability) BUT there is a technical difference between the two.

Quote:
Even accounting for the somewhat dubious use of Bayes Theorem to get the odds that "the sun will not rise tomorrow," we're still so close to zero as to be indistinguishable... more digits in the numerator than atoms in the universe.

Indeed

Quote:
Quote:
The fact that this evidence is very rarely utterly conclusive does not in any way dimish using evidence as very useful decision making tool.

Deduction is the only completely certain conclusion. Literally anything else is at least slightly uncertain.

Only if the deduction rests upon premises which are themselves certain. We can have these certain deductions within systems such as mathematics. But when it comes to discussing stuff that is out there in the world then this does not happen much which was my point. As some stage prety much all of our deductions about the external world rest upon empirically gleamed facts as such they are open to error also.

Quote:
Conclusive, on the other hand, happens relatively often. Anyone who's made it out of first year philosophy can demonstrate that we must act (and some would say we must believe) that the universe we observe really exists. If it does, then it is external. If it is external, then we can make observations about it that will be consistent with the observations of others, yada, yada, yada.

When something is 99.999999999999999999999999999999999% certain, it's conclusive. That happens pretty often in life, and relatively often in science.

We are playing with sematics here. My use of the word conclusive above meant 100% certain. I agree that if we take it to mean very very likely then it is relativly common. But that 0.0000001% makes all the difference. But we are actually in agreement here.


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote:

Quote:
A supernatural God could concievably exist in some world. Its just that all the evidence points to the world simply not being like that as such we can disregard supernatural "explanations" as being exceptionally unlikely to be a true account of the world.

The problem is that in another universe, any being that exists will be natural within its own environment. In other words, within any universe, "natural" will be "those things which exist in the universe."

If, as some have postulated, a being can exist somehow in multiple universes, or multiple dimensions, or in some other sci-fi way, then that being must also be a natural part of the universes, for it exists within them. Simply put, anything which exists is natural. More precisely, anything which exists has identity, which necessitates limits. Limits are literally a definition.

Supernatural, then, is always a dodge. It's a way to try to use a semantic game to sneak something into existence. It always fails. It must, for supernatural literally has, and cannot have, a referent.

Quote:
I'd agree that calculating the probability of an unknow property is impossibel but we could beging by looking at the way the world actually is and form an estimate of probability that way.

If we were to define an infintessimally small segment of time, and use the total number of those segments [edit: changed "seconds" to "segments"] since the formation of the universe as the numerator, and that number plus one as the denominator, we could come up with odds that the laws of physics would change in the next instant, but we might as well go hunting snipes.

The number of instants would so outstrip the number of atoms in the universe that we would have to spend millenia waiting for our supercomputer to finish writing out the equation.

Quote:
The fact that all "supernatural" explanations thus far proposed have actually turned out to have entirely natural causes is itself a rather strong inductive argument against supenatural explanations in general. We could use this to form some kind of porbability against.

The argument that supernatural cannot exist is not inductive. It's deductive, in the same way that the impossibility of married bachelors is deductive. By definition, supernatural is impossible.

We can either change the definition of the word, or accept the impossibility of it having a referent.

Quote:
For all practical purposes I would agree that Zues throwing thuder bolts (physically impossible) is as unlikely as an omnipotent being (logical impossability) BUT there is a technical difference between the two.

Hehe... is there really a difference between zero and zero? Don't answer that. Really. Don't.

Quote:
Only if the deduction rests upon premises which are themselves certain. We can have these certain deductions within systems such as mathematics. But when it comes to discussing stuff that is out there in the world then this does not happen much which was my point. As some stage prety much all of our deductions about the external world rest upon empirically gleamed facts as such they are open to error also.

Precisely. However, it has been demonstrated that there are potential links between induction and deduction that give weight to induction's practical certainty. Since pure mathematical probabilities are deductively certain, we can say that our degree of certainty with regard to the reliability of our data is exactly the same degree of certainty that our probability assessment is correct.

Also, because deduction is certain, and induction must rely on the deductive certainty of the fundamental axioms -- existence, noncontradiction, and the excluded middle -- we can say that induction relies on deduction. In other words, we didn't just pop induction out of thin air. It rests on a solid foundation of philosophical and ontological certainty.

Quote:
We are playing with sematics here. My use of the word conclusive above meant 100% certain. I agree that if we take it to mean very very likely then it is relativly common. But that 0.0000001% makes all the difference. But we are actually in agreement here.

No sweat. I'm not so much trying to correct you as I am trying to make sure the OP has a firm grasp on the issue.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


JeremiahSmith
Posts: 361
Joined: 2006-11-25
User is offlineOffline
migfart wrote: He agrees,

migfart wrote:
He agrees, but states again that nothing is known for sure, and all things remain equally probable.

Punch him in the face really hard. When he gets mad at you, and he will, tell him that by his logic it's equally probable that he got punched by George Washington, or God, or a leprechaun, or the entire original broadway cast of "Cats". Then ask why he's getting mad at you when he has twelve billion other potential suspects.

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


shikko
Posts: 448
Joined: 2007-05-23
User is offlineOffline
migfart wrote: First off,

migfart wrote:

First off, I'm an atheist. With that said, I have a friend who I debate the existence of God(or anything supernatural for that matter) quite frequently. What he always seems to resort to in the end is a very simple yet clearly wrongheaded response, which I will lay out as clearly as I can.

That's because he doesn't want to admit openly that he made a mistake and was wrong. People will generally look for any way out of a situation OTHER than saying "yeah, I screwed that up. My mistake."

Quote:

He claims that due to our "poor" sensory organs which do not necessarily represent a clear reality, all things are equally probable.

Really?

Ask him how many outcomes there are when flipping a fair coin. If he says "two" he just proved his own assertion wrong.

Quote:

He goes on to say then that all the God's in the history of mankind are equally probable, along with any other situation that may seem ludicrious to anyone else. ( A Matrix Scenario is one he brings up frequently) Basically, he keeps claims that nothing can be known for sure because we are a primitive creature whose senses are not reliable.

He sounds like someone who read the first two chapters of a popular book on multiverse theory and then got bored or confused. He's right about gods all being equally probable; it's just that the probability is roughly epsilon.

Quote:

I mention to him that our given senses of perception, along with our thoughts, are all we have to go by, and that by using our powers of observation and the senses we have been given is the only way we've made progress and arrived as the conclusions of modern science. He agrees, but states again that nothing is known for sure, and all things remain equally probable.

Cogito ergo sum, eh? He's contradicting himself if he agrees "but...". If we can be certain we exist, that invalidates his "can't know anything for sure" argument. You can also be certain that 1+1 will always equal 2, that the diameter of a circle will always be smaller than its circumference by a fixed factor (in flat space), and so on. He's looking for loopholes to believe what he wants to.

Quote:

If anyone could help me further this discussion I would appreciate it, for I do believe that their are greater or "absolute" truths. Cheers.

If you want to give him a source of universal truths, hand him a math book. Preferably when he's not stoned. Smiling

--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
migfart wrote: First off,

migfart wrote:
First off, I'm an atheist. With that said, I have a friend who I debate the existence of God(or anything supernatural for that matter) quite frequently. What he always seems to resort to in the end is a very simple yet clearly wrongheaded response, which I will lay out as clearly as I can.

I know how frustrating it can be to argue with people that constantly resort to red herrings and other bullshit.
migfart wrote:
He claims that due to our "poor" sensory organs which do not necessarily represent a clear reality, all things are equally probable.  He goes on to say then that all the God's in the history of mankind are equally probable, along with any other situation that may seem ludicrious to anyone else. ( A Matrix Scenario is one he brings up frequently) Basically, he keeps claims that nothing can be known for sure because we are a primitive creature whose senses are not reliable.

Probability has been dealt with, but I see a couple more problems. He's taking the limitations of sensory input (that we experience "light" rather than the fundamental particles of it, for instance) to mean that anything goes. There are conclusions that can be drawn from evidence, and those can later be falsified by further information, but at no point did the topic jump the rails into a probabilistic clusterfuck. The likelihood that an '89 Chevy will start on a cold day competes with the probability it won't. Without knowing the details (as in being able to experience the mechanical parts and know if they're hitting their mark at the time), it's a black box we can only deal with probabalistically. But it doesn't equally compete with the probability of it morphing into a sparkling unicorn when the key is turned.
migfart wrote:
I mention to him that our given senses of perception, along with our thoughts, are all we have to go by, and that by using our powers of observation and the senses we have been given is the only way we've made progress and arrived as the conclusions of modern science. He agrees, but states again that nothing is known for sure, and all things remain equally probable.

Even if the argument were made, say, for "all possible universes," it doesn't translate into a suspension of the brute dynamics at work in our world. Even if we find that the fundamental nature of reality is counterintuitive, it doesn't affect our ultimate experience of it.
migfart wrote:
If anyone could help me further this discussion I would appreciate it, for I do believe that their are greater or "absolute" truths. Cheers.


KSMB
Scientist
KSMB's picture
Posts: 702
Joined: 2006-08-03
User is offlineOffline
migfart wrote: Basically,

migfart wrote:
Basically, he keeps claims that nothing can be known for sure because we are a primitive creature whose senses are not reliable.

If he really thinks this, then how does he know what he read about god in any book or ever heard about god is accurate? How would he then trust his own decision to believe in god if all the information he has ever received is not reliable?