Star of David to be put up with a Holocaust Memorial in Ohio

Cpt_pineapple
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Star of David to be put up with a Holocaust Memorial in Ohio

Came across this on Freethought blogs

 

 

http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2013/08/05/that-ohio-holocaust-memorial/

 

Are the FFRF and AA right, or are they overreacting?

 

 


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re :: Misc See :: Image

re :: Misc


III

These two were frequently used symbols of Judaism and the Jewish people before the modern state, See :: Image while it's up!

This is Timing Out so leave it there . . .


Brian37
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Instead of a label specific

Instead of a label specific museum, I'd have an inclusive museum to the entire history of human cruelty not just the Holocaust. When I was in Japan I went to a museum depicting their history of suffering, mostly at the hands of the Chinese. Those nations are not exactly friends.

Blacks have been victims  andNative Americans, and so on. Jews should not hide behind their suffering to avoid criticism of any kind.

Our capacity as a species to be compassionate or cruel and brutal has never been label specific. All human conflict is the result of our evolutionary tribalism.

To me the lesson of the Holocaust should not be "Don't pick on Jews". Just like the lesson of slavery should not be "Dont own blacks". The lesson of both is universal "This is what humans should not do to each other".

 

Ann Frank is one of my heros but that does not mean today's Israel is squeaky clean, nor does it mean other cultures have not been victims of oppression or brutality. Human suffering should be the message, not a billboard used to promote tribalism.

It is also why I get a lip twitch when I hear atheists say "When we become a majority we will treat you better". NO that is utopia bullshit. We have never ceased to be the same species and have always had and will always have the capability for BOTH compassion and cruelty.

 

 

 

 

 

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It is wrong because it

It is wrong because it advances the suggestion that only jews suffered the holocaust, which is patently false. I'm quite tired of the jews monopolising suffering during the holocaust. If the star of david is to be placed there, then symbolism for ALL those who were persecuted by the nazi's should be placed there. And none should be more prevalent than the others.

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Brian37
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Vastet wrote:It is wrong

Vastet wrote:
It is wrong because it advances the suggestion that only jews suffered the holocaust, which is patently false. I'm quite tired of the jews monopolising suffering during the holocaust. If the star of david is to be placed there, then symbolism for ALL those who were persecuted by the nazi's should be placed there. And none should be more prevalent than the others.

 

The entire death toll on all sides military and civilian totaled 50 million. Having said that it was still wrong for Hitler to scapegoat and target Jews which he did do. My only argument against a monochromatic museum is that it does ignore that our species has been both capable of compassion and brutality. The Jews of WW2 understood this. I do not think most Jews today do. But America also murdered innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki not to mention the illegal internment of Japanese Citizens during WW2.

 

There is no virtue of the oppressed. Throughout human evolution you see power shift and once the oppressed can become the oppressor. The lesson of the Holocaust isn't "pro Jew". It is the same lesson humanity should learn from slavery and the suffering of the Palestinians and Native Americans.

It is one thing to say "you hurt me". It is another way after the fact to hide behind it to excuse your own harm of others.

 

Like I said, if we are going to talk about human suffering, then any monument, or reminder in the forum of a Museum should be inclusive, because evolution has always produced both compassion and brutality.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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↑ Supplemental -- Off Topic


 

  OFF-Topic ;  Repeating This is alittle OFF-Topic ::


  Seeing you two are about, I had better mention (sooner or later). Somebody who shall remain nameless, only briefly, has be systematically disabling a bunch of my posted images. A person whose integrity and credibility are in question at this point. A utterly half-asleep individual needing 12cc of 5 grams of coffee up the azz, until they (he) wakes up, for a change. Whose stooped to sending me digital notes under the table of late (not smart).

  I had an image, as a memorable example, of the interior of the Catholic cathedral with flames rising up. Context is determinative of meaning. In the post it had mentioned two other specific elements about Hell. It tied into the topic very nicely. Most Roman Catholics were blogging about the guy you committed suicide, a 70ish Catholic, had given himself a free ticket to Hell. I was surprised my the act too. Along side the image was a image about the origin of the word, the english term with the god Loki's monsterous Norse Hel. The party that shall remain nameless, who had better get a personal sit down from Brian at this point, about the rules of the board; took it upon himself to disable the image. Why ? I couldn't honestly tell for days, as to why. It was because half asleep mistook it for a Hate-crime advocates image or too hot to handle. NOT HIS CALL TO MAKE. By the fucking way, It really sells the board short when if someone was advocating a Hate Crime, fuck everyone would be on that person like ugly on namelessness's demeanor!! Calm place, calm place. The final straw was editing an image in a frigging thread about Comics books, which I didn't start!! Oh, Hell I had better shut up now before I give it all away. Other than that, How you guys doing (te-fucking-he)?!!

 p.s. -- This is not something I planned on doing, not with this day.


Vastet
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Many people think the

Many people think the holocaust was perpetrated against the jews and only the jews, because the jews never acknowledge the other groups who suffered just as much, and are the only ones still bitching about it every day almost a century later. It's just like black people in the US who think they deserve reparations for crimes never committed against them. There's a difference between memorialising a horrific event and milking it for all its worth, and the jews crossed that line years ago.
Hitler did NOT just target and scapegoat the jews, he targetted and scapegoated EVERYONE who disagreed with him or that he didn't like or that he thought he could make cower.
He was a bully and a power hungry asshole who stepped on anyone who even looked at him the wrong way, and the jews were actually a minority when tallying up his depravations.
The flags of all the allies and symbols of all the religions he crushed should be in such a display, NOT just the symbol of the jews.

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Wasn't able to do any editing ..

  (Edit:: If I had the time to edit, these Edits, in the following).. only briefly, has been systematically  ..  .. blogging about the guy you  who committed suicide, a 70ish ..    .. a free ticket to Hell. I was surprised by the act too. Along side the image was..   .. who had better get a personal sit down from Brian at this point, about the rules of the board
 





 Sorry  back to the Topic 

  {Vastet wrote}

Vastet wrote:
Many people think the holocaust was perpetrated against the jews and only the jews, because the jews never acknowledge the other groups who suffered just as much, and are the only ones still bitching about it every day almost a century later. It's just like black people in the US who think they deserve reparations for crimes never committed against them. There's a difference between memorialising a horrific event and milking it for all its worth, and the jews crossed that line years ago. Hitler did NOT just target and scapegoat the jews, he targetted and scapegoated EVERYONE who disagreed with him or that he didn't like or that he thought he could make cower. He was a bully and a power hungry asshole who stepped on anyone who even looked at him the wrong way, and the jews were actually a minority when tallying up his depravations. The flags of all the allies and symbols of all the religions he crushed should be in such a display, NOT just the symbol of the jews.


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Vastet wrote:Many people

Vastet wrote:
Many people think the holocaust was perpetrated against the jews and only the jews, because the jews never acknowledge the other groups who suffered just as much, and are the only ones still bitching about it every day almost a century later. It's just like black people in the US who think they deserve reparations for crimes never committed against them. There's a difference between memorialising a horrific event and milking it for all its worth, and the jews crossed that line years ago. Hitler did NOT just target and scapegoat the jews, he targetted and scapegoated EVERYONE who disagreed with him or that he didn't like or that he thought he could make cower. He was a bully and a power hungry asshole who stepped on anyone who even looked at him the wrong way, and the jews were actually a minority when tallying up his depravations. The flags of all the allies and symbols of all the religions he crushed should be in such a display, NOT just the symbol of the jews.

 

The Holocaust was no more Jews fault than a rape victim being slipped a mickey. But while the rest of humanity at the time said "what the fuck" upon the genocide, it is 2013 and way after the fact.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Beyond Saving
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 It is bullshit like this

 It is bullshit like this that prevents me from being affiliated with the FFRF. Who the fuck cares? It isn't important, it is a memorial to honor the Jews that died in the holocaust and the symbol is appropriate to the purpose. We have other memorials here in the state that specifically memorialize the American soldiers who died, and guess what, they have a bunch of military symbols and no star of david. The idea that it somehow is pushing Judaism or endorsing it, or deterring other religious/non-religious beliefs is absurd. Grow the fuck up and worry about important things.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Vastet
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Brian37 wrote:The Holocaust

Brian37 wrote:
The Holocaust was no more Jews fault than a rape victim being slipped a mickey. But while the rest of humanity at the time said "what the fuck" upon the genocide, it is 2013 and way after the fact.

Who said it was the jews fault? I certainly didn't. The holocaust was the nazi's fault. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.
What I AM saying is that the jews weren't the only ones who suffered in the holocaust. They weren't even the majority. So putting a jewish symbol on a memorial of the holocaust diminishes the memorial and everyone who suffered during the holocaust who wasn't a jew.

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Brian37
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Vastet wrote:Brian37

Vastet wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
The Holocaust was no more Jews fault than a rape victim being slipped a mickey. But while the rest of humanity at the time said "what the fuck" upon the genocide, it is 2013 and way after the fact.
Who said it was the jews fault? I certainly didn't. The holocaust was the nazi's fault. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. What I AM saying is that the jews weren't the only ones who suffered in the holocaust. They weren't even the majority. So putting a jewish symbol on a memorial of the holocaust diminishes the memorial and everyone who suffered during the holocaust who wasn't a jew.

 

No no no, you missed my point. I wasn't saying you were saying that. I was agreeing that that war is still milked today by modern Jews to avoid the crap they do themselves. I agree the Holocaust and ALL the death of that war rests on one asshole who was too much of a coward to stand trial and committed suicide. If you read my post I said the death toll worldwide because of that war was 50 million, that is higher than 6 million.

 

I was agreeing with you, Jews were NOT the only ones who suffered. But at the time the Nazis did scapegoat Jews for German's economic problems. But if the truth be told, if the west had done a better job of helping out Germany after WW1 Hitler never would have rose to power.

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Brian37
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Beyond Saving wrote: It is

Beyond Saving wrote:

 It is bullshit like this that prevents me from being affiliated with the FFRF. Who the fuck cares? It isn't important, it is a memorial to honor the Jews that died in the holocaust and the symbol is appropriate to the purpose. We have other memorials here in the state that specifically memorialize the American soldiers who died, and guess what, they have a bunch of military symbols and no star of david. The idea that it somehow is pushing Judaism or endorsing it, or deterring other religious/non-religious beliefs is absurd. Grow the fuck up and worry about important things.  

I care. Jews don't own a monopoly on human suffering. The Jews that survived WW2 knew this and again, "never again" to them at that time was not "pro Jew". Today's Jews and Palestinians for that matter wallow in self pity and point fingers.

The lesson of the Holocaust is the same as slavery is the same as the genocide of Native Americans. The survivors of the Holocaust would agree.

I am for an inclusive memorial to human suffering because there has never been a period in our species history where cruelty hasn't happened and where compassion hasn't at the same time. We are the same species. That is the lesson of the Holocaust and slavery and any form of human suffering.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
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Brian37 wrote:I care. Jews

Brian37 wrote:

I care. Jews don't own a monopoly on human suffering. The Jews that survived WW2 knew this and again, "never again" to them at that time was not "pro Jew". Today's Jews and Palestinians for that matter wallow in self pity and point fingers.

The lesson of the Holocaust is the same as slavery is the same as the genocide of Native Americans. The survivors of the Holocaust would agree.

I am for an inclusive memorial to human suffering because there has never been a period in our species history where cruelty hasn't happened and where compassion hasn't at the same time. We are the same species. That is the lesson of the Holocaust and slavery and any form of human suffering.

So should we replace all the memorials across the whole state that only focus on specific groups of people? Should we tear down The Wall in DC because it is only a memorial to American soldiers lost in Vietnam? A lot of other soldiers and civilians died in that war too. Not to mention it completely ignores all the other wars. There is a memorial in the middle of the road at a small town near me which has a listing of all of their citizens who have died in the military. Why how exclusive!

And should we also tear down/modify the memorials we have to Native Americans across the state? Those dedicated to the underground railroad and slavery? Those dedicated to the Civil War? Those dedicated to single people who played a big role in history? Better ditch the Johnny Appleseed memorial, it doesn't get more exclusive than focusing on one person. 

The point of a memorial is to remind people about a specific event in history and often about specific people involved in that specific event. Some memorials might be broad and include all wars, others are very specific and meant to include a single person. It is beyond absurd to expect every memorial built to be a memorial to all human suffering. It also completely defeats the purpose of building memorials. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Vastet
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All the memorials you

All the memorials you mention honour those who were killed or suffered in a specific incident without excluding anyone. The memorial wall to Vietnam is a memorial to those who died in Vietnam. It isn't a memorial to war, it's a memorial to Vietnam. A memorial in a town remembers the townsfolk who gave their lives. It isn't a memorial to war, it's a memorial to the town.

Putting a jewish religious symbol on a memorial of the holocaust excludes the majority of those who suffered during the holocaust. It's a completely different scenario. To equate it to the wall, you'd have to exclude thousands of soldiers who fought in Vietnam. To equate it to the town, you'd have to exclude various townsfolk. To equate it to natives, you'd have to exclude some of the tribes the memorial speaks of.

The whole purpose of a memorial is to remember tragedies of history, not to rewrite that history.

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