What really is Christian "Belief?"

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What really is Christian "Belief?"

I wonder what it means, to a Christian, to "believe."

That term is sometimes used to suppose something might be true -- as with a question such as "Did the Raiders win?" and the reply "I believe so," in which one thinks they might know the answer but are uncertain.

But I think that's not how Christians would like to express their connection to God. Their common use of the term "believe" implies they judge the truth of God to be absolute. After all, Jesus didn't say that salvation could be found by hypothesizing his divinity, but by Believing in it -- capital B. 

I believe gravity, the force causing things to fall toward the Earth, to be beyond doubt and my actions validate the veracity of my belief -- i.e., I am careful not to walk off the edges of cliffs because I know the consequences will demonstrate, to my detriment, the truth of my belief  (at least on Earth!).

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief. 

Ironically those who DO truly believe, the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead, i.e., what one might call the true believers who put their beilefs to the test, are denigrated as being mentally ill by everyone -- including the imagineer Christians who would like to be true believers themselves but are shocked back into reality when they actually confront its consequences in the actions of others.

 

 

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roseweeed wrote:I wonder

roseweeed wrote:

I wonder what it means, to a Christian, to "believe."

That term is sometimes used to suppose something might be true -- as with a question such as "Did the Raiders win?" and the reply "I believe so," in which one thinks they might know the answer but are uncertain.

But I think that's not how Christians would like to express their connection to God. Their common use of the term "believe" implies they judge the truth of God to be absolute. After all, Jesus didn't say that salvation could be found by hypothesizing his divinity, but by Believing in it -- capital B. 

I believe gravity, the force causing things to fall toward the Earth, to be beyond doubt and my actions validate the veracity of my belief -- i.e., I am careful not to walk off the edges of cliffs because I know the consequences will demonstrate, to my detriment, the truth of my belief  (at least on Earth!).

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief. 

Ironically those who DO truly believe, the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead, i.e., what one might call the true believers who put their beilefs to the test, are denigrated as being mentally ill by everyone -- including the imagineer Christians who would like to be true believers themselves but are shocked back into reality when they actually confront its consequences in the actions of others.

 

 

 

The more I read posts that focus on particular labels the more I feel the need to warn people that the bigger picture has nothing to do with one particular superstition, but the focus should be on WHY do humans invent myths and falsely believe them to be fact.

Why did the ancient Egyptians falsely believe the sun to be a god for 3,000 years? Why do Hindu's even today, falsely believe that multiple armed deities exist? Why do Muslims believe in a god named Allah? Why do new ager's claim that the universe itself is a thinking entity? Why do si fi woo'ers postulate "all this" being the result of a "simulation".

Why do all these bullshit superstitions persist in our species history? Because we are a pattern seeking species, and combined with that we are also an emotional species, and we tend to flock to things and or ideas that promote self(even if that pattern or idea is wrong, we still will promote it rather than ditch our own egos in order to find truth.

So to answer the question in the title of the thread "What is Christian belief"? It is a result of the same refusal to test and verify. The same emotional appeal of credulity and wishful thinking that causes morons to believe in the Loc Ness Monster.

Evolution's goal is not about getting facts right. Evolution only requires getting to the point of reproduction.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Two basic definition of

Two basic definition of faith would be:

  1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
  2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

For the Christian, so it seems, the first definition is more fitting. It's not merely accepting to a proposition or set of propositions as true. The difference would be in saying "I believe that Barrack Obama is president of the United States" and "I trust Barrack Obama as President of United States." The former is accepting a proposition while the later is a statement of the faith one in a person. One could say, "I trust Mitt Romney as President of the United States" even if Mitt Romney is not the President of the United States. I think this is the sort of "faith" that Christians are talking about when they say they believe in Jesus/God.

 

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Brian37 wrote:roseweeed

Brian37 wrote:

roseweeed wrote:

I wonder what it means, to a Christian, to "believe."

That term is sometimes used to suppose something might be true -- as with a question such as "Did the Raiders win?" and the reply "I believe so," in which one thinks they might know the answer but are uncertain.

But I think that's not how Christians would like to express their connection to God. Their common use of the term "believe" implies they judge the truth of God to be absolute. After all, Jesus didn't say that salvation could be found by hypothesizing his divinity, but by Believing in it -- capital B. 

I believe gravity, the force causing things to fall toward the Earth, to be beyond doubt and my actions validate the veracity of my belief -- i.e., I am careful not to walk off the edges of cliffs because I know the consequences will demonstrate, to my detriment, the truth of my belief  (at least on Earth!).

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief. 

Ironically those who DO truly believe, the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead, i.e., what one might call the true believers who put their beilefs to the test, are denigrated as being mentally ill by everyone -- including the imagineer Christians who would like to be true believers themselves but are shocked back into reality when they actually confront its consequences in the actions of others.

 

 

 

The more I read posts that focus on particular labels the more I feel the need to warn people that the bigger picture has nothing to do with one particular superstition, but the focus should be on WHY do humans invent myths and falsely believe them to be fact.

Why did the ancient Egyptians falsely believe the sun to be a god for 3,000 years? Why do Hindu's even today, falsely believe that multiple armed deities exist? Why do Muslims believe in a god named Allah? Why do new ager's claim that the universe itself is a thinking entity? Why do si fi woo'ers postulate "all this" being the result of a "simulation".

Why do all these bullshit superstitions persist in our species history? Because we are a pattern seeking species, and combined with that we are also an emotional species, and we tend to flock to things and or ideas that promote self(even if that pattern or idea is wrong, we still will promote it rather than ditch our own egos in order to find truth.

So to answer the question in the title of the thread "What is Christian belief"? It is a result of the same refusal to test and verify. The same emotional appeal of credulity and wishful thinking that causes morons to believe in the Loc Ness Monster.

Evolution's goal is not about getting facts right. Evolution only requires getting to the point of reproduction.

Go to, The Old Seer's Corner in the general Conversations forum. It might be helpful.

Then again--we have to understand the origin of the falsehoods. In ancient times they didn't know better because of little or no previous experience. Then also-there's many people making a living by keeping the superstitions active. But it's mainly due to ignorance of ancestors  that's been given to following generations.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


Brian37
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Old Seer wrote:Brian37

Old Seer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

roseweeed wrote:

I wonder what it means, to a Christian, to "believe."

That term is sometimes used to suppose something might be true -- as with a question such as "Did the Raiders win?" and the reply "I believe so," in which one thinks they might know the answer but are uncertain.

But I think that's not how Christians would like to express their connection to God. Their common use of the term "believe" implies they judge the truth of God to be absolute. After all, Jesus didn't say that salvation could be found by hypothesizing his divinity, but by Believing in it -- capital B. 

I believe gravity, the force causing things to fall toward the Earth, to be beyond doubt and my actions validate the veracity of my belief -- i.e., I am careful not to walk off the edges of cliffs because I know the consequences will demonstrate, to my detriment, the truth of my belief  (at least on Earth!).

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief. 

Ironically those who DO truly believe, the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead, i.e., what one might call the true believers who put their beilefs to the test, are denigrated as being mentally ill by everyone -- including the imagineer Christians who would like to be true believers themselves but are shocked back into reality when they actually confront its consequences in the actions of others.

 

 

 

The more I read posts that focus on particular labels the more I feel the need to warn people that the bigger picture has nothing to do with one particular superstition, but the focus should be on WHY do humans invent myths and falsely believe them to be fact.

Why did the ancient Egyptians falsely believe the sun to be a god for 3,000 years? Why do Hindu's even today, falsely believe that multiple armed deities exist? Why do Muslims believe in a god named Allah? Why do new ager's claim that the universe itself is a thinking entity? Why do si fi woo'ers postulate "all this" being the result of a "simulation".

Why do all these bullshit superstitions persist in our species history? Because we are a pattern seeking species, and combined with that we are also an emotional species, and we tend to flock to things and or ideas that promote self(even if that pattern or idea is wrong, we still will promote it rather than ditch our own egos in order to find truth.

So to answer the question in the title of the thread "What is Christian belief"? It is a result of the same refusal to test and verify. The same emotional appeal of credulity and wishful thinking that causes morons to believe in the Loc Ness Monster.

Evolution's goal is not about getting facts right. Evolution only requires getting to the point of reproduction.

Go to, The Old Seer's Corner in the general Conversations forum. It might be helpful.

Then again--we have to understand the origin of the falsehoods. In ancient times they didn't know better because of little or no previous experience. Then also-there's many people making a living by keeping the superstitions active. But it's mainly due to ignorance of ancestors  that's been given to following generations.

You must think most people here are stupid and dense. All this post means is "You don't understand".

Problem is you are dealing with people who DO understand.

You are a believer and we do not make the distinction between old superstition or new superstition.

If you want to argue "ancestors", I hate to burst your delusional bubble, but OUR ancestors go further back than your personal pet superstition.

If the truth lies in "the first" then bow to the polytheist prior to your monotheism. Bow to the animal gods of the French caves, that existed long before your magic baby crap.

Now, the only way you could make this work is to prove that Jesus had a Delorean and Micheal J Fox was the Satan that planted all these falsehoods using bananas and beer cans. Good luck with that.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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ubuntuAnyone wrote:Two basic

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Two basic definition of faith would be:

  1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
  2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. 

 

Christians use faith and belief interchangeably and conveniently, as a kind of shell-game to mask contradictions in their theistic world view -- inconsistencies they would never tolerate in other aspects of their ordinary lives. For example, they rely on blind faith (unsupported by any credible evidence) to assert that human bodies are inhabited and survived after death by ghostly spirits, but they would not so much as cross the street were they no convinced by the credible evidence of their eyes that it was safe to do so.  

Jesus' disciples were supposedly convinced of his divinity by his demonstration of miracles -- i.e., they were exempted from faith and given what appeared to be direct physical evidence of his supernatural powers. Absent the ability to hang out with Jesus and witness his feats, to evaluate his claims up-close, subsequent followers are relegated to faith, which is no more than a suspension of disbelief in order to span significant gaps in the believability of stories and mythologies they wish to be true. To say that faith explains Christian belief is absurd -- they are the same thing, and neither one explains the other.

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roseweeed wrote:Christians

roseweeed wrote:

Christians use faith and belief interchangeably and conveniently, as a kind of shell-game to mask contradictions in their theistic world view -- inconsistencies they would never tolerate in other aspects of their ordinary lives. For example, they rely on blind faith (unsupported by any credible evidence) to assert that human bodies are inhabited and survived after death by ghostly spirits, but they would not so much as cross the street were they no convinced by the credible evidence of their eyes that it was safe to do so.

Jesus' disciples were supposedly convinced of his divinity by his demonstration of miracles -- i.e., they were exempted from faith and given what appeared to be direct physical evidence of his supernatural powers. Absent the ability to hang out with Jesus and witness his feats, to evaluate his claims up-close, subsequent followers are relegated to faith, which is no more than a suspension of disbelief in order to span significant gaps in the believability of stories and mythologies they wish to be true. To say that faith explains Christian belief is absurd -- they are the same thing, and neither one explains the other.

In the fideistic approaches...certainly I think it is the case that they would assert "blind faith" for their religious convictions -- and some say that this "blind faith" is the evidence of their conviction -- in other words, they don't need to be convinced of what they hold true.

Then there are those who hold that Christianity is evidenced-based based on the aforementioned accounts, and perhaps other evidence as well. Their level of incredulity is apparently not the same as your own, as you'd require what seems to be a personal encounter with Jesus, his alleged miracles, etc. But this is about settling a matter of fact and would therefore be more inline with the second definition.

But to say that they were "exempted" from faith yet Jesus requires faith for salvation would be a contradiction in terms, unless of course he meant something else by "believing" in him -- perhaps something more inline to the first definition I gave. It is not contradictory to "believe" some set of propositions based on evidence then exhibit some measure of faith in the subject of those facts.

 

 

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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Brian37 wrote:Old Seer

Brian37 wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

roseweeed wrote:

I wonder what it means, to a Christian, to "believe."

That term is sometimes used to suppose something might be true -- as with a question such as "Did the Raiders win?" and the reply "I believe so," in which one thinks they might know the answer but are uncertain.

But I think that's not how Christians would like to express their connection to God. Their common use of the term "believe" implies they judge the truth of God to be absolute. After all, Jesus didn't say that salvation could be found by hypothesizing his divinity, but by Believing in it -- capital B. 

I believe gravity, the force causing things to fall toward the Earth, to be beyond doubt and my actions validate the veracity of my belief -- i.e., I am careful not to walk off the edges of cliffs because I know the consequences will demonstrate, to my detriment, the truth of my belief  (at least on Earth!).

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief. 

Ironically those who DO truly believe, the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead, i.e., what one might call the true believers who put their beilefs to the test, are denigrated as being mentally ill by everyone -- including the imagineer Christians who would like to be true believers themselves but are shocked back into reality when they actually confront its consequences in the actions of others.

 

 

 

The more I read posts that focus on particular labels the more I feel the need to warn people that the bigger picture has nothing to do with one particular superstition, but the focus should be on WHY do humans invent myths and falsely believe them to be fact.

Why did the ancient Egyptians falsely believe the sun to be a god for 3,000 years? Why do Hindu's even today, falsely believe that multiple armed deities exist? Why do Muslims believe in a god named Allah? Why do new ager's claim that the universe itself is a thinking entity? Why do si fi woo'ers postulate "all this" being the result of a "simulation".

Why do all these bullshit superstitions persist in our species history? Because we are a pattern seeking species, and combined with that we are also an emotional species, and we tend to flock to things and or ideas that promote self(even if that pattern or idea is wrong, we still will promote it rather than ditch our own egos in order to find truth.

So to answer the question in the title of the thread "What is Christian belief"? It is a result of the same refusal to test and verify. The same emotional appeal of credulity and wishful thinking that causes morons to believe in the Loc Ness Monster.

Evolution's goal is not about getting facts right. Evolution only requires getting to the point of reproduction.

Go to, The Old Seer's Corner in the general Conversations forum. It might be helpful.

Then again--we have to understand the origin of the falsehoods. In ancient times they didn't know better because of little or no previous experience. Then also-there's many people making a living by keeping the superstitions active. But it's mainly due to ignorance of ancestors  that's been given to following generations.

You must think most people here are stupid and dense. All this post means is "You don't understand".

Problem is you are dealing with people who DO understand.

You are a believer and we do not make the distinction between old superstition or new superstition.

If you want to argue "ancestors", I hate to burst your delusional bubble, but OUR ancestors go further back than your personal pet superstition.

If the truth lies in "the first" then bow to the polytheist prior to your monotheism. Bow to the animal gods of the French caves, that existed long before your magic baby crap.

Now, the only way you could make this work is to prove that Jesus had a Delorean and Micheal J Fox was the Satan that planted all these falsehoods using bananas and beer cans. Good luck with that.

 

I am not a theist, deist, but can be taken as an atheist from time to time. I'm not a Christian either because I choose not to be. Get your facts straight, Please. And could you try to be A bit human once in a while.  You can get off the magic idea as I don't belong to any religion in practice today. Make a choice---you evolved with the animal and the human,, the good and the bad. You didn't know that till now did you. See if you can get around that. No-I don't think anyone is stupid.

You're making assumptions from a basis of you own imagination.     Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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roseweeed wrote:Christians,

roseweeed wrote:

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

They have a fail safe. Their book says "don't test god"

roseweeed wrote:
Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief.

There used to be a joke around christmas each year at our church. You could go day after day, to any mass, any event, and find the pews empty. However, on Christmas, the masses were jammed packed. So many people showed up for this one mass each year that they had to have four extra masses PLUS use the recreation hall to handle the over flow.

Show me a christian who claims their god is real and I'll show you a christian who is bearing false witness.

roseweeed wrote:
the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead

Jim Jones was a fucking crackhead. He didn't believe in god. He thought he was god.

He took massive amounts of drugs and was paranoid and delusional. When his "project" started to fail his entire world crash in on him, so he took every one with him.

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Jim

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Jim Jones was a fucking crackhead. He didn't believe in god. He thought he was god.

He took massive amounts of drugs and was paranoid and delusional. When his "project" started to fail his entire world crash in on him, so he took every one with him.

Yeah, ok, maybe Jim Jones was a bad example of a true believer because he acted out of a drug stupor instead of a conscious religious conviction. How about Muslims who blow themselves to pieces for heavenly rewards from Allah, instead -- or parents who refuse their sick kids medical treatment that could save a life? Yes, they're lunatics. And when confronted with those who actually act-out according to their religious beliefs, most people recoil in horror and rightly dismiss such actions as being a product of mental ilness or abject ignorance. And the irony, of course, is that most of those horrified people are believers themselves in equally bizarre things. They just aren't stupid enough (or believers enough) to initiate actions that test the beliefs they espouse. 

So, I would say they're not really believers with a cap "B" at all -- they're imagineers, pretenders to an abstract notion they have contorted into a kind of infant pacifier for yearning adults, a habit they depend upon for security and from which they have not been weaned, an addiction perhaps but not really a belief. 

roseweed

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Old Seer wrote:Brian37

Old Seer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

roseweeed wrote:

I wonder what it means, to a Christian, to "believe."

That term is sometimes used to suppose something might be true -- as with a question such as "Did the Raiders win?" and the reply "I believe so," in which one thinks they might know the answer but are uncertain.

But I think that's not how Christians would like to express their connection to God. Their common use of the term "believe" implies they judge the truth of God to be absolute. After all, Jesus didn't say that salvation could be found by hypothesizing his divinity, but by Believing in it -- capital B. 

I believe gravity, the force causing things to fall toward the Earth, to be beyond doubt and my actions validate the veracity of my belief -- i.e., I am careful not to walk off the edges of cliffs because I know the consequences will demonstrate, to my detriment, the truth of my belief  (at least on Earth!).

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief. 

Ironically those who DO truly believe, the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead, i.e., what one might call the true believers who put their beilefs to the test, are denigrated as being mentally ill by everyone -- including the imagineer Christians who would like to be true believers themselves but are shocked back into reality when they actually confront its consequences in the actions of others.

 

 

 

The more I read posts that focus on particular labels the more I feel the need to warn people that the bigger picture has nothing to do with one particular superstition, but the focus should be on WHY do humans invent myths and falsely believe them to be fact.

Why did the ancient Egyptians falsely believe the sun to be a god for 3,000 years? Why do Hindu's even today, falsely believe that multiple armed deities exist? Why do Muslims believe in a god named Allah? Why do new ager's claim that the universe itself is a thinking entity? Why do si fi woo'ers postulate "all this" being the result of a "simulation".

Why do all these bullshit superstitions persist in our species history? Because we are a pattern seeking species, and combined with that we are also an emotional species, and we tend to flock to things and or ideas that promote self(even if that pattern or idea is wrong, we still will promote it rather than ditch our own egos in order to find truth.

So to answer the question in the title of the thread "What is Christian belief"? It is a result of the same refusal to test and verify. The same emotional appeal of credulity and wishful thinking that causes morons to believe in the Loc Ness Monster.

Evolution's goal is not about getting facts right. Evolution only requires getting to the point of reproduction.

Go to, The Old Seer's Corner in the general Conversations forum. It might be helpful.

Then again--we have to understand the origin of the falsehoods. In ancient times they didn't know better because of little or no previous experience. Then also-there's many people making a living by keeping the superstitions active. But it's mainly due to ignorance of ancestors  that's been given to following generations.

You must think most people here are stupid and dense. All this post means is "You don't understand".

Problem is you are dealing with people who DO understand.

You are a believer and we do not make the distinction between old superstition or new superstition.

If you want to argue "ancestors", I hate to burst your delusional bubble, but OUR ancestors go further back than your personal pet superstition.

If the truth lies in "the first" then bow to the polytheist prior to your monotheism. Bow to the animal gods of the French caves, that existed long before your magic baby crap.

Now, the only way you could make this work is to prove that Jesus had a Delorean and Micheal J Fox was the Satan that planted all these falsehoods using bananas and beer cans. Good luck with that.

 

I am not a theist, deist, but can be taken as an atheist from time to time. I'm not a Christian either because I choose not to be. Get your facts straight, Please. And could you try to be A bit human once in a while.  You can get off the magic idea as I don't belong to any religion in practice today. Make a choice---you evolved with the animal and the human,, the good and the bad. You didn't know that till now did you. See if you can get around that. No-I don't think anyone is stupid.

You're making assumptions from a basis of you own imagination.     Smiling

Theist/deist/ still constitute the belief in a "higher power" in the form of a cognition. You STILL believe in a puppet master. And you have quoted the bible on top of that so please spare us that you do not have a specific super hero name in mind.

Superstition is superstition no matter what kind of crappy tux you want to dress your skunk of an argument up in.

There is no such thing as either a theist or deist god, call it Allah or Thor or "he" .It still amounts to YOU projecting human qualities onto a non existent being. You still have a wishful thinking utopian belief that someone made you like a toy or robot in his magical fairy dust factory.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Old Seer
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you don't get my post do you.

Brian37 wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

roseweeed wrote:

I wonder what it means, to a Christian, to "believe."

That term is sometimes used to suppose something might be true -- as with a question such as "Did the Raiders win?" and the reply "I believe so," in which one thinks they might know the answer but are uncertain.

But I think that's not how Christians would like to express their connection to God. Their common use of the term "believe" implies they judge the truth of God to be absolute. After all, Jesus didn't say that salvation could be found by hypothesizing his divinity, but by Believing in it -- capital B. 

I believe gravity, the force causing things to fall toward the Earth, to be beyond doubt and my actions validate the veracity of my belief -- i.e., I am careful not to walk off the edges of cliffs because I know the consequences will demonstrate, to my detriment, the truth of my belief  (at least on Earth!).

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief. 

Ironically those who DO truly believe, the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead, i.e., what one might call the true believers who put their beilefs to the test, are denigrated as being mentally ill by everyone -- including the imagineer Christians who would like to be true believers themselves but are shocked back into reality when they actually confront its consequences in the actions of others.

 

 

 

The more I read posts that focus on particular labels the more I feel the need to warn people that the bigger picture has nothing to do with one particular superstition, but the focus should be on WHY do humans invent myths and falsely believe them to be fact.

Why did the ancient Egyptians falsely believe the sun to be a god for 3,000 years? Why do Hindu's even today, falsely believe that multiple armed deities exist? Why do Muslims believe in a god named Allah? Why do new ager's claim that the universe itself is a thinking entity? Why do si fi woo'ers postulate "all this" being the result of a "simulation".

Why do all these bullshit superstitions persist in our species history? Because we are a pattern seeking species, and combined with that we are also an emotional species, and we tend to flock to things and or ideas that promote self(even if that pattern or idea is wrong, we still will promote it rather than ditch our own egos in order to find truth.

So to answer the question in the title of the thread "What is Christian belief"? It is a result of the same refusal to test and verify. The same emotional appeal of credulity and wishful thinking that causes morons to believe in the Loc Ness Monster.

Evolution's goal is not about getting facts right. Evolution only requires getting to the point of reproduction.

Go to, The Old Seer's Corner in the general Conversations forum. It might be helpful.

Then again--we have to understand the origin of the falsehoods. In ancient times they didn't know better because of little or no previous experience. Then also-there's many people making a living by keeping the superstitions active. But it's mainly due to ignorance of ancestors  that's been given to following generations.

You must think most people here are stupid and dense. All this post means is "You don't understand".

Problem is you are dealing with people who DO understand.

You are a believer and we do not make the distinction between old superstition or new superstition.

If you want to argue "ancestors", I hate to burst your delusional bubble, but OUR ancestors go further back than your personal pet superstition.

If the truth lies in "the first" then bow to the polytheist prior to your monotheism. Bow to the animal gods of the French caves, that existed long before your magic baby crap.

Now, the only way you could make this work is to prove that Jesus had a Delorean and Micheal J Fox was the Satan that planted all these falsehoods using bananas and beer cans. Good luck with that.

 

I am not a theist, deist, but can be taken as an atheist from time to time. I'm not a Christian either because I choose not to be. Get your facts straight, Please. And could you try to be A bit human once in a while.  You can get off the magic idea as I don't belong to any religion in practice today. Make a choice---you evolved with the animal and the human,, the good and the bad. You didn't know that till now did you. See if you can get around that. No-I don't think anyone is stupid.

You're making assumptions from a basis of you own imagination.     Smiling

Theist/deist/ still constitute the belief in a "higher power" in the form of a cognition. You STILL believe in a puppet master. And you have quoted the bible on top of that so please spare us that you do not have a specific super hero name in mind.

Superstition is superstition no matter what kind of crappy tux you want to dress your skunk of an argument up in.

There is no such thing as either a theist or deist god, call it Allah or Thor or "he" .It still amounts to YOU projecting human qualities onto a non existent being. You still have a wishful thinking utopian belief that someone made you like a toy or robot in his magical fairy dust factory.

 

I may have to go back and review if I think someone is stupid.  I do not "not" believe in any supernatural, there is no such thing. There's no God or entity floating around the moon spying on floks. I worship nothing---no one. No there is no one out in space---NO there is no one out in space looking at us---No---No----NO got it. OK--I'll go again----NO. I DO NOT BELONG TO ANY KNOWN RELIGION---NO----NO----NO, did you get that. You need to see someone appropriate to look into "your" mental fixations. Your stuck in one gear---use the shift lever. I know where this dust factory you mentioned really is

All I did was make a normal post--if this post got hijacked I didn't do it. If I did what you did I would be a troll wouldn't I. Only atheists aren't trolls do I have that correct.

I will no longer answer your posts and deal with your attitude, just to stay on the proper side of things.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


Brian37
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Old Seer wrote:Brian37

Old Seer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

roseweeed wrote:

I wonder what it means, to a Christian, to "believe."

That term is sometimes used to suppose something might be true -- as with a question such as "Did the Raiders win?" and the reply "I believe so," in which one thinks they might know the answer but are uncertain.

But I think that's not how Christians would like to express their connection to God. Their common use of the term "believe" implies they judge the truth of God to be absolute. After all, Jesus didn't say that salvation could be found by hypothesizing his divinity, but by Believing in it -- capital B. 

I believe gravity, the force causing things to fall toward the Earth, to be beyond doubt and my actions validate the veracity of my belief -- i.e., I am careful not to walk off the edges of cliffs because I know the consequences will demonstrate, to my detriment, the truth of my belief  (at least on Earth!).

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief. 

Ironically those who DO truly believe, the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead, i.e., what one might call the true believers who put their beilefs to the test, are denigrated as being mentally ill by everyone -- including the imagineer Christians who would like to be true believers themselves but are shocked back into reality when they actually confront its consequences in the actions of others.

 

 

 

The more I read posts that focus on particular labels the more I feel the need to warn people that the bigger picture has nothing to do with one particular superstition, but the focus should be on WHY do humans invent myths and falsely believe them to be fact.

Why did the ancient Egyptians falsely believe the sun to be a god for 3,000 years? Why do Hindu's even today, falsely believe that multiple armed deities exist? Why do Muslims believe in a god named Allah? Why do new ager's claim that the universe itself is a thinking entity? Why do si fi woo'ers postulate "all this" being the result of a "simulation".

Why do all these bullshit superstitions persist in our species history? Because we are a pattern seeking species, and combined with that we are also an emotional species, and we tend to flock to things and or ideas that promote self(even if that pattern or idea is wrong, we still will promote it rather than ditch our own egos in order to find truth.

So to answer the question in the title of the thread "What is Christian belief"? It is a result of the same refusal to test and verify. The same emotional appeal of credulity and wishful thinking that causes morons to believe in the Loc Ness Monster.

Evolution's goal is not about getting facts right. Evolution only requires getting to the point of reproduction.

Go to, The Old Seer's Corner in the general Conversations forum. It might be helpful.

Then again--we have to understand the origin of the falsehoods. In ancient times they didn't know better because of little or no previous experience. Then also-there's many people making a living by keeping the superstitions active. But it's mainly due to ignorance of ancestors  that's been given to following generations.

You must think most people here are stupid and dense. All this post means is "You don't understand".

Problem is you are dealing with people who DO understand.

You are a believer and we do not make the distinction between old superstition or new superstition.

If you want to argue "ancestors", I hate to burst your delusional bubble, but OUR ancestors go further back than your personal pet superstition.

If the truth lies in "the first" then bow to the polytheist prior to your monotheism. Bow to the animal gods of the French caves, that existed long before your magic baby crap.

Now, the only way you could make this work is to prove that Jesus had a Delorean and Micheal J Fox was the Satan that planted all these falsehoods using bananas and beer cans. Good luck with that.

 

I am not a theist, deist, but can be taken as an atheist from time to time. I'm not a Christian either because I choose not to be. Get your facts straight, Please. And could you try to be A bit human once in a while.  You can get off the magic idea as I don't belong to any religion in practice today. Make a choice---you evolved with the animal and the human,, the good and the bad. You didn't know that till now did you. See if you can get around that. No-I don't think anyone is stupid.

You're making assumptions from a basis of you own imagination.     Smiling

No, I will not get off the magic. I don't care what you claim to be, "deist" is a form of a god, and since non material non existent things do not think, your claimed god is as real as any other superstitious claim with as much evidence, which is zip, ziltch, nothing, nadda.

Quote:
And could you try to be A bit human once in a while.

 

I am human thank you. But unlike you I grew up. Grown ups look silly having invisible friends.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


faithnomore
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faith

roseweeed wrote:

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Two basic definition of faith would be:

  1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
  2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. 

 

Christians use faith and belief interchangeably and conveniently, as a kind of shell-game to mask contradictions in their theistic world view -- inconsistencies they would never tolerate in other aspects of their ordinary lives. For example, they rely on blind faith (unsupported by any credible evidence) to assert that human bodies are inhabited and survived after death by ghostly spirits, but they would not so much as cross the street were they no convinced by the credible evidence of their eyes that it was safe to do so.  

Jesus' disciples were supposedly convinced of his divinity by his demonstration of miracles -- i.e., they were exempted from faith and given what appeared to be direct physical evidence of his supernatural powers. Absent the ability to hang out with Jesus and witness his feats, to evaluate his claims up-close, subsequent followers are relegated to faith, which is no more than a suspension of disbelief in order to span significant gaps in the believability of stories and mythologies they wish to be true. To say that faith explains Christian belief is absurd -- they are the same thing, and neither one explains the other.

I haven't thought about it til now but you are right Roseweed.  Biblically, Jesus's followers didn't have to believe in Jesus through faith because having faith is to believe in the unseen (I think.)  If this is true, the disciples didn't have to have faith because they (supposedly) saw the miracles Jesus performed.  Only the christians that didn't see these miracles, but still believe in Jesus, have faith because they are believing in something they haven't seen.  

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan

Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1


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Without

 

thinking very hard about it, faith seems to me to be fallacious wishful thinking. Hoping for something really, really hard in the absence of any evidence of any chance of it might come true. But I wonder if faith isn't something else though, something bigger and fuzzier.

A conscious decision to embrace a partial delusion that on one side of the decision can be seen to be 'external' but one embraced, encloses the mind in an alternative view of reality, a vanishing part of which might be possible (first cause, exo universal god), which is then supported by relentless motivated reasoning, a sense of personal failure applied globally, threats, insults to opposition, intense community feelings, etc, which keep urging the mind to rebuild the delusion each time it's frayed by observation. 

For me atheism felt like breaking out of a closed way of thinking, opening up to possibility, to reality. Delighting in unknowns. Christianity embraced as a very young child, if memory recalls correctly, was something different. The closing down of self worth. The amplification of very forgivable child faults. Daily denigration of one's private consciousness, a focus on the negative, a hatred of humanity, a fear of punishment. I missed the love of god part. My OT God concept was a creature I never wanted to meet.  

I recently signed up to donate to the wilderness society and as I listened to the lady running through her patter (I had already decided to give) I felt my 'christianity' inside me. A still small voice kept saying "give, give to the spotted bell frog". 

Perhaps faith is too small a word to explain such a complexity of feelings. Theism to me is a whole-brain experience. When I think hard about being a christian, as I did when penning this turgid dross, I actually become a christian again. Like a personality I lost I can rediscover if I de-concentrate hard enough. Theism is too big a thing for a single label. And it's beyond conscious decision. To me it's complete surrender to pure intuition.  

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Nu 12 Brian37 to Old Seer . . . .

to Old Seer : www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK5YGWS5H84  Gospel in the air . .


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To Brian37: Did you even

To Brian37: Did you even read Old Seer's post? He clearly states he does NOT believe in any supernatural realm or entity. See, right here:

Old Seer wrote:

I am not a theist, deist, but can be taken as an atheist from time to time. I'm not a Christian either because I choose not to be. Get your facts straight, please.

I do not "not" believe in any supernatural, there is no such thing. There's no God or entity floating around the moon spying on folks. I worship nothing---no one. No there is no one out in space---NO there is no one out in space looking at us

So, if you want to remain honest, you have two options: provide quotes showing Old Seer does believe in a god, or STOP MAKING THINGS UP ABOUT HIM.

 


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If original other link is shut down (here's another link) ..

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.

roseweeed wrote:

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief.

Christianity stands out because it is a creedal religion. Judaism for example is not rather a ritual/taboo religion. Islam requires exactly one expression of faith to join and all the rest is ritual/taboo.

When asked if I believe in god I answer, I only ask if god believes in me, what appears to be a modest pun on the two meanings of the same word. The issue is the original Christian usage as in the original Greek and Latin writings all have only the second meaning of trust or confidence. That is transparently obvious from context even in English translation.

With the Christian sectarian wars and the invention of various creeds (Nicinaean, apostles, etc.) the first meaning came to supplant the second in every context instead of simply the lists of beliefs separating one sect from another.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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I am not concerned with how

I am not concerned with how a religion starts or what it's oaths or superstitions are. I am concerned that people make up gods and superstitious rituals.

Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam , Hebrew, Hindu......ect ect ect........were not around 500,000 years ago, much less 1 billion years ago, and evolution still took place. We can scrap every single one of these human invented superstitions, and evolution will still continue.

Religion and politics are predilections, and far too often we become violent because we are too ignorant as a species to understand that evolution is about 3 simple things that we are all part of.

 

1. Getting to the point of reproduction.

2. Finding resources

3. Safety in numbers(our social nature)

 

Religion and politics are bullshit concepts that allow us to ignore this. Power comes and goes, myths give way to newer superstitions, but that list above never stops, no matter what.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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roseweeed wrote:I wonder

roseweeed wrote:

I wonder what it means, to a Christian, to "believe."

That term is sometimes used to suppose something might be true -- as with a question such as "Did the Raiders win?" and the reply "I believe so," in which one thinks they might know the answer but are uncertain.

But I think that's not how Christians would like to express their connection to God. Their common use of the term "believe" implies they judge the truth of God to be absolute. After all, Jesus didn't say that salvation could be found by hypothesizing his divinity, but by Believing in it -- capital B. 

I believe gravity, the force causing things to fall toward the Earth, to be beyond doubt and my actions validate the veracity of my belief -- i.e., I am careful not to walk off the edges of cliffs because I know the consequences will demonstrate, to my detriment, the truth of my belief  (at least on Earth!).

Christians, however, are never wiling to put their "belief" to the test. They don't pray for God to cushion their fall, and then step off the cliff -- because when it comes to falling, their belief in gravity is more certain than their imagination of prayer. They cover this inconsistency with the concept of faith, a one-size-fits-all shield against contradicition that, in fact, only further exposes their false concept of belief.

Belief for Christians seems to enjoy a special status as distinct from other beliefs -- a kind of exemption from actuality which allows one to hold the belief but never act upon its implications. Most Christians who profess to believe, do not Believe -- instead they imagine that if there were a God-centered universe, it would unfold in a certain fashion. And then they integrate that imagination with their reality and call it a belief. 

Ironically those who DO truly believe, the Jim Jones types or the ones who refuse medical treatment and rely on prayer instead, i.e., what one might call the true believers who put their beilefs to the test, are denigrated as being mentally ill by everyone -- including the imagineer Christians who would like to be true believers themselves but are shocked back into reality when they actually confront its consequences in the actions of others.

 

 

Christians have loopholes in their scriptures to guard against skeptics who propose that they should jump off cliffs and such, the creators of the faith were brilliant in installing fail safes such as the "Thou shalt not tempt God" type stuff. Remember the story about Jesus being tempted in the desert. Yet I think you have something about the term "belief", what exactly does it mean? There was an atheist on the CARM site that wrote a brilliant post titled "You Don't Really Believe It Either", in which he said thati Christians don't really believe so much as they assert. Real belief, he said, isn't a choice. Once the brain is presented with evidence, it concludes a belief until evidence to the contrary falsifies it. I can think of an example, say you walk into your house, turn on the lights and every light comes on except one lamp that you have plugged into the same circuit. You immediately conclude that the bulb is burned out. There was no choice in this and you will believe this until you see evidence to the contrary. You will believe that the bulb is burned out until you change the bulb. If you put in a bulb that you know is good, having tested it in another lamp and the lamp still doesn't come on, then you are forced to change your belief and try something else, such as get a volt meter and test the continuity in the cord, check the switch, etc. Of course if you keep trying out new bulbs after the first one didn't solve the problem, well, Einstein had something to say about that.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."