You wouldn't find fault with a being who would allow me to be tortured forever?  Lee, your God has turned you into a psychopath--He's crippled your ability to empathize and to feel compassion.

Lee, could you be wrong about Christianity?  Could it be as false as every other religion?

No it shouldn't be legal and God didn't approve of it either. Human morals change but God doesn't change. Since God has allowed man freedom and since there is sin in the world there is slavery. Actually God told the Israelites to treat them properly.

Why would I need an objective standard? You go through life making subjective determinations every single day. Do you need an objective standard to determine whether something is beautiful or ugly? To determine whether a song is good or bad? To determine whether your dinner tastes good?

 R e :: Try violated

  Interesting fellow (giggle).  You are sinless?! I though we all stumble in many ways. Apparently deep down and secretly you must think yourself thus, to carry around those stones, attached to that mouth (See: the Text). You did not use some of the words in the Gospel of John?  Try violated. Paying closer attention to the text, friend. Nice innocent act though.     According to Karma and Paul people stupid enough to engage in lasciviousness behaviour, according to each of these, they end up "r=e=a=p=i=n=g" and reaping bad? I mean, Correct ? You speak of hell no doubt. These speak of a reaping in this life, no ? Or Are you lacking in faith as well as the failing eye-sight ?  Oh, Thanks to human behaviour, people end up with the scarlet letter even today, in case you forgot yet further. It's amazing how hidden things get uncovered. Oh, But dont worry your pretty head about it, you go about your merry way then.

    :

of bald assertions and non-definitions this the wackiest claim you've made yet, Lee. Tell us how Buddhism is more unverifiable and irrational in its teachings. 

So pleased to hear that you will be relying only on the bible to support your objective truth claims, Lee. As a fallibilist I agree that everyone is biased but it gives me great relief to hear you say that you are biased, too. It's very pleasing to agree on something at last. 

I do find it curious to hear you say that the bible, which is in great part a mythical narrative, can be compared to the tools of a scientist. The thing is of course, that the scientific method as a discipline seeks to let reality do its own talking. A scientist will observe natural phenomena and suggest an hypotheses that seeks to explain the processes at work behind what is observed. Data must be gathered to support the hypothesis and the predictions of the hypothesis must be observed repeatedly. Any observation that contravenes the hypotheses leads to it being questioned, reformulated, or discarded and replaced. Does the bible work this way, Lee?

Further, we all know that observations of the natural world we employ ourselves every day, cannot be relied upon to offer cogent proofs in support of claims about the nature of the supernatural world. Instead these assertions exist as an unsupported hypothesis in the province of the human imagination. In your imagination, Lee. Of course, if you are to argue that supernatural happenings impact upon the natural world, which is the province of scientific observation, then your truth claims about material existence will need to be adequately supported by testable explanations. 

Mustering a mish-mash of assertions and undefined labels contained in a form you yourself insist is irrational (when it takes the form of competing religious narratives) will not help you convince us anything you have to say is more or less true. 

Hmm, so Morality DOES change after all. Great, thanks for agreeing on that.

So Where in the bible (as your source of ethics) does it say God doesn't approve of slavery, or are you just putting words in your god's mouth? Surely, if the bible sets out regulation of slaves, then their existence in the first place must be acceptable, otherwise one of the commandments would have been, "Thou shalt not enslave another"?

So, God's word on the subject is that slaves are acceptable. Modern morality (our 'flawed human morality' which changes) condemns slavery. Should we get back to God's word on this and start enslaving people again? Would God mind if I had a slave, as long as I treated them as the bible requires?

Ha ha ha

You douche. how can anything be the 'right standard' if it's subjective? You're begging the question.

 RE:  I have a dream

 Race: Slave holding

   Owning humans as slaves in a modern context. Both set's of my grandparents are European immigrants, and going back much further I found no trace of "slave owning" in any of the family, on either side (phew). The  population of the Nordic countries just 100 years ago, there were no black people nor slavery IF you exclude the Danes (not Danish). Yes, This ties in, wait a second. Please understand, With my Grandpa being from a different generation, the word 'Colored' was used. Outside of a single phrase (expression) that could be considered a bit demeaning to some. I dont think he was had a racist bone in this body nor was one at heart. The fact we had black folks over for dinner would better attest to the fact. And apparently I had impromptu black lady who was my unofficial nanny for a brief time when I was small. My great great Aunt was to have remarked once "we never saw a black person before, the first time we had ever laid eyes on one was in the circus". Her remark is not as much offensive as she was stating a fact (Nordic countries).Now my Godmother, she was so racist her words would peal the wallpaper of the walls by her rants (no relation, tehe).

 America's past (somebody of interest)

    Whenever slavery is mentioned, many think back to the American  Civil war.  In this discussion I am reminded an of interesting character who name was John Brown (of the era). Very devote and considered slavery to be a great evil, I learned. In his 'day of reckoning', bitter bitter irony two of Brown's men shot and killed a Shepherd Hayward (a free black man) who worked as a baggage handler (factoid). In all honesty blacks were not that important during though times and were treated purely in economic terms in many regions of America. There was no sweetness. Even today many of the older civil rights leaders from the sixties were shocked at a black man being made President of the United States. Frederick Douglass, of that past era, said of John Brown, "In of sacred memory of, I know of no one who has willingly encountered more perils and hardships to serve our enslaved people than John Brown has". Earlier he had said, "I have lived for the slave, but John Brown was willing to "die for the slave." John Brown, from all accounts, was a deeply devoutly religious man as see in his life. He had Blacks over for dinner and supped with them. Which was UNHEARD of and a great social taboo of the time, in many social circles I gather. To put it mildly, he was someone who didnt find slavery to be Okay was a Bible reading man. And, to be fair, much of that opinion had been formed in his reading of the Bible apparently, if I remember my history at all. As a figure, one cannot help but  wonder how a 'biblicist' such as Brown was could sit down with the same Bible. Come to a radically differing(-ent) conclusion, than as say your Southern slave owner from America's past history. It makes you wonder. My guess is he was paying closer attention to the whole love thy neighbor and bare one another burdens then some of the time.

 Background to the Biblical world

    When anybody is to merely comment on slavery back then. You'd have to start with slavery, as an institution, in the context of the larger Roman world of the time. The Roman empire had slaves of every conceivable race due to the vastness of the Empire, from all over the Empire. Though somewhat advantageous to Rome, it (slavery) was also disastrous in many ways, according to some. The manipulation, the degrading, and the dependency of slaves, in a small way, played a real role in the down fall of Roman civilization apparently. Although both Roman vice and it's treatment of its' "Barbarians" was a far larger factor, in the collapse of Rome, I think. Fore in the Roman world the cruel and inhumane treatments which some Romans gave their to their slaves, again, partly led to its' downfall. Many historians made the observation that the moment the Empire no longer grew, it was destined to collapse under its' own weight. Anyhow. Treatment of slaves should be mentioned. For example, the condition in which slaves were kept after being captured was very humiliating. When slaves were first captured, they were brought to auction blocks stripped naked as the buyers examined and placed cards on the slaves that listed all the qualifications of the slave. It is a point worth mentioning, in terms of context. To get back to the point, In Paul's defense, In the New Testament Book of Romans we find "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God",  so I couldnt say you'd find a social revolution   from anyone who had such a teaching. In the New Testament book of Philemon it talks about a run-away slave however. So, There is an example of something mentioned in the New Testament writings. America's 16th  President Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation proclamation it is not. However, in all fairness, it could be argued it was on the way to by the precedent it set. Admittedly,That is decidedly taking the best of the tradition. And seeing the good, instead of the bad. In deference to the board, One could also argue, the Bible in a very twisted reading was partially responsible for the later European Inquistion. But, I dont think torture is exactingly loving thy neighbor. And, This from someone who is all gushy 'love' so what can I say.

~Dana

p.s. -- I am going out of my way here Lee. Way way out of my way on this. Appreciate it, K?

  I have a dream

  "As we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied, as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating "For Whites Only". We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.

This is our hope. This is the faith that I go back to the South with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring."

And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!

Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California!

But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!

Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

 ~ Martin Luther King

  (Sorry, quirky sense of humor)