Free Will is Fantasy
Offline FREE WILL IS FANTASY
There is no such thing as free will. This is a pagan notion from Greek Philosopher that has crept into the church. Christianity does not consistently believe in Free Will.
Logically speaking, to have free will denotes a negative that you are free FROM a given something or someone. Thus logically this would mean that you are free from God.
Since God is sovereign, this means that He has every control over ALL His creation. To denote that you are free from God would logically mean that God is NOT sovereign.
Many Christians not trained in logic commit this huge error and logical fallacy. Those who hate God on here, do not hate God via their own free will. They hate God because they were born to hate God.
They are filthy scum that God created as an example of His justice. They will all be destroyed.
Thus Free Will is false via reality of all. To say that you have free will simply is another pathetic attempt at hating God. But in reality, you are simply storing up the wrath of God that is soon to come your way.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
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Is it how you justify typing bullshit for 244 posts?
Pagan are you really that fucking stupid?
Most of your Christian holidays are Pagan.
Yet you condemn them for being at least a Little free..
Wake up.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
How can you use the word logic without being logical?
Nope.
I'm taking the day off Friday, and on Saturday night I'm going to a nudie bar, to see a gurl named Candy.
Nah, trust me dude 3, I've done it before.
Aside from the fact that I don't know anyone who 'hates God', how could someone not hate via their own free will?
That must be what you think, because you read it in some book that was written by someone.
Do you have free will, or are you a puppet?
Who has told you they have free will?
I don't mind.
What's wrong with that answer?
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
If you take a purely deterministic approach, your attempt at converting people is futile... Either they will or will not convert,it is already written. For all you know, god has planned that you commit a mortal sin 5 minutes before you die, and end up in hell anyways.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
If you want to view yourself as property, and not a human with your own brain, you are a fucking idiot.
I am not a puppet, or property, or lab rat, or toy subject to the whims of fictional beings.
If being an object gets you off, we wont stop you, but don't expect us to bow to you when you present such childish arguments.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Next thread Jean will have to shove a cob of corn up Marge's arse or I won't be entertained.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
because pagan notions are full of awesome and win.
I personally don't think pagan ideas are all that great or valid, but I will grant that they have way more wisdom and understanding in them than the later religions, especially the crap that Jean is pushing.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Wow, that explains a lot Jean. I think I found a picture of Jean and his god!
Guess which one's wearing the gimp suit. It isn't his imaginary bully, I can tell you that much!
Plus, god has some major bewbage!
On the pagan thing, the whole gods and goddesses thing is obviously silly, but at least they are worshiping nature, which in fact does exist. So at least they have one up on many of the other religions. Jean is just jealous because their god exists, whether its really a god or not.
[EDIT] spelling error
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
Good. I'm damned. It's not my fault. I suppose my conscience is clear then.
And since free will is a joke, I guess your god created sin too. Some god.
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
Hey, Jean, I actually agree with your conclusion, although your argument is bull. In a world where fairy tales are real, we can be BOTH controlled by God and free, since God can exist there, too, and he's a paradox.
Ktulu, it's not true that trying to convert us doesn't influence us at all. Determinism doesn't mean Deus ex machina, or something. His words influence our brain, and could have the consequence of us believing, with, or without free will.
I don't think it's fantasy, I think it's just the way it is, no god required.
Ditto'd
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Of course Free Will is fantasy, and most atheists would agree with you, Jean, although not based on the reasons you give.
Does it worry you that atheists agree with you on something fundamental like this?
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Hi Ciarin,
What type of witch are you? Wannabe? Don't tell me, let me guess. a Solitare Witch. LOL.
As far as witches go, you're kind of wimpy. You don't even know what Moriah is (LOL.
Raymond Buckley is a serious witch. Contact him to remove yourself out of the wimp category if you wish.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
buckland is a wiccan, dude.
Hi Witch,
Wicca and Witchcraft is the same thing, just a different style. In fact, the entire spectrum of the Occult is ALWAYS related to eachother.
From the Hopi Indians rituals of sacrifice, to the JuJu of Africa, to the Witches in Milwaukee to London. Satanist, Luciferarians, Witches, Wiccans, they are all the same with different styles.
I know you guys deny this, but you're wrong. Those of the occult that are more mature realize this reality.
The true god of witchcraft is the stag god. More specifically, it is Lucifer, the god of the rainbow.
So what's your background. Are you solitare, or something more serious with substance? If you tell me where you're from (State) I can give you the ritual sites in your area. I have a map of ritual sites across the USA and I have some in England as well.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
Oye vey...
claim after another. Enough to make jesus weep, if he were not a completely made up guy.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Why do you guys argue with a poe?
because he's not a poe...
LOL, that's the thing about POE's, a good one looks like the thing they're satirizing.
ciarin.com
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Is possible. Jean's been accused of being the grand master poe-bar for a long while.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Hey TG, welcome back dude, haven't seen you around in a while.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
I said IF, and then mentioned PURELY deterministic. It was a silly question, and one way to refute a classical deterministic view is to have some knowledge of the uncertainty principle. Which would fall back on empiricism and physics, which Jean would not do... you completely missed the point, but thank you for the corrections. They're all noted and valid.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
Hello,
Well this is great lads. We all agree. I think to celebrate, I shall goa to eata my lucky charms.
So then, if some agree with me regarding free will (this is odd, you probably don't know what you're talkign about), then you would logically be forced to agree that you are an atheist not by your own will. You are bound to be an atheist despite your wishes.
And I'm bound to be a Christian. It is not nature that bounds you, but perhaps a mute point, it is your nature itself that binds you.
Does any agree on this point?
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
And your theology says that there are such things as unrepentant atheists who are going to heaven and active God followers like yourself who are damned to hell.
Doesn't that seem rather silly?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Not exactly.
For some, life is but a mere journey, from a staring point. Not a destination, or moving in the towards a destination. It's just a travel, (hopefully one makes you better than you were when you started), that eventually ceases to exist.
Even though I was never a theist, I did have some feelings like yours, that changed over time. Nature vs Nurture? Don't know, don't care.
I like myself better now, and I won't go back there, and ever sympathize with those feelings again.
They came, and they went. And I am disappointed I had those feelings for as long as I did. They caused me much stress, for nothing.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Hello,
Wannabe Satanist like LaVey before he died in 1997 was an atheist. And he believed that we are bound by are nature. Thus to be a real satanist (not an entity of Satan), one must succumb to the real desires of our nature. The more selfish and lustful we are, the more satanic and true to ourselves we become.
LaVey was an atheist (on the surface).
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
The way you are a theist on the surface?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
moot, not mute.
We are bound to make the choices we do by our nature, our experience, our reason, our beliefs, our current emotional state, our relevant memories, our prejudices and preferences, our knowledge, our current perceptions, ALL working in combination.
What else could there be, with or without the misconception called 'free will'? What does it refer to? A 'choice' based on a coin flip?
'Determinism' does NOT necessitate predictability, or even that if everything were reset to the same state, we would take the same path, due to the implications of Chaos theory, even without introducing Quantum uncertainty.
Only an ignorant medievalist like Jean would actually be surprised that thinking atheists do not necessarily believe in 'free will'.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I was going nuts until I finally gave up trying to correct everyone's grammar and spelling. It still causes my eyes to roll as I can't seem to stop that reaction.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Hi Bob,
I'm not meideval, but 1st century. (LOL). I say Holy Spirit, not Holy Ghost.
So we kind of agree. So even if Christianity was true, hypothetically speaking, you could not be a Christian since you do not have free will to be a Christian.
This is the logical consequent.
And this is what the Bible says.
Hey Witch, I have a verse for you:
Thou shall not suffer a witch to live (Ex 22:18) (KJV) (LOL).
Now look, witches that are hardcore don't advertisement. Michael Aquino may be a rare exception.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
You could be compelled by your training, your experience, your reasoning, faulty or not, etc, etc, to 'chose' to accept any position whatever, including something as batshit illogical and insane as yours.
Naturalistic determinism, when ALL the factors that 'determine' our choices are fully accounted for, is indistinguishable from the classic idea of Free Will.
Free Will is not so much a 'fantasy', it is an empty, meaningless concept. As put forward by Christians, it is an attempt to reconcile the idea of an omnipotent, benevolent Creator with the idea of sin and punishment for sin.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Hi Bob,
Free Will is not from the Christians. The Stoics invented in during the reign of Greek Philosophy. If you can choose not to be an atheist, then you have free will.
The absence of free will means that the worldview you hold now (atheism) is not by your own means. You are FORCED to be an atheist (or pagan).
And I am forced to be a Christian (and I want to be), just like you want to be an atheist.
Also, our desires are also a factor. God controls our desires thus making us want what we are bound to do.
John Cage went nuts trying to disprove this with "music." Look him up. As well as Jackson Polluck went nuts also trying to disprove this.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
Christianity is from the Roman pagan Paul - what's your point?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Of course the idea of Free Will goes way back, it is intuitive. Intuitions about our own nature are notoriously unreliable, but being intuitions, quite compelling. Such as the idea of there being a conscious 'agent' behind everything, and the idea of a 'higher power'.
Christianity adopted it, along with most of its other ideas, for the reasons I referred to.
Actually, we don't 'choose' beliefs, if they are genuine.
We adopt a belief based on how compelling it seems to us, how much it makes sense to us, as compared to any other ones on offer, or that we can personally come up with.
Free Will is meaningless.
Even if we 'choose' a position, such as Atheism, it will be a considered choice, based on our predispositions, such as an inclination to scepticism and/or free thought.
What would it mean to make a choice not based on some judgement, perception, inclination, preference, etc? If you have absolutely no basis, no grounds for a decision, how is it other than random?
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Hi Bob,
The Reformation faught against Roman Free Will. Then in 1618, via the synod of Dort, there was a fight. The Dutch Calvinists utterly destroyed them.
Then via George Finney and Wesley, Free Will crept into the church. This is due to the slick creep into the church via atheistic liberalism. Christians aren't trained to think today unlike me.
Now, while free will is false, you still choose. However, you choice is bound by your desire and your nature.
So via a valid argument, if all is evil to the core, then nobody can EVER choose good i.e. choose Christ. This is why Romans 3:10-12 says:
Nobody seeks God, nobody is good, no not one.
This is why in theology we say that regeneration precedes faith. Meaning, God changes our nature FIRST, in order for us to believe in Him which is good.
In Logic, ones choice corresponds to their nature, and vice versa.
So you chose to be an atheist, but that choice was via the desire God allowed you to have. God controls our desires, and He controls you.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
by three or four people at most....
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I'm shocked, I tell you. So, a few things can be deduced from that... 1, the difference is irrelevant; 2, the label is undistinguished; 3, there is no point iin using the label to begin with...
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
So, once again we see that, in your world, we are just God's playthings.
'Free will' justifies punishment as vengeance, retaliation.
'Determinism' supports punishment as a means of discourage anti-social behavior.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Too bad you didn't deduce that feeding the troll is boring and inane.
ciarin.com
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
I disagree, I find Jean highly entertaining. He's either a very good poe, and I respect that, or a very insane theist, and I find that entertaining... Either way, it is very funny.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
I find it boring. There's nothing new here. It's unproductive. Jean might as well spam goatse all over the forums.
Here's what I see:
"Blah Blah logical fallacy, logical blah fallacy, logical fallacy...Respectfully, Jean"
"OMG! That's a logical fallacy! You're so dumb!"
"No you're a logical fallacy, I pwn j00!!...Respectfully Jean"
"no u!"
Rinse repeat. We all know he's a troll/poe, this is why all the intros get a warning to ignore Jean(even though no one seems to be ignoring him). So annoying.
Now I remember why I lost interest in this site in the first place. Aside from the retarded blog/comment style forums which are ridiculous to navigate at times.
ciarin.com