blasphemy
Offline I would like to know what motivated you to take the blasphemy challenge if you believe that you cant be certain that it isnt real,
Im an atheist by the way its just this is something that has given me great anxiety and to you guys it seems like no big deal.
I would also like to know your opinions on it viewing it as a myth why would they say there was an unforgivable sin what was the motivation for writing this is why it has been so hard for me to fully know that it isnt real kind of like how theists believe in the gospels because they dont make since. and how come it is only mentioned once in the bible why doesnt paul mention it couldnt have been concieved after the epistles because they would have know it contradicted the message of jesus forgives all sins.
Seriously from a secular perspective what did it mean and who possible thought of it.
I dont understand why this isnt ever brought up.
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What i meant by that is if it was made up wouldnt they make it as coherent as possible.
Also excuse my grammar.
You forgot the J....
what j
Welcome to the forum.
I didn't take the blasphemy challenge, but I think I understand the feelings of the people that did. They are expressing that they have rejected popular religion and that they are not afraid.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Why do people need to be 100% certain that there is no intelligence to participate?
You mean, why were the authors of the Bible motivated to include an unforgivable sin? I don't know. It sounds nice? It works great as an appeal to fear?
Well, the Bible contradicts itself quite often.
Does Paul never mention it? I don't know.
A quick google search shows that it's mentioned at least three times.
LUKE 12:10 - "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
MARK 3:29 - "Whoever blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin."
MATTHEW 12:31-32 - "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
yeah but those three times its mentioned are from the same event
You mean, why were the authors of the Bible motivated to include an unforgivable sin? I don't know. It sounds nice? It works great as an appeal to fear?
yes but from the perspective that they thinks its real if they were just making it up what were they trying to establish for you to fear what.
also you cant participate in their purpose if you commited it so what was the point from the perspective that they think its real.
like if you blaspheme yahweh of jesus it can be forgiven but not the holy spirit even though there all supposed to be one.
It's still mentioned three times in the Bible. Only mentioned once by Jesus.
How about these two?
Hebrews 6:4-8 - “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case — the things that have to do with salvation.”
Hebrews 10:26-29 - “For we, sinning wilfully after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and fiery zeal about to consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think those deserve to be punished who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has considered as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who have insulted the Spirit of grace?”
I'm not sure what you mean.
Regardless of whether or not they thought it was real, there will be other people that think it's real. They didn't necessarily think about it that much anyways. People make stuff up all the time. History is rich with religious myths.
Eh, again, I'm not sure what you mean.
Lol, that's just how the Trinity works......or doesn't work, I guess.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I want to know what people who have studied the subject have to say about the theology of it. Like did the event in question actually happen was jesus actually casting out demons and the scribes when they accused him of doing these works from the power of beelzebub and them tell them this. Obvisouly you cant believe that if your an atheist bascially is an historical accurate thing or is it made up after the fact
yjmalmsteen
yngwie johan malmsteen
yngwie johan malmsteen
I didn't participate on the youtube Blasphemy Challenge. I wasn't aware of it at the time. But towards the end of my faith in god and in the church, I shouted blasphemy during my current troubles. It was during a very tough time in my life when I lost faith. But I came to the realization that nothing was hearing my prayers and it was foolish to be angry at something that I did not believe in any longer. In other words, it broke through the boundaries of my fear in god.
Are you like me, a former religious theist by any chance ? The psychological conditioning of my life placed religion in a place where I was afraid to question it for a long time. I was afraid to speak out against it as well, for fear of punishment. This type of fear persisted even after I finally had to abandon the church. To people who are not struggling with deconversion, it may not seem like a big deal. For me today, it is not a big deal, but I can clearly remember a time in my life when it would have been.
Well when you really think about it, why would an all powerful, all-knowing and all-loving deity even be possibly worried about ANYTHING that his creations say, if he existed ? Proof that the ideas of jealousy, wrath and vengence that many attribute to god are nothing more than the man-made constructs that invented god.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
yes i used to be a christian my whole life up until 21. Im completely convinced it isnt real yet i still carry the same kind of emotional baggage as if i was its been like this for over a year now.
I know theres not going to be a rapture or second coming but i just cant seem to feel peace about it.
I understand.
It took me quite awhile to completely get over alot of my notions and that self-inherent guilt that comes with Christianity.
I found quite a bit of relief when I turned to the Atheist writers like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Vic Stenger. Dan Barker's book Godless, which was the story of an evangelical minister who became an Atheist worked really well for me.
For awhile, after my deconversion of religion, there was feelings of despair and depression. For me, the cure was in seeking as much knowledge as I possibly could. The more I learned about evolution, the big bang, physics and that sort of thing, the more awesome all of the world became to me and I realized how dreadfully short-changed that religion had left me in my life.
There are quite a few of us on here that have been where you have been and made it through. Check out this thread for instance :
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/28680
And also, while your at it, check out this article by one of our RRS Authors. Sadly enough, he has not posted on here lately, but I think you might get alot out of this article. It is for new Atheists :
http://www.rationalresponders.com/new_atheists_really_all_there
Welcome aboard. You'll find that your not alone .
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
It isn't that we are unsure that it is a real threat, it isn't. It is a demonstration, first off, to atheists to be unafraid of declaring their non-belief. And to moderates and those on the fence that poking fun of fictional beings is nothing to be afraid of. It would be like calling Micky Mouse an asshole.
The only real threat in reality are the fans of these fictional gods. There most certainly is a real threat from people who want to defend these myths through politics and violence.
The "sin of blasphemy" is nothing more than a human literary device to market fear to keep people in line. In reality it is nothing but setting up taboos as a way of protecting one's "honor" which isn't "honor" but insecurity.
"blasphemy" is nothing more than the human ego saying "don't question me". It is the fear of being wrong.
We do not believe one word of that verse calling blasphemy the ultimate unforgivable sin. It is no different than the same sale of fear parents use on kids to get them to behave in order to get presents at Christmas, "He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when your awake. He knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake".
It takes the basic human evolutionary trait of cooperation "be good" and others will be more willing to help you. Be bad, and others will react to that behavior. It takes mundane human evolution and bastardizes it to comic book status.
And not for any selfless act that this alleged God demands that you don't blaspheme him, but for purely selfish reasons. It a reflection of our species own selfish desires. These myths are a mere reflection of human behavior, both good and bad.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I would like to know what you did I noticed in one conversation on here you were having with someone you said you werent afraid and said you deny the holy spirit but do you really think that is enough because what I did was a little more extreme involving profanity does stuff like that bother you. I cant stand atheists who have taken the blasphemy challenge and yet will tell a christian that if you have evidence they will change their mind but it would be too late for them unless their just saying that for the conversations sake.
Im open to anything that has evidence or reason but I believe christianity has been proven false if people continue to be irrational it will go on forever until we die out.
I only did what I did because I was thinking I cant let a superstion bother me my entire life its not like I said those things out of anger or meant it yet it bothers me from time to time.
By the way what thread am I thinking of where you were talking withthat guy who had a black guy for his avatar?
It has to be possible to get over this because when I was a christian I used to feel like s*** when I looked at porn but know I dont think nothing of it.
My parents arent very religious but my extended family is pentacostal and it really bothers me cause they focus on the tounge speaking so it always bother me going to church.
One time when I was pointing out some contradictions in the bible to my grandma said if youre looking for mistakes you will probably find them youre supposed to read with the right understanding of something like that she was basically saying its true no matter what so most of my life being rational or skeptical was a bad thing but that is my nature cause as far as I know im the only one in my family out of 34 cousins who is an atheist.
One of my cousins that im close to became and athiest before I did and gave me the nudge to go in that direction but like a few months later he was claiming that his dad new he didnt believe in god anymore and so changed his mind. Then we were talking one time and he said its not just that but theres evidence for noahs flood and the exodus story.
My family has never prophecied anything about my life but they claim they can well those kind of churches do. This kind of behavior is foreign to me why would people do this act like god is speaking through them to tell some one something. If you knew them you would see that there not crazy or deceptive so what leads to people doing this.
I feel like if I was raised baptist this wouldnt be nearly as hard.
I have the same thing. My sister also doubts faith (she's doing some course now, on knowing more about the Bible). And when I talk to her about it, I want to give her so much information that would convince her.
But it feels immoral to do so. Like I'm taking away something importance from her, whereas I know faith isn't anything good or important...
What do you guys thing of this?
I feel something similar. I typically won't argue with an older theist since they are more likely to be set in their thinking, use religion as an emotional shield against death, might not have time to create a secular world-view before death.
In their case I just don't see the point, as it has more potential to cause suffering than anything else.
Someone younger though I don't have any qualms about arguing. No problem with an older person who is an intellectual either.
I know where you are coming from though. We've been taught to respect religion for so long it is internalized.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
This isn't that complicated.
I'll type right now "Fuck Jesus"
I can also type "Fuck Allah"
I can also type "Fuck Richard Dawkins"
All of those utterances WILL invoke emotions of the fans of all of those.
What none of the reactions of the fans will do through political violence, is solve human problems we all have in common. All reacting to things you don't like to hear, through violence proves is that you don't like to have your feelings hurt.
I took the blasphemy challenge for one simple reason. To show that comic book superstitions are nothing to be afraid of. I most certain AM afraid of our species tendency to conflate labels falsely to some sort of special pleading when the reality is that we all die.
When any human can, in a lab setting, take a shotgun blast to the head, and regrow their head, IN A LAB setting. That would be fucking hard to ignore. Otherwise I'll stick to the fact that our species is more concerned with placebos than it is pragmatism.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
You seem to be missing the point I know you have it together but I dont and was just wanting some help
The first time I ever became intimate with a girl, or had a long term partner without being married, I felt inherent guilt. Especially with the few members of the family left that even speak to me,that referred to me as "living in sin". The rest of the family had already started to shun me for a a nonbeliever. Now I am not hung up about such medieval notions of morality either.
Sounds like the theists were doing the same thing to you that they used to try on me all of the time. Trying to discourage critical thinking and absently making claims that all contradictions in the bible can be simultaneously true. Nonsense. If they truly understood what they were advocating, they would have to admit to insanity. Kinda like people that try to tell me that god can be logical and illogical at the same time if he needs to be, that would not be possible. That is just people filling in all of the loopholes and gaps in their explanations to make it suit their needs. Ask them how they have come to these conclusions. Ask them how the "KNOW" this is what god is doing or what god wants. It is easy to see that they are just twisting things around to suit their god beliefs.
Very likely he was simply starting to doubt the faith and let himself fall victim to theist trickery. I have seen similiar experiences with people that are almost but not quite ready to deconvert. I used to be afraid of debating theists for a long time, because alot of their trick semantics and questions used to leave me feeling trapped and possibly wrong. But that is not the case any longer. With all of the info that I have today. I am not afraid to debate or argue any theist.
Meh, I was raised in a hard core Catholic home and it was pretty hard to deconvert. But it is possible for you to get out from under this and finally be free. There is hope.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
One of my cousins that im close to became and athiest before I did and gave me the nudge to go in that direction but like a few months later he was claiming that his dad new he didnt believe in god anymore and so changed his mind. Then we were talking one time and he said its not just that but theres evidence for noahs flood and the exodus story.
Very likely he was simply starting to doubt the faith and let himself fall victim to theist trickery. I have seen similiar experiences with people that are almost but not quite ready to deconvert. I used to be afraid of debating theists for a long time, because alot of their trick semantics and questions used to leave me feeling trapped and possibly wrong. But that is not the case any longer. With all of the info that I have today. I am not afraid to debate or argue any theist.
How do you quote when you want to just take a portion of what someone said?
It took me a few tries before I got the quote function down pat.
Here's is how you do it :
When you hit the quote button, the screen to reply comes up.
Let's use me for example and say that you are replying to my quote. At the beginning it will say [ quote=harleysportster ] [ /quote ] at the end. Do not put any spaces between the brackets and the words. I only spaced them to let you see what it looks like.
So, for whatever portion that you are replying to, simply put the brackets with quote=harleysportster in front of it and then on the end of that quote put the brackets with the /sign in front of the word quote.
I was about to copy and paste the link to the How to Use the Quote Function page, but I saw your comment over there about needing help. Here is a portion of her instructions :
If you wish to pick and choose or quote multiple posts, just make sure the text you are quoting begins with a left bracket ( [ ) then "quote=" and the user's name and then a right bracket ( ] ). At the end of the text you wish to quote, use a left bracket, then a slash followed by the word "quote", ending with a right bracket.
If you wish to comment between quote, just be sure you have matching beginning and ending quotes.
Let me know if you need more help.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
It might be easier if I just show you. I'll put spaces in between the brackets for a demonstration :
[ quote=harleysportster ]
The only zen that you find on the tops of mountains is the zen that you bring there [ /quote ]
Now, with no spaces in between the brackets, if you just took the quote = and the /quote and put them all together. The quote will look like this :
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I think you are missing my point.
You say you are unsure and need help. I am trying to give that help to you in simple language.
Here it is as simple as I can make it for you.
There is NOTHING to be afraid of by being skeptical or even blaspheming absurd claims.
Simple enough?
I think what you are "unsure of" subconsciously are the reactions of others(believers) might have to your doubts. Don't allow their insecurities and baggage to become yours.
From a human rights standpoint, everyone has the right to make any claim they want. But equally important, if not more important is the ability to question ANY claim on ANY subject. If we never question social norms our species never would have left the caves.
And please don't conflate my skepticism to "you have it together"
NO, I have one aspect of my life organized. But I am a human, I have the same emotions, desires, and flaws all humans have. I am one of 7 billion.
The only thing I do differently than most in our species, is scrutinize life more deeply. I am not special, nor rich, or right about everything.
My advice to you is to not take anyone's word for it, not even mine. The only way to insure quality of a claim is the ability to test the claim in a universally accepted setting.
We are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I would like to understand why I still cant get over this stuff. What part of the deconversion stage am I missing? I still feel reluctance to say things that I know to be true like my sister was saying her friend really liked this guy but he was a christian that didnt believe in hell and I was thinking thats great but didnt say anything and then my mom started talking about how the bible teaches about how drinkning is bad I couldnt hold back and brought up the fact that characters in the bible get drunk all the time but ddint mentioned the details like how lot was raped by his daughters and she made some kind of rationalization and then after that I felt I was a bad person for doing that.
Sometimes when I am talking with my cousin about it he has more authority than me and makes me feelk like shit like I dont know what I am talking about when I said that christians were delusional he refused to talk to me until I changed my attitude I should have just been like F*** you but I felt like crap and this one time we were wacthing the dailyshow with jon stewart and it was about the mosque issue and they said this country was a secular country so jon stewart played a clip of people saying this nation was founded on judeo/christian beliefs and I laughed and he wanted to know what I meant And I said even as a christian you cant believe that and he just went off on me and told me I wasnt a critical thinker and didnt do reasearch and just said what other people said, i was shaking the whole time. what should have happened was i just laughed at him for hos stupidity.
Why cant I just laugh at the fact that people believe this stuff. I still feel bad about the blasphemy stuff like I have done something terrible and im going to hell for it I get this sinking feeling in my stomach and I feel like I am giong to throw up. Thats why i am strating all these threads to try to increase my knowledge on the subject. But I know it isnt true and really the only point of doing anymore research would be to deconvert someone else. Thats another thing I feel bad when ever I think about deconverting my sister like she would go crazy and hate me if I changed her mind I went through alot when I left and it was heart wrenching but Know I am glad its not true but she doesnt seem like she would function without it. Basically if she wants to debate me I shouldnt feel bad since she is approaching me and if I happen to convinvce her its her fault and shouldnt feel guilty.
Can you guys try to address every thing i have said here I know my writing style is awful?
YJM,
You seem to be surrounded by people with tunnel vision, and very knee jerk responses.
That's not critical thinking. That's Pavlonian response.
Maybe you've heard of the experiments Pavlov did with dogs?
Theists response in a similar fashion. They 'hear' or 'see' something, and they 'default' to a conditioned response that they've been conditioned to.
I'm that way with seat belts. It was drilled into me, by schools, my parents, the television, etc...I can't drive out of the driveway without one on. It feels like I'm going to fall out of my seat, in a matter of speaking.
I empathize with you, but I cannot sympathize with you.
Others have told you about how they overcame their religious indoctrinations. I was never indoctrinated at all.
I look at religious people, the same way I look at vegans.
I don't know relate to what they're obsessing about, and they're mental hangups.
Life is good, eat a fricken' steak, already.
It won't kill ya.
I'm living proof.
I don't believe in Zeus, or Apollo, Santa Claus, or any gods.
They're just folklore.
The ancient scriptures are anecdotal. They're stories. Fables. Legend. Like the legends of sea monsters.
Maybe do some research on ancient cultures like the Egyptians or China, and realize that they were all superstitious cultures and all had token gods, and stuff.
This could be like kicking a habit with you, or getting over obsessing about an ex lover. It might take some time.
Just chill and hang around, and do some research.
You need to understand just how many millions, and millions, and millions of people have no jesus or god belief.
There are people on this forum who used to be priests and ministers, who walk away from religion.
Think about those kinds of things.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Look dont write a comment thats not helpful cause then everyone else will think they dont have to write something if it is helpful I know people where superstitious back then but I still deal with things let me give you an example when I was in middle school my friends would listen to heavy metal music like children of bodom and arch enemy and this stuff would scare me and I thought it was devil music by high school I got into power metal like heavenly virus and this stuff was more pleasant and by the time high school was over I was listening to arch enemy the agonist and meshuggah and loved it and realised that i had been conditioned to think that the world was evil. When I was out of high school was when my cousin started to become an athiest like I mentioned earlier and to me it was like no even an option I had always disagreed with christianinty but thought it was real so when I became an atheist I felt really good and discovered the law of attraction and that really got my attenition and i starteing doing that and some things happened that convinced me it was real. So anyways but then I smoked some weed with some friends and it felt horrible and it lasted for weeks and my dad was like(he knew i was an athiest) dont you think you should go back to god and even as horrible as it felt I said that isnt true . but then i couldnt take it any longer and called my grandma and said i had been running away from god and was living for myself so i went to her house and some people prayed for me and I felt better but when they talked to me afterwards i ended up arguing with them about certain things and my grandma said god wasnt logical I realized at the time she probably didnt realize what she was saying. So I was giong back to church and looking at things like the god delusion and god is not great and godisimaginary.com couldnt belileve taht there was this much info on christianity being falsed so I eventually stop going to church and because of the weed stuff i quit drinking which sucks and I still dont know what happened to me that day that caused me to feel that bad.
So basically I still struggle with having confidence away from religion yet didnt have it there either and still worry about hell on occasion and wish I could just shut down sometimes
1- Look, I'm not asking for orders. Don't tell me what to do.
2- Look, I was trying to be helpful. But, I'm not going to shed tears for you, because I don't sympathize.
3- Look, I tried. Maybe say thank you instead of having a freakout.
4- Look, maybe you need to see a professional...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Ok clearly you cant see me so you dont know how i meant that i was just saying some people have been helpful and i have seen a professional and she was a christian so we couldnt get along. see how you ddint comment on what i said thats all i meant if youre not going to help let someone else respond isnt this site to help people that was the impression i was under when i learned about the site from the brain sapient debate with ray comfort.
Well, I don't think it's meant as an alternative to therapy.
And we're not looking to 'hook anyone' into anything.
Forums like these are meant to educate people, with knowledge, and interact with each other, so people can make informed decisions.
We simply speak our minds, and share, and encourage people to think critically. But always make up their own minds.
There's no 'threat' to you if you don't do this, or don't do that.
No one here is going to menace you into becoming something other than what you are.
Quite frankly, a lot of us don't care for individuals we don't know.
We're not telling you that you are going to be 'loved' by other atheists, because you've become one.
That's how religions operate.
I mean, I can tell you that it's the best thing in the world for you, if you listen to me, but that's not fair to you. That stunt has already been pulled on you.
Atheism is not a doctrine, or a religion, or a dogma. It is to be absent from those things, and use your own judgment about things, and you making up your own mind.
We're not trying to 'get you to sign up', or 'sell' you any ideas.
Atheists are free to make up their own minds.
About anything and everything.
Kind of like snowflakes.
No two are the same, though they're all made of water, and together they form a pile of 'snow'.
No two atheists are the same, though we're all made of flesh and blood, and together we form a pile of 'atheists'.
This forum is absolutely loaded with information, for anyone who wants it.
And it's loaded with responses to challenges, criticisms and attacks, that are common from theists.
But, I think it's unfair to expect people to condense it down, and I think it's unfair to all those who spent many hours trying to be as elaborate and detailed in their explanations, in order to help those who truly want to feel assured that they're not making a very well informed choice.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
What do you mean by But, I think it's unfair to expect people to condense it down, and I think it's unfair to all those who spent many hours trying to be as elaborate and detailed in their explanations, in order to help those who truly want to feel assured that they're not making a very well informed choice.
Basically, help yourself to the wealth of information here, and what people are willing to share with you, and be grateful, instead of wanting people to spoon feed you, and adopt you.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
I understand I just got upset when you said that everyone has already answered my question as if i should just leave this thread alone the questions arent addressing specifically what im saying so ill keep rephrasing it until i get some info.
I was referring to all the threads, and blogs that exist outside of your threads. There was a lot of people who put a lot of effort into building the bulk of the content on this site.
Not to the ones who tried to help you personally.
Basically, if you're looking for people to find your needle in a haystack, that's going to break the camel's back for your to reconcile your feelings, I would say that you're being unreasonable, selfish, and lazy.
Believing in a god, is like believing that carrying a lucky rabbit's foot, is something that you'd be devastated over, if you lost it forever.
You're certainly able to discern on your own, what personal behaviours are acceptable. We have laws and cultures to guide us. And you can always move to another place that has laws and cultures that are less restrictive, if that is necessary for you.
Rejecting a god, is up to you decide, if that's what is best for you.
It's not up to atheists, to know what suits you best, or to convert you, personally.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
You just need time. You were raised a theist, that indoctrination (look up the word on dictionary.com or something) doesn't go away overnight.
Look at it this way, your family and friends spent years making you a theist. Why would you expect all that conditioning to go away overnight? Mine didn't.
Get lots of sleep, that helps process information. Start studying on your own, there have been lots of book recommendations, there are tons of websites. Keep asking questions here any other places. You don't need to confront your family and friends if you don't want to.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Hmm, check out these links that I have posted on a few other threads. I really think they are good for both new Atheists and Atheists who struggle :
http://www.rationalresponders.com/new_atheists_really_all_there
http://www.rationalresponders.com/doesnt_everyone_take_things_on_faith
http://www.rationalresponders.com/why_belief_ultimate_purposes_was_poison_me
http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=lostfaith
http://ffrf.org/legacy/about/bybarker/ethics_debate.php
Especially read this one :
http://www.afterfaith.com/?p=1169
http://www.afterfaith.com/?p=1169
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Thanks for the advice and yes my intermidiate family knows I am an atheist and some of my other family members I am talking about just being able to talk about this stuff without feeling negative feelings you know feel good about being an atheist and not like my family has to be disapponited in me if anything I should feel dissapponited in the fact there isnt anyone else in my family who doesnt see this stuff for what it is.
By the was it accurate to tell him that are nation was not founded on christian principles?
Nope, the United States never was founded upon nor was ever intended to be a christian nation :
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2009/04/14/christian_nation
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/06/obama-us-not-a-christian_n_183772.html
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
EDIT : I encounter alot of theists that wish to push this argument. If you need any further links, any rebuttals, or any counter-arguments, just let me know.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Depends on what you mean by founded on Christian values. I always feel like the 'atheist' side of this argument is arguing on a technicalities.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
To me the only thing that would america a christian nation is everything was done in the name of jesus like our police had christain associated slogans on thier buildings and cars all our schools were christian schools. The reason I want say if we upholded the laws of the bible is becuase the only rules are in the mosaic law(mostly) and the christian doctorine doesnt seem to find them of great importance. In fact the very fact that this nation is what it is disproves the bibles notion of a apocalyptic nature and the end of the world. So any one who took christianinty seriously wouldnt be concerned about starting a nation that beleives in secular values where people can take the path they want to travel. I can't believe christians think this.
My cousin after I told him this nation isn't christian he said that the constitution says do not kill andI said plenty of religions and cultures have those rules and he said how come people still kill then, at that point I was like so youre saying it does no good to write down do not kill, talk about asainine. How could anyone think this is a christian nation because it says do not kill and do not steal and actually I dont think it says those things in that way anyway its already implied.
America is not "One Nation Under God".
American law does not follow the bible.
Nor do most of it's citizens.
Slavery is illegal.
Evolution is taught in American schools, not the accounts of Genesis.
Homosexuality is not condemned.
Premarital sex is not condemned.
Sodomy is not condemned.
Abortion is not condemned.
Drunkenness is not condemned.
Heresy is not condemned.
Rejecting gods are not condemned.
Adopting another faith is not condemned.
Blasphemy is not condemned.
Making graven images is not condemned.
We need not honour our mother and father.
Coveting is not condemned.
Sunday is not a national holy day.
Adultery is not condemned.
I'm pretty sure those are correct.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Can I ask you a question concerning blasphemy?
This is a different question for now but I would like to get a little back and forth going so I can clarify what I am giong through.
I started this thread because I wanted to focus on blasphemy of the holy spirit and everyone has focused on blasphemy in general which is fine since I wasn't to direct at the beggining. Those links you gave me are really good but I feel like I am quite a bit past that stage. For as long as I was an atheist I guess I thought if I got cold feet on my death bed or if new evidence came up to change my mind I could always repent but when I heard about the blasphemy challenge I thought these people are doing this like its nothing and thought I could never do that but back in december I was doing some brushing up on why the bible isnt true and it was so reaffirming that I said in my mind to show I wasn't afraid anymore that the holy spirit is bullshit and I started getting nervous like now if its real I've sealed my fate. It progressively got worse that I would try to study up on what it meant and feel good when some christians would say that an atheist couldn't commit it or that it no longer applied since jesus's death but this wasn't too compeling beacuse why would it be in the bible if it did not apply what was the purpose if it wasn't relevant. This bothers me though cause now I am trying to convince my self that I didnt do it but if it isn't real it doesn't matter one way or the other. Some christians believe it still applies and I wouldnt know who has the right interpetation cause it isn't real so it doesn't matter. The church I went to focused so much on speaking in tounges and prophesying that the holy spirit was something regularly on my mind I wanted to speak in tounges and never could so this made me think I wasn't doing something right. Everything about our history and the contradictions of the bible its so easy to believe it isn't real yet when I think about the expierences that happened at that church its hard to come up with a natural cause for everything that goes on in there. I was prophesied to several times one about god having a girl for me and that I would play the guitar for him. These didnt come true but a christian could say its cause you don't believe anymore, this actually caused a great deal of stress about dating anyone cause I thought god would be upset and I didn't play the guitar as much as because I knew I was supposed to play for god but I was more interested in secular music so this caused me guilt. When I would ask my grandma about things concering god and christianity she would speak in tounges mid sentence and I would ask her about it and she would say it was the holy spirit witnessing to me, which now thinking back it bothers me alot. This is causing me an enourmous amount of stress that it feels like my deconversion process has went back to square one. I can't understand why I actually think I could go to hell for an eternity for doing something so trivial. I feel that I need to get this out cause if I try to repress it will just keep bothering me and really need some help on how to fight this twofold sometimes I think the only solution is suicide but ruining the happiness of my family isnt worth it. I think sometimes the only way I could get over this is if the whole world gave up on religion. I'm not crazy I just put so much importance on the holy spirit growing up that it has emotional stuck with me and have developed unhealthy reactions to it. There is more to what happened at the beginning of the year before I started this thread but I will let this sink in first.
Well, you're breaking at least one commandment. Maybe a few more...
YJM has been a wiccan, and occultist since he was a teenager, who constantly wore the pentagram based on the Sigil of Baphomet, and you've made him an idol, obviously.
Tsk, tsk...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
I didnt know that. In an interview of his he was talking about how lucky he is and thanks the lord(as he put it) everyday. Although I guess he just meant it in a generic way.
When I was young, my mom always said she wanted to raise us to be independent. Able to think for ourselves. She may have done too good of a job with me, or maybe I was just born that way. It is interesting to talk about what we think, and I am interested in what someone else may think, but I have never had any inclination to change my mind based on what other people think.
So I may solicit opinions, and sometimes those opinions may be important to me, but they are not so important I am going to be upset about what someone else thinks.
My very best friend in junior high was a preacher's kid. Her dad was preacher for the local Foursquare Gospel church. Heard of them? They didn't roll around in the aisle's - at least not in this church - but speaking in tongues happened every service. And because she was my best friend, I went to every service.
How to speak in tongues. Turn off your brain - let it just get into a meditative state. Start saying whatever nonsense syllables you can think of - la, blah, da-da-da, etc. Half close your eyes to keep a watch on what other people are doing to be sure they are suitably impressed, but not so open people can guess you are not really in a trance. I tried this a couple of times and the preacher's family would be all around me praising god, blah, blah. I noticed the old lady who was the wealthiest in the congregation and who put the most money in the collection plate, would watch me and if she thought I was getting too much attention, she would deliberately raise her hands and start bla-bla-ing herself.
Score extra points if you can work yourself up to tears and/or hysterical screaming - megapoints for fainting. They didn't do that in your church? It wasn't all fake? You weren't watching close enough. I'm not saying it was all calculated and thought out, I'm saying, people can work themselves up and do the stupidest things.
It is a kind of group hypnosis. Mob behavior. We all get together and yell and scream, and later we don't know why we were such stupid jackasses. Except for penecostals, they can feel all warm and fuzzy about how they were chosen by the holy spirit. I just can't fool myself that far.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.