How do they connect the dots?
Offline So.... everytime I dare to share my beliefs.... or should I say disbeliefs, I always hear the same thing. Excuse me while I rant.
Every believer says the same thing. "Look around you at the beauty of the world, look at how all the ecosystems co-exist, yada, yada... How can you not believe that there is intelligence behind it?"
So here's what makes me crazy.... yeah, ok, MAYBE there is some intelligence greater than ours, who knows? But how on earth do you get from that to the idea that this great intelligence listens to your prayers, loves you, or cares about whether or not you commit a "sin"?
I just had a conversation with an otherwise intelligent person. They seem to just jump from A to B without a second thought. It's so completely irrational, I just can't wrap my head around it.
Iknow I'm preaching to the choir, but sometimes I just need to rant
- Login to post comments
Sometimes, when people give me that argument I start flooding them with a whole bunch of scientific facts that sail right over their head but stumps them in their self-assured tracks.
For instance, when someone says to me "How could you possibly believe that all of this could have been the product of chance?,". The first point that I start with is the fact that 99% of all the species that were here at the dawn of time have all become extinct. Would a creator deliberately create life forms that could not survive harsh conditions or adapt and just allow them to die off ?
Point out to them all of the various diseases that have caused the deaths of millions of people before our immune systems adapted. Did god create the Black Death of the Middle Ages ? Did God create the sweating sickness that decimated Europe not once but twice ? Did god create the bubonic plague ? Did god create HIV that attacks the immune system ? The immune system is the only thing that our bodies have to ward off diseases, so if people believe that an intelligent creator is behind all of this, that would imply that god deliberately manufactures diseases that would become more adapt at killing their human hosts.
Point out to them that our eyes are wired in backwards and not functioning to their full capability. Did god decide to limit my eyes ?
Point out to them, that although they are looking at a sunset and calling it beautiful and a miracle, that they are being inherently selfish to think that an entire universe is revolving around them while people are subjected to disease, poverty, war, changing eco systems, etc. etc.
There are hundreds of more arguments. But these are a few quick rebuttals to come at them with.
BUT, never let them get away with the god of the gaps argument. (My favorite rebuttal to most of these people) Tell them : So, if you can not explain or grasp the idea of something, you automatically attribute it to god ? Hmm, good thing that humanity has never adopted your thinking. When the people of the Middle Ages could not explain the concept of germs, they often attributed it to God's punishment to the wicked. When ancient people could not understand the functions of the sun. they attributed it to a god. When ancient Chinese experienced eclipse, they assumed that a giant dragon was eating the sun and beat drums and cymbals to frighten it away. When the people of medieval Europe saw a raven flying near their house, it meant that death was on the way.
So, I tell them, by their logic, if something can not be explained, it is better to embrace superstition rather than look for a scientific explanation ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
A point rather close to what I have been pushing lately.
If indeed a vastly powerful, intelligent entity did exist, how could you possibly know anything about its motives, its intentions toward us, if any, etc?
It would have ample power to make us perceive anything it wanted, to endlessly play with us, fool us, whatever.
It would be logically impossible to know anything with any confidence about it, or about anything, since it could change the nature and state of the Universe, and indeed our own minds, at anytime, at a whim.
Apart from the fact that a real familiarity with the history and state of the world would lead more logically to the conclusion that if there was such a being in control of things, it seems to be far more likely to be a malevolent than a benevolent being. Or perhaps a prankster, playing with us, seeing how we react to all kinds of disasters, to the effects of all the diseases it created to plague us, and so on.
It shows up clearly in the so-called Cosmological, or First Cause, Argument for 'God'. If there was indeed a 'First Cause", how do you get from that to it being an intelligence, let alone anything matching any of the conceptions of 'God' in the Bible??? But they just jump from a 'first cause' to a specific God...
The wishful thinking, the self-delusion, at the heart of these 'faiths' is just so f**king obvious...
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
When religious people hear A and they instantly blurt out B, this is not rational. It's Pavlov's reflex. Parents brainwashed their children, destroyed their autonomous thinking and implanted them "answers" or better said, pre-defined reactions.
In my village there is a lot of young Christians. My younger brother and his girlfriend like to probe into their beliefs. (me too but I'm a little too old for them) They observed, that on the A(theistic) question the Christians always blurt out the reflexive B(iblical) answer. No matter of their own experiences.
My brother's gal likes to give the young Christians really tough questions. For example, what if someone would kill all your family? Would you forgive him? What if your loved one would suffer extremely on deathbed, by an incurable disease, would you allow him to end the life by euthanasia? What about you in that situation? What if surgeons would save your life? Who did it, God or the surgeons who studied and worked so hard? Should we thank God for not sabotaging the surgeons' skills?
If they are asked directly to give their own opinion, not biblical, to think, they hesitate, they only give some vague answer. Even if rarely some Christian starts thinking a little and says something not exactly biblical, there's another Christian nearby who shuts their mouth. "No, we should NOT give euthanasia. There is ALWAYS a HOPE for MIRACULOUS healing!" (yeah, that's what one young Christian guy really said)
And so, they sabotage each other's thinking to reassure their faith. They're like rats in bucket, they can't get out and if any rat starts climbing up out of the bucket, it's immediately pulled down by the others.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Good questions. Getting the theist to think hard and talk straight from the gut is always a winner, It shows time and time again they are battleing with the contradictions internally. For example when you ask a "hellfire" creationist (especially one that cares about you, and in front of other people=bonus) if your going to hell, 9 out of 10 times you'll get something like this:
You: Am I going to hell?
Friend: That's not for me to decide.
You: Do you believe the bible is god's word
Friend: Yes
You: By your understanding of your gods laws on apostacy, are apostates going to hell.
Friend: If they do not turn it around before they die, yes
You: So you believe I am going to hell
Friend: It is not my decision
You: You've already awnsered the question, no need for an awnser. Will you be happy in heaven while good people like me and "jen" and "mike" and your aunt and uncle are burning in hell? Imagine that image played for eternity? How could you enjoy your time, would that not bother you? If your loved ones being tormented eternally for finite crimes doesn't bother you, do you not think that is a big problem? Would you eventually forget about them, no longer hear their screams?
Friend: It is not my decidsion, you don't understand..., god is...ctrl-alt-del
Theists have a hard time wresling with these glitches and brain farts they ponder, it can be entertaining sometimes, getting them emotionally involved in an obvious contradiction that leads to them talking in circles. They often mean well, but have no real clue how to put their religious beliefs together harmoneously without contradicting themselves, leading to unethical conclusions, and leading to an unethical god and structure he created.
Their are so many ways to go about it, but I like the getting them to talk from the gut approach, ask alote of hard opigion questions, and really just watch them defeat themselves. What I see time and time again is that devout religious folk REALLY dont seem to understand why it makes no sense go from the reasonable position A)- "a god like entity may exist" (a position that doesn't bother me in the least) to B)-That god like entity is the god of my religion, and he loves us, and slaughters us, he is the 3 O's, and is obsessed with sex, he's watching you know...or whatever naked assertions about his personality and character they spew from their holy book of choice. They really don't seem to get or care that they are asserting unknowable truths about a deity they couldn't possibly know exists because it says so in a book, 1 of many thousands of books about deity's. It is utterly absurd, yet they still have no problem using words on paper to prove unknowable truths about "god", and it seems this isn't stopping anytime soon.
How do they connect the dots?
It's easy. They watch Glenn Beck compare anyone who has lunch with a democrat to Hitler...then all the other dot connecting doeasn't seem so crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JngI1_8beoA
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
I've had times that I've had to force myself not to log in for a couple of weeks and just try my best ignore certain threads and I've only been on here for a few months. I've had the same issue with some atheists on here too though. Just not regarding religion.
Since taking a brief break, I've realized they have the same mindset we do. Mine being that I can't understand how they can give all this credit to their supernatural being in the sky. Theirs being that they can't understand how we can't believe in the suoernatural being in the sky. I've recently come to grips with it being a neverending argument. They will always push it in our face and they will always believe in that delusion.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.