The concept of hell
Offline Not only is it not mentioned in the bible, but was introduced in the dark ages, it also makes no sence whatsoever. I am really surprised so many people dont see that big illogicallity in the concept.
First of all the devil is a fallen angel who rebells against god. So far so good. He works against god. THEN WHY THE FUCK DO YOU BELIEF ON THE OTHER HAND HE PUNISHES THE SINNERS ? Wouldnt that be working FOR god, taking care of a lot of work for him ? I mean which is it now, does he work against god, or does he work for him ? He can hardly do both ! And if he reall is away from god, why should he do all the work punishing sinners ? Seems to me like an important job god would entrust to one of his best archangels (at least as supervisor), not his mortal enemy who gives a fuck about what god wants if we belief what we otherwise hear from him.
In the bible he is mentioned as the big trickster and the big seducer, who tries us to lure away from god. But what for, so he is stuck with us ? Why should he punish us if we followed him ? Thats hardly the way to recrute people.
Or do you think god tricked him into this position ? He is the big trickster for crying out loud, i mean i can believe that god is smarter than him, but not that he is dumb enough to let anyone trick him till the rest of eternity.
Also the other not so well known hells dont make sence. Apparently there was this hell for all the forfathers till jesus came along and freed them. If god is kindand loving why would he let all those people wait for hundreds some even thousands of years till christianity came around ? Its harldy their fault being born to early, so why should they have to wait in hell till jesus frees them.
Then there is a hell for unchristened babys, if they die to quick. WTF ? What are they being punished for ? Having slow parrents, a slow priest ?
So all in all, however you turn it, hell doesnt make any sence whatsoever. None of them. If i left out any feel free to add them.
Be patient: English is not my first language.
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I would have to think that if there is a hell, then it's got to be ten times better than heaven. I agree with the above question on why y would satan punish those who turn away from god for god? Makes no sense to me at all. I don't believe in heaven or hell but anyway, I have heard christians all of my life talking about streets of gold and all the happiness people will have there. Also how they want to be there with their loved ones so they do all they can to make their children and everyone they love believe in the word of this god so that they will get to heaven with them.
First of all if it's your soul that goes, how in the hell would you even remember anyone that you loved while you were alive? That question puzzled me as far back as I can remember. Your brain is dead and without it you are a vegetable. People in hospitals who have no brain activity at all don't even know they are in this world. Also people with amnesia, what if you died from a major blow to the head which would have cause amnesia only you died? Seems to me they are trying to find ways to convince themselves into believing because it all sounds so good. To good to be true that is.
As far as hell goes, all my life I have heard that if I do all the fun things I want to do, then I am surely going to hell. I guess because I'm listening to the devil and letting him take over my thoughts? So I guess because I had premarital sex and ended up pregnant as a teenager I'm going to hell. Nevermind the fact that I didn't abort her and raised her to be a pretty good kid. That doesn't matter. I'm a bad girl. Now of course I was raised in the bible belt- sweet home Alabama! Lol it's really not. So everybody has something to say about everybody. What always got me was how those same people who tell you that you're going to hell are the same ones backstabbing you by telling EVERYBODY they know about your personal business. Of course adding to the story as they tell it.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Since i dont believe in the concept of hell it doesnt make sence to speculate. But i am sure that in gods eyes a young mother who made a dumb mistake and got pregnant but now make sup for it by trying to be a good mother is much better that those old hags trying to make your life miserable. They call themselves better christins than you ? The nerve, what about love your next and help other people ? Jesus clearly told that god pays more attention to what you do than to how often you go to church. I am sure those who think going to church is enough, and the rest of the week they can be an arsehole par exelance are in for a big surprise.
Be patient: English is not my first language.
Well since I do not claim to be a christian they can call themselves better christians if they want to I guess. Now whether or not they are better people....no. So I really don't see how those kind of people actually think they are going to a place called heaven. Of course my take on it is when I die, I just die. That's it and that's all she wrote. I won't be rewarded for any good I did on this earth after the fact and maybe not even while I am on this earth. But at least I can die knowing I did try to b a good person.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
I actually don't agree with this. I agree with the rest of it, I think. I didn't read it too carefully.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
feyn,
Most don't look at as Satan doing the punishing - God is the one doing that. And yes, Satan works for God when God needs him to so (Adam, Eve and Job come to mind if you take the stories seriously).
The idea of Hell makes no sense. Same goes for a lot of other stuff in that book.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Those sound a little ambiguous; aren't there some more explicit parts?
Everlasting destruction could be equivalent to mere oblivion/nothingness. The lake of fire might just gobble you up and make you... gone. The wailing and gnashing of teeth don't sound fun, but it isn't explicit on how long.
Obviously it's nasty whether the pain and horror lasts ten seconds followed by oblivion, or indefinitely... but I thought there were some more explicit verses?
Feyn,
As to hell, if it did exist (obviously impossible since gods don't exist, but that aside);
YHWH is supposed to be more clever than Lucifer, so tricking wouldn't be out of the question with the foresight and all...
But, there's also that YHWH supposedly had angels dictate the bible, and he's lied to people before- so it would be fully consistent that YHWH is just lying to people using the bible to get them to avoid hell, when in reality hell is the shit and Lucifer is totally cool.
Maybe YHWH's heaven is actually the lake of fire, and he needs nice, clean-burning sin-free souls to fuel it. Kind of like dry firewood; sin does something nasty to the fire, or makes too much smoke for some reason. Either way, for whatever spirit mojo factory he has going on and needs souls to fuel, sin is a no-go.
Either way, taking the Christian bible at face value, dictated through men (who lie), and angels (who have been evidenced to lie), which still supposedly comes ultimately from YHWH (who is also a liar), doesn't make a whole lot of sense no matter how you slice it- even if you pretend that it is free from contradictions (liars can be consistent in their lies; the best liars are).
What is this either/or with humans?
Heaven as believers would sell you, sounds nice, but in reality has logical and moral flaws.
Hell, as believers would sell you, sounds bad, but also, in reality has its logical and moral flaws.
I don't think life is either or.
I think you do good, not out of fear of punishment or reward.
I also think that "hell" is not a utopia in that "I get to do what I want".
How about this. BOTH are bullshit stories and reality isn't about total submission to the god gang leader, neither is life about total anarchy.
I don't like either story. I don't like the idea that the one life I get is all about sucking up to one being just to put that being on a pedestal without question. But, I also don't find hell or Satan desirable either just because this character says, "You'll have more fun here because I have no rules".
NEITHER to me are desirable.
AS the biblical characters are written, they are collaborators and neither are concerned with human suffering. They are only concerned with self glorification.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Not sure what sort of theist you are but I generally agree with what you are saying here. I think we should broaden it tho'.
Hell makes no sense. The devil makes no sense. Archangels make no sense. It all makes no sense. Punishment for babies? That's just a vile scare tactic.
The only thing that makes sense is that there is no god. That we made him up so as to escape our hurtful awareness of death.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Well, it is not true that hell does not appear in the bible. There are, in fact, twenty two separate mentions of the general idea. However, it should be noted that they are mainly concentrated in the NT as the Hebrews did not really have the concept in any way that we would understand it today.
Rather, the Hebrews seem to have been influenced by the Greeks. The general idea of Hades/Sheol is pretty much just a sleepy place where nothing of not ever happens because the dead simply do not care about earthly things.
There is one mention in the apocrypha of Tartarus, which is a place of punishment. However, it was not a place that most people would ever end up. Rather, it was saved only for the worst scoundrels in society.
Most of the concept that wee consider to be hell comes from Ge Hinom/Gehenna. This one we have nailed down pretty conclusively. It was actually the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. Like all good garbage dumps, it was pretty much always on fire. It also happened to be the place where the temple authorities would dump the bodies of people who, for various reasons, could not be buried in religious cemeteries.
So actually, the dozen or so times that jesus talked about being sent to the pit of fire for one's sins, he literally meant being sent to a real place that everyone knew about.
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Maybe. Actually, yeah, I think I have some better verses.
How about this? Both the KJV and the NIV actually use the term hell.
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." Mark 9:43-49 (KJV)
Or, how about somebody talking while they're being tortured in hell?
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell (!!!) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." Luke 16:22-24 (KJV)
The ones I posted before seem pretty explicit already though.
"flaming fire taking vengeance....everlasting destruction." Taken at face value, the text implies that the everlasting destruction involves flaming fire, so I don't see how the everlasting destruction could be just nothingness. If you consider all three verses together, then furnace of fire must = flaming fire which = lake of fire. If not, then the Bible would be inconsistent in what it's claiming here (Of course, the Bible often is inconsistent, but that's somewhat off topic). So, if you synthesize all the information, then you can get, essentially: Whoever doesn't obey the gospel of Jesus Christ will be cast into a furnace of fire where they will be punished with everlasting destruction and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
That one seems a little more explicit, but maybe it's just the literal worms that don't die? The dialogue with the guy burning in hell is the most explicit, though, it still doesn't say how long he was burning for; maybe he went *poof* right after and then was just destroyed (with that fact of him being destroyed not being reversed).
Everlasting destruction could be simply destruction, the effects of which are everlasting (being destroyed)- in contrast to being resurrected at some point.
One must be very explicit with scripture, lest people worm their ways out of the implications. Contradictions are to be expected- and ignored...
If you're going to argue bible, you have to use special 'biblical logic'
And if you can't find something explicit, then you can assert something else that might be possible given the scripture with which the fideist will disagree- I can argue some pretty interesting and consistent scenarios using creative biblical interpretation- and then try to get the person to disprove it in a way that will prove your point (that it's all subjective nonsense anyway)- and then when the person says his or her interpretations are all guided by his or her god, you can demonstrate other "god-guided" interpretations that are different until the person feels very alone, being the only truly god-enlightened person on Earth; either he or she will actually start to second guess his or herself, or you've got a genuine nutter on your hands (maybe a new prophet?).
Most people, at that point, will start second guessing themselves, and admit to not knowing it all; deferring to the opinions of a canon (X church). If you have quite a bit of free time, then, you can dismantle the canon of that particular interpretation... but then they can just switch canons on you. You'd have to do it for as many distinct interpretations there are... and, well, I somewhat doubt that anybody has that much free time (whether the debunker or the theist).
The best way to stop that wild goose chase, IMO, is just to get out of the scripture if there's nothing explicit enough to prove something without any doubt.
At the point they admit that they have personal guidance from their god, I think the best approach is to agree that the scripture isn't really necessary at all, and move into existential philosophy, logic, and science to debunk whatever comes into their heads about their god.
That's why I'll gladly muck around with scriptural interpretation as much as any of them do- because it doesn't really mean anything coherent, and I think we should be demonstrating that. Fight fire with fire until they agree to put the matches away and focus on something more concrete- at least, that's my take on it.
The idea is that the worms don't die and they are constantly eating you (a la Prometheus and his liver eating bird))
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
But it doesn't say that explicitly. Your idea of what it means it about as relevant to a Christian as a blind person's opinion of a painting- they believe you are spiritually blind, and that your interpretations are wrong if there's any room at all to get around it.
The worms could just be special immortal worms that can live in fire, without food. Or maybe they just get fed often enough with new bodies.
OK, I can't say that this connects or not. However, historically, there was a view that worms caused dental pain. Apparently, if you break open the center chamber of a live tooth, what is inside looks a little bit like a worm, so it was believed that the worm was the problem.
Of course, if you have ever had that kind of pain, you would know some real torment, at least until you saw a dentist. Now imagine a few centuries ago when the only thing that you could do was wait until the worm died for the pain to go away.
As I say, it is only a conjecture. However, it seems more likely than the earthworms in graves.
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I must also say that the 1 verse sounds to me more like destroyed forever without a chance of resurrection that eternal suffering. It seems to indicate that your soul is destroyed there and you cease to exist.
Be patient: English is not my first language.
^ I rest my case.
The worms in the teeth thing was interesting, though.
http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell
Key passages that talk about eternity:
Daniel 12:2-3-Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence. 3 But the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavenly expanse. And those bringing many to righteousness will be like the stars forever and ever.
Matthew 25:46-And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Those seem pretty clear to me.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Yes, they do in indeed- those are comfortably explicit. I don't think there's any worming out of that eternal punishment
Thank you, sir!
That is a back peddle. The would be no reason for the passage talking about God being jealous. There would be no need for a final battle that lifts the believers up and allows the outsiders to be tortured.
Even if I wanted to agree with you, which I don't. Why any of the drama? God doesn't have to allow us to suffer but he does.
The book was not written by societies that valued pluralism back then. The god character represents the wishes of tribes and that other tribes would be defeated and punished, because in reality thats what all religions of all cultures did back then even before monotheism.
Deities reflect the wishful thinking of humans in wanting to be protected and wanting to win and be on top. It is a psychological myth made up to explain what we didn't know then. Humans strive to protect those closest to them and desire to be protected, and desire to win and gain resources. Deities are merely fictional representations of human desires.
It is a reflection of our own human narcissism.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
But, let's say I'm a Christian that doesn't believe in hell. How could I try to weasel out of this?
Maybe the eternal punishment is just the death of your soul. You're gone forever. That's a punishment, and it's eternal.
Ooohh, but the one from Daniel is harder to deal with. Maybe it's metaphorical? Or, maybe it's just shameful and abhorrent to be gone forever? I can definitely imagine a theist arguing that.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I can see your first argument- the other is tricky...
I've got it- the shame isn't everlasting for you... it's just shameful, in the eyes of those looking on. And the everlasting abhorrence... well, abhorrence just means hate. It means god will hate you forever... that's why he makes you not exist, because he's pure good and loves all of his children, so it would be impossible for him to hate you if you existed. He hated you right out of reality.
I think the problem is, for a liberal theist, when you combine these verses that are crystal clear about eternity with the verses that are crystal clear about hell being fiery and painful...well, I'm not sure how you wiggle out of it without saying vast swathes of scripture are metaphorical.
I know some heavyweights in the theological world thought hell was non-literal, just a separation from God...John Paul II, Billy Graham, etc. but I'm not sure how they actually justify it.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm Things like this go into what they believe, but they quote passages literally for eternity and heaven, then use literal passages in the O.T. to justify hell being a separation from God, but as soon as it hits the N.T. it says everything is figurative and it isn't really hell fire...but they don't explain *why* the N.T. passages are non-literal.
So I'm kind of stumped.
Stuff like this: http://www.biblemaster.com/studies/study.asp?study_id=213 seems to indicate that the non-literal view of hell is mostly because some theists cannot accept that the character of God would allow an eternal fiery doom, but there isn't any Biblical justification for that concept, just wishful thinking.
I'd like to hear from someone who knows more though, now I'm curious!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
This does make some sense. In high school, I had the entire top of my tooth come off one day while in class. Literally, the edges remained while the inside was completely exposed. I survived the days until I could get into the dentist with an aspirin crushed into the cavity. Hurt getting it in, but it did dull the pain somewhat. I could see the tooth and yes, it does look a little like a worm. And I could imagine coming up with an entire fantasy story about worms and pain and wormy death.
PS: Try to arrange your live where you have dental care available or you have adequate flouride in the local water supply.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
All one has to do is wake up next to my ex wife to know that this is true...
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