Testing my faith
Posted on: February 26, 2010 - 9:23pm
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Testing my faith
Hi, my name is paul and I am a "Born Again" Christian and as far as I know I am allowed to post on this sight so long as I'm respectful and polite. Basically what I want to do is test my faith by exposing it to Atheist rebuttal. So if you wouldn't mind please give me your number 1 damaging argument that, you feel, demolishes Christianity. I will try and respond with an answer. Yes I would love to convert you to Christ (is what we do) but still I do want to test the faith and see if it can stand. Thanks in advance. Paul
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Hi and welcome to the RRS. My name is also Paul and I'm an ex-Christian. I was raised in a very religious home, went to parochial schools and even considered the ministry. I was originally a Missouri Lutheran and converted to Catholicism when I a married a Catholic at 19. I have studied theology and have a grad degree from a Jesuit University.
I consider god belief to be based on legends, myths, and fictional literature. Christians have morphed Jewish belief into a new direction similar to fitting a square peg into a round hole. Most have no real understanding of the foundations of Jewish belief and misinterpret the scriptures to suit their belief. Not that the Jews have any basis with their belief either, but Christians have even less.
It would help if you suggest exactly what your beliefs encompass and why you consider them to have any basis in reality.
Most "Born Again" Christians have what I call a significant emotional event that turned them in the direction of Christianity. Sometimes its loss of a loved one, a girlfriend, drug use, alcohol, or even crime. If you had such an experience please explain.
I'm not sure if I want to convert you to the dark side and share our special receipe cookies with you or not. We'll see.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I am a life long atheist, never believed, studied religions, but never believed in them, however I don't have 1 argument or 1 statement that devastates christanity, it's a due to a bunch of them all together, the reality for me is, there is no proof that any god(s) exist for any religion. That's it that's all, no theists has ever presented any evidence to prove any god exists.
Your Yoshua bar Yussuf is a fictional charactor. The charactor was invented by an oppressed middle eastern sect, living outside their Judaen homeland. It was invented by a few migrants to ease the oppression of their Roman overlords, they made offerings at an official Roman Temple, then went home and practiced their own religion at home. Through a few generation those Judaens who were offering to Zoarastria combine Lord Mithra's aspects (dating from 600 BCE) with the promised Massiah from the old testament. These Jews who believed the Massiah had already arrived were small in number but pre-date 100 BCE.
Saul of Tarsus was in the middle of driving orthodoxy into these Judaens when he had his now famous epilleptic fit (or bi-polar episode) on the road to yet another Massionic community in Damascus. Saul not only joined them but do to his extensive PR work invented christianity.
Even Julius Caeser wrote about devout Judaens who lived in his mothers apartment building {they taught him Hebrew btw} who went around the corner to VATICAN HILL and made offerings to the main Zoarastrian Temple. The head priest was called the Papa, minor priests were addressed as pater. Caeser was writing of a time 90 or so years before the supposed birth of christos or circa 150 years before St.Paul forgot to take his meds.
Lord Mithra was called, among other things, 'the light of light', 'the only begotten son of god', 'true god of true god', 'the light of the world', 'he who saves us from the darkness. Does any of this sound familier? Mithra was born on the 25th of December, with the arrival of the three Magi {the star formation we call Orion's belt} and the morning star (Sirius) in the east. Mithra {or Mithras) had 12 desciples, they feasted with him and helped to spread his good word and everlasting light. During the spring festival of Eoster He feasted one last time, their last supper. then he is exicuted so that his desciples do not suffer. He rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of his father. Every Dec.25 his life cycle begains again.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Don't get too worried about the "respectful and polite" bit. We can take strong language.
We are more likely to get annoyed when people seem to be doing little more than preaching and simply quoting the Bible at us, rather than responding to our questions and explaining as best they can what they believe and why.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Jesus said..."Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6 KJV
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
In other words paisley is saying the bible doesn't want you to actually test your faith, just believe no matter what and don't listen to what us heathens have to say about anything, just listen to the priests, bible thumpers, etc, etc etc, don't bother with actually trying gain a bit of knowledge.
And remember, Paisley is a Pantheist, not a Christian.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Technically, I am a trinitarian panentheist.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
Hi Paul,
I am an Atheist. I am not a science guru or bible scholar. I was a die-hard born again Christian for 5 years. Converted my entire family (5), plus many relatives and dozens of strangers. I thought i loved God more than anything in the world and i would never stray from him. But many things happened along the journey. I couldn’t explain to you all the things i saw and learned that changed the way i think today. It was a process, just like becoming born again was a process. It’s like when you suspect your mate is cheating on you. You see clues, you see things that start making you think. You begin to dig deeper and deeper. Until you realize the truth of the situation.
Forget the lack of answered prayers, bible contradictions, evolution (science), being mistreated by Christians, constant guilt for not saving enough people. My biggest issue was i did not believe God was there. Pretty simple? I used to pray for hours every night. I know many Christians say they do, but i actually did it. I prayed all the time. Until one day i got tired of praying and asked God a question...“Father...i have been talking all these years, can you talk to me now?” You see, i just wanted to hear a word, know he was there for me. Tell me he loves me. Make me feel special, because i believed i was. Other Christians claimed to hear his voice. Why not me? I did everything he wanted. Least he could do was be there for me in my time of need. There was no response. I asked God for a sign, turn the light on, pick up a cup and lift it across the room...anything. That’s all i needed and i would have gone out and saved the world for him. Yet, still today, 9 years later...i wait. Actually i don’t wait, i have moved on. Today I have a family and kids of my own. I am wiser and understand myself better although i am far from perfect.
I have no doubt there is no Christian God. I love my children very much and would do anything for them. If they were sick, i would try to make them well. If they need food, i feed them. If they need me to tell them i love them, i would. If there is a God out there somewhere...he does not care or is unable to. Too much pain in the world for me to see a loving God hiding.
So Paul, i hope you enjoy that initial peace that comes with being born-again. But it won’t last. It will fade in time. Good luck understanding that mess that is called the Holy Bible. Have fun with Christians who are one thing in the light and another in the dark. Example: Lust, most Christian men can’t control their lust. I know because i was the guy they turned to for help at my Church. Well, in the end...you can stay a Christian if you stay in the middle of the pack. Don’t get too serious about God and please don’t ask him to talk to you. You may end up an Atheist.
So if a Chrisitan votes agaisnt Gay marriage, because they interpret the bible to be opposed to it. Does that not qualify as casting one of these hypothetical "pearls" before swine? After all their holy values are being enforced upon potentially non-christian "dogs...
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
Dinosaur fossils. (lol)
Starving children with no real chance.
Killing in the name of (insert a religion's god here, many to choose from).
People in places who had no bible or chance to hear of "the word of god" before they died.
Women are second class citizens? The bible is full of this rhetoric. Clearly written by primitive men. This was one of the major things that led me away from it.
Animal sacrifice. When did you sacrifice your last young lamb?
How many first born son's will you kill to get revenge on one man?
Slavery, common sense and morality demands that it be abolished, not propogated.
Pagan symbolism in christian practices. This one is obvious.
A lonely "god" with nothing better to do than to create an entire universe dedicated to the people's of 1 solitary planet. So those same people can worship him without any real evidence, other than, what has been created by those same people. This tells me man created god.
One more thing, I have heard the term "interpreting the bible the way I want too" by people I know irl. Handy that, you can change the rules to fit modern society, but realize, as we progress, what will be left of the original bible as far as the rules of conduct go? Is it like the constitution, how many amendments will people make on it?
The simplest way to describe religion to me, is that it just makes things so easy. You no longer have to look for a source, a means or a purpose.
Logical thinking and considering the way things work in the world around you is my idea of the easiest way to drop the book of magical ignorance. Science helps as well, but I am no scientist yet I have still managed to shed myself of the religious myth.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Why bother? If you cared about arguments you probably wouldn't have faith in the first place.
There is no god.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
LOL nice and simple, saves me a lot of time
Hi Paul
Thank you for replying to my post. Yep my "conversion" was the result of a crisis, too many drugs at too young an age. Most Christians that I know were either raised in a Christian home or went through some kind of crisis. Though I have heard of conversions that involved neither and you won't see them on Christian TV because there not that exciting. Still having said that, just because we "want" something to be true doesn't mean it's not true, right? But, yes, it does explain why someone would believe something even though it's not true. ( I hope God notices how honest I'm being)
As for converting me to the "dark" side, well your motivation is not as strong as mine. If I fail to convert you then you are eternally lost. If you fail to convert me, no big deal. What difference does it make?
Thanks again for your reply.
Thanks for the reply. Well the "bunches" are made up of individual arguments. If the singular objections fail so does the bunch. Right? Also there is evidence for the existence of the Christian God. It's not simple though, kind of like a long drawn out court case where both "sides" present there case and rebuttals. In the end the jury has to decide.
Hi Jeffrick, thank you for your reply. I studied up on Lord Mithra (the link is below if your interested). Though my reason for being on this site is to test my beliefs to see if they can stand against the opposition, a bonus would be to persuade you to believe also.
but probably not going to happen. Still my faith stands against this one quite easily. Just need to study up on the historical evidence for Mithra. If you do know of any historical, hard evidence, for what you have asserted in your post I will look at it, but it needs to have references to historical documents. Thanks again.
http://www.equip.org/articles/defending-the-new-testament-jesus
Hi Paul,
I think you need to set some standards for the evidence, or allow us to set such standards. Either way, there will eventually come a point in this discussion where scripture will be submitted as recorded history, and this is hotly contested territory. Generally, the OT/NT aren't accepted as factual history by any critical thinker (see the threads on Biblical Errancy), and more likely to be recognized as historical fiction by atheists/skeptics.
With this in mind, what are your criteria for evidence?
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
-- Richard Dawkins
Besides your involvement in Christianity are you involved in any other program as a support group to help your drug addiction problem? How are you handling your problem with drugs today?
My experience with "Born Again" Christians is usually they have some sort of extreme emotional event such as you have. In such cases depending on what else you use as a support group I may not be interested in discussing Christianity or religion with you at all. I personally would rather see you develop more strength on your own before engaging you and testing your faith if you have nothing else to get you through your addiction issues.
As people sometimes are very secretive about their motivations one can never be sure if they too don't have some sort of internal strife or emotional event that causes them to reach out for a crutch to deal with the world. Wanting something to be true as in there must be more than this or something must explain why all this, is hardly a reason to grasp at straws and accept an ideology.
You have no clue whether my motivation is stronger than yours or not. You will not convert me and there will be no recourse in any event. If I choose to attempt to get you to see reality and you don't there is far more for you to lose and it will make an impact on the rest of your life.
After I understand your situation I will consider whether or not to challenge your faith or leave you in your situation using Christianity as your means to overcome your addiction issues.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Furthermore, to respond to your initial request for a "number 1 damaging argument."
You will probably find the most damning arguments to come from science, but it will be difficult to determine which one is the "most damaging." You need to provide the claims which you wish to have challenged. Science doesn't work by setting out to prove something - It attempts to challenge specific postulates by way of counterexample. So, the most damaging argument might not exist as an argument against the whole of religious faith. You'll need to provide examples, such as "what is your evidence against X,Y,Z tenets of Christianity." Outside of philosophy, there isn't (to my knowledge) a blanket argument against belief other than the lack of evidence for belief - But this necessitates further elaboration, since not all evidence is applicable to all assertions made by theists. It would be discounting the numerous different religious faiths (and the power of science) take a blanket statement about lack of evidence as being all-encompassing.
So, what are your claims which you'd like to have tested here? What are the foundations of your beliefs? You've mentioned your background and a "crisis" of sorts in your life as being the turning point in your beliefs, perhaps you'd like us to challenge the aspects of Christianity which were most appealing to you. In this case, what were they and why were they more appealing than, say, common sense/rationality?
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
-- Richard Dawkins
Actually the evidence that is presented by the majority of christians, is the same evidence that I can use to prove any god of any religion or mythology to exist. There is no one bit of evidence that points to the christian version of god. The rebuttals are very simple the bible contradicts itself, is false on many topics regarding the world. Many of the stories that many christians claim occurred, such as noah's ark, the whole exodus, many things that jesus supposedly did, did not occur, if they didn't occur or there is no evidence that it actually happened, how can one be certain that god exists? Even more so it just seems to be on par with the stories of other mythologies, just a way to explain how things came to be.
[Edit] but this isn't the damming evidence you are looking for, per se, the most damming evidence I have to say is there is no evidence that god exists. Even your claim, that's its long and drawn out, doesn't prove that god exists, if you present your evidence, see how well it stands up. I bet that it is the same evidence for any god.
DINOSAUR FOSSILS: Please give a link to a "transitional" fossil. (something between a spider and a monkey would do) STARVING CHILDREN: AAARRGGGHH not that one! Yep is the most difficult obstacle to belief in the Christian God. God is good, God is all powerful yet evil exists. Conclusion- God is either not good or not omnipotent! either way he can't exist. Unless it goes like this. God is good and omnipotent and he allows evil to exist for a reason we can not grasp. Kind of like the time I help cause my 4 year old Son to get a disease on purpose. Maybe. THE LOST SOUL IN THE REMOT ISLAND: A common objection. Everyone has the "light" of creation and conscience. Theologians state that if a soul responds to that, God is able to "reach" them. That is, no one will be able to stand before God on judgement day and accuse him of not being fair. If there is a God I have no way of knowing for sure that he hasn't set up some way of being fair. WOMEN 2nd CLASS: Please, if you have time, give the reference in the Bible that states / infers that women are second class. ANIMAL SACRIFICE: Yep the bible is full of weird stuff. Though it does explain why the sacrifices were done. Also the meat was put to good use. It also doesn't prove God doesn't exist just that he does things that are hard to understand. We slaughter animals every day for food, doesn't mean we are evil or don't exist. Just hungry. KILLING FIRST BORN: ??? SLAVERY: In the list of evils there is a reference to "slave traders"in the Bible. Also the term "slave" doesn't always mean the same thing as the movie "Roots" depicts. Most slavery was self induced. That is, people would sell themselves into slavery. It was a legal contract not unlike a professions sports player "selling" him self to a sports franchise and signing a contract. Most of the references in the Bible concerning slaves was on how they were to be fairly treated, how they could be released from there "contract" etc. Slaves were allowed to own property, make investments and some became rich. They could "buy" a year off if they wanted to. While you can't substitute the word employee for the word slave a slave in the OT was closer to that then the "roots" kind of slave. I don't know about you but monday morning I "have" to go to work. Plus many "slaves" stayed with there owner and lived as a family even after the allotted 6 years maximum. As for slaves taken in war that was an act of mercy. You could either execute them, imprison them, or give them a place to live, food to eat and so on. (releasing them would either be a security threat or abandonment). War is not a "good" thing neither is "slavery" a good thing. The Bible acknowledges that there are many things in the world that are not right but that one day everything will be restored.
thanks for your thoughts.
Haven't time to read your comments right now but don't worry about discrediting Christianity and therby removing my solution to drug addiction. I am totally drug free and have been for 30 years so no worries there.
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
being drug free is one thing but the solution isn't always the christian faith, people have found it from the buddhist faith or following the teachings of buddhism without following the religion, from islam, from judaism, to many other religions and changes in lifestyles. Your statement is no more proof that god exists than those that used buddhism to kick drugs that the state of nirvana actually can be achieved and that there is some form of afterlife/reincarnation. If your here to "test your faith" as you say, but your going to not both with any arguments then your just here under false pretenses or just lying to yourself. You want to test your so called faith, try actually learning the arguments, try actually proving that god exists, that what the bible states about historical events actually occurred, etc, etc, etc etc.
Okay, this is where you will start to draw some serious criticism from me, because you are arguing from ignorance. This is not meant as an insult, just recognizing that you don't understand something for what it actually is, and are arguing from your own misunderstanding instead of accepted fact/observation.
To clarify: You clearly do not understand what evolution is, or what evolutionary theory does and doesn't explain. Yet you are arguing that your own flawed understanding of evolution indicates an absence of evidence where none has ever been expected, and that this absence of evidence (transitional fossil between a monkey and a spider) somehow discredits the fossil record or what it shows us.
There will not be a transitional species between a spider and a monkey. That would be magic, and not evolution. Organisms have descended from common ancestors which have successively diverged to form distinct species. If you trace the lineages of spiders and monkeys back far enough, you will find a common ancestor between the two. That does NOT mean that a spider will evolve into a monkey. Transitional fossils are those which exist along the lines of descent - Such as the successive fossils from the genus Homo, which describe distinct steps along the same evolutionary path. Notice how all lineages progress forward in time, as variations accumulate in populations and selective pressures create divergence.
When looking at an evolutionary tree, you would need to trace backwards in time, and then forward again to link two species. You can't simply draw a line between them at any random point chronologically, and expect to find a transitional fossil for this fabricated link (which is precisely what you are doing by demanding a transitional fossil between spiders and monkeys.) The point where you change from going backward to going forward again is the point where the species diverged (there will likely be many other divergences along the path, too). This point of divergence can be estimated by dating fossils in geological strata, and then calculated more accurately by using molecular clocks to count the variations in homologous proteins or genes which exist in both modern species. For example, this is how we have been able to estimate the point where the homo sapiens' ancestors, and chimpanzees diverged. Here's a really good, fairly accessible explanation of the latest calculations in this field: http://primatology.net/2007/02/24/reassessing-the-time-at-which-human-chimp-lineages-diverged/
Do you see why such a refutation regarding the fossil record holds no water? Please ask for clarification, I had to write this very quickly and I likely didn't explain some things as fully as might be desired.
Regards
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
-- Richard Dawkins
So what is it that you believe as a Christian? Is there a particular denomination to which you lean?
Do you consider all in the Bible to be literal? Or do you see much of it as metaphorical or literature with lessons for those that accept God?
You indicated in one of your replies that there is evidence for the existence of God but it was fairly complex. What evidence do you suggest leads you to this conclusion.
In my studies of religion and history, I see the god of Israel or Judah to be a mythical god related in some respects to other Canaanite gods. All ancient cultures had their gods and stories of creation and Judah/Israel is no exception. Many of the Bible stories have either no basis in reality, as they are 1st person accounts, or they have been discredited by archeology, history of other cultures or can be shown to be written from a story or legend of another with adaption for the god Yahweh.
Before one even discusses Jesus as the messiah, one needs to establish the foundation for the god that supposedly sent him as a savior. As Judaism and Christianity do not agree on even what the messiah was prophesied to do it's upon the Christian to explain how the Jews misinterpreted scripture for hundreds of years. However, first you need to establish that the god of the Jews was something more than another ancient god of myths, legends, and storytelling.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Yeah except if you were sold into slavery as many women were, as for the spoils of war, the bible shows many times that the slaves were women, and they were raped, men were killed off, women kept to be raped or as slaves, seems merciful to me.
It doesn't take magic to make you and addict, and it doesn't take magic to allow you to escape. Reason alone will suffice, I speak from personal experience.
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
You are completely right, I know a few former addicts that kicked the drugs after they met someone that they wanted to be sober for or had children, it's a motivator that is required, for some they want to be drug free and use religion as their excuse. But once your drug free, you have to want to remain drug free, even if that motivator is removed. Saying that X religion helped me become drug free therefore X religion and it's deity are true is not actually true.
To explain with humor; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSm7YPMQOSo The study they refer to was published in 1983.
This video explains Mithra very well but it does throw in a bit too much editorial opinion of the producer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvDOtpsmxbc&feature=related
These next two can explain the astrological formations involved in godwhorship but when they speak of actual religions they are not nessisarally acurate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ-kvw1YXs&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMIWPNDiVrE&feature=related
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Arrive asking for a test of faith and shortly thereafter confess to powerful lifesaving urges. In a later post (and I paraphrase here), you say the evidence for both sides is like a court case, not cut and dried in other words, and to a large extent open to interpretation. This is a piss poor effort from a 'loving' god, if you ask me. There's a resonance in the fact that you as a believer turn up here and offer us only assumptions, personal experiences dished up by your endorphin system, hopes to dodge mortality, a grab-bag of gaps and a great big threat, and you expect us to believe.
The problem you're going to run into here is something that as a church-goer you may not be all that familiar with. It's called personal honesty.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I realize that the Jews weren't the worst offender in respect to slavery, but a god who made all people would know that owning people is wrong. Indefensible position no matter how you try to step around it.
Yahweh in the OT had no issue with war and killing those who weren't the chosen people. The problems the Hebrews would have in Palestine were caused by their failure to kill all of the Canaanites and inhabitants as Yahweh had ordered. That they made peace with many was directly against his wishes.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
All fossils are transitional. This is like looking at the fossil records and seeing fossil M and fossil O and saying where is the transition between them (M) ? (O). Then when ? is found now called N you now have (M) ? (N) ? (O), then its were are those transition fossils ect... This is the simplest way I know to describe the so called problem.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
The fact that you don't even really believe. And if I could challeng your beliefs, I could prove this.
The stories in the holy books are so illogical, unsubstantiated, so counter intuitive to everything we know about our universe, that you can't possible believe in any meaningful way except as wishful thinking and fantasy.
I've been around enough Christians to know that at least 95% don't really believe. You'll see at some point nearly all of them slip up and reveal that they don't really believe. The other 5% suffer from diminished mental capacity or delusions of grandeur (i.e. I'm special to God). Religion is nothing more that a response to fear, social pressure and it is a manifestation of human narcissism.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Not sure if you really want to hear this, but you asked...
The handle of the Big Dipper is three stars (three kings). If you follow their course, they'll lead your eye to the brightest star in the night sky, Arcturus (which led the wise men to Jesus' birthplace). Continuing that path will lead your eye to Spica, the brightest star in the constellation Virgo (the virgin). The sun (son) passes through Virgo around September, and right around the time of the autumn equinox, passes RIGHT by Spica...like within three degrees or something (born of a virgin). This marks the sun's descent in the sky to its lowest point on the horizon. At the winter solstice (Christmas), the sun comes to its lowest point in the sky right above a grouping of stars called the Southern Cross (dies on the cross). It holds that position for three days before ascending again (after three days is resurrected and ascends to heaven). At the spring equinox, the sun begins its journey to the highest point in the sky (Easter = celebration of the resurrection).
If so much of the story--and so much that is fundamental to the suggestion that Jesus was the savior--is clearly fabrication based on astrology (and likely rooted in an agrarian society at the mercy of the seasons), for me, it casts enough doubt on what the book says to make it essentially impossible to believe any of it.
So you believe that God is immanent. transcendent and accessible?
Or do you believe that the immanent, transcendent God is manifest in three forms?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Huh, have to remember that.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Lol.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I have a sneaking suspicion that this poster heard more than he was expecting to hear and abandoned the whole enterprise...
That this argument comes up way often and from clever people. Why do theists fail to see that everything is in a state of transition, that gaps in the record are just gaps in our knowledge and that things evolve from a concestor that is usually extinct? Why do the theists insist that evolution must go sideways across species all of which are currently alive and as perfectly adapted to their particular environmental niches as the process of evolution has thus far been able to make them? They really must be trying not to understand.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I think an attempt to convert anyone to anything is a symptom of hysterical blindness. A need to share what works for you makes the assumption that you must be right, which in turn creates a weakness in your defense. It isn't, I think, the purpose of a true Christian. That would be only to plant a seed. There is no "dark side" both sides are blinded by light. If you are right they are only lost to a God they obviously don't care for. Most people choose to avoid the narrow way. However, if they are wrong and they influence others out of ignorance there is a great deal more for those influenced by them to lose. They lose eternal paradise whereas if you are wrong you would have lost only a brief life in a sinful environment. Even then your chances are pretty slim. Out of what? Two million slaves out of Egypt only two made it to the promised land. Even Moses who led them there didn't make it.
If I had to present an argument against traditional mainstream Xianity I would choose hell because it is so easy to disprove, and so obviously horrible. Not to mention unscriptural. If you believe in hell you better take a second look at what you were taught and believe.
There it is again. I can't prove that ANY GOD exists. I don't understand how anyone can say such a stupid thing. Even to say that "no theists has ever presented any evidence to prove it." necessitates your having to establish an impossible assumption. That is the kind of stupid shit I would expect of theists. LC has read every word of every theist of all time and knows that they have never "proved" any god exists or LC is talking out of his ass again and everyone here agrees?
Shadowdweller. Isn't that an artificial person who posts to stimulate conversation. I haven't heard anything that would put me off except a lack of challenge and abject stupidity.
Wow, you can't even prove your god exists, yet you keep saying your god exist, why should I believe that? What is so wrong with asking for evidence for a positive claim, such as god exists, if god exists, there must be some evidence of it's existence. otherwise it doesn't exist at all. Fuck your stupid at this game aren't ya.
Exactly! Here! Here! I second that.
That words in a book written by uninformed mortal men a few thousand years ago can be selectively mined for greater truths than those laid down in the immutable strata of rocks?
You're entitled to your opinion but to call opposition to your position stupid is...stupid.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Is this a joke, or have you been reading atheist propaganda? Saul persecuted Christians and then later invented Christianity a few generations after the Zoarastrai did as well? Did you expect that to go over?
When in Rome . . . If Caeser's Gallic War was written in the year 52 before Christ but the oldest extant copies were written by a later hand, and from the ninth century after Christ you haven't much of a point, especially when the Bible is a far more reliable source. Anyway, a great deal of what you said about him is irrelevant. The cross, for example, was most likely the dungy idol of Tammuz in the book of Ezekiel, but the Babylonains, Indians, Chinese etc. all used it as did Caeser on his coins and it was later adopted by apostate Christianity. Pater is just Greek and Latin for Father and was applied to Jehovah long before Caeser.
Really poor scholarship. The Bible doesn't say Jesus was born in December, in fact it was obviously not December because when he was born the shepherds were still outdoors with their flock. Bible chronology as well as very reliable astronomical charts indicates that Jesus was most likely born in the first week of October. And as far as that stuff about Mithra, ask any scholar of mythology and folklore and what you are saying isn't true. Neither Mithra nor Christ were born on December 25th, the winter solstice was incorporated into many legends as well as an unscriptural teaching of the Christ.
[Laughs] To call one stupid is stupid. Very funny, AE, I like that. I enjoy a good challenge to my position. I love debate, and I think that so long as I know what I am talking about I am good at it. I want you to read this. It is a discussion I had with a fellow named Rambo, who is, by far, the most knowledgable or at least willing to listen and research of anyone I have ever debated with regarding the Bible and Bible related subjects like in the case of the link I provided, time, chronology, Egyptian, Bible and astronomical. He was atheist and we respected and admired one another's knowledge and ability on a mutual level.
It isn't that I think that you all are stupid or that it is stupid of you to disagree with me, it is your lack of knowledge and misapplication of logic which makes me think that your argument is stupid.
I didn't get through all of it but this point you made that I quote below jagged me as a fairly neat encapsulation of our general disagreement.
"The incredible lifespan of people before the Deluge when sin was new can be explained by a very different Earth afterwards. I know you don't believe in the deluge and the canopy but from the scriptural perspective it is there."
You really rate the bible as a strong source when there's little or no other evidence and accepting that evidence requires leaping over a mental hurdle. I just don't accept people lived to that age - 500 or 600 - ever. And I battle with the garden and with the flood.
Even looking at it from a purely bible perspective it's like 2 great fall stories crammed into the one human history. I don't know why god needed to punish the world again after the cat was out of the bag in the garden of eden. Was he surprised by the sin when he instructed noah to borrow some tools from Halvorsen Brothers?
I don't know. Using the historical method as a marker for the legitimacy of supernatural things doesn't work for me. Sure there are places and names and so forth in the bible that gel and maybe that's half the victory. But there are other things that cannot possibly be unless I just take them at face value and accept them as being real.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck