The End of Science

Presuppositionalist
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The End of Science

Hi,

What will you do if science ends and you still can't prove God didn't create the universe and life?

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Quote:Hi,What will you do if

Quote:

Hi,

What will you do if science ends and you still can't prove God didn't create the universe and life?

 

A is A, therefore Quantum Mechanics is false.

 


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Pineapple, your picture

Pineapple, your picture doesn't work.


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Well science will only end

Well science will only end when all the questions regarding the natural world and universe are answered.....since that isn't going to happen in my life time it doesn't matter. However the christian god as per the bible.....doesn't exist, nor does allah or most gods so far described by holy texts.


 


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How exactly would science

How exactly would science end?


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If we somehow found out

If we somehow found out every thing about the universe which could be observed and checked in some way, ie the stuff of science, and God still didn't appear to have  been detected, that would certainly confirm that there was even less reason to believe in something whose existence has never come close to being clearly demonstrated, let alone proved.

I think we can safely also assume that since we would also not have been able to prove that there was not a porcelain teapot in orbit around a star in the Andromeda galaxy, therefore that must be true too...

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Hi,

What will you do if science ends and you still can't prove God didn't create the universe and life?

Science would end only if we have discovered everything there is to know and observe.  Science is not trying to prove a god didn't create the universe at all, rather it is the study and understanding of all things. If your god was not discovered by the point all things were known, what will you do, become an atheist?

 

 

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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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TO EVERYONE WHO HAS

TO EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED

By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe. This could happen if (a) we discover everything OR (b) we hit some sort of Godel's-Theorem-style wall which prohibits us from figuring anything else out. If "b" happened, and we hit a wall such that you could not disprove the idea that God created the universe or life, what would you do?

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Go with the fact

That there is no evidence for god period, as such there is  no requirement to believe in him, again, the god of the bible doesn't exist. Now einsteins god, I can't disprove at all.


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Quote:By "the end of

Quote:
By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe.

Is it not you who has spoken of the Problem of Induction?  And yet you now claim that there will come a time when science will be certain that they know everything there is to know?

How very droll.

 {fixed link -aiia}

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Presuppositionalist wrote:TO

Presuppositionalist wrote:

TO EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED

By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe. This could happen if (a) we discover everything OR (b) we hit some sort of Godel's-Theorem-style wall which prohibits us from figuring anything else out. If "b" happened, and we hit a wall such that you could not disprove the idea that God created the universe or life, what would you do?

There are and always will be an INFINITE number of ideas which we cannot prove do not exist, it would be batshit insane to assume that anything that cannot be disproved MUST be true.

What counts is what evidence is there to show something DOES exist, AND that it is a better explanation, ie fits the evidence and is more consistent with all the other stuff that we have found seems to be true.

So where is your case FOR God?

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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 We'll have to find more

 We'll have to find more science so we can continue to put off accepting the fundamental truths of the universe known to people who thought the sky was full of water and secured with a beaten metal dome.


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Presuppositionalist wrote:If

Presuppositionalist wrote:

If "b" happened, and we hit a wall such that you could not disprove the idea that God created the universe or life, what would you do?

Since I can't disprove it now, what would change? I also can't disprove the idea that invisible space monkeys created the universe or life. It doesn't alter my behaviour.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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magilum wrote: We'll have

magilum wrote:

 We'll have to find more science so we can continue to put off accepting the fundamental truths of the universe known to people who thought the sky was full of water and secured with a beaten metal dome.


What, the one made out of transparent aluminum? I thought everyone knew that.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Presuppositionalist wrote:If

Presuppositionalist wrote:

If "b" happened, and we hit a wall such that you could not disprove the idea that God created the universe or life, what would you do?

Have a beer and continue to insist you prove your god.


 

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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Presuppositionalist wrote:TO

Presuppositionalist wrote:

TO EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED

By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe. This could happen if (a) we discover everything OR (b) we hit some sort of Godel's-Theorem-style wall which prohibits us from figuring anything else out. If "b" happened, and we hit a wall such that you could not disprove the idea that God created the universe or life, what would you do?

No one has to disprove that your god thing created the universe, nor does anyone have to disprove that there is such a thing.

Try to get it in your brain that it is you who has to prove that your god thing even exists and also prove it created the universe and until then, your god thing is a figment of your imagination.

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Hi,

What will you do if science ends and you still can't prove God didn't create the universe and life?

Well, here's the thing: I'm not the one trying to add an element to the data. You are. Right now, there is no data that demonstrates evidence for God. As long as that remains true, there will still be no reason to believe in God. So why should I alter my actions or beliefs in anyway?

After all, you can't, as we sit here, prove that I didn't create the universe and life. Plan on worshiping me? Sending 10% of your income to me?

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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BMcD

BMcD wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Hi,

What will you do if science ends and you still can't prove God didn't create the universe and life?

Well, here's the thing: I'm not the one trying to add an element to the data. You are. Right now, there is no data that demonstrates evidence for God. As long as that remains true, there will still be no reason to believe in God. So why should I alter my actions or beliefs in anyway?

After all, you can't, as we sit here, prove that I didn't create the universe and life. Plan on worshiping me? Sending 10% of your income to me?

It seems like science "concluding" (pretending that there will ever be less we don't know about the universe than do) and not coming up with a deity would be pretty bad for the deity.

Now how long do we go before we mention shifting the burden of proof? Oops.


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If science "ends"? What if

If science "ends"? What if math ends? What if engineering ends? What if logic ends? What then? I think we'd all be FUCKED. Just my two cents. Whether god existed or not would be the last thing on my mind. I'd be too busy trying not to explode into billions of tiny hula hoop dancers from Hawaii.

Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


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magilum wrote:BMcD

magilum wrote:

BMcD wrote:

Well, here's the thing: I'm not the one trying to add an element to the data. You are. Right now, there is no data that demonstrates evidence for God. As long as that remains true, there will still be no reason to believe in God. So why should I alter my actions or beliefs in anyway?

After all, you can't, as we sit here, prove that I didn't create the universe and life. Plan on worshiping me? Sending 10% of your income to me?

It seems like science "concluding" (pretending that there will ever be less we don't know about the universe than do) and not coming up with a deity would be pretty bad for the deity.

Now how long do we go before we mention shifting the burden of proof? Oops.

Hey now, I'm just playing by the theist's rules, Mag. Let's see him prove that I'm not the Creator. Eye-wink

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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I want to counter-propose

I want to counter-propose the end of religion. Once the world's faiths shoot their collective wads, and the hapless and unrewarded credulity of the masses has been exhausted, what trifling and perfectly meaningless and rhetorical positions will continue to divide us?

 


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Hi P, it's me god. I am what

Hi P, it's me god. I am what I am, just as you, just as the dirt, as all is one. I have no problem with this word spelled g-o-d. I have major fucking problems with idol worship separatism, as is religion of dogma. Religion is retarded, dangerous, embarrassing, etc etc etc >>> 

Please type for me your prayer to your god, so that I might understand your idol of worship. Help me, save me .... "love the enemy" ....

    


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magilum wrote:I want to

magilum wrote:

I want to counter-propose the end of religion. Once the world's faiths shoot their collective wads, and the hapless and unrewarded credulity of the masses has been exhausted, what trifling and perfectly meaningless and rhetorical positions will continue to divide us?

Boxers or briefs?

Domino's or Pizza Hut?

Coke or Pepsi?

Mets or Yankees?

Giants or Jets?

Islanders or Rangers?

Knicks or Nets?

(Can you tell I'm a New Yorker? Oh! Right!)

North or South?

East or West?

Post-Apocalyptic Wasteland Nomad or Post-Economic-Collapse Agrarianism?

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Hey Presup,I'm willing to

Hey Presup,

I'm willing to live with "I don't know all the answers but I'm going to keep looking". Why are you settling for "God did it! Yay! I don't have to think anymore!"?

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Hi,

What will you do if science ends and you still can't prove God didn't create the universe and life?

Reminds me of the classic Asimov short story "The Last Question":

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

 

 

WWSD - What Would Scooby Doo?


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Less Filling - Tastes

Less Filling - Tastes Great?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit wrote:Less

Hambydammit wrote:

Less Filling - Tastes Great?

 

Hehe, no that's the ETERNAL question!  Have you read the Asimov story Hamby?  If not, you really should.  It's one of the all time classics in my opinion.

WWSD - What Would Scooby Doo?


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JoeyJoJoJr wrote:Reminds me

JoeyJoJoJr wrote:

Reminds me of the classic Asimov short story "The Last Question":

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

 

I had forgotten about this story of Asimov's, good point.

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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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JoeyJoJoJr wrote:Hambydammit

JoeyJoJoJr wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

Less Filling - Tastes Great?

 

Hehe, no that's the ETERNAL question!  Have you read the Asimov story Hamby?  If not, you really should.  It's one of the all time classics in my opinion.

I bet it's nowhere near as good as anything Stephen King wrote.

Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


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I did invite god off its'

I did invite god off its' high horse perch to come down and chat about how it created everything, but it didn't show up.... go figure. So I guess as long as science is around we can use it to ponder why there is something rather than nothing. Religion will keep offering its' adherents some sort of comfort, science will go about trying to piece together what really happened and everybody will be just peachy.

I really wish god would show itself, then there would be no need for such a silly question. Besides if you understood science can't answer questions dealing with the super-natural you wouldn't ask just either. Might want to pick up a real science book at some point and stop buying into the propaganda of the religious institutions about what science can and cannot answer.   

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Jello wrote:JoeyJoJoJr

Jello wrote:

JoeyJoJoJr wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

Less Filling - Tastes Great?

 

Hehe, no that's the ETERNAL question!  Have you read the Asimov story Hamby?  If not, you really should.  It's one of the all time classics in my opinion.

I bet it's nowhere near as good as anything Stephen King wrote.

Touche Jello 

WWSD - What Would Scooby Doo?


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Asimov's The last question

Asimov's The last question is a great short story based on what would happen if we (or our creations) discovered a way to reverse entropy. It's got a great twist in the tale and I think remains one of the best thought experiments he produced.

 

However, back to the original question:

If we discovered everything knowable about science (or as much as is possible) and still found no evidence for a god - then we have all the evidence we need that there is no god - or at least not one that has any effect on our material universe. We could safely say that a god has never had an impact on our world - isn't that a more powerful argument than for the existance of a god?

Say we got to that stage - would you still pray to him to keep your family safe? Would you still believe he'd do anything to help you?

Ian

 


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Presuppositionalist wrote:TO

Presuppositionalist wrote:

TO EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED

By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe. This could happen if (a) we discover everything OR (b) we hit some sort of Godel's-Theorem-style wall which prohibits us from figuring anything else out. If "b" happened, and we hit a wall such that you could not disprove the idea that God created the universe or life, what would you do?

 

Why do you waste your time thinking of stupid questions?

 

Dur! What if God made its presence know to everyone and said: "I just came into existence this moment, had nothing to do with making anything, and certainly had nothing to do with Jesus and I am going to make myself not exist and will never come back. Right. Now."(*poof*) ?

 

You know what?  Presup would still believe in the Jesus God.  As would most idiots.

 

Gee!  Lets spend hours of our finite life pondering these things!

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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Presuppositionalist wrote:TO

Presuppositionalist wrote:

TO EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED

By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe. This could happen if (a) we discover everything OR (b) we hit some sort of Godel's-Theorem-style wall which prohibits us from figuring anything else out. If "b" happened, and we hit a wall such that you could not disprove the idea that God created the universe or life, what would you do?

 

Godel's theorem - ur doin' it rong

imaginary circumstances beget imaginary conclusions

 

p.s.  still calling poe on this guy

-----------------------------
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Wikinite

Wikinite wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

TO EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED

By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe. This could happen if (a) we discover everything OR (b) we hit some sort of Godel's-Theorem-style wall which prohibits us from figuring anything else out. If "b" happened, and we hit a wall such that you could not disprove the idea that God created the universe or life, what would you do?

 

Godel's theorem - ur doin' it rong

imaginary circumstances beget imaginary conclusions

 

p.s.  still calling poe on this guy

 

I'm starting to believe all the theists that come to these sites fall under Poe's Law!  Well, that was until I went to a Xian site.  My brain almost exploded.

Example:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=1125

 

Can you call Poe's Law on 80% of the population? Laughing out loud

 

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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daedalus wrote:I'm starting

daedalus wrote:

I'm starting to believe all the theists that come to these sites fall under Poe's Law!  Well, that was until I went to a Xian site.  My brain almost exploded.

Example:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=1125

 

Can you call Poe's Law on 80% of the population? Laughing out loud

 

I followed that link and read a bit... oh holy crap!

If that kind of blind idiocy doesn't freak you out, you're made of sterner stuff than I am. Holy crap!

 


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marcusfish wrote:daedalus

marcusfish wrote:

daedalus wrote:

I'm starting to believe all the theists that come to these sites fall under Poe's Law!  Well, that was until I went to a Xian site.  My brain almost exploded.

Example:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=1125

 

Can you call Poe's Law on 80% of the population? Laughing out loud

 

I followed that link and read a bit... oh holy crap!

If that kind of blind idiocy doesn't freak you out, you're made of sterner stuff than I am. Holy crap!

 

 

hahaha!  I know. It was mind-blowing.  Especially when you see the germ of thought from some of them saying "well, I heard that maybe the world could be more than 6000 y.o. and that it would change the Bible (remember the guy asking about the gap theory?), but then a flood of ignorance flows in and drowns him out by giving him links to the most idiotic sites ever created.

 

I could only take  a few pages. I feel I am dumber for it now. Sad

 

Xians: these are the people who make up a bulk of your population. These are the people who vote for Bush, listen to the 700 Club and claim secularism is destroying America...

These are the people who perpetuate your religion by teaching this crap to children and spreading it in churches, synagogues, temples and whatevers. These are the people who keep your religion viable and you follow THEIR lead.  You follow the nuts.

 

ARRRRGGHHHH!!!!

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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Quote:Hehe, no that's the

Quote:
Hehe, no that's the ETERNAL question!  Have you read the Asimov story Hamby?  If not, you really should.  It's one of the all time classics in my opinion.

I read this a long time ago.  I'm pretty sure I've read all of Asimov's published short stories at one time or another.  I spent most of a year in high school reading nothing but Asimov.  I agree that this is a classic story, and even if it's not really a likely reality, it's a neat way of explaining to someone how even the most seemingly incomprehensible thing, if it exists, would have a natural, scientific answer.  Thanks for the link.  I enjoyed reading it again.

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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:By

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe.

Is it not you who has spoken of the Problem of Induction?  And yet you now claim that there will come a time when science will be certain that they know everything there is to know?

How very droll.

 

The OP contains an "if", I believe.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe.

Is it not you who has spoken of the Problem of Induction?  And yet you now claim that there will come a time when science will be certain that they know everything there is to know?

How very droll.

The OP contains an "if", I believe.

So you've gone from entertaining a premise nobody else will dignify, to one even you can't. The next step is for you to vanish in a puff of swamp gas.


jcgadfly
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It seems Presup wants sciece

It seems Presup wants sciece and reason to end because they threaten his omni-God.

Keep wasting your energy, Presup.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


pauljohntheskeptic
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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe.

Is it not you who has spoken of the Problem of Induction?  And yet you now claim that there will come a time when science will be certain that they know everything there is to know?

How very droll.

 

The OP contains an "if", I believe.

Presup, you still here beating yourself raw with your own arguments. As I asked you early in this thread, what will you do IF science ends and all is known and still there is no proof of your god? Your If /then statement comes back and explodes in your face. If all is known you have no more basis for hope or faith and the harsh light of reality must expose your irrational claim of an invisible sky daddy. As to your unlikely condition of no more being discovered by science you have no basis to make such a statement. Every single day new things are discovered in science though some may be small and fairly insignificant the body of knowledge continues to increase. Even these small discoveries will sum into a large body over the years. Since the Universe is so vast and infinite it will require an infinite time to learn all. There will be brick walls that cause research to take other paths, but such is the way it always has been.

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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"Science can destroy

"Science can destroy religion by ignoring it as well as by disproving its tenets. No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the non-existence of Zeus or Thor, but they have few followers now." Arthur C Clarke

The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance...logic can be happily tossed out the window. - Stephen King

"Science offers us an explanation of how complexity (the difficult) arose out of simplicity (the easy). The hypothesis of God offers no worthwhile explanation for anything, for it simply postulates what we are trying to explain. It postulates the difficult to explain, and leaves it at that." - Dawkins

Science studies gawed, Philosophy summarizes, Religion spins. ~ me

The gods of religions are wimps .... ~ me


The "answer" is always "because god".  That is not an answer.  Religion may ATTEMPT to answer why, but it never has.  Isn't it time to accept the facts that religion is just story-time for the gullible?  ~ daedalus of RRS

   ETC etc


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Presuppositionalist wrote:TO

Presuppositionalist wrote:

TO EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED

By "the end of science", I meant the point at which nothing more can be discovered about the universe. This could happen if (a) we discover everything OR (b) we hit some sort of Godel's-Theorem-style wall which prohibits us from figuring anything else out. If "b" happened, and we hit a wall such that you could not disprove the idea that God created the universe or life, what would you do?

Seeing as how I already have enough to discount the mythologies of every religion on the planet, I'd do nothing differently.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.