Belated introduction - and a question

Nordmann
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Belated introduction - and a question

Hi - I've been lurking around this site now for a few months and have been careful not to jump to any quick conclusions about it, though on the whole it impresses me that its core members and quite a few others show remarkable patience and forbearance in their determination to counter superstition with fact. I know from years of doing something similar as a solo effort myself that it does get tedious finding oneself having to repeat rather basic and obviously factual counter-arguments to grandiose and unfounded claims. Worse, the claimants one is arguing against often have so much of their identity wrapped up in their indefensible ideology that they defend it all the more, adding tremendously to the tedium and adding also real risk of distraction into personal offence and other umbrages taken by people who (wrongly) feel that they are under personal attack just because one of their delusions is being shown up.

 

So congratulations all round to those of you who stay interested and keep it interesting at the same time, and who manage to avoid the trap of ad hominem enough to get the rationalist viewpoint across more or less intact every time.

 

My own aversion to religion has less to do with how preposterous the notions might be that it is based on, or even that humanity still shows a worrying tendency to favour "ready made" answers with origins in ignorance to a more rational understanding of itself. It has more to do with the built-in control mechanisms that any religion, once it gains currency, seeks to exert over the rest of us. Or better put, how religion provides a perfect vehicle for people to behave in just that way. I have made the accusation against rabid preacher and superficially benign buddhist monk alike, and have yet to hear anything from any of these propagandists that dissuades me from my view. They are as convinced that they are right as they are that they have the right on that basis to feel superior to anyone else who does not agree with them. This is the crucial factor underpinning control freakery and I, from an early age, refuse to be controlled by freaks in any sense, be they deluded religious fools, foolish bosses at work, foolish politicians etc.

 

For that reason my work career has tended to push in the "consultant" direction - happy to lend a hand but loath to be pay-rolled, and for a few years now IT has been a good vehicle to pursue such a career path. It has also meant a lot of travelling and being based in various parts of the world, a real boon to me also as it has allowed me to pursue my real interests, archaeology and what might be loosely termed amateur anthropology to a much greater degree, and with much more fulfilling reward, than had I stayed put.

 

Which is bringing me round to my question - but first an observation. In the US I was struck by the huge percentage of the population which never goes anywhere, even though job mobility within the country often moves people right across the continent (several times), as might pursuing one's education. But what I found extremely lacking was any kind of motivation to travel of one's own volition evident among the vast majority of people, to an extent that a very narrow, parochial viewpoint seemed to be the norm - and was pronounced enough to reveal itself even amongst those few people who did actually collect a passport and move out of the country on occasion. Worse, no one seemed to be aware that they had it. They confused second-hand input relayed via (an incredibly bad) media with experiential knowledge of life outside that life defined by the narrow parameters placed on them geo-politically, to the extent that they confused wilful rejection of one parameter (such as embracing an American version of an Eastern religion) with actually getting out from within those parameters at all. It was easy in the states to be labelled eccentric or "off the wall" - all too easy, I found.

 

So my question (actually three questions) - to all who come to this site. Could the American slide into fundamentalism (and it extends beyond a purely religious interpretation at this stage) be simply the logical outcome of having a huge population effectively thinking parochially? Could the worst of its manifestations socially be diffused through the simple expediency of "getting out more"? Has the internet, which was presented as a panacea to just that collection of ills, actually simply accelerated the process by creating a community of people who communicate facelessly from within their nests and receive a diet of even more second-hand experiences instead of less?

 

It is a question that many non-US people discuss quite a lot when that country comes up as a topic, but not one high on the agenda where it matters most - at least to me it seemed that way.

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


I AM GOD AS YOU
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bump - Stop isolation, Hello

bump -

Stop isolation, Hello World.  Wanting to call the other side, who is denying us? Yeah this is a major problem. (((( more later, thanks Norm


Sleestack
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I think part of the problem

I think part of the problem is that Americans do not take much time off from work and also employers in the United States do not offer much paid time off (and there is typically no option to take unpaid time off except for Leaves of Absence which usually have to be at least a month) compared to other countries, especially Europe. A new employee at a company (a lot of times no matter how many years of experience, except for upper management) will have to wait at least a year before they get 5 paid vacation days. If you are lucky, you will start with a company that gives its employees 10 paid vacation and from my experiences, it will be at least another 5 years before you get an additional 5 paid vacation days. So, not having the time off to travel outside the United States could be a partial factor. Since we do not have as many days to travel, we tend to stay closer to our homes.

Another possible reason, up until the last couple of years, travelling by car was very cheap to do. So, with the limited number of vacation days, it was cheaper and easier to travel by car and go somewhere within a days driving distance to visit. This is probably where a lot of 'camps' came into play. These camps (not all of them) would have religious themes and many times there would be people from your own church there. Even though you are not home, you still haven't left the 'neighborhood'. Then, after spending 5 days at Jesus Retreat, you just hop back in your car and go home.

I personally, love to travel. The only continents I have not visited are Australia, South America and Antarctica. Many people I know say they love to travel, but, that's to Disneyland. I think a lot of Americans just do not feel compelled to go outside the United States let alone the same state they live in, for many reasons. I think this can create (though I have no proof) a parochial way of life. For instance, my dad lives in Rhode Island, the smallest state in the United States and lives in a town of about 20,000. Many of those towns residents have NEVER been outside of Rhode Island. The state is only 37 miles wide and 48 miles tall!!! Most speed limits are 65 miles an hour, so it would only take a little over a half an hour to leave the state and they don't.

I think the internet has probably created a thinking of, "Yup, I knew them crazy Europeans were crazy" with only a click of the mouse. Further cementing their narrow views. Which I think then trickles over to when they go to church and tells Sally Savior and the rest of the congregation, what he saw on the internet and what them 'forners are doing and that we need to keep it away from their community and children.

In a nut shell, I think there are many factors that could contribute to the 'why', but, like the United States, they are very diverse. Perhaps some of the examples I mentioned above with the combination of current events and political perceptions, would give non-US people a feeling that America could slide into fundamentalism. That's just my guess though through my own eyes and experiences.

 


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Nordmann wrote:Quote:Could

Nordmann wrote:

Quote:
Could the American slide into fundamentalism (and it extends beyond a purely religious interpretation at this stage) be simply the logical outcome of having a huge population effectively thinking parochially?

Of course it could. The long-term objective to any fear based ideology is to stifle knowledge and promote conformity.  This seems to work just as well collectively as it does individually.  

Quote:
Could the worst of its manifestations socially be diffused through the simple expediency of "getting out more"?

I think the end result to "getting out more" is really, education.  Could the worst of our manifestations be diffused through education ?  Of course they could.

Quote:
Has the internet, which was presented as a panacea to just that collection of ills, actually simply accelerated the process by creating a community of people who communicate facelessly from within their nests and receive a diet of even more second-hand experiences instead of less?

I bought my parents a computer in hopes that it would supplement their education and that they would be exposed to different points of view.

They use it to communicate w/ the religious programming/community they were already exposed to (brainwashed by) on TV.  Sigh !!

I believe our government is afraid of the power of the internet.  I believe the internet can be a tool for further education if we can keep it from being censored. 

 

I think every culture is susceptible to one or more tools of manipulation.  In the U.S., I think we are manipulated by fear more than most.  The largely religious portion of the population makes control by fear much easier to accomplish.

I think it's fear that keeps Americans from travelling as much as their European counterparts.  If there is a fix to this or any other fear, it nearly always comes down to education.

"There's nothing I'm afraid of..like scared people". 

Robert Frost

 

 

 

  

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


Jello
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I would like to know what

I would like to know what the opinions of people who's area of expertise is in the realm that we're discussing. Just like opinions on evolution from biologists are more valuable than the opinions of Jimmy numbnuts down the street. Even if Jimmy is a smart fella.

I'm not sure whether in this case it would be sociologists or Historians or whatever, but they would know what time it is.

Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


Nordmann
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I'm interested in everyone's

I'm interested in everyone's viewpoint on this, even yours. This is not a forum restricted to experts in any field, which is why I asked the question here.

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy