PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
Of course, morals are not objective, and the "greater good" or how to achieve it cannot always be agreed apon.
The Greeks, (the people of a deeply religious group of city states) for example, actually did at one time have a practice of discarding deformed, disabled, or otherwise handicapped people. They had to consider what best suited their society. Slavery is outlawed in many places now, but just a few centuries ago, it was normal in my own country.
We're a social species, and our societies are evolving. What need for a god do we have in explaining current morality?
"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)
If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?
I think you're setting unusually high expectations for an internet forum, especially one focused on debating such a socially sensitive issue. Can you really expect emotions not to run high here?
Then I'll give you a response that isn't hostile and childish. I've seen plenty of well-thought out posts that were neither hostile nor childish. If you want to develop a more reliable statistic than what you've presented, I suggest you keep a running tally of hostile/non-hostile posts on a piece of paper. This eliminates problems such as confirmation bias and forgetfulness. Then you can give us numbers instead of "majority" or "possibly every"
You say you've doubted God. When/if that doubt gets strong enough you'll want to join our disbelief. Also, our disbelief is not supposed, it is real. By "this" I assume you refer to your previous assertion that all of us are childish, hostile posters. What will become of you if/when you de-convert from Christianity will be entirely up to you.
What motivates you? My desire for happiness, both in myself and in others
How will disbelieving improve life (you seem already dead)? How do I seem dead? If I were dead could I be typing this? Anyway, I have never believed in God, so I don't know how different my life would be if I did. It's not something I chose, it's just that upon much reflection I saw the idea of God as too ridiculous to accept.
Do you live for this world (your earthly life)? Seeing as this is the only life I can be sure of, I'd be silly not to.
Do you live for yourself? For pleasure? To escape suffering? Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)? Do you work for the common good? I live for happiness, both in myself and in others. I guess this means that I do live for myself, and for pleasure in a sense, and certainly to escape suffering. I also seem to have compassion, I'm always outraged at moral atrocities, even when they don't directly effect me. I work for the common good as best I can.
What reason have you to? To what? Live like I do? I live for happiness, both in myself and in others, because happiness is the only thing I have found to be intrinsically good. Basically, I want people to have good, happy lives all around. I guess this is due to the emotional wiring of my brain. Why do I work for the common good? There's of course the emotional wiring, which is a result of my being a social animal. There's also game theory, and the idea of the Nash Equilibrium.
Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination? False dichotomy here. You seem to be implying that chemical reactions aren't real. Even if love is a chemical reaction (it is, at least in part), that wouldn't make it any less real. Love is definitely not a figment of our imagination, though we can imagine it when, say, reading a book.
Love is difficult to define mainly because it has so many definitions. There are many types of love. I define a few here, but this probably isn't exhaustive
Lust: A chemical reaction that helps humans reproduce. Causes strong sexual desires
Common Love: Desire to see one's fellow human happy, regardless of one's own relationship with said human. This is why people donate to the poor, help random strangers while asking for nothing in return. It promotes the Nash Equilibrium state
Tribal Love: Result of emotional bonds with people, usually those you interact with regularly. This includes friends and family. Causes humans to help each other significantly, which allows higher survival rates and more happiness. It promotes teamwork that can help solve otherwise insurmountable obstacles.
I did not "choose" to disbelieve. There was never a choice for me. Upon contemplation, the idea of God was self-contradictory and ultimately meaningless. You also have never experienced God, because you cannot experience something that doesn't exist. You may have imagined an experience with God. You may have had a lucid dreaming experience, or heard a voice, or interpreted patterns, but this is merely your brain trying to fit its input into a conceptual framework. Sometimes, even often times, brains get things wrong. This is why the scientific method is so important.
So WHY do you believe in God? If you can refute the existence using logic, and you recognize the teachings as paradoxical, why go with it?
Three key differences here.
First, you are able to understand why what your parents did was right once you get old enough and learn enough. Yet God remains forever incomprehensible.
Second. While we all may sometimes act childish, we are not children. We are adults now, and we will make our own decisions because we have developed enough critical thinking skills to make them. If anyone wants me to follow their rules, then they can explain why those rules are there, and how they will help me. If they can't, then I'll figure out my own rules.
Third, according to Christian doctrine God is supposedly omnipotent, which means that he could have built us perfect, could have made us intelligent enough to understand, and moral enough to not act childishly. Thus if we do wrong, he only has himself to blame.
Woah now, what level of consciousness are we talking about here? If the tree is conscious, then the farmer should explain why he is pruning the tree. Give it enough consciousness and the tree will understand the farmer's explanation. God makes no attempt at such an explanation.
First, life is not meaningless without the god belief. My life is meaningful because of how it affects the lives of others around me, and the lives of those who have yet to be born. It is not all about the here and now. I fully expect to be alive tomorrow, so I will make plans today that will improve my life tomorrow. I have Common Love (see above), and so I will make plans today that will improve the lives of the children around me. It is quite complicated, but then so is life. The ten commandments are oversimplified, they are inssuficient for the complicated lives that we live.
"Whosoever looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already commited adultery..." This could lead me into a huge segway about the morality of punishing thoughts. People can't control their sex drive to such an extent without seriously damaging it (see my Lust definition above). Punishing people for something beyond their control is not only immoral, it's plain counterproductive.
I've never used the term Bondage, and am unfamiliar with its use in this context. You make the false assumption that being an atheist inherently leads to a selfish mindset. As I've said before, I live for happiness in both myself and others. I too would gladly go to hell to prevent such a fate for others (should hell exist, mind you), especially if I could save multiple "souls" with the sacrifice (2 for 1 deal, eh). It's not shoking, it's actually quite natural. It's called empathy, and most humans have it regardless of their religious beliefs.
You enjoy suffering? It is a gift? Would you like me to make you suffer? That seems to be the logical conclusion of your first sentence there. Be careful what you wish for...
Unfortunately I have not yet been able to help the world very much. The main reason is that I plan to help the world through technological and intellectual advancement, mainly in the fields of physics and mathematics. That sort of education takes time. But I try to help people when I can. My most recent endeaver is the asking of daily philosophical questions to my fellow students. I try to open people's minds and get them to think critically about the world around them.
Had to interrupt here. I am an American that firmly believes in the handshake and the equality of all. I kneel before no one, man or deity. If I were to meet a god, I would shake his/her hand.
God supposedly went through a lot of unnecessary pain (remember, he's omnipotent. He could have just waved his hand if he wanted to) so that I may ask forgiveness from him (or was it his son?) for violating his unexplained rules. Why not just forgive me? Why not explain his rules?
If God loves me so much, why did he lower me to being born a babe in this hostile world, and allowing me to be continually mistreated, disbelieved, and oppressed (yes, I've faced anti-atheists oppression, even in my own home)? Would you do that to someone? People live worse lives than Jesus every day. If God loves them so much, why does he put them through it?
Again, he's just jumping through unnecessary hoops. And making us do the same. Why not just snap, poof, make us divine? Why not just snap, poof, and appear right in front of me? What is with all these unnecessary shenanigans? An all-powerful and all-loving deity ought to come up with a more efficient means of saving souls.
Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html
I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.
You show up to this website, read a couple posts, and then make a generalized judgement on everyone here. You obviously are attempting to start an argument that you believe will somehow magically validate your own beliefs, most likely because you yourself are unsure about them. Let me make this short and simple, we are not interested. Move along troll.
My younger sister is a born-again Christian, and I feel very sorry for her. She is not a crackpot, but she has received some very old-fashioned ideas about women's rights, their role in marriage, divorce, and science. Also, you say that with Christ there is no suffering, yet you previously said that suffering is a gift, something to be enjoyed. Why is Christ taking this gift from us?
So what's the point of your post then? Why bother trying to impose your morality on us? Why try convincing us that your belief is good if you won't succeed?
We target Christians here because a.) Christianity is too darned common, and b.) Christianity is what most of us are most familiar with.
And again, if we fail to see God's standards then it's God's own fault, not ours. He is omnipotent after all.
Um... real control is abandoning your will? You have an unusual definition of control there.
You seem to be saying "stop reasoning, stop using logic. Stop thinking and just believe." This is my biggest problem with religion. You are the one who is damaging your mind by inhibiting your thoughts.
Also, your "holier than thou" stance is getting annoying fast. Please stop assuming we're all such terrible people. Just because God got you out of drugs and hatred doesn't mean its the only way, nor does it mean that it works for everyone.
I do know people who believe and live these things, and it is very unconvincing. I am also very happy with my life right now, and have no need for religion to obtain happiness.
Also, I hope you realize how self-contradictory your argument has become. You repeatedly criticize us for seaking selfish pleasures, yet then tell us that god will make us happy.
And lastly, if this path be so narrow, then an all-powerful deity ought to come up with a method of saving souls that has a higher success rate.
Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html
I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.
Why can't I hate Christians while offering good, logical, and unemotional dialogue? Christians certainly hate me.
Lol @ hostile...No offense to the admins here, but the "MAJORITY" of posts from Atheists here have been fairly boring and wordy. Saying we're childish and hostile is an absurd exaggeration. How about you throw in us being baby-killers for shock value. Helps in making you sound more like a poor, innocent wittle victim :*(
It's not a movement, genius. It's simply not believing in something. Don't criticize us, criticize your creator for being so imaginary.
Again, disbelieving isn't a choice. It's called facing reality. If there's no reason to believe, the end result is...not believing. Try applying those critical thinking skills, Socrates. As much as it might bother you, I'm an extremely happy, positive person. Have a perfect life - without Jesus, even!
Not a choice, unless I'm a hypocrite.
Wow, you just checkmated yourself. I think I'll skip the rest of whatever argument you're trying to make. GG
"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4
Sorry, I totally fucked away the quote funtion, the third paragraph is mine, if you couldn't tell.
"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4
Apologies if this has already been done but this thread is full of tldr.
Do not!!!11!!one!!1
=
Does this stand for good game?
and if it does, what game do you play where you use that?
''Black Holes result from God dividing the universe by zero.''
Starcraft. Waiting on 2 !
To Reply to the OP:
I am a mature, well adjusted, happy person with no particularly strong childhood or adult trauma. I love my parents, they love me. My only sibling is great. My family is stable, and very, very Christian. I am married to a great woman, and have a wonderful, gorgeous daughter. I have an interesting job, and I get up for work every day. I don't do drugs or drink excessively. I have never fought, murdered or violated another human being and I am loyal to my wife. I live the life I do in the way I do because I think it is beneficial to my happiness, not because I fear a magical being, or strive for a mystical reward.
I understand your faith. I was brought up in a religious family, and spent the first 18 years of my life directly studying the Bible and Christianity every single day. Your idea of a fatherly deity who cares for your personal well-being is absurd in the face of evidence. Trying to humanize your god, and make him compatible with your modern sense or morality requires heavy duty cherry-picking.
I have zero reason to hate your imaginary friend, and I do not. However, I believe that your fundamental belief that humanity is governed by an illusion is harmful to human progress, and I can show evidence of this fact. Humans are capable of being productive and happy without the concept of deity, and this can also be demonstrated by many cultures and societies.
You believe in magic. In mysticism. In ancient prophecy. In Demons. In Angels. I do not, because they have not been shown to exist outside of the religious mind. You are an ancient pagan trying to cloak yourself in a layer of reason, and you are not analyzing your own belief system with the same logic that you would analyze the rest of the real world. You make excuses for god because you *feel* something.
Your presumptions of my character and civility are insulting and demeaning, and they show a distinct lack of intellectual honesty on your part.
Good day.
(Edit: Aw man, I thought the discussion was still active. Too bad.)
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Nice post, mellestad.
Oh, and I haven't personally welcomed you to these forums, yet.
Welcome!!
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Thanks! I look forward to many interesting discussion.s
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Greetings and salutations! Might I humbly suggest that, if the topics posted on the boards are a bit too low-brow for you, that you instead read some of the articles written on the site instead? I would even be kind enough to offer you some suggestions as to where you might seek out some loftier, more intellectual stimulation:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/what_are_epistemic_rights_a_basic_primer_in_critical_thinking
http://www.rationalresponders.com/ontological_and_epistemological_blunders_tag
http://www.rationalresponders.com/problems_notion_nonmaterial_aspect_conscious_process
http://www.rationalresponders.com/silence_screams_no_contemporary_historical_accounts_quotjesus
http://www.rationalresponders.com/039supernatural039_and_039immaterial039_are_broken_concepts
http://www.rationalresponders.com/quotgodquot_incoherent_term
That should get you started.
StGemma - I could walk out into the street and find a dozen people prepared to give their lives to save the world.
In case you missed it, the concept is an abiding male fixation from David and his sling to Flash Gordon.
I'm not sure you can suggest you're a wavering christian then start blazing away with gun-full of wild assumptions about
members and their weaknesses based on your heavenly father's utterly unprovables.
Nothing you wrote in your original post touched me as anything other than a regurgitation of an unsavoury dogma.
You've clearly never visited a christian site as an atheist if you find the attitude here not to your liking.
Why don't you start again by giving one single, incontestable proof jesus ever lived let along died on a cross.
And do try to use short, pithy sentences when you do it. You either have the evidence or you do not. Any digression
will give me the answer I need. Oh - and be respectful enough not to dish up the new testament, won't you?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I'm brand new to the site though I've been an atheist and skeptic for about a year now. I'm sorry you've found so much anger at so many sites. There are reasons for that anger at it isn't solely directed at your diety. Atheists are angry because we are told that we live in a country based on religion and we just need to "get over it" or "deal with it". It sucks being a minority when the rest of the country is cramming their (unscientific, unsubstantiated) beliefs down your throat constantly. Every. Single. Fricking. Day.
I can tell you that, without a doubt, I do not believe in god, yours or any other. I am not angry at him/her/it. But I AM angry at what many organized religions do in the name of a book and a god. And it's not just christians I'm mad at. It's anyone who uses a belief to harm or subjugate others.
In your original post you say you sometimes doubt the existence of god. I would tell you to trust those instincts. You know deep down when something doesn't seem quite right. Of course I understand that you were indoctrinated at a young age so it will take time to completely shed that. It takes a long time to recover from systematic abuse. And it IS abusive to tell a child that they must believe in this invisible person or they will be burnt and hurt for all eternity.
You asked: What motivates you? How will disbelieving "improve" "life" (you seem already dead)? Do you live for this world (your earthly life)? Do you live for yourself? For pleasure? To escape suffering? Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)? Do you work for the common good? What reason have you to? Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination?
You people have never experienced God - that is obvious. I tell you, most professing Christians have not known God either, and I sympathize with you for choosing to disbelieve based on your experience with nominal Christianity (for those of you who can admit this).
What motivates me: I love my life. I love my family and friends and I enjoy doing what I do in my life. I help others where I can and live each day to the fullest because I know, as an atheist, that I only HAVE this life. There's no reward waiting for me after I die and I'm content in knowing that. So I treat each day as a precious thing, because it IS.
How will "disbelieving" improve your life? I'm SO relieved that I no longer have to feel so much pressure. Am I doing the right thing? Am I thinking the right thing? Which flavor of Christianity is the "right" one? What is the "right" way to believe? What is the "right" way to pray? It is such a HUGE burden off my shoulders no longer having to conform to what others think I SHOULD be. I can just be myself. Finally.
Do you live for this world (your earthly life)? If you mean do I look forward to an afterlife, then yes I live for my earthly life. I know, as an atheist, that this is the only time I will ever get to have here on this planet. But if you mean do I live a life enmeshed in greed, suffering, etc, then no. I accept that bad things happen. I deal with them and then I move on. (read more about the bad things that have happened to me here: http://www.boobcast.wordpress.com) That's not to say that I haven't been traumatized by situations. I HAVE been as you'll see in the above blog. But instead of looking for strength in a divine being, I found it in my husband, my family and, most importantly, in MYSELF.
Do I: live for pleasure/to escape suffering? - No. I'm not a hedonist. I don't attend orgies. I barely drink alcohol and I NEVER do illicit drugs. I'm a happily married monogamous bisexual. Yes, such a thing exists.
To escape suffering: Honey, this is Planet Earth. NO ONE escapes suffering here.
Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)? It sounds rather self-aggrandizing to answer this question at all. It hurts me to see innocent people suffer for the foolishness of others. But that is also colored with the knowledge that some people have gotten themselves into the mess they are in. That doesn't make them any less in need of a caring heart. Sometimes compassion comes in the form of a brick to the head. Not literally, of course. What I mean is that sometimes it is more compassionate to point out the errors in hopes that the person will learn from those mistakes.
Do you work for the common good? What IS the common good? Who defines it? What is good for one person is not good for another. I work for the good of those who are oppressed by being an activist for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered community. These people (myself included) are denied access to many government benefits simply for who we love. Hardly an equitable thing so I work with others to right that inequity.
What reason have you to? Injustice ticks me right the hell off. It's the way I was raised. My parents taught me to stand and fight if I believe I'm right. It's as much a part of me as thinking for myself instead of allowing others to define how I should think and act.
Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination? Chemical reactions ARE real. I've had a happily ongoing chemical reaction with my husband for over 13 years.
You go on to say "You people have never experienced God - that is obvious.": That would be an incorrect assessment. I used to be christian. I used to speak in tongues. I gave accurate interpretations during tongues and interpretations in church. I felt the Holy Spirit many times.
When I was a believer I met someone who challenged me to prove the existence of god. So I started reading other books. I read "The World's 16 Crucified Saviors". I read about the bloodline of Jesus. And you know what I discovered? The chrisitan church has been lying to people about SO many things it's not even funny. Did you know that Jesus was an "oops" baby? There was a certain time of year that Joseph and Mary were supposed to have sex to ensure that their child would be born during the prophesied time. But they got busy too early and..oops!
That's just one TINY part of the conspiracy of religion that keeps people subjugated and living in fear of retribution. I refuse to live my life in fear. I have also found no proof that ANY god exists. So that's why I'm a happy, well-adjusted atheist. I hope that answers all of your questions. Please feel free to email me at [email protected] if you have any questions for me.
It is a common fallacy when people try to apply logic to your magic friend?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.