Disbelief in God or Sick of religion? [Kill Em With Kindness]

DadaMungo
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Disbelief in God or Sick of religion? [Kill Em With Kindness]

Hi!

I cannot help but sympathise with the apparent majority of the atheists who post on these forums. The main "gripe", if you will forgive the term, seems to be against the concoctions and fabrications that are the pantheon of religions in the world today. Even as a theist, I find the same quite appalling and difficult to stomach. However, I'm not finding it easy to discern in the posts I read the distinction between a disbelief in God and this anathema for organised belief.

For me, we're talking about two completely distinct matters here. And yet, this is something that even the smartest of us have difficulty keeping apart. For example, Richard Dawkins, in his bestseller The God Delusion dedicated an alarmingly small percentage of his thought on the issue of the actual existence of God. The overwhelming majority of his focus in on trying to tear down religion, firstly in its fundamentalist form and then in its more moderate forms. He seems to be one very angry chappie, poor bloke. I need not dwell on the overall weakness of his reasoning for the non-existence of God (which has been addressed by many more qualified than I). My point is that pretty much from the get-go, he allows himself to get sidetracked into railing against organised belief systems.

I'm getting the impression that the same is true on this site. So, if I could ask the atheisst to put aside their disdain for theism (or at least its abusive manifestations), I would like to know exactly how they have come the notion that there is no God. I anticipate the most common response would be the perceived lack of evidence, but I would think that the evidence (or lack thereof) has been measured according to what the doctors of religion say, or at least how they have been understood. For example, espousing the ludicrous idea that there were no rainbows before the Flood. Such thinking has been tainted by religion, so the line gets blurred. Are there reasons which remain pure and unsullied from disdain for religious thinking?

I personally feel that Dawkin's reasons fall appallingly short, despite his air of fait accompli. I would like to think that you guys could be more critical and insightful in your thinking.


aiia
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crutchlessprincipal

crutchlessprincipal wrote:

OK, not to change the subject, and i apologize for my grammar, spelling, and generally bad writting skills, but, i pose a question to all the other athiests out there. Suppose, for a moment that the christians are right. That their whole religion is correct, and yes i know, there are easily 100 different drastically different forms, but lets settle for the one that involves the rapture, and the second coming of jesus...suppose that happens. Say it happened right now. And up in the sky the entire world saw jesus. And all the christians were ppof. transubstantiated immediately, how many of you would realize your mistakes and ocnvert? This is just a hypothetical. I for one, when presented with a proff like that would more than likely champion the religion through the prophesied tribulation like a soldier. But i am just wanting to know what other atheist think on that hypothetical.

Also, i wanted to note an incongruency i found in the bible....and yes im aware there are many. Im refering to gen ch1 vs 26 here it states "AND god said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness," and the verse goes on to say that he created man and woman.(at the same time) now this is supposedly during the 5th day. If you read on you'll find that the tale continues thru days 6 and 7 when god takes a smoke break from all this creation. He then starts up again watering all the plants, and whatnot, then in gen ch2 vs. 7 it states: and the lord god formed man out of the dust and breathed life into him.....wait a minute now...if im understanding this....he has just made...man again? what happened to the first man and woman,....and if you read on further, in the same chapter verse 22 he takes the rib of the 1st? 2nd? man and made a woman (another one!?!?!?) so in summary, if i am assuming my reading skills are functioning, we have a total of 4 humans created, a man and a woman made together, then a man, then another woman. Any one care to make sense of this for me. or is it just another flaw in the bibles structure? thanks...and again, i apologize tremensely for my ineptitude at writting, grammar, punctuation, and basically everything one learns in 2nd grade english.

But we can just as easily suppose the oppose scenario for example: Jesus comes back and transubstantiates all the atheists to reward them/us/me for not believing in the most absurd concepts devised by christians because all the theists are wrong.

Right?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Right one aiia ...  

Right on aiia ...  


butterbattle
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Interesting

HPw1907 wrote:
I believe because I have peace now."

Religion can work like a placebo. Actually, since religion doesn't deal with actual medical problems, but, rather, mostly emotional issues, it can basically cure people. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

crutchlessprincipal wrote:
And up in the sky the entire world saw jesus. And all the christians were ppof. transubstantiated immediately, how many of you would realize your mistakes and ocnvert? This is just a hypothetical.

Obviously, he's implying that we already know it is Jesus. Isn't suggesting that it might be aliens kind of avoiding the question? Yes, if this event occurred, I would convert. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:HPw1907

butterbattle wrote:

HPw1907 wrote:
I believe because I have peace now."

Religion can work like a placebo. Actually, since religion doesn't deal with actual medical problems, but, rather, mostly emotional issues, it can basically cure people. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

crutchlessprincipal wrote:
And up in the sky the entire world saw jesus. And all the christians were ppof. transubstantiated immediately, how many of you would realize your mistakes and ocnvert? This is just a hypothetical.

Obviously, he's implying that we already know it is Jesus. Isn't suggesting that it might be aliens kind of avoiding the question? Yes, if this event occurred, I would convert. 

Nevermind the fact that implication doesn't take a person very far...

At one time in my life, I was a full-fledged christian.

So if Jesus exists, can we assume Satan does too? I think we would have to.

1) How would we know it was Jesus ?

What... some previously unknown something within us just screams out, "Yup, that's Jesus."

2) How would we know that it wasn't just Satan trying to deceive us?

When crutchless can answer these two questions, I can proceed with my answer as to whether or not I would convert.


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Oh Rapture!

crutchlessprincipal wrote:

OK, not to change the subject, and i apologize for my grammar, spelling, and generally bad writting skills, but, i pose a question to all the other athiests out there. Suppose, for a moment that the christians are right. That their whole religion is correct, and yes i know, there are easily 100 different drastically different forms, but lets settle for the one that involves the rapture, and the second coming of jesus...suppose that happens. Say it happened right now. And up in the sky the entire world saw jesus. And all the christians were ppof. transubstantiated immediately, how many of you would realize your mistakes and ocnvert? This is just a hypothetical. I for one, when presented with a proff like that would more than likely champion the religion through the prophesied tribulation like a soldier. But i am just wanting to know what other atheist think on that hypothetical.

Also, i wanted to note an incongruency i found in the bible....and yes im aware there are many. Im refering to gen ch1 vs 26 here it states "AND god said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness," and the verse goes on to say that he created man and woman.(at the same time) now this is supposedly during the 5th day. If you read on you'll find that the tale continues thru days 6 and 7 when god takes a smoke break from all this creation. He then starts up again watering all the plants, and whatnot, then in gen ch2 vs. 7 it states: and the lord god formed man out of the dust and breathed life into him.....wait a minute now...if im understanding this....he has just made...man again? what happened to the first man and woman,....and if you read on further, in the same chapter verse 22 he takes the rib of the 1st? 2nd? man and made a woman (another one!?!?!?) so in summary, if i am assuming my reading skills are functioning, we have a total of 4 humans created, a man and a woman made together, then a man, then another woman. Any one care to make sense of this for me. or is it just another flaw in the bibles structure? thanks...and again, i apologize tremensely for my ineptitude at writting, grammar, punctuation, and basically everything one learns in 2nd grade english.

 

 

Welcome to RRS.

 

Sadly the planet has been burdened with the absurdities of Christianity for 2,000 years but not even it ever spouted the Rapture crap.  Somehow this ‘biblical truth’ escaped the notice of Christendom until 100 years ago.  How come it took all that time to get it right?   The Catholic and Orthodox churches as well as the Reformed denominations have no tradition of such fanciful notions.    

 

Furthermore, whatever happened to the original ‘coming’ predicted in the NT?  As per: 

 

Matt 10:23: [Jesus said to his disciples] “When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”

 

1 Cor 7:29: I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none,

 

1 Thess 4:15: For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.

 

James 5:8: You also must be patient. Strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

 

Rev 22:20: [Jesus said] “Surely I am coming soon.”

 

Ooops!  What rationalizations have Christians come up with to justify Jesus getting it so wrong?

 

But those who insist on espousing such Rapture nonsense there are some big decisions to be made.  One must decide between:  Dispensational , Hyper Dispensational, Progressive Dispensational , Futurist , Historicist , Idealist , Orthodox Preterist (Partial Preterist) , Hyper Preterist (Full Preterist) , Amillennial , Pan-millennial , Post-millennial , Pre-millennial , Post-tributional Rapture , Pre-tribulational Rapture , Pre-wrath Rapture.

 

All this and more is essential to sort out for the sake of your salvation. 

 

BTW:  How come Jesus will be seen by the whole earth when the earth is round.  How can everyone see him floating down at one time…or will he have a Matinee show?  And where is Jesus floating down from?  The problem with Bronze Age religions like Christianity is the assumption that the earth is flat and that the universe is tiered with heaven, where Jesus lives, ‘up there’.

 

 

 

 

............................................................

"Humanity has the stars in its future, and that future is too important to be lost under the burden of juvenile folly and ignorant superstition". - Isaac Asimov


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God/religion is a human

God/religion is a human invention. In the early stages of civilization, it was a useful concept -- it provided the social glue that was needed then to answer questions in certain areas that science had not answered yet. As civilization advanced, and science progressed to answer more and more of those questions, the role of religion diminished. Can science answers all the questions? Probably not, but as we mature, the need for religion will become a quaint idea.


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right.

I for one refuse to be subservient to a god who will kill people for not beliving in him. I am not a athiest but a wiccan. And not in th usual sense. I refuse to be subservient to ANYONE or ANTHING!!!!!! And to be part of the christian religon that is a requirement. People should follow no one else's wil but their own.

 

-psycho 

civilize those you can and fuck the rest. the world is to big to be constantly clleaning uo a fter the weak minded.


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I had avoided this topic,

I had avoided this topic, amongst others, due to a large number of posts being there before I'd even read the opening. But there is a question hidden in that long winded speech that is effectively towards everyone, so I'll address it and be done with it.

DadaMungo wrote:

 So, if I could ask the atheisst to put aside their disdain for theism (or at least its abusive manifestations), I would like to know exactly how they have come the notion that there is no God.

God is physically impossible. I mean this literally. The laws of physics deny the possibility of every god I have ever heard defined. Maybe someone has a god that physics doesn't rule out, but I haven't heard that tale yet. I'll deal with it when I do. If I do.

Beyond that, god is no different than Luke Skywalker, Frodo, Drizzt Do'Urden, or Harry Potter. He was invented by humans for a good story. Then some strange people, who today would be locked in an asylum, started saying it was all real, and shit hit the fan.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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psychogoth wrote:I for one

psychogoth wrote:

I for one refuse to be subservient to a god who will kill people for not beliving in him. I am not a athiest but a wiccan. And not in th usual sense. I refuse to be subservient to ANYONE or ANTHING!!!!!! And to be part of the christian religon that is a requirement. People should follow no one else's wil but their own.

 

-psycho 

Huh?  '... not in th [sic] usual sense'?  So you traded in one superstition for a new superstition, or were you going to elaborate on which unusual sense of wiccan you subscribe?


 

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Well...

Wonko wrote:
1) How would we know it was Jesus ? What... some previously unknown something within us just screams out, "Yup, that's Jesus.

 Lol, I don't know, and I'm pretty sure crutchlessprincipal is not going to explain it. He has no intention of doing so. However, I think he was simply asking IF we KNEW it was Jesus, would we convert? How we reached that conclusion is irrelevant in the context of his question.  

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Vastet,  "The laws of

Vastet,  "The laws of physics deny the possibility of every god I have ever heard defined." ~~~

Yeah, NO to every "religious" defined god. I was raised atheist, were science was the only useable definition of g awe d, as meaning the entire cosmos of all existence. In a real sense, I could say all science is my religion doctrine.


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butterbattle wrote:Wonko

butterbattle wrote:

Wonko wrote:
1) How would we know it was Jesus ? What... some previously unknown something within us just screams out, "Yup, that's Jesus.

 Lol, I don't know, and I'm pretty sure crutchlessprincipal is not going to explain it. He has no intention of doing so. However, I think he was simply asking IF we KNEW it was Jesus, would we convert? How we reached that conclusion is irrelevant in the context of his question. 

 

If we did in fact KNOW it was Jesus hovering in the sky is a nearly impossible leap. That is, it would be extremely unlikely anyone could say for 100% that Jesus was in the sky. Personally, Jesus would need to answer a ton of questions from me before I'd follow him anywhere.  

So what would he need to answer for/to ? Here's my short, short, short, short  list:

 

How much of the writings within the christian holy books are true ?

If any, show me all the verses that are false.

Why would god demand that blood be spilled in his own name?

Why was the violent forty day flood and total destruction necessary ?

Why did the flood need to kill innocent children?

Why would god harden Pharaoh's heart and then kill first borns in what could only be described as a massacre?

Why is it necessary to stone people to death?

Why would god order that Midianite female virgins were to be saved while all other Midianites should be killed?

Why would over 50,000 people need to die because they looked into the ark of the covenant ?

Why should people be punished for acts committed by their ancestors?

 

Those are just the tiniest tip of the ever expanding iceberg. I would be one to question the silly and vicious things religion has taught regardless of how that might affect my eternal life.

 

 

 


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Hehehe - c'mon folks, you

Hehehe - c'mon folks, you all know none of us would belive it if we KNEW it was Jesus the Christ playing on the world's largetst big-screen TV in the sky.

We'd accept it as true by the best evidence available, like we do with anything else with evidence. Eye-wink

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Oh yeah

JillSwift wrote:
We'd accept it as true by the best evidence available, like we do with anything else with evidence. Eye-wink

Good point. So maybe saying that I would "convert" to Christianity is not the right word. I would simply regard it as more likely to be true than not true based on the fact that I can see Jesus floating in the air. Even then, we'd have to discuss what "converting" to Christianity actually entails since like half of the Bible is constantly under debate.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare