My understanding of evolution and an idiot "youth leader"

kryters
kryters's picture
Posts: 26
Joined: 2007-11-05
User is offlineOffline
My understanding of evolution and an idiot "youth leader"

Hi there guys, I do a fair amount of debating with a Christian friend of mine. Usually the debate will come to (macro)evolution. Now, I have a fairly limited knowledge of this subject but can go over the basics. It seems after just a few months of being a creationist, all of the usual shash has been firmly implanted into him by his "youth leader".

So I begin to tell him about my understanding of evolution: explaining that evolution and abiogenesis are totally different; the subtle difference of macroevolution and evolution (what he accepts and calls "adaptation", viral mutations and stuff); explaining that his idea of evolution is what Dawkins calls the "combination lock", where there is no reward in doing something which is closer to the ideal, and is wrong.

(Possibility of bad biology coming up - I'm not a biologist, I'm hoping to be a chemist. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

He mentioned that if evolution were correct, all animals would have evolved into a perfect species at the same rate, and we'd all be exactly the same. I countered by mentioning the differing habitats of the various animals, and so the need for change would have been different in each case. He is assuming a closed system. Even then, I continued, there is tremendous chance involved in the gene selection process. What he is saying is that all children born of the same parents should look the same.

I mentioned bad genes, and how each time natural selection ensures that these genes are kept from us. A negative recessive gene "r", if combined with another "r" (rr), will show up in a victim's phenotype and do one of the following:

1. Discourage prospective mates from mating with them (survival of the fittest),

2. Impair their life so as they can't mate,

3. Kill them before they can mate, So that the bad gene isn't passed on. It makes sense.

So why are these conditions still around? Well, again, this isn't a closed system - prospective partners aren't just thinking about this "r" gene. They'll be looking at their partner's physical appearance, ability to provide, etc.. In my eyes, negative dominant conditions make even more sense in natural selection terms. Say the fatal condition "D" is a dominant allele. The Punnet square dictates that the possibilities for "Rr" mating with "Rr" are: RR, Rr, Rr, rr. The first three in that list will die. The other will survive (if they don't have another fatal gene, of course =P). They won't just survive, though. They won't have a trace of the gene in their genotypes, meaning they can't pass it on. The bad gene is abolished! For the first time in a while, my debating rival was speechless. Waay!

I still don't understand how he can reject this yet accept what he calls "adaptation". I think this is because he knows fine that things adapt. We see it in viral mutations. It is why we can't vaccine the cold virus and why H5N1 seems such a threat. How can he then reject macroevolution? I mean, you can adapt and adapt and adapt, and eventually you're going to look nothing like how you started!

And his view on abiogenesis is a very confused one, indeed! He kept insisting that life couldn't have come "ex-nihlo" (not what I'm saying at all), so to highlight how ridiculous this was I insisted that God couldn't have been made from nothing. Of course, that debate just degenerated... =P =D (End of bad biology)

An appendix to this "debate" featured a point I like to make very clear :- I'm not an evolutionary biologist, but they do exist. You can go up to one and ask him whatever you want and you'll get answers. If there is something s/he cannot answer, after enough research, an answer (or at least a sound hypothesis where uncertain) will be found. That cannot be provided with God. Of course, he argued that this was not the case. This lead me to modify what I said by adding "in this reality" twice, simply because you really can't ask questions about this life to God. No no! Only when you're dead when it's irrelevant. Absurd! =P =D

So away from the science now, his youth leader is a total idiot. He came to our school - it is required in Scotland that we have one "religious" (read Christian) assembly per year. Lucky, but too much in my eyes. Unless, of course, the lecturers are as bad as this guy. He basically came in and insulted every non-Christian to the point where even my usually placid friends demanded why school time was wasted on this guy. I suggested taking it right to the top and ridding the country of the law altogether. It was an insult to my arse, mostly, as it was the one sitting through it... Anyway, he's American (Bible Belt, if I recall correctly), looks younger than he is, "hip" in a boringly Christian way, and spends a lot of his time in Borders/Starbucks. Oh and he's a prat, if you hadn't already realised.


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
My first disclaimer is that

My first disclaimer is that I am not an evolutionary biologist. I am a molecular biologist, but I do know my way around evolutionary biology.

Quote:

 He mentioned that if evolution were correct, all animals would have evolved into a perfect species at the same rate, and we'd all be exactly the same.

This claim is not merely false, it is gibberish. The concept of "perfect species" is categorically in error.

Evolution is simply the heritidable change in gene frequencies in populations due to selective pressure. At least, that was the classical view, we now understand genetic drift to be almost as important. The selection will ultimately be determined by the environment, and so phenotypic divergence will occur as a result of whatever phenotypic changes are entailed by useful mechanisms for increased procreation and hence the frequency of those allelles in that environment. As a result, phenotypes diverge. Your twit friend has it backwards. Life started from a common ancestor and the arms of the phylogeny diverge outward, they never converge. Never. It's impossible. I don't quite think this poor deluded twit understands that all modern organisms are just as "evolved" as any other on the phylogenic tree. A modern bacteria is just as "evolved" as a modern human. And they are just as adept at surviving. There is no such thing as a perfect organism, and evolution does not have eschatology, and arms of a cladogram never converge, by nature of the types of mutations that occur (homology is driven by duplicative errors) the phenotypic diversity increases with time, that is to say that because of the increase in homologous sets, the collective genome tends to diversify, and once two arms of the cladogram are genetically seperate, they do not meet again. It's probabalistically impossible. And evolution does not work "towards" anything, and lastly, the relationship between genes (which do diverge at constant rates) and phenotypes is not directly proportional. Not by a long shot. That's six errors that demonstrate your interlocutor doesn't even know what the fuck he's even debating!

 

Quote:

 (survival of the fittest)

Never, ever use the phrase survival of the fittest. It's a meaningless phrase. It was coined by idiots in the popular media. 

Quote:

  What he is saying is that all children born of the same parents should look the same.

A seventh piece of ignorance. The number of possible allele recombinations is greater than...well, certainly greater the number of brain cells he is in possession of.

Quote:

 ell, again, this isn't a closed system - prospective partners aren't just thinking about this "r" gene. They'll be looking at their partner's physical appearance, ability to provide, etc..

Not really. Deleterious allelles can stay for numerous reasons. However, I do not think that is one of them. The primary reason is if they are recessive in heterozygous organisms 

 

Quote:

 For the first time in a while, my debating rival was speechless.

I congratulate you, but do you mean to tell me that this idiot was trying to debate evolution without being based in the laws of the Punnett Square? Shouldn't you have pointed out that engineers, for example,  need to know addition and subtraction before they can design buildings?

Quote:
 

 I still don't understand how he can reject this yet accept what he calls "adaptation".

Because he's an idiot. There is no process difference between "micro" and "macro". "Macroevolution" is just a broad term which refers to any evolutionary change which involves speciation. Although there are some creationists who challenge that speciation is impossible because species by definition can only exchange genetic material with those of the same species, such statements require egregious understanding of basic genetics. For one, the concept of "species" entails by virtue of its meaning a continuum of possible genomes with small differences such that sexual recombination is still possible (In asexual organisms, the concept of species is even more arbitrary). When examining species which have diverged from each other from a common ancestor tracing back, say, 50 million years, the intra-species genomic changes will be neglibible compared to the inter-species genomic differences. Generally speaking, when two human genomes are sequenced at random, they will differ in approximately 0.1% of the sequence. Which would compare to a much greater percentage between a human and a mouse which also needs to take chromosomal polymorphism into account. When dealing with such disparities, we refer to what is called the fixed difference, that is, the difference that will hold true of inter-species mutation for any two representatives of the two species being selected because the intra-species difference is negligible in comparison. 

So, to understand how speciation works, at least, at an extremely basic level, it is necessary to understand that any gene frequency that is now a characteristic of the whole species began as a mutation in a single organism. If this organism exists in a breeding population of size N, for sexually recombining organisms, than for diploid oragnisms, the initial allele frequency of the mutation which later spreads throughout any population is obviously (N/2). The change and rate of change of this allele will depend on consequences. If it is deleterious, like most, it will probably be eliminated quickly. If it is selectively neutral, it can spread via sampling error, the general rule is that for any neutral mutation, it will take 4N generations in a population of constant size N, to spread through the genome. As for benificial mutations, such spreads are determined by virtue of their ability to propogate, by which I mean increase the survival and procreation of the organisms which hold it, and so, itself. This holds true regardless of whether one accepts gene centers evolution. 

There is really no difference between micro and macro. When there are two species which are recently diverged from a common ancestor, their fixed difference will be hard to measure, because the intra-inter species differences will not be as clear as for a solidly established divergence that occured, say, 100 million years ago from their common ancestor. Speciation simply reflects that genome changes are continuum by nature, and there is no functional or process difference in the selection processes, it is simply the compounding effect of...well, more time, generally speaking. The laws of biology dictate that evolution will occur. Because mutation rates for each gene remain constant for that gene based on its functionality, the general rule of thumb on a molecular level is more time=more divergence. This is called the molecular clock and is firmly established by modern molecular phylogenics, making use of a class of nucleotide sequences called fibrinopeptides. 

Quote:

 u started! And his view on abiogenesis is a very confused one, indeed! He kept insisting that life couldn't have come "ex-nihlo"

A thorough misunderstanding of the law of biogenesis, which eliminates the ancient view that maggots, for example, are spontaneously generated from meat. Spontaneous generation is impossible, but the law of Biogenesis has no comment on a long, complex process of chemical evolution.

 

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


FulltimeDefendent
Scientist
FulltimeDefendent's picture
Posts: 455
Joined: 2007-10-02
User is offlineOffline
A note on Biogenesis

I just want to point out (I'm only a student, so I might get something wrong here) that the idea that evolution does not account for the origin, but only the diversity of life is under scrutiny. John Maynard  Smith successfully applied the evolutionary algorithm of variation, inheritance,  and selection to a hypothetical model of the origin of life from a non-living,  replicating structure. Smith demonstrated that a few probable pre-genetic processes analogous to mutations could have been result in the evolution of life from such non-living replicators. DNA is the most well-known "replicator" today, but DNA is not the oldest. DNA evolved from a precursor. There are many theories as to how the first structures resembling prokaryotic cells formed by the accumulation of changes and began to replicate with some element of inheritable variation and room for further mutations. Certainly classical evolutionary theory does not explain the origin of life, but I see no contradiction between the Modern Synthesis and the notion of Biogenesis as a Darwinian process. Indeed, this is the Universal Darwinism that Dennet, Dawkins, Blackmore and others have been arguing for.


 

“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Quote:I just want to point

Quote:

I just want to point out (I'm only a student, so I might get something wrong here) that the idea that evolution does not account for the origin, but only the diversity of life is under scrutiny.

Its not merely under scrutiny, it has been successfully refuted. As you pointed out, chemical evolution is a well established process, and if not DNA, precursor molecules such as RNA and pre-RNA systems were definitely the antecedants of modern DNA-based organisms. The RNA world and chemical evolution are well-established and reasonable principle. The same principles apply to the replication of much simpler molecules that also function by templated polymerization. Ribozymes certainly predated enzymes. This is unsurprising since polynucleotides can encode information by serving as a template to guide synthesis of their own copies, and ribozymes can do so by autocatalysis. Because they do not form base-pairing or any anologous tempalte structure, polypeptides do not have this ability.

 

Quote:

DNA is the most well-known "replicator" today, but DNA is not the oldest. DNA evolved from a precursor

Certainly. I currently think, although I could be easily wrong, that PNA is the most likely candidate. RNA systems come from PNA systems and DNA systems from RNA systems. RNA nucleic acids are too large to have been the first precursor of DNA. As for proteins, those most likely originated before DNA-based organisms, in ribozymes that could bind amino acids. They've obviously overtaken ribozymes since they are much better catalysts, but there are still plenty of ribozymes in modern day cells that give clues to their ancient evolutionary origins. Ribosomes are ribozymes, so are snRNP and snoRP and miRNP complexes.

Quote:

cells formed by the accumulation of changes and began to replicate with some element of inheritable variation and room for further mutations. Certainly classical evolutionary theory does not explain the origin of life

Indeed. thank you for bringing this up. Most opponents of evolution wouldn't know the modern synthesis if it walked up to them and kicked them.

Quote:

but I see no contradiction between the Modern Synthesis and the notion of Biogenesis as a Darwinian process

Nor I. I enjoyed reading your post.

 

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


HisWillness
atheistRational VIP!
HisWillness's picture
Posts: 4100
Joined: 2008-02-21
User is offlineOffline
 This is a side-note, but I

 This is a side-note, but I think this is exactly where responders get stunned by believers. The beauty of scientific culture is the ever-looming suspicion that you might have it wrong. The humility in that is beautiful. On the other hand, when you have a theory as strong as evolution, let's face it: rationalists can get smug. The sheer weight of evidence is so overwhelming, and opposing or even alternate theories are so weak by comparison, that when someone says something like, "Evolution sucks!", the rational response is "As a theory? Why?" Of course we're stunned! Friends of mine have devoted years of their lives testing hypotheses about just one aspect of the process. While the underlying doubt is still there in healthy measure ... fucking c'mon!

I know I'm preaching to the choir, here, but there's a kind of unanswered question for me: how is it even possible to communicate the culture of science to others? I don't mean the information - that's secondary, because once you're on board with the scientific method, a whole world opens up. I mean the culture. The culture that we share, with a fascination for new hypotheses and evidence. What does it take to get a believer to be able to accept evidence in the first place, instead of listening to his/her social group?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


inspectormustard
atheist
inspectormustard's picture
Posts: 537
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
HisWillness wrote: This is

HisWillness wrote:

 This is a side-note, but I think this is exactly where responders get stunned by believers. The beauty of scientific culture is the ever-looming suspicion that you might have it wrong. The humility in that is beautiful. On the other hand, when you have a theory as strong as evolution, let's face it: rationalists can get smug. The sheer weight of evidence is so overwhelming, and opposing or even alternate theories are so weak by comparison, that when someone says something like, "Evolution sucks!", the rational response is "As a theory? Why?" Of course we're stunned! Friends of mine have devoted years of their lives testing hypotheses about just one aspect of the process. While the underlying doubt is still there in healthy measure ... fucking c'mon!

I know I'm preaching to the choir, here, but there's a kind of unanswered question for me: how is it even possible to communicate the culture of science to others? I don't mean the information - that's secondary, because once you're on board with the scientific method, a whole world opens up. I mean the culture. The culture that we share, with a fascination for new hypotheses and evidence. What does it take to get a believer to be able to accept evidence in the first place, instead of listening to his/her social group?

A wise man once said "Giddem-while-they're-young." Barring that, we'll need an old atheist, a young atheist, and a gallon of holy acid.


ronin-dog
Scientist
ronin-dog's picture
Posts: 419
Joined: 2007-10-18
User is offlineOffline
Good posts, deluded god."He

Good posts, deluded god.

"He mentioned that if evolution were correct, all animals would have evolved into a perfect species at the same rate, and we'd all be exactly the same."

deluded god answered this well, but here is another point:

Living organisms adapt/evolve to better suit their niche. They need to be able to survive where they are, with food sources that are there and in competition with the species around them. It is a constant strugle and species either adapt to better survive where they are or shift slightly to compete better in a different way (different food source, different location etc). Religious types of course think of mankind as the pinacle (god's image). But if we were the only species, what would we eat? There is a web of life that interacts, struggles and evolves.

 

"survival of the fittest". It was not Darwin's choice of words and is the most misused phrase in science. It is not about being the fittest. It is about being fit enough to survive.

The full title of Darwin's book is: On the origin of species by means of natural selection, or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life.

(he used "races" to include sub-species and varieties)

One of his main observations was that there are many more animals born than survive to adulthood. It follows that those that survived most likely had some small advantage over those that didn't. This is the seed of it. There is never any mention of convergence in evolution.

 

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51