I'd really like to hear a theist response to this.

Hence, bump. 

Bump

Fine, I'll bite the bullet. I don't believe that God has stopped creating. But then I believe evolution... I don't ignore cold hard facts.

*Croutches back into her hole covering her head screaming, "DON'T HURT ME!!!!"*

Also, Wishkah311, if you believe evolution to be true, how do you reconcile that with the story of creation in the bible?  I know that catholics are not biblical literalists....but in essence christianity bases it's belief of god from the bible and the creation story is a biblical truth, so if you believe in evolution how do you reconcile that with biblical truth?  And if you do not buy the bible as being the inerrant word of god, how do you prove god does exist?  Jesus? 

I suppose you could say that one could believe god created the earth but not the way the bible says. But then you would get into the whole 'the Bible is the infallible word of god' issue. Why is it that it seems so many people don't buy the creation story but still believe in god? This raises so many questions for me. Perhaps I'm just being dense.

I don't think a person can come to a rational conclusion that god exists based on many things. I would like to understand why so many people do. It's more of a social curiosity rather than a rational one.

Okay... for lack of a better word, I am a Catholic. But, as people keep telling me, I don't act or believe like a good Catholic. I don't adhere to any organized faith (that I am aware of). I haven't read the bible in many years. I certainly don't adhere to the bible like most Christians feel they should. It is a book written by man. Inspired by God? Maybe. But does that make it all true... I don't know. I choose not to ignore it, but to look at it as an interesting book with an interesting history... so evolution doesn't conflict with my beliefs.

However, let's say for the sake of argument, that the Creation story from the bible is true. If someone asked me (uneducated in the mystical ways of science: P) what the creation looked like, I would probably say something along the lines of "And God said 'Let there be light' and ther was. God created the land and the water and all the little ducks and kitties and bunnies. Uhm, yeah... God created it all.. there you go." I don't know how to explain physics... I'm not that smart... so I would put it in simple terms of God did this, etc. Not to mention, if I am pushing my own agenda about how women should be subserviant to men, then I would make Eve from a rib bone... that way... God MADE woman from man to SERVE man... When really... it's evolution. But you can't explain evolution to someone with absolutely no knowledge of modern (or ancient) science.. thus we have the creation story.  And I don't think evolution conflicts with that all that much.

As for proving God and Jesus exist... I don't. I believe and that is enough for me. I have a hard time believing there isn't a higher power out there some where, be it God, Jehovah, Allah, or whomever. I call him God. I don't have logical equations for my belief system... cause that's impossible. It works for me though.  

Thus endeth the lesson.... sorry about the length.

Wishkah, first I want you to notice that I'm a furry, lovable kitty... ignore the gun for the time being. That's for people who are willfully ignorant or who are just arguing for the sake of being "right." You sound like you're interested in what is real and what is not, so I have a couple of questions for you.

Ok. No logical equations, I promise! Let's just think about the rest of your life for a minute. Can you think of anything you believe that you don't have a reason for believing? I certainly hope not. Every belief, even a false one, has a basis. Mom and Dad tell you that Santa exists, so you believe it. Not based on a logical equation, but because your parents said so, and you believe them. When we're young, it doesn't occur to us that our parents might be wrong or mistaken. Later, we realize that our parents are human and make just as many mistakes as we do. Hopefully, we start making decisions based on more than just "Mom and Dad said so."

Unfortunately, many people still hold beliefs "because So-And-So said so." Have you noticed how many people in America still believe there are WMDs in Iraq? Even though the evidence is overwhelming that there are none? The power of persuasion is very strong, and some people don't want to do the thinking themselves. They'd rather just believe someone else because it's more comfortable, or because it means they won't have to admit they're wrong, or because they're afraid their family won't accept them if they don't believe it...

Can you see where I'm going with this? "I believe and that is enough for me." These are your words. Do they sound like they could apply to WMDs? Lots of people say it. "This is America, dang-blast-it! If Our Savior and President says it, I believe it. That settles it." You can see how it's kind of dangerous, right?

Next, you said, "I have a hard time believing there isn't a higher power out there some where, be it God, Jehovah, Allah, or whomever." Think about this for a second. You say you don't understand science, and that's cool. This doesn't take any science. Can you think of anything else that's difficult to believe, but is true? Clearly these things happen all the time in science. It's difficult for me to believe that a satellite orbiting the earth is actually in free-fall, and that the only thing that keeps it up is the motion of the earth, but it's true. (If oversimplified...) It was difficult for people to believe that the earth was round until Aristotle noticed a curved shadow on the moon. Would you say that people are better off knowing that the earth is round? Of course they are!  Do you like your cell phone?  Satellite technology makes it possible.

So, here's the real question. Why is the existence of god any different? God either exists, or he doesn't. Why would you think that humanity wouldn't be better off knowing the truth? Every advance that humanity has made has been from trying to discover the truth. Why should your religion be exempt from the search for truth? Because it makes you feel good about the universe? How do you know that you wouldn't feel better if you knew there was no god? What makes you think that religion is the only thing that is better left unexamined? Is it scary to think that there might not be a god? Do you think you would still manage to get up tomorrow morning if there wasn't?

I think you'd manage, and in fact, from your post, it doesn't seem like the world would change much for you. Why do you think you avoid examining the idea of god? Are you afraid of something?

A nice thought, but you don't know this. I thought the same thing when I was a theist. I was wrong.

Not quite, actually. Frankly, I'd love to live in a world where I never had to give god-belief a thought, the same way I don't have to give Santa Claus a thought. I imagine 99.8% of atheists feel the same way. Religious belief is different because it is a positive belief that changes the way people view the world, and often, the way they relate to people around them. This positive belief affects me in negative ways. Atheism, per se, does not, and cannot affect people that way.  (Note that the words "positive belief" do not mean "good belief," but rather "belief that a thing exists.&quot

This is not a real sentence. I'm not trying to bust your chops on it, but this doesn't say anything. Once upon a time, you did not believe in god. Then, you did. Something happened to make you believe. What was it? (I'm really asking the question. It's not rhetorical. If I had to guess, it's because your parents told you so, or you saw them praying, or went to church with them. Am I wrong?)

Didn't say you did. I was pointing out that believing something without knowing why you believe can be extremely dangerous -- if more people had asked better questions, tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens would be alive. Belief without evidence is very, very dangerous.

It's great that you allow questions. I wonder if you've ever questioned whether faith is a virtue. I mean, believing something without evidence, or contrary to the evidence... is that something that is generally good in life? If not, why would it be good with regard to god?

Again, these are not rhetorical questions. If you've answered all these questions for yourself, and don't mind others asking, I'm interested in precisely why you decided that the issue of god should be exempt from critical thought.

Sorry to get into something a little technical with you, but you don't believe without proof. Belief is not a choice, it is a state of being. No matter how much I want to believe that I can walk through a wall, I can't make myself believe it. I believe that I cannot because of evidence to that effect. You believe because of something in your mind that convinces you... that's your proof. My contention, and the contention of atheists in general, is that your proof, if you examine it thoroughly, is not up to the standards you set for believing other things. If you were to discover this for yourself, you might stop believing in god. You wouldn't have a choice in the matter. You'd either believe or not.

My last question for you is this: Have you ever considered the difference between "belief in god" and "belief in belief in god"? Lots of people have these nebulous, undefined ideas about the existence of some indefinable thing, but when it comes down to it, they believe that believing in god is a good thing, so they live their lives with quasi-belief -- not a fully formed opinion that they genuinely believe, but a vague notion that it's a good thing to believe.

What do you think of that?

Well, yes. You did what a lot of theists do. You wrote a lot and said very little. I am saying that with as much respect as possible because I believe you tried to answer me, and I don't think you're doing the "apologetics mambo" that so many theists do just because they want to win the argument.

Like I said, everything you believe is valid to you. If it wasn't, you wouldn't believe it. Of course, the feeling that something is valid has nothing to do with the actual validity of it. Again, I have to get a little technical on you about the word, valid. In logic, the word means simply that the equation is good. If you plug in true information, you'll theoretically get a true result if the equation is valid. Likewise, if you plug in false info, you tend to get false results.

Your reasons for believing in god may satisfy you, but they are not valid. I know this because in my decade or so of active atheism, I've encountered maybe ten thousand arguments for believing in god, and 100% of them were invalid. (As a matter of fact, all 10,000 of them boil down to two or three mistakes in logic!)

Illogical? Yes. Invalid? Yes. Irrational? Yes. Provable? No. So why do you believe? What other thing do you believe in that you admit doesn't or can't exist?

Well, to be precise, it's all about faith. Faith is why you're wrong, and why you can't satisfy anyone who is looking for a good answer -- including yourself. You don't have to justify yourself to me. The interesting question is, why are you trying? Is there something about your belief that troubles you? How is it that you can get so far through my response, conceding my points, and still maintain that your faith is enough? This is the crux of what I'm trying to say to you. God is most likely the only thing in your life that you will accept on such shaky rationale. Why do you try so hard to believe in something that doesn't even have a demonstrable effect on your life?

That's my whole point, wishkah. You wouldn't have believed in god if you hadn't been indoctrinated at a young age. If someone approached you with the idea now, and you'd never heard of it, you'd dismiss it as so much mythical mumbo-jumbo, most likely. I'm trying to get you to wrap your mind around the facts, and separate them from the emotional feelings that you attach to the idea.

(Rambo-Kitty's claws are still in. If anything sounds mean, I'm sorry. I'm just a call-em-like-I-see-em kitty. I'm genuinely interested in your answers, and am trying to help!)

Last thing: When I was a theist, I went through a phase very similar to you, where I probably was more a deist. When someone asked me the same questions I just posed to you, I got mad. I thought, "How dare they question my personal beliefs like that?! They are so arrogant to presume that they know my beliefs are invalid. My beliefs are personal! They have no right to talk to me that way!" Once I got over being mad, I realized that they weren't arrogant at all, and they did know that my belief was wrong. It's tough taking emotion out of the equation, but if you think about it, emotion hardly ever contributes anything good to a discussion when you're interested in cold, hard facts.

I think you did fine, hamby.  and I hope that my not appearing earlier on this thread is not taken as cowardice.  I just find that when you are already in a discussion/debate like this and it starts again somewhere else, the best thing you can do is let the conversation catch back up to you.  Again, I think you've done a very respectable job (and I appreciate it.)

terribly sorry about that... but I didn't want you guys to be disappointed if no one showed up to talk... so I did.  Not to mention, some of you have mentioned an interest in my beliefs... so I figured this might be a good opportunity to discuss some of that.  (or try to in my case). 

that is more than understandable... the day the Westborough Baptist Church affects my life and my country and my politics... I'll just have to move to France...  

Okay, until I get the chance to research pantheism and panentheism and all the other theism in detail, it might just be safer to say that I am a Wishkahtheist.... IT'S ALL MINE!!!!!  I'm the only person I know that believes how I do, so it might be best to just call it my own little branch of theism until further notice...  or whatever...

Hamby:

Thanks for being patient with me... I'm sorry I kept getting a little confused.  I had to bring out my pocket atheist dictionary and everything : P  And thanks for continuing the conversation.  I'll be on the look out for any more questions from you guys.

Uh oh.  Be very careful how you pronounce that.

Wishk-ahtheist. 

Wishkah311, I commend you on your openness and honestly.  I always look forward to your posts.  You're cool in my book! 

Now anyone else would like to answer my original question on this post?

Well, I guess it says something coming from two high level mods in an atheist forum.  But as I've said before, if all theists were of your brand, I would not be so harsh in my criticism of religion.  Unfortunately though, that's not the case.

Sounds like a party..hahahaha.  I'll bring my friend Jack....Daniels that is. 

Sounds to me like a Freethinker's party!