You respond to a theist who will be coming on the show soon...

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You respond to a theist who will be coming on the show soon...

We accepted his request. We also alerted him that we're posting this thread, and will alert him to it....

YOU RESPOND:

Quote:

FROM: Dave M

Hello All

Your website and your efforts are very interesting. I've even viewed some
of the video clips from blasphemychallnege.com, and I have some questions
for you. First off, many folks who adhere to these views repeat the
mantra that they've come to their conclusions via logic and reason. However, I've not been able to find on your site, or any other similar
site for that matter, any explanation of the origin of the universe. You
see, the big bang theory is predominant among many atheists. A stable
singularity the size of a baseball that contained all the matter and
energy in the known universe that suddely exploded into what we see today.
Physics proved that objects in motion will stay in motion unless acted
upon by an outside force, and objects at rest will remian at rest unless
acted upon by an outside force. Can you answer the question of What force
acted on the singularity that caused the Big Bang? This would be most
helpful in your debates.

Also, many who adhere to your philosophy would also adhere to the fact
that we are all here by chance. Science has proven that all of the
information contained in our own DNA would fill the Grand Canyon forty
times over with books of information. Thats incredible considering that
it happened by chance. It would be like dropping the pieces of a scrabble
board on the floor and getting the first sentence of War and Peace, very
unlikey.

In conclusion I would like to say that yes indeed I am a Christian, but I
used to study Evolution, and I will admit that I used to share the same
views as you. I also saw on your website that you have a radio show. I
would very much like to challennge anyone at your organization to an
on-air debate so that I can prove that your ideas are flawed.

Let me know,

Dave

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I wish I had a button on my

I wish I had a button on my computer I could press to give a 50,000 volt shock to anyone who misrepresented the word "theory." Gravity is a theory so I guess you expect to float into space one of these days. Since we have the "Germ Theory of Disease", and it, after all, is "only a theory" you should immediately stop getting any vaccines and never take antibiotics when you get sick - it is after all only a theory and not a law so yuo should just pray.

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MattShizzle wrote:I wish I

MattShizzle wrote:
I wish I had a button on my computer I could press to give a 50,000 volt shock to anyone who misrepresented the word "theory." Gravity is a theory so I guess you expect to float into space one of these days. Since we have the "Germ Theory of Disease", and it, after all, is "only a theory" you should immediately stop getting any vaccines and never take antibiotics when you get sick - it is after all only a theory and not a law so yuo should just pray.

Yeah, I'm tired of having to explain to theists what a theory is in science. I suppose they believe the whole heliocentric theory is also "just a theory".


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Noor: I wish I had a cool

Noor:

I wish I had a cool quote from a guy who found it necessary to kill himself. I don't surmize he was 'thinking' too clear when he did that, so I guess accdoring to logic he mustn't have been an atheists.

Maybe you can find some more words of intellectual wisdom from Jim Morrison, or Jimmi Hendrix.

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MattShizzle: I do pray, and

MattShizzle:

I do pray, and it works!


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I know what a theory is. "a

I know what a theory is.

"a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. "

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dmiclock

dmiclock wrote:
MattShizzle:

I do pray, and it works!

Empirical studies demonstrate that it does not. It might make you feel better but it does not alter the outcome of any situation.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


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dmiclock wrote:I know what a

dmiclock wrote:
I know what a theory is.

"a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. "

This is the colloquial usage.

"In science, a theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation."

source

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You all present theories as

You all present theories as actual facts, and until we get over that hurdle, I don't believe we can have a good discussion.

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dmiclock wrote:You all

dmiclock wrote:
You all present theories as actual facts, and until we get over that hurdle, I don't believe we can have a good discussion.

I have just explained to you that a theory and a fact are not different levels of certainty. A fact is a datum. For example, an apple falls to the ground. A theory is the explanatory model used to explain a set of data. For example, this is the currently accepted theory of gravitation.

Do not get upset at me, I am educating you.

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Insidium Profundis

Insidium Profundis wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
I know what a theory is.

"a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. "

This is the colloquial usage.

"In science, a theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation."

source

Sapient:

This is exacly the type of thing I was discussing in my email to you. I pulled the definition of theory right from the dictionary and I still get arguments. "That is the colloquial usage."

Give me a break.

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Hey Immodium or

Hey Immodium or Insidium,

Would you agree that Paris is the capital of France?

Good then we're in agreement!

KITH
Brain Candy

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Quote:This is exacly the

Quote:
This is exacly the type of thing I was discussing in my email to you. I pulled the definition of theory right from the dictionary and I still get arguments. "That is the colloquial usage."

Give me a break.

In other words, why bother reading long explanatory essays about the differences in usage of a word when your dictionary defines it in less than 25 words? What you are displaying is willful ignorance.

The word "theory" does not mean the same thing in science as it does in every day speech. I am trying to acquaint you with the scientific definition - the definition one should adhere to when discussing scientific theories. Instead of reading up on it, you merely reject it. How disappointing.

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So I'm assuming you believe

So I'm assuming you believe the atomic theory, theory of relativity, heliocentric theory, etc. are all "just theories"? (Unless you say the above three examples are not science-related)


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dmiclock wrote:Hey

dmiclock wrote:
Hey Insidium,

Would you agree that Paris is the capital of France?

Good then we're in agreement!

Of course I agree, but I fail to see the point of this.

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Insidium Profundis

Insidium Profundis wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
MattShizzle:

I do pray, and it works!

Empirical studies demonstrate that it does not. It might make you feel better but it does not alter the outcome of any situation.

And what were those empirical studies? A bunch of lab coats standing around a table, clip boards in hand and shaking their heads when they fail to see the million dollars instantly appear after they prayed for it?

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dmiclock wrote:And what were

dmiclock wrote:
And what were those empirical studies? A bunch of lab coats standing around a table, clip boards in hand and shaking their heads when they fail to see the million dollars instantly appear after they prayed for it?

Here is the source.

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noor wrote:theory of

noor wrote:
theory of relativity

I didn't know that you were the only human in history to have ever traveled on a ship at the speed of light and experienced time slow down?

Excuse me.

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dmiclock wrote:I didn't know

dmiclock wrote:
I didn't know that you were the only human in history to have ever traveled on a ship at the speed of light and experienced time slow down?

Excuse me.

Actually, it can be proven in a lab using the lead of a pencil.

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Why should God answer

Why should God answer prayers for people who don't believe in him?


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dmiclock wrote:Why should

dmiclock wrote:
Why should God answer prayers for people who don't believe in him?

The people who were doing the praying were religious folks. Read the article!

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Insidium Profundis

Insidium Profundis wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
I didn't know that you were the only human in history to have ever traveled on a ship at the speed of light and experienced time slow down?

Excuse me.

Actually, it can be proven in a lab using the lead of a pencil.

I give Up, why don't you go and see if Booger and Pointdexter want to head down to the library this evening?

Just kidding, but I can't win with you, you're tooooo sharp.

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Insidium Profundis

Insidium Profundis wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
Why should God answer prayers for people who don't believe in him?

The people who were doing the praying were religious folks. Read the article!

I'll read up on it.

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Has anyone on this site ever

Has anyone on this site ever prayed. And Insidium, that was a cheap shot at you with the Revenge of the Nerds reference and I apologize.

It was behavior unbecoming of a Christian.

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dmiclock wrote:noor

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
theory of relativity

I didn't know that you were the only human in history to have ever traveled on a ship at the speed of light and experienced time slow down?

Excuse me.

Do you have any idea how stupid you appear coming on here and trying to claim that established science like relativity and evolution are wrong? You aren't being radical, or interesting, or even particularly faithful since many, many christians acknowledge these facts. All you are accomplishing is putting a whole lot of ignorance on display, and soon we are going to start mocking you for it.

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Quote:I give Up, why don't

Quote:
I give Up, why don't you go and see if Booger and Pointdexter want to head down to the library this evening?

Just kidding, but I can't win with you, you're tooooo sharp.

It may not be the sort of thing that is discussed at high school proms and football games, but this is how knowledge is generated. There is no way to obtain useful information about nature other than to conduct empirical studies and experiments.

Quote:
Has anyone on this site ever prayed. And Insidium, that was a cheap shot at you with the Revenge of the Nerds reference and I apologize.

I have never seen that movie, neither have I ever prayed.

Conduct the following experiment: take three coins. Now, hold one up and drop it on the floor. Do the same with the next one. Before doing the third, consider how many Muslims or Christians it would take to pray to their respective gods in order for the third one not to fall. The fact of the matter is that it will always fall, regardless of how many people pray. Most people are guilty of selection bias in terms of prayer: in other words, no matter how many times their prayers are unanswered, the fact that a few of their prayers are realized (solely through naturalistic means, I should add) will keep them believing in the effectiveness of prayer. The difference between the coin toss experiment and, say, curing lung cancer is only that it is far more difficult to predict whether lung cancer can be cured in a given patient, so when it does happen, people often attribute it to prayer. However, the actual cause is a combination of effective medical treatment, a good immune system, and a positive outlook.

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Dude. You seriously need to

Dude. You seriously need to learn a little more about science. It appears you are completely ignorant of many areas not only of science and scientific language, but also logic itself. Do yourself a favor and read up on real science (not Christian apologetics), or you are going to make a complete ass out of yourself when you go on the show - on the other hand it might make the show a bit more entertaining.

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dmiclock wrote:Has anyone on

dmiclock wrote:
Has anyone on this site ever prayed.

Of course, many of use were Christians. Specifically all of the co-hosts of the RRS show were some variety of Christian at one point. I used to talk to my ceiling *cough* *prayed* every night.


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Sapient wrote:dmiclock

Sapient wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
Has anyone on this site ever prayed.

Of course, many of use were Christians.

No, dude, I doubt it very much that you even came close to being a Christian! You're angry and upset because you cannot make sense of the world, and you're grasping at straws to find answers in science.

You're all like little children throwing temper tantrums, and what you did yesterday to Paucome was akin to taking your ball and going home!!

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dmiclock wrote:Sapient

dmiclock wrote:
Sapient wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
Has anyone on this site ever prayed.

Of course, many of use were Christians.

No, dude, I doubt it very much that you even came close to being a Christian! You're angry and upset because you cannot make sense of the world, and you're grasping at straws to find answers in science.

I'm pretty sure many of the atheists here were once Christian believers (Take a look at DebunkingChristianity.org - there was a recent post about whether the ex-Christians there were really Christian believers. John Loftus, the creator of the blog, was a former apologist, now an atheist.)

Also, you're the one who's desperately trying to grasp at straws like this one. You are willing to find even the smallest "fault" or "sign of anger" amongst our responses.

Quote:
You're all like little children throwing temper tantrums, and what you did yesterday to Paucome was akin to taking your ball and going home!!

That's because he/she was spamming and acting like a troll, mainly. I must ask, why did you even come on here? You're spouting off insults and accusing us of being like kids, when you're the one who's complaining because apparently a theist came on here and got banned because of troll-like behavior.


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That's funny the only time I

That's funny the only time I insulted anyone was when I associated Insidium with being a nerd. I later apologized.

The fact of the matter is I cannot prove the existence of God much the same way that you cannot prove that our Universe just 'happened'. There is evdidence of the Big Bang, just as I say there is eveidence of God.

It's also funny that Todangst can post as much jibber jabber and fromulas as he want, and MattShizzle can spout off insulting profanities after insulting profanities, but someone posts some serious points that encourages good debate, and what do you do. Suspend Him.

See, you guys don't really want to discuss the issues. You just want to impress each other with how many theoretical ideas you know so your imature egos can grow.

But I know someday you'll all grow up and change your minds.

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Quote:That's funny the only

Quote:
That's funny the only time I insulted anyone was when I associated Insidium with being a nerd. I later apologized.

I am almost impossible to insult overtly. However, your refusal to address my points and posts seriously is far more insulting than any one-liner.

Quote:
The fact of the matter is I cannot prove the existence of God much the same way that you cannot prove that our Universe just 'happened'. There is evdidence of the Big Bang, just as I say there is eveidence of God.

This is a non-statement. You refuse to engage in discussion, or merely brush it off. Observe:

Quote:
It's also funny that Todangst can post as much jibber jabber and fromulas as he want,

In this post you have basically just brushed off all the time and effort todangst put into his post. This is a far more grievous offence than calling someone a nerd.

Quote:
but someone posts some serious points that encourages good debate, and what do you do. Suspend Him.

You are wrong. I systematically replied to every one of his posts in a neutral, dispassionate manner, and he did not reply a single time. Also, he started about 20 threads on roughly the same topic, half the time playing the victim, and being sarcastic (look at all his references to Rook or Dawkins as the atheist God).

Quote:
But I know someday you'll all grow up and change your minds.

This implies that we are immature and not on your level yet (since clearly we have not changed our minds). This is an insult. Your posts have consisted either of these underhanded insults, weak apologetics, or an utter refusal to argue your points seriously.

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dmiclock wrote:But I know

dmiclock wrote:
But I know someday you'll all grow up and change your minds.

Most of us already have, we used to be christian like you.

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dmiclock wrote:But I know

dmiclock wrote:
But I know someday you'll all grow up and change your minds.

This quote of dmi's seems like a passive-agressive attack.

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No, no, no. If you guys

No, no, no.

If you guys wanted to check grammar and word usage, and parse other people's comprhension of theoretical principles then you should have been school teachers. (maybe some of you are, but judging from the time of the posts it would seem that most of you don't even work - so instead of assuming that you live at home with your parents, I'll assume y'all are mostly students.)

I used to know everything too when I was in my twenties. Most of the ideas you pass off are not yours, they belong to someone else. You are simply spitting back ideas that you don't even fully understand. Here's the difference between us:

1. The scientific principles you tout have much evidence to back them up, but you cannot prove most of them. As much as you try, you cannot prove anything about the conditions of the singularity or the makeup of the universe before the Big Bang. No matter how hard you try.

2. The Bible makes some incredible claims, and one can say that there is equal evidence of Intelligent Design in the complexity of life alone. (Not to mention how finely tuned the universe really is). I, as a human can examine the claims of the Bible to see if they are true. I did and they are.

I'm not coming to try and convert anyone. I set out to prove your claims are flawed. Everything you claim about the origin of the universe is based on two desperately needed conditions.

1. The cosmological constant is not as fine tuned as it is.
2. There has to be an infinite number amount of universes

Later

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Quote:No, no, no. If you

Quote:
No, no, no.

If you guys wanted to check grammar and word usage, and parse other people's comprhension of theoretical principles then you should have been school teachers. (maybe some of you are, but judging from the time of the posts it would seem that most of you don't even work - so instead of assuming that you live at home with your parents, I'll assume y'all are mostly students.)

I used to know everything too when I was in my twenties. Most of the ideas you pass off are not yours, they belong to someone else. You are simply spitting back ideas that you don't even fully understand. Here's the difference between us:

1. The scientific principles you tout have much evidence to back them up, but you cannot prove most of them. As much as you try, you cannot prove anything about the conditions of the singularity or the makeup of the universe before the Big Bang. No matter how hard you try.

2. The Bible makes some incredible claims, and one can say that there is equal evidence of Intelligent Design in the complexity of life alone. (Not to mention how finely tuned the universe really is). I, as a human can examine the claims of the Bible to see if they are true. I did and they are.

I'm not coming to try and convert anyone. I set out to prove your claims are flawed. Everything you claim about the origin of the universe is based on two desperately needed conditions.

1. The cosmological constant is not as fine tuned as it is.
2. There has to be an infinite number amount of universes

Later

What part of we don't believe in anything without proof do you not comprehend? I'm well past my twenties which doesn't prove anything. I know that there are people much younger than me capable of coming to the conclusions I have. Everything I do know for sure is because I went to research it myself and didn't not take anyone's spouting for an answer.

Quote:
1. The scientific principles you tout have much evidence to back them up, but you cannot prove most of them. As much as you try, you cannot prove anything about the conditions of the singularity or the makeup of the universe before the Big Bang. No matter how hard you try.

So, this gives you reason to just say "God did it." Yeah that sure makes a lot of sense.

I speculate that your brain is made out of brick and all outward evidence seems to prove that to be so, but until I actually saw in your head I would not claim it to be so. I do have evidence of what a human brain is supposed to look like so I have to assume by this circumstantial evidence that your brain is also like other humans.

So just because you speculate the earth to be "created" until you really know you should not claim it and try to shove that belief down other people's throat. There is evidence that the earth came about by natural events. Stop lying to us and go read something. example: "I'm not coming to try and convert anyone."


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Martha shows here what I

Martha shows here what I have been observing during most of my time here in the Forums:

Reply to a post with lots of evidence of how you got an A in Philosophy 101 "Introduction to Logic" at the Community College, and never address the real issue:

I set out to prove your claims are flawed. Everything you claim about the origin of the universe is based on two desperately needed conditions.

1. The cosmological constant is not as fine tuned as it is.

2. There has to be an infinite number of universes to support the existence of this one, which suppoprts planet and solar system development.

The overwhelming evidence is that God Did It, not because I say so, because its true.

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Randalllord wrote: Most of

Randalllord wrote:

Most of us already have, we used to be christian like you.

Really!

Please explain to me what being a Christian like me is?

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So which "god" did it?

So which "god" did it?


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dmiclock wrote:I set out to

dmiclock wrote:
I set out to prove your claims are flawed. Everything you claim about the origin of the universe is based on two desperately needed conditions.

1. The cosmological constant is not as fine tuned as it is.

2. There has to be an infinite number of universes to support the existence of this one, which suppoprts planet and solar system development.

The overwhelming evidence is that God Did It, not because I say so, because its true.

Not only have I refuted every single one of your points thus far, but I have never claimed either of those two premises. You have failed to reply to my posts. You have also failed to demonstrate why one should infer god from observing nature.

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dmiclock wrote: No, dude, I

dmiclock wrote:

No, dude, I doubt it very much that you even came close to being a Christian! You're angry and upset because you cannot make sense of the world, and you're grasping at straws to find answers in science.

Let's all welcome the triumphant return of the There's No Real Scotsman argument!

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dmiclock wrote: The fact of

dmiclock wrote:

The fact of the matter is I cannot prove the existence of God much the same way that you cannot prove that our Universe just 'happened'. There is evdidence of the Big Bang, just as I say there is eveidence of God.

No. The evidence for the Big Bang is logical, empirical, tested and incontravertible. There is no evidence for your god. If you disagree, post it here.

dmiclock wrote:

It's also funny that Todangst can post as much jibber jabber and fromulas as he want

If you would only actually read and try to understand what Todangst posted, you would learn a lot and be much better positioned to discuss these issues. You appear to think that ignorance is a virtue. Not here.

dmiclock wrote:

See, you guys don't really want to discuss the issues. You just want to impress each other with how many theoretical ideas you know so your imature egos can grow.

Why do you think that havin less in your brain makes you more mature than us?

You are quickly approaching that state where responding to your posts, even to destroy them, gives you too much credibility.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
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dmiclock wrote:No, no,

dmiclock wrote:
No, no, no.

If you guys wanted to check grammar and word usage, and parse other people's comprhension of theoretical principles then you should have been school teachers. (maybe some of you are, but judging from the time of the posts it would seem that most of you don't even work - so instead of assuming that you live at home with your parents, I'll assume y'all are mostly students.)

There's a pattern in your thinking here that you might want to address: the propensity to make bad assumptions based on incomplete information. I'm 36 and one of my jobs is at a call center, so I have time to post between calls. My days off are during the week, so I can post any time on those days.

Keep trying to feel superior to us. I know you can do it.

dmiclock wrote:

I used to know everything too when I was in my twenties. Most of the ideas you pass off are not yours, they belong to someone else. You are simply spitting back ideas that you don't even fully understand. Here's the difference between us:

1. The scientific principles you tout have much evidence to back them up, but you cannot prove most of them. As much as you try, you cannot prove anything about the conditions of the singularity or the makeup of the universe before the Big Bang. No matter how hard you try.

Not one single person here, with the exception of you, has claimed to have knowledge about conditions before the Big Bang. It is up to you to prove, or at least show evidence, supporting your claim that goddidit.

dmiclock wrote:

2. The Bible makes some incredible claims, and one can say that there is equal evidence of Intelligent Design in the complexity of life alone. (Not to mention how finely tuned the universe really is). I, as a human can examine the claims of the Bible to see if they are true. I did and they are.

The complexity of life points in exactly the opposite direction from intelligent design. If life were designed by some superintelligent being we would expect it to be several orders of magnitude less complex than it is.

dmiclock wrote:

I'm not coming to try and convert anyone. I set out to prove your claims are flawed. Everything you claim about the origin of the universe is based on two desperately needed conditions.

1. The cosmological constant is not as fine tuned as it is.
2. There has to be an infinite number amount of universes

Later

Neither of those things have anything to do with our claims. No one here is making any claims about the origin of the universe. That's what you are doing. Our point is that no one knows the origin of the universe, including you.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
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dmiclock wrote: No, no,

dmiclock wrote:
No, no, no.

If you guys wanted to check grammar and word usage, and parse other people's comprhension of theoretical principles then you should have been school teachers. (maybe some of you are, but judging from the time of the posts it would seem that most of you don't even work - so instead of assuming that you live at home with your parents, I'll assume y'all are mostly students.)

I work 3rd shift.

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dmiclock wrote:Insidium

dmiclock wrote:
Insidium Profundis wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
I know what a theory is.

"a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. "

This is the colloquial usage.

"In science, a theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation."

source

Sapient:

This is exacly the type of thing I was discussing in my email to you. I pulled the definition of theory right from the dictionary and I still get arguments. "That is the colloquial usage."

Give me a break.

Dictionaries exist to provide the definitions of words. This includes colloquial definitions. Dictioanaries do not exist to provide rigorous philosophical explanations of how terms are to be used in certain contexts.

It is a grade school error to apply the wrong usage in the wrong context. We call this error in logic a fallacy of equivocation.

It is an even greater grade school error to justify this error by saying 'but it's in the dictionary!"

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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dmiclock wrote:I know what a

dmiclock wrote:
I know what a theory is.

No, you don't. Once again, you're spouting your ignorance.

Quote:

"a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. "

You're using a colloquial definition that equates 'theory' with 'hypothesis'.

Here's the actual definition of 'theory' as it is used in science:

A theory is a system of learned concepts that describe, explain, predict and/or guide us in how to control the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena, based on a preponderance quantifiable, observed data and supported by experiments that are capable of being replicated. A theory is a self correcting, self validating, functional method of knowing the world.

This is my standard response to ignorant theists:

The word "theory" can and has been used in false and deceptive ways. Creationists invariably do this, seeking to promote and exploit the common notion that a theory is a mere speculation and that the word theory is an antonym of fact. This is a farcical misconception. Scientists use theory to denote a structure of ideas, confirmed by preponderance of evidence, that explains a body of observations and thus explains some aspect of nature. Theories and facts are NOT mutually exclusive and mutually antagonistic. As stunning is this may come to creationists, theories and facts are complementary!: Theories explain facts, and facts support theories! Therefore, the rhetorical statement "This is only a theory" denotes a stupendous idiocy that can best be explained as follows:

Theories thrive in an ocean of facts.

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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dmiclock wrote: It's also

dmiclock wrote:
It's also funny that Todangst can post as much jibber jabber and fromulas as he want, and MattShizzle can spout off insulting profanities after insulting profanities, but someone posts some serious points that encourages good debate, and what do you do. Suspend Him.

Here's what's really going on: You are fundamentally ignorant of every topic you've tried to discuss here, and the moment you are exposed, you try to write it off.

Quote:

See, you guys don't really want to discuss the issues.

What a projection. You just tried to write off the actual discussion of
the issues above as 'jibber jabber'!

Here's the truth: You didn't have any idea of just how ignorant you are. You didn't realize how little you knew of each topic you've tried to discuss. And now that you've been exposed, you don't want to discuss the issues.

Quote:

You just want to impress each other with how many theoretical ideas you know so your imature egos can grow.

No, we want to illustrate your errors for you. And this makes you feel bad about yourself, so you're projecting again. You feel your own little immature mind being overwhelmed by the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. So now you have to turn to insults.

Quote:

But I know someday you'll all grow up and change your minds.

Another projection. Perhaps you'll grow up one day.

If you go on the radio show, I'm coming on.

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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dmiclock wrote:todangst,Not

dmiclock wrote:
todangst,

Not equating evolution with randomness.

Please elaborate on what the very basics of evolution are, or as you see them?

All Darwin proposed was the following:

1) Life is ancient - he thought it tens of thousands of years old, we now know it to be MUCH older. Darwin was correct.

2) Life on earth is related. This is CLEARLY demonstrated by biochemical similarity, protein and DNA chirality, etc. Dawin was again correct.

3) Life on earth changes by a NATURAL process called natual selection - again confirmed by experiment and other evidence. There's a reson some people are lactose intolerant, amoung thousands of other data points. Darwin is batting 1000 right now.

That's ALL Darwin really proposed, that's ALL evolution is. In fact in much simpler terms, evolution is simply changes in allelic frequencies between populations over time.

So, yeah, if you want to be willfully ignorant about nature, you may as well do so with somebody who understands nature to a respectable degree.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Yellow:I agree 100% with

Yellow:

I agree 100% with that assessment of Darwin's conclusions. I'm simply arguing the fact that natural selection is a sufficient enough process to allow for the development of the more complex traits and structures.

I simply believe that the probabilities are too high, the fine tuning too extreme, for independent speciation to have occurred via natural selection. What we see in the fossile record is organism existing according to specific kinds.

Darwin admitted so himself when discussing the evolution of the human eye.

Yes, I agree, we're all made from the same 'stuff'. Structures that work were used more than once. Functions that work were implemented more than once.

At the end of the day all the scientific data will conclude that our entire existance is complex beyond any natural process we can study or prove.

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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Quote:At the end of the day

Quote:
At the end of the day all the scientific data will conclude that our entire existance is complex beyond any natural process we can study or prove.

This is actually the exact opposite of the conclusion of the scientific community. Scientific data does not conclude anything; people do. And people who are scientists have concluded that it is possible to understand natural phenomena, categorize them, and utilize that understanding to make predictions.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


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todangst wrote: You feel

todangst wrote:
You feel your own little immature mind being overwhelmed by the fact that you don't know what talking about. So now you have to turn to insults.

I never intended any of my comments to be insults, and I'm sorry if they came across that way. I certainly do not feel overwhelmed either.

There have been just as many insults coming from the RRS end, but it doesn't bother me.

These are very difficult issues to address and even more difficult to express via this Forum.

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.