I'm just very curious...

richhanley
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I'm just very curious...

I am a Catholic...please don't hang me yet.  I'm not here to try to change anyone's mind because I know I could never do that.  I'm not here to try to judge anyone because it's not my place.  I just kinda wanna know everyone's thoughts on this.  BTW, I've used this with theists and atheists alike.  If it makes me feel better to make the sign of the cross across my forehead, chest, and shoulders why should anyone have a problem with that?  I have no issue with atheists at all.  I just feel like at the end of the day, if it works for you to not believe, or to believe in a Christian god, or Hindu gods why can't everyone just live with that?  Also, I know that some people will come back and say "Christians judge us and try to change us, so we have every right to do the same back."  I certainly think that's true.  I think you do have that right, however I just wanna know on the Atheist and Theist side, what people's thoughts are on this.  Once again, I don't want people to think I'm attacking anyone or trying to get a rise...I'm not...I just want some rational, logical, respectful answers.  Thank you.


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Welcome to the forums,

Welcome to the forums, Richhanley.  I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

I personally don't care what anyone believes.  If you want to believe in god, or various gods, that's fine with me.  You have absolutely every right to.

However, I do care when one person's beliefs affect the life of another person.  I care very much when people's belief systems make their way into our government, and our schools.  That is where the issue lies.

As an example, I see no reason why a homosexual couple should not be afforded the same rights as a heterosexual couple.  The reason they are denied this is because of religious dogma.  I have a problem with that.

Is that what you were looking for?  Hope that helps!

Again, welcome aboard!

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Hi Rich. Welcome. We don't

Hi Rich. Welcome.

We don't hang people here unless they start preaching instead of listening and debating. Seems like you'll do fine!

In theory, it ought to be fine for anyone to believe anything they want, but the simple fact is that any belief that you hold that affects me personally goes beyond that theory.

Let me give you a short list of things that religion is working towards in America:

*Teaching that the world is 6000 years old. In schools.

*Ending research into stem cells, possibly the most exciting and promising area of medicine for 50 years.

*Discriminating against gays

*Actively encouraging "the end times" by invading Iran. (I'm not kidding about this. Former Attorney General John Ashcroft is, and has always been, an active member of a group who openly advocates this ludicrous idea!)

* Abstinence only sex-ed, which has been repeatedly demonstrated to be the worst possible sex-ed for preventing pregnancy, HIV, and other STDs.

*Ending a woman's right to an abortion

In Georgia, where I live, it is illegal to buy alcohol on Sundays. Any idea what was behind the original laws regarding prohibition? Yep. Religion. It's still around, and keeps me from opening my bar on Sundays.

That's just a short list. Trust me. I know it's hard for a lot of Christians to understand that their morality is not, in fact, unquestionably the best morality in the world. It's not, though. Not only is it not the best, it's one of the worst in a lot of ways. There have been very clear, peer reviewed, verified studies demonstrating that the most religious countries are in fact the most immoral, based on things like sexual crime, violent crime, murder, teen pregnancy, and STD rates.

Here's the next reason that religion affects me.

In a recent survey, 63% of respondents said they wouldn't vote for an atheist for president simply because he was an atheist. You think that doesn't sting for us?

In another study, atheists turned up as the most distrusted and hated group in America, beneath lawyers.

So, if god really is a fantasy, (which, of course, I believe) then your acceptance of the religion, and therefore, your tacit approval of all the things I mentioned above, contributes to me being part of the most reviled group of people in the country.

Yeah, it affects me.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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richhanley wrote: I am a

richhanley wrote:

I am a Catholic...please don't hang me yet.  I'm not here to try to change anyone's mind because I know I could never do that.  I'm not here to try to judge anyone because it's not my place.  I just kinda wanna know everyone's thoughts on this.  BTW, I've used this with theists and atheists alike.  If it makes me feel better to make the sign of the cross across my forehead, chest, and shoulders why should anyone have a problem with that?  I have no issue with atheists at all.  I just feel like at the end of the day, if it works for you to not believe, or to believe in a Christian god, or Hindu gods why can't everyone just live with that?  Also, I know that some people will come back and say "Christians judge us and try to change us, so we have every right to do the same back."  I certainly think that's true.  I think you do have that right, however I just wanna know on the Atheist and Theist side, what people's thoughts are on this.  Once again, I don't want people to think I'm attacking anyone or trying to get a rise...I'm not...I just want some rational, logical, respectful answers.  Thank you.

Beyond the excellent points Hamby made above, there is the fact that theism promotes a worldview from which any action, no matter how contrary to ones natural moral sensibilities, can be justified. The only difference between the average Sunday or Wednesday church going American Christian and those who blow themselves up in Middle Eastern markets and fly planes into buildings is that the American Christian doesn't believe his god has given him the go ahead, or required him, to do such a thing... yet.

I'm not saying that the average Christian would ever believe that their god wanted them to do such a thing, but the mindset that it could be not only justified but moraly required is there. They believe that there is a being whom has every right to require them to do such a thing and holds their eternal pleasure/suffering in its hands as leverage. For me to simply accept, and thereby condone, that a vast majority of the population walks around with this highly dangerous concept in their heads, considering themselves special as compared to those of different beliefs, would be irresponsible.

It is the fact that theism is a completely unnecessary, easily abused and highly dangerous worldview that prompts me to do what I can to discourage its continued existence.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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thank you guys...I was just

thank you guys...I was just curious...In my own opinion it seems to me that alot of Christians have perverted what in my opinion began as a very good thing.  Christianity, in its purest form, is the same as any other religion or morality system...The basis of it is essentially just be nice to people...you know?  Don't steal, don't kill, don't cheat...basic principles of morality.  It seems that many Christians feel the need to judge others, whether their Muslims, Jews, Non believers, and I just feel like that is completely against the message they should be preaching which is judge that ye shall not be judged.  I feel like their Christianity is a major perversion of what it should be.


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Quote: Christianity, in

Quote:
Christianity, in its purest form, is the same as any other religion or morality system...The basis of it is essentially just be nice to people...you know?  Don't steal, don't kill, don't cheat...basic principles of morality.

What makes you believe this?

 

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richhanley wrote: I feel

richhanley wrote:
I feel like their Christianity is a major perversion of what it should be.

Spreading the ideals of "be nice to people" is great and I think more people should do it. These happy go lucky, mind their own business, respect the First Amendment, don't bomb abortion clinic, don't boycott poly businesses and ruin their lives...sort of Christians are always welcome. Granted, I still think they're worshiping their imaginary friends but who cares if they just keep it to themselves.

As hamby so painfully pointed out, it's the activist anti-civil liberty psychos that are the problem.  


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What do you mean what makes

What do you mean what makes me believe that?


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Why would I not  believe

Why would I not  believe that there is good at the heart of most religion?


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Quote: What do you mean

Quote:
What do you mean what makes me believe that?

I mean, how do you go through the history of Christianity and determine what pure Christianity is? 

Can you point me to a historical period when pure Christianity was practiced?

 

 

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Hambydammit

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Quote:
What do you mean what makes me believe that?

I mean, how do you go through the history of Christianity and determine what pure Christianity is? 

Can you point me to a historical period when pure Christianity was practiced?

 

One would guess never. Had Jesus existed, wouldn't the Gospel of Mark cause some serious issues?  In this gospel, Jesus gets pissed at a fig tree for not bearing fruit for him, even though figs were not in season.  You don't see a lot of turning the other cheek there.

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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ok, in which case, I have

ok, in which case, I have another question...which is .. what does an atheist believe is the point of religion?  If there really isn't any good at the heart of religion, and if my god doesn't exist, there must be a logical reason religion exists...so what is that reason?


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richhanley wrote: ok, in

richhanley wrote:
ok, in which case, I have another question...which is .. what does an atheist believe is the point of religion?  If there really isn't any good at the heart of religion, and if my god doesn't exist, there must be a logical reason religion exists...so what is that reason?

 

I think religion was invented to explainable the unexplainable.  It was also used as an early guide to living.  People would die from trychonosis, for example, so making it a sin to eat pork makes sense. Damning a woman to hell (or stoning her alive) because she had premarital or extramarital sex assures her husband that the children she bears are indeed his.  After all, his lands and assets would be passed down to his heirs. 

Why does religion still exist?  Because it is so interwoven with society and culture.  Think about how different the Western culture is compared to the Middle East.  Now think how differently those religions really are.  The same goes for Eastern religions. 

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am i right to assume then,

am i right to assume then, that atheists truly believe there is absolutely no good at the heart of religion?


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I wouldn't say that, but

I wouldn't say that, but we'd say it does more harm than good - I'd explain it is taking OxyContin for a mild headache.

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Well thank you all very much

Well thank you all very much for this...I got the answers to the questions I had...I'll probably check back on here every so often to see what else people think...but otherwise thanks for your insights and take care.


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If no one's said it yet I

If no one's said it yet I feel I should. No atheist makes claims for all atheists. Many are live and let live about religion, but there probably are not going to be many here that feel that way.

Quote:
am i right to assume then, that atheists truly believe there is absolutely no good at the heart of religion?

I think the heart of religion is myth and ritual, doesn't add too much good and the good that is added can be done in other ways. The problem is when it does bad even worse is when the followers think they are doing good or it doesn't matter. There is also the aspect of “you can't question this because I believe this.”


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I do appreciate that as

I do appreciate that as well...i understand that no one atheist, christian, buddhist, whatever can speak for the entire group so thank you for that.  Also, I forget I did have one more question...I know that as a Christian, I have questioned my faith...do Atheists do the same?  Do Atheists ever think..."Hey what if...?  What if I'm wrong?"  Once again, for anyone reading this...I'm not trying to attack anyone or change anyone's mind...I'm just rather curious and I just want some respectful and rational answers.  Thank you.


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I don't care if you make the

I don't care if you make the sign of the cross, pray, cast spells, do a rain dance or anything else, just as long as you don't try to make everyone else do it. You're free to follow your religion, just like everyone else who has a different one is free to follow theirs and people who have none at all are free to not adopt one. Treat your religion as if it were a private matter between you and the god you believe in, not a public spectacle.


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richhanley wrote: I do

richhanley wrote:

I do appreciate that as well...i understand that no one atheist, christian, buddhist, whatever can speak for the entire group so thank you for that. Also, I forget I did have one more question...I know that as a Christian, I have questioned my faith...do Atheists do the same? Do Atheists ever think..."Hey what if...? What if I'm wrong?" Once again, for anyone reading this...I'm not trying to attack anyone or change anyone's mind...I'm just rather curious and I just want some respectful and rational answers. Thank you.

When I was younger I tried to believe in god but it just... didn't work.  I read a lot about various religions to try to see if I could find the right one and eventually came to the realization that there wasn't a right one.  There was simply no god, which is what I thought all along.  There are times when I wish I was wrong (like when a loved one dies) but I simply cannot see any supernatural force existing.  

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richhanley wrote:

richhanley wrote:

I do appreciate that as well...i understand that no one atheist, chrI know that as a Christian, I have questioned my faith...

We have a different definition of how one would go about questioning ones faith. To question faith one would need to step outside it and apply reason to the question. "Is there any reason to believe in God?" one my ask ... but how they try to attain the answer is where the real questioning comes in.

If my answer to the question comes from what I am told by my priest and by society at large then it is possible that I never actually tested my faith.

I believe that to question what one believes they must apply impartial logic to the question.

Quote:
Do Atheists ever think..."Hey what if...? What if I'm wrong?"

Absolutely. And if we are using our brains instead of responding to emotion we will think about the question rationally. We will come to the conclusion that there is and never has been any evidence that superpowers and zombies have ever existed. If we apply the same question to other mythological creatures like unicorns we come up with a reasonable answer ... "what if I'm wrong about unicorns? what if?"

What is the logical answer to that question?


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richhanley wrote: am i

richhanley wrote:
am i right to assume then, that atheists truly believe there is absolutely no good at the heart of religion?

I'm not sure where I'd place this 'heart' which you refer too.

If we are talking about the spirit of religion or the true meaning of religion...that is the fault of religion for being so vague and the fault of it's people for using scripture to dominate all with different belief systems. There are more than enough examples of how the kind and loving 'heart' of religion has been used to marginalize and oppress innocent peoples. There may indeed be something good at this mystical 'heart' of religion...but you are swimming up hill if you want to convince reasonable people that it has ever been displayed as such. 

I'm sure that Hitler was a decent enough guy if you get all the way down to who he 'really' was. Judging by his actions though, he was a fascist fuckwad with nothing but violence and domination in mind. Good heart or no, his actions were quite descriptive.

I know it is generally a bad idea to compare things/ideas/people to Hitler just because of the emotional response it brings on, but it is relevant for this particular question.  


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richhanley wrote: I do

richhanley wrote:

I do appreciate that as well...i understand that no one atheist, christian, buddhist, whatever can speak for the entire group so thank you for that.  Also, I forget I did have one more question...I know that as a Christian, I have questioned my faith...do Atheists do the same?  Do Atheists ever think..."Hey what if...?  What if I'm wrong?"  Once again, for anyone reading this...I'm not trying to attack anyone or change anyone's mind...I'm just rather curious and I just want some respectful and rational answers.  Thank you.

For me the answer is no for the simple reason that there is nothing for me to wonder "Might I be wrong?" about. Most theists I have conversed with seem to have no understanding of the fact that I see absolutely no reason to question whether or not there is a god. There is no reason to ever think that such a 'whatever' is a possibility and therefor no reason to ever question such an existence. Personally, I amazed by the fact that people seem to believe in this thing when I can't even understand what it is they are talking about beyond calling anything which they don't understand 'god'. It is beyond my abilities to even begin to question whether or not I'm wrong when I can't even understand what I might be wrong about.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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wow...lol that last response

wow...lol that last response confused me for a moment...but i got it now...now i know this point has been made but i can't recall the answer...I have no real factual proof of any kind of higher deity...that is true....all of you in particular know this as it is what you spend a good amount of time saying...all I have is my own faith, however, you have no proof that there isn't a god.  what is the text book atheist response to that?


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richhanley wrote:wow...lol

richhanley wrote:
wow...lol that last response confused me for a moment...but i got it now...now i know this point has been made but i can't recall the answer...I have no real factual proof of any kind of higher deity...that is true....all of you in particular know this as it is what you spend a good amount of time saying...all I have is my own faith, however, you have no proof that there isn't a god.  what is the text book atheist response to that?

It confuses me when I go back and read it as well. Its this damned stream of consciousness thought process borderline insanity thing I do that often doesn't translate well, especially in text, but good to know you figured it out. You should be in there where that gets created. Its dark and crowded and, most often, really scarey. Anyway...

The standard atheist response is that you can't prove a negative. There is no burden of proof on the atheist.

My response is similar, but very possibly unnecessarily wordy. Proving that things don't exist is not the way one normally goes about determining what is reality and what is not. It is in fact impossible to prove that something does not exist and therefor not an effective method of determing what is and what is not. The only method that actually works is not believing in things for which there is no evidence, such as space beavers. Without evidence of existence to attempt to find evidence of non-existence is nothing short of non-sensical.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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Rich, I noticed you didn't

Rich,

I noticed you didn't answer my question about how you know about pure Christianity.

 Do you have an answer, or is it just something you kind of believe?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Sorry Hamby, I didn't

Sorry Hamby, I didn't purposely overlook it...i just thought that it was sort of rhetorical...anyway as far as that goes...I guess yes it's just sort of an assumption I have...however I've been brought up in the church and I am a firm believer in my faith...so yes your argument holds up...I don't have any real rational reason by your standards...but it's enough for me.  That's probably the answer that will get me hanged lol.  Sorry guys.


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We won't hang you, but it

We won't hang you, but it will be difficult to take your opinions as seriously.  No offense, but it's hard for us atheist types to understand why you theist types demand evidence for everything but religion.

I mean, damn... for something that has so much control over people personally, and wields so much political power!  I'd think you'd want to think it through more.

But then, that's probably why i'm an atheist.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

*Teaching that the world is 6000 years old. In schools.

Not possible.  If you read the Genesis creation account carefully, no measure of time existed before Day Four.  This puts the possibility of a 24-hour day in the crapper.  I don't believe that the Earth is young, and honest theists shouldn't either.

Hambydammit wrote:

*Ending research into stem cells, possibly the most exciting and promising area of medicine for 50 years.

The agreement/disagreement is when the soul enters the body.  Most, like myself, believe that it is at conception.  However, as I have been destroyed by more knowledgeable folks elsewhere in debate on this very issue, I have learned that they do not, as the religious right wants you to believe, farm these things for evil purposes.  They are usually the by-products of other things, and would be destroyed if not used for the stem cell research.  I'm not opposed to that, and I don't see why anyone else would be.

I'm a bit more progressive than other theists, I guess. 

Hambydammit wrote:
*Discriminating against gays

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.  Jesus ministered to the worst sinners of His time, and made them feel welcome.  I, for one, would like to make gays feel welcome at church.  They have every right in the world to hear the word of God.  Assuming that they're theists like me.

Don't ask me to expound on my beliefs further than that.  Trust me: you won't like them. 

Hambydammit wrote:
*Actively encouraging "the end times" by invading Iran. (I'm not kidding about this. Former Attorney General John Ashcroft is, and has always been, an active member of a group who openly advocates this ludicrous idea!)

I've heard that.  I'm not defending it.  The fact that it is completely wrong should be self-evident. 

Hambydammit wrote:
* Abstinence only sex-ed, which has been repeatedly demonstrated to be the worst possible sex-ed for preventing pregnancy, HIV, and other STDs.

Agreed.  It doesn't work.  Abstinence is a choice that must be made by each individual with the intent to honor God with their bodies.  However, most people don't make that choice today.  This means that other forms of birth control must be made available to stem the flow of disease and unwanted pregnancies. 

Hambydammit wrote:
*Ending a woman's right to an abortion

The best way I've seen this put was in the book Mere Discipleship by Lee Camp: What if abortion was a legal choice, but no one exercised the right?  Again, as I mentioned with abstince-only education above, and I will mention in response to another of Hamby's claims below, we choose to honor God on an individual basis with our choices.  Ending the legal right will not stop the abortions, but it will have a sharp increase in the back-alley or the coat-hanger variety.

I don't think either side wants to see that. 

Hambydammit wrote:

 I know it's hard for a lot of Christians to understand that their morality is not, in fact, unquestionably the best morality in the world. It's not, though. Not only is it not the best, it's one of the worst in a lot of ways. There have been very clear, peer reviewed, verified studies demonstrating that the most religious countries are in fact the most immoral, based on things like sexual crime, violent crime, murder, teen pregnancy, and STD rates.

Christianity hinges, as I've stated above, upon people making individual choices that honor God.  But all too often people don't know how to make those choices, nor do they even want to try to make the right decision.  Our sinful flesh leads us into the bondage of sin, and even though we may confess Jesus as our Lord on the surface, we don't believe it in our minds and do not live it out with our lives.

In other words, for any of this to work at all, we must be personally convicted and we must conciously endeavor to make the choices in our lives that Jesus would want us to make.  I know that that theory doesn't always translate into practice for me.  That is when the rest of the world sees me as a hypocrite, and perhaps that is an accurate label.

I can always ask for God's forgiveness and repent.  At the risk of learning something about myself, becoming a better person, and strengthing my walk with the Lord--assuming I'm willing to take that risk.  Smiling

But to enforce the Christian morality on someone who doesn't feel the personal conviction that I did when I first confessed Jesus is my Lord and Savior is a great recipe for disaster.  This is why making abortion illegal and preaching abstince-only education isn't going to work. 

Hambydammit wrote:

In a recent survey, 63% of respondents said they wouldn't vote for an atheist for president simply because he was an atheist. You think that doesn't sting for us?

I have no idea how I would vote.  It would depend quite a bit on the other candidate, and on each one's viewpoint on world events and what to do about current events that I see as defining their leadership.  If the atheist was a far more capable leader than the theist candidate, I would vote for the atheist.

A lack of belief in God doesn't affect someone's ability to lead. 

Hambydammit wrote:
In another study, atheists turned up as the most distrusted and hated group in America, beneath lawyers.

So, if god really is a fantasy, (which, of course, I believe) then your acceptance of the religion, and therefore, your tacit approval of all the things I mentioned above, contributes to me being part of the most reviled group of people in the country.

Yeah, it affects me.

Which is strange, considering we as Christians are supposed to love our neighbors.  I have nothing more to say, except that I don't personally hate anyone, least of all you, and I am sorry to hear that Christian majority does.  It shows that John Shelby Spong is right in saying that Christianity must change or die, but not for the reasons that he puts in his book.  Christianity isn't an exclusive club and we should be reaching out to gays, women entering abortion clinics, and atheists rather than publicly deriding them.

Reaching out to them, discipling them, and teaching them on an indvidual basis how to make choices that honor God--what we were supposed to be doing all along but are currently failing miserably at. 

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei


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Quote: Christianity isn't

Quote:
Christianity isn't an exclusive club and we should be reaching out to gays, women entering abortion clinics, and atheists rather than publicly deriding them.

Reaching out to them, discipling them, and teaching them on an indvidual basis how to make choices that honor God--what we were supposed to be doing all along but are currently failing miserably at.

Well, see, it's tempting for me to agree with you.  Really it is.  Except that I have read the science.  Being gay is genetic.  It's not wrong.  It's normal.  Having abortions is a good idea in a lot of cases.  And atheism is the logical thing to be.  And the question of life beginning, or the "soul" entering the body.  Bollycocks!  You guys are failing because your doctrines disagree with science.

But, your point is well taken, and I probably wouldn't be fighting as hard against your religion if it wasn't fighting so hard to make my life difficult.  If decisions like abortions and such were kept in the church and out of my laws, I'd be a lot happier.

I'd appreciate it if you'd bring all of this up in your church meetings.  I wish more people thought like you.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit
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Whoops... meant to also say

Whoops... meant to also say supporting the ban on gay marriage is discrimination and Christians are supporting it like lemmings.  Doesn't matter what you think the bible says.  The majority of your fellows think otherwise.

 Again.  It would be nice if you'd be an advocate for atheists in your church.  Seriously.  You seem pretty reasonable for a guy who believes that god got himself killed so that he could forgive us for being the way he made us.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Cory T wrote: But to

Cory T wrote:
But to enforce the Christian morality on someone who doesn't feel the personal conviction that I did when I first confessed Jesus is my Lord and Savior is a great recipe for disaster. This is why making abortion illegal and preaching abstince-only education isn't going to work.

I'm with Hamby, if you were representative of Christianity this would be a purely philisophocal exercise. Unfortunately you have a very vocal majority that seem to think you're off your rocker.

Without sounding like a dickhead (it takes a lot of work) would you consider yourself a popular fellow in your belief system? I am just wondering how this sort of super-moderate stance is received by your fellows.  


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One little note for

One little note for hamby...it's fine if you find it hard to take my opinions seriously.  that doesn't bother me at all.  Not a single one of my posts was meant as a means to change anyone's mind.  More than anything I came across this whole site on the internet a few days ago and I've never REALLY spoken with an atheist so I took the opportunity to ask some questions.  I am well aware that I'm not going to change your opinion and I'm sure you're well aware you're not going to change mine, so for me to try to do so would be completely pointless.


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richhanley wrote:

richhanley wrote:
One little note for hamby...it's fine if you find it hard to take my opinions seriously. that doesn't bother me at all. Not a single one of my posts was meant as a means to change anyone's mind. More than anything I came across this whole site on the internet a few days ago and I've never REALLY spoken with an atheist so I took the opportunity to ask some questions. I am well aware that I'm not going to change your opinion and I'm sure you're well aware you're not going to change mine, so for me to try to do so would be completely pointless.

(Even though this was directed at Hamby, I'm sticking my nose in, sorry!) I'm glad you've come to the forum, then. I really hope that you continue to post and ask questions. You don't strike me like a proselytizer so I wouldn't worry about it.

 

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richhanley wrote: ...you

richhanley wrote:
...you have no proof that there isn't a god. what is the text book atheist response to that?

My response is "you're right," just as I have no proof there isn't an invisible ostrich next to me, aside from the fact that there isn't one and I have no reason or desire to believe that there might be. 


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I'll poke my nose into that

I'll poke my nose into that question too, rich. You may not like hearing this, but there actually is proof that your god doesn't exist. It's in the word "supernatural."

Nutshell version: "Supernatural" is actually an incoherent term, and can refer to nothing. This isn't just a linguistics exercise. There's literally nothing in existence for supernatural to be. Therefore, anything that is defined as supernatural is literally nothing!

Christians define their god as supernatural. Therefore, it cannot, and doesn't exist.

The commonly held belief that atheists cannot prove that there is no god is true, but only in this form:

Atheists cannot prove that any possible god does not exist.

Individual gods? Sure. We can disprove them logically. Since logic is the description of ALL aquisition of knowledge, there's no alternative but to accept logical proofs when the validity of the syllogism and the truth of the premises are certain.

I don't expect you to believe this, but the primary objections you're likely to have are thoroughly refuted, and I'll be happy to direct you to some posts explaining it if you're interested.

For what it's worth, I'm thrilled to just exchange thoughts with you if you don't feel like an actual "debate." Don't feel obliged to refute what I'm saying. It's just something I figured you might want to know about us atheist types!

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
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