please defend, or reconsider, the RRS claim that theism is a mind disorder
Offline Beyond posting here from time to time and hanging out in chat, I don't consider myself to be a member of the RRS; so take this as my opinion only.
I think that skepticism should always win the day, and that beliefs not backed by skeptical processes aren't worth holding.
I think the RRS feels the same way.
With this in mind, I think the claim that theism is a mind disorder is irrational at worst and ignorant at best. As skeptics, in my opinion, you need to justify your claim with logic or you should abandon it (else you become sorta like those you attack).
My points on why I think your claim has created a rational emergency that someone should respond to:
1) Mental disorder has specific meaning in psychology and medicine. Just calling it a disorder doesn't make it so.
2) An irrational belief (i.e., delusion), by itself is not a mental disorder. Holding them might be diagnostic in deciding whether you have some real mental disorder. But, having the belief itself is not sufficient to diagnose someone with mental illness.
This is especially true of religious belief, wherein tradition, culture, parents, peers, etc, share in the same belief. Believing that jesus is god may be irrational (meaning not backed by any valid evidence), but it is not delusional in the same way that believing your toaster is possessed would be.
If culture one day spread the meme of toaster possession to the point of widespread acceptance, then the comparison would be valid. In this case, though, the toaster belief would no longer be delusional (certainly not itself a mental disorder); just irrational.
So, it's apples an oranges claiming that mainstream religious belief is just as delusional as toaster posession belief.
3) If theism is a mind disorder, then so too is astrology; so is buying a stock without having studied all available financial or technical data on the company. What about people who buy cars because of their color versus performance? What about the decades of literature on every-day reasoning ability, and how people just aren't born being rational (ergo, we're born being deluded, as we don't know the laws of logic or scientific discovery unless we discover or are taught them later?).
Also a mind disorder given your definition would be any type of belief or behavior based on satisficing a solution versus using an heuristic to guarantee the best outcome. For example, you leave an "ok" song on the radio, rather than scan all stations to guarantee you'll find the song you like best. Doing this is not perfectly rational; yet people satisfice far more often than they whip out a slide rule to reach some belief, conclusion or engage in some behavior. Falling prey to any of the many common fallacies (correlation and cause; framing; primacy / recency effects; insensitivity to sample size; regression to the mean; insensitivity to base rates; the gambler's fallacy, etc, etc) would make people mentally ill if your definition is correct.
4) Mental illness is abnormal by definition. If the vast majority of people do x; it can't be abnormal by definition; nor can it be a mental illness. You could say as a counter: if everyone raped, rape would still be a mental disorder! I agree, but that's precisely why most people don't rape / it's an abnormal behavior by definition.
5) Redcuto ad absurdum?
I'm joe, a college professor; published scientist; well trained in the scientific method. That said, I think faith is also a valid means of knowing something. I have faith that jesus is my god. I feel it in my heart. I just know it's so. I have no physical proof, but I still think my belief is correct.
How would you characterize joe? Does he have a mental disorder? Is it fair to label joe irrational? What if joe spends 90% of his intellectual life engaged in science and only 10% engaged in religious discourse. Is joe ill?
6) Many people convert to theism or atheism just by changing their mind after having read or experienced something. Are these relapses? If it's so easy to cure theism, can it really be a mental disorder? Is the mind disorder of theism as easy to cure as taking aspirin for headaches?
You do claim to speak only for yourself and not all heathens, but your acts and speech do contribute-- good or bad-- to how others view us. As such, my opinion is that you need to either prove that theism is a mind disease or stop saying it is. Do you have to do this? No. Is it something a rational person or organization would do? Yes.
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I wouldn't expect everyone who's ever prayed or believed in god to be a schizophrenic. But you can see how the tendency towards it is there and the idea that you could reinforce those tendencies seems very plausible. The general population would simply be reinforcing the idea that they can and are talking to a higher being. If you've got a tendancy towards schizophrenia or over active frontal lobes, then your prayer sessions might be doing a bit more harm than good.
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I forget which episode of the RRS show it was, but there was someone who was defending their belief in god by stating they and their family members had personal experiences that could not be explained naturally. His specific case revolved around his son, who effectively heard a voice in his head, that warned him not to go into the world trade center on 9/11. He said that god spoke to his son.
I would say, there's 3 possible options here.
1. He's lying and had a perfectly logical and natural explanation for why he wasn't at work that day.
2. god spoke to him and warned him to stay away, while allowing 3000+ others to die.
3. he's a schizo and actually did, or at least thought that he did, hear a voice in his head and decided not to go to work.
Really, I'd say #1 is the most reasonable answer. He's full of crap and is claiming divine intervention when he just didn't go to work that day. But for me #3 ranks way higher than #2 on the plausibility meter. Even with my flimsy premise, I think I have a lot more scientific evidence to point to my case than the case for #2. god did it. An all powerful supernatural being who created the universe decided to warn joe average to stay away from the trade center that day because he was a good christian.
If you assign something like #1 or #3 to the individual it makes sense. If you assign #2 then it brings up a ton of other questions with fewer answers. Why did god let it happen in the first place? why did god not warn the other good christians or muslims or whoever else who died that day? Did they not pray enough? Was it their destiny to die that day? Horrible stuff.
The 'No God Spot' article says there's more than one region of the brain that activates during a mystical experience instead of just a spot. This doesn't really affect the argument at all in my mind. It actually makes more sense. You'd expect it takes more than one part of your brain to conjure up god. Mix in a little self-conciousness, emotion and body representation along with a dozen other areas of the brain and eventually you're talking to the all mighty!
Ex-theists would or could have a little or a bad case of this. But I imagine they would have the sense to attribute the activity in their head to life. Not to the supernatural. We all do it to a certain degree. I used to get a bit of twang in my side if I yelled out jesus christ! when i was mad. But now I attribute it to old anxieties beat into my head from my catholic upbringing. It's my brain reminding me. A theist might attribute the twang to their conscience given to them by god. And ask god for forgiveness. Reinforcing the cycle.
I never pray, but I would say I'm as lucky as the next guy. My wants are answered all of the time. And many wants are not answered. I would bet I've got about the same ratio as any theist out there. I attribute something great to being in the right place at the right time, coincidence or chance or my own perseverance. I don't attribute it to god so why does he bless me with those experiences?
I'll agree that corrolating god belief to schizophrenia and epilepsy is pretty extreme, something to assign to the zealots and fundamentalists more than your average joe. But when someone says that god told them something. I don't think it's god. I think it's their brain. At the very least you could say religion deludes people into falsly diagnosing natural emotion and brain activity as supernatural intervention.
Here's the dictionary definition of disease.
dis·ease (dĭ-zēz'
n.
1. A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.
2. A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful.
3. Obsolete. Lack of ease; trouble.
If you take my arguments than you can put religion in the #1 category. A pathological condition of an organ, the brain, resulting from various causes (prayer, worship and other reinforcing behavior, environmental stress, jesus camp) as well as a genetic defect enabled through religious persecution characterized by an identifiable group of symptoms. Speaking in tongues, hearing gods voice etc...
If you think I'm way off base than religion still falls pretty nicely under #2. There have been plenty of arguments put forth on this site regarding the harmful impact of religion.
I feel it's also a bit of #3. Obsolete, and trouble.
- ZeeZer0
you know the person who started this post does have some education in psychology. having been a counselor myself, I agree with some of his points. I think in some cases theism can lead to mental disorders and in others it does not (unfortuantely the first category is way too numerous). but than can be said of many things. do some research on human pyshology before you classify an entire group of people (which is impossible to do b/c you don't know every member of that group anyway). that's all I'm saying.
I think Marcusfish covered it best in the opening. Susan linked some threads, but there are a few more that are more pertinent, I'm in too much of a rush to look. Try searching the site via google. Something like this, typed in google:
site:rationalresponders.com theism mind disorder
As simplistic as it is, just look at the definition Marcusfish posted.
- Kelly and Sapient posting together.
Atheist Books
Great work Dumpydooby.
Theism is defined perfectly under delusional disorder:
Grandiose Type: delusions of inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity, or special relationship to a deity or famous person
Welcome to the board. How bout you take the chip off your shoulder, stop being a jerk, and we can all be friends.
- Sapient
Atheist Books
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.
Atheist Books
I'd think counting the hits and forgetting the misses is more likely. Thats how psychics can truly believe they have special powers. With an event like 9/11 its not like we are going to hear from the people who thought god told them something good was going to happen at work that day. The same thing can happen with anything though. Joe gets sick, Joe prays, Joe get better, do the god dance. However Jim, Silly, and Bill might get sick, pray, and push up daisys. All I'm saying is that you can't say people are telling a lie when they believe that lie.
I know I'm coming in on this discussion late, but you shouldn't have admitted that the field of psychology was 'completely subjective'. You hurt your own argument by doing so, because that opens the door to people being able to twist and bend things. "Oh, it's not an exact science? Oh, it's just theories being worked through? OK then, so my point still applies!
BTW, anyone who wants an updated copy of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, you can pick one up off of Amazon. Then you too can have an e-degree...