The cancer lady. [locked]
Offline Was it just me or was that lady in the audience who kept pushing Kirk to answer her question a complete moron? He was trying to answer her, and she kept interrupting him and accusing him of avoiding the question which he wasn't doing. What a retard. Why did God allow cancer? The answer to that question is the same answer to why God allows any and all suffering to befall us. And Kirk was trying to answer that broader question, when he kept being very rudely interrupted. God didn't create suffering. He didn't create cancer. He created people with free will, and those people's decisions have caused all the evil in the world, including cancer.
The bible says that the world itself was condemned because of man's sin.
Granted that was a Christian-biblical answer to the question, but that is what was being asked. That question was being asked assuming God was real and Christianity was real. If that is true, then the bible must be the source of the answer to that question.
One angel originally created evil. Then one man recreated it. Evil is nothing more than disobedience to God. For disobedience to God to exist there must be some created thing with the ability to choose whether or not to obey God. That is why sin did not exist prior to the creation of angels. God did not make the angel sin, nor did he make the man sin. He only told them what to do and gave them the free will to obey or not. They chose to not obey. They have suffered the consequences.
That just irked me a little. And then I think I saw somewhere on this website bragging about the fact that Kirk couldn't even answer an audience member's question. Please.....Maybe if she would've shut up long enough for him to answer he could have.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Okay. Then this argument is no longer valid as evidence of the power of faith.
Please refrain from future use of anecdotal non-evidence to support your claim of being faithful to god can accomplish.
Musicdude you are talking right out of your ass.
So my conscience is telling me that I'm doing something wrong? You know my conscience? How can you be sure that it even exists and certainly how can you be sure what it may or may not be telling me? And which things is it telling me that I'm doing wrong?
You seem to know quite a bit that you have no way to back up with reason. Back it up Musicdude, your personal opinion and the ramblings of the bible are not proof. No matter how much you seem to wish that they were.
I was only refuting the very foolish claim that Jesus Christ did not exist as a human.
And no, there is no reason to think the historical facts in the bible are false, from a logical perspective. You are thinking in a 2007 sense. Fictional books were not written 2000 years ago. Writing a book at all was such a painstaking process, it had to be quite important material in order to make it to parchment, or papyrus or whatever. And for there to be that many copies back then, it had to be extremely important.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Really. Seems that's what you were operating on a few posts back:
Are we having trouble making up our mind?
What do we compare that against for accuracy? Can't I claim the Iliad to be historical for recording the Trojan War?
Sure. When you're arguing "christianity is right no matter what! Nope! Nope! Nope!", the bible tends to play quite well.
Ah, but you were arguing from "longevity" and "circulation" in favor of the bible. The texts I cited were merely to show you that such an argument if worthless-- and had nothing to do with the existence of christ. Please try to stay focused.
Do you know any people who died of cancer despite their faith? Unless every last person who has "faith" gets healed of cancer, I'm not interested.
Quite right. And since we are just another species of living things (have you read that science book yet?), there is no meaning of life for us either.
I'm yet to see a good indication that you have a clue about what you believe. You keep going back and forth: One moment you tacitly acknowledge that an omniscient god would have known in advance how we would have turned out, yet creates us anyway, then punishes us for turning out the way he knew we would turn out. Then you eventually you're back to arguing that we brought this on ourselves, and god had nothing to do with it. Take a stand for once and stay there.
Whatever the reason, the story ends with a bunch of people running around god's throne in heaven. god could have achieved that same end result without consigning others to eternal suffering; but god chose not to. Whatever god's reasons are, they suck.
Once again I was not talking about jesus. I was talking about the earthquakes and bodies rising from the dead. Those would be remarkable events in and of themselves, and would warrant being recorded. Please try to stay focused.
Yes, back then, they did.
Nothing new. That motif had already been used multiple times. The jesus story plays like a bad cover song.
Anyway, I'm really tired of arguing about this.
There are no theists on operating tables.
You're right I don't know that about you. I do know it about me, and most of my family and friends, Christian and other.
So are you denying it? Are you saying that you don't ever do things that you think are wrong? You don't ever violate your own conscience (or set of morals if you prefer)?
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
I don't claim to have official proof as of yet - this is just my opinion based on my readings.
Paul's Christ seems to be more of a mystical being to me with his crucifixion and resurrection happening on the spiritual plane rather than the physical. To me, the gospels were written to provide a human character for Paul's Christ concept because, like so many here, people needed something to differentiate christ from all the other Sky-daddies the'd heard about.
Paul's Christ, in my view, is also more of an interposing character coming between man and God where the Gospels describe a Jesus who is more of a bridge between God and man
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I couldn't say why the bible was originally written. Who knows. It was surely very important so someone, granted.
This proves what? That someone thought it was important enough to write it? Ok. And?
No, I am not trying to deny that I have done things that I do not think should have been done.
For the love of all that is make believe what is your point dude?!!?
It's like talking to a politician with you. You change your own argument as frequently as you change the support for it.
THis is not true.
Homer's 'Odyssey' was written in the 8th or 7th century B.C., and it is a work of fiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer
(Just so you know, when you make absolute claims they will be refuted.)
My conscience is clear - I don't do things I know are wrong "according to me." Perhaps some things I do are "wrong" according to you, but that's wholly irrelevant to me or my morals and ethics.
I'm wondering why we don't live in some sort of Terminator-esque anarchic society where crime runs rampant, if "everyone" does what they "know is wrong" all the time. Or is it your intent to claim that the only thing keeping us from such widespread criminality is people's belief in Jesus?
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
Are you serious? It was a figure of speech.
As a reward for accomplishing the real goal for which he created them.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Well, it certainly doesn't do much to support your theory that Jesus is any less a mythical hero-god than his predecessors.
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
Musicdude:"Oh, I guess that makes it false then. I'm a traditionalist. The newness of an idea gives it no extra merit with me"
Old ideas hold no merit with me either - that's the argument from antiquity (If it's old, it must be good).
The savior god motif has been used multiple times. You'd probably poo-poo Dionysus, Krishna, Osiris, Horus, Mithra, et al. (and you should). When the same story is told with Jesus as the main character, you accept it uncritically. Why is that?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
I can't yet. But God Himself will prove it to you, eventually.
Unless you wish to clarify, the bible is no more "substantiated" than the Iliad (which predates the jesus myth). Either start worshipping zeus or stop claiming that the bible is substantiated.
No, you were arguing from "longevity" and "circulation" in favor of the bible. And where did I make any allusion to the supernatural?
Go look up the definition of "focus ".
Neither does the survival rate from cancer. So don't bring it up.
Yes. Then I threw it away.
Observe how similar the DNA of humans is to mice (never mind chimpanzees for the moment). Patterns of fairness are well-documented in the behavior of lower animals. Provide evidence as overwhelming as that for a soul or that conscience is something other than biological before making your claims.
Many people have now stated the paradox that an omniscient god would know in advance how we would turn out. You haven't bothered to get beyond that.
The goal of running around his throne?
Can't get beyond that paradox, can you?
No...earthquakes happen, jesus or no jesus. People tend to write about them when they happen.
It certainly makes it less credible.
Anyway, I'm really tired of arguing about this
There are no theists on operating tables.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
I don't have to. He will prove Himself to you. It is not my purpose to prove God to you. You aren't saved by proof, but by faith.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Did the illiad predate the book of genesis, which was written my moses? Because wasn't the illiad a Roman faith, and Rome did not exist back then if I remember correctly. You are only referring to the new testament which is only 2,000 years old. But I don't seperate it from the old testament which is much much older. Jesus was prophesied in Genesis. God told Adam and eve about Him, right after the first sin occured.
I don't see how it has any affect on it's credibility for the better or worse.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Because I have been told by a higher authority, and I trust Him.
Originally to disprove evolution and the big shabaam.
There is no such thing as "religious faith." There is only faith. And for salvation to occur the object of that faith must be Jesus Christ.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Why, then, are you still here when we clearly reject "faith" as a rational position? Why waste your time witnessing about faith in a place full of infidels, when there are surely people more open to your message... like maybe Muslims. Hell, they even worship the same God as you do already, so they'd probably be even easier to convert!
Just be real careful... we militant atheists only bite Christians' heads off metaphorically; piss off some of those Islamic fundies and you could lose your head for real!
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
Muslims do not worship the same God as me. Allah is a modernized Chaldean Moon-god. I worship the God of israel. Go tell an israelite that they worship the same God as the muslims do and see what kind of reaction you get. Israelis can be a rough bunch too.
I did not come here to convert anyone, so the fact that no one has been converted is no reason for me to leave. I came here to see if evolution and/or the big bang had any legitimate, real proof. And people keep trying to drag me into theological discussions. I would much rather talk about evolution and the big bang. I know that no one is forcing me to keep coming back and posting in this thread, but I just have trouble dropping an issue that has not been resolved one way or the other, even if I know that resolution is practically impossible.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Not true, please review your original post.
I do not see evolution or the big bang mentioned anywhere in the text.
You have no prooof of jesus or of a god.
However there is substatial proof of evolution. So it would seem you are talking to yourself here.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Um, how far is the library from your house? Have you ever read anything that didn't say "bible" on the cover? After you read your science book, move on to a history book. Please.
Um....yeah.
I forgive you. And I don't need jesus to do it.
Are you serious? It was a figure of speech.
If you cannot see the similarities between humanity and other species, well, then you must have not read that science book. Go to your room, read it, then come back.
I'm with you there. We never need god or jesus to be moral.
But we have also dispensed with much which we once drew on, as new knowledge has refuted it. We should continue to do so, and not slavishly cling to the myths of the past. If we're devolving, religion is to blame.
Gracious to create us with the guarantee that some of us will end up in eternal torment? Did the definition of gracious change when I wasn't looking?
Because then it is just like any other recycled myth, like the flood story or sibling rivalry. You tried to play the unique card earlier in a comparison to mohammed, saying that jesus gave his life. So did dionysus, mithra and attis, long before jesus was a drop of ink on some charlatan's pen. Nothing unique about jesus.
Just quoting you from about 75 posts back. Thought you'd notice.
There are no theists on operating tables.
I don't understand the question. I have already said I do not believe there is such a thing as religious faith, therefore I would have nothing to deny. There is only faith.
Biblical salvation. Salvation from Hell.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
You do not have to prove creationism in order to disprove evolution and the big bang. You can disprove the scientific theories of evolution and the big bang without ever even discussing the possibility of creation.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Then do it. What's keeping you?
Or is this another Comfort/Cameron statement:
"I can prove the existence of God without using the Bible."
<Seconds of silence>
"The Bible says..."
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I will quote you:
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Evolution is not a fact any more than the bigbang is. If you say it is you are making a sematical argument. The THEORY of evolution that I'm referring to, where we evolved from another lesser species in order to adapt to our environment is not a proven fact.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
I have already presented two logical contradictions, one to the big bang and one to evolution. No one even acknowledged them or offered an explanation for them. Granted, transitional species and infinite matter are not new arguments, but maybe I have a new slant on them. You'll never know if you don't pick up the gauntlet that I threw down.
From what I've seen here people get their heads bitten off for bringing up arguments against evolution and the big bang that have been brought up before, and they don't even get a chance to show whether or not they might have a different take on them. So that is probably another reason I have been a little reluctant to bring it up.
If we are going to discuss that, let's please start a new thread, and let's keep it on subject. This thread has changed subjects so many times I don't even remember half of what I was arguing about.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
No, I'm claiming their god is make-believe and mine is real. There is only one real god and that is the God of Israel.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
PLEASE READ YOUR INITIAL POST.
It had nothing to do with evolution or the big bang.
Not true, please review your original post.
I do not see evolution or the big bang mentioned anywhere in the text.
You asked "why are you here" or something to that effect. I thought you meant why am I on these forums, not why did I start this particular thread. I came to the forums to hear the arguments for E&BB and attempt to disprove them. I created this thread out of frustration, because everytime that lady said "you aren't answering my question" it was like nails on a chalk-board to me. He was attempting to answer her question, but she wouldn't shut-up and let him. The bible doesn't specifically say why God allows cancer to infect certain people. So there is no specific biblical answer to that question. He was trying to give her a more general answer, and she wouldn't let him. But he still treated her with respect inspite of her rudeness and impatience.
This thread was a quick frustrated rant that has turned into a 339-post (and counting) debate on theism.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
I did not ask, someone else did.
If this is really your purpose then why do you refuse to listen to the explanations? Would you like to start a seperate private (email) discussion about these topics with myself or another member, or would you like to start another thread with specific questions?
If you state you are not here to talk about faith and this is the first topic you focus on it kind of goes against your original intent, correct?
Unless you can prove there was a jesus and /or a god you are full of shit.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Sorry, it's kinda difficult to keep track of who said what when debating so many people at once, and especially when certain ones start asking questions about my responses to others. Try to bear with me.
When has someone tried to explain evolution or the big bang to me? If that had happened, I would've listened. I'd rather discuss it here (not the particular thread, but on the forums) instead of in emails, becuase I'd like to get more than just one person's views on these issues.
If I start a thread about this, am I going to get bombarded with smartass statments condemning me for rehashing the same old arguments? Because if that's how it's gonna be, I'm not interested. If you (and others) can treat me with respect as someone who is seeking to take and give knowledge and participate in an enlightening discussion, then I'm all for it.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
I remember your statement about transitional species. I also remember it being roundly refuted.
The infinite matter statement I honestly don't remember seeing.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
You possibly may get bombarded.
Here is my suggestion, if you truly want to learn the science behind these theories look at the threads in this forum for evolution, and this forum for general science with many threads speaking about cosmology and the big bang. Get involved with a current discussion, keep an open mind, and ask questions. I must warn you, do not prostylitize or you will be bombarded.
Also, on this subject, try these links for more information.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bb1.html
Both may give you a head start on understanding the science.
Ok, that's officially the funniest thing I've seen all day. Someone who worships their imaginary friend calling someone ELSES imaginary friend make-believe.
That RULES!
Nice website. I took biology classes in high school and university, but since I choose to close my mind to it, I missed a ton of it. I'm thankful websites and resources such as these exist.
Musicdude, I know you believe that God has commanded you to "take your thoughts captive" and to not doubt him, but I challenge you to give into the mental temptation and learn about evolution with a truly open mind. This website would be a great place to start.
www.andyhanson.net
Thanks, I hope many others here will also find it useful. The topics are very easy to navigate and the information is presented in a very easy to understand format like this:
An introduction to evolution
The definition Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life.
The explanation
Biological evolution is not simply a matter of change over time. Lots of things change over time: trees lose their leaves, mountain ranges rise and erode, but they aren't examples of biological evolution because they don't involve descent through genetic inheritance.
The central idea of biological evolution is that all life on Earth shares a common ancestor, just as you and your cousins share a common grandmother.
Through the process of descent with modification, the common ancestor of life on Earth gave rise to the fantastic diversity that we see documented in the fossil record and around us today. Evolution means that we're all distant cousins: humans and oak trees, hummingbirds and whales.
Folks, you have roughly two to three hours to put any final parting thoughts into this thread before it is closed.
This is being done to afford everyone time to go read the topics in their thread specific places rather than trying to create a frankentein's monster out of this one.
It has been taken too far off of topic.
12am EST the thread is closed.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
You could just change the thread name to "Rantings of Musicdude" or something like that
Musicdude, all I have to say is, I know how you feel... I've been where you are, I grew out of it. The truth really will set your mind free. Take care.
www.andyhanson.net