The cancer lady. [locked]

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The cancer lady. [locked]

Was it just me or was that lady in the audience who kept pushing Kirk to answer her question a complete moron? He was trying to answer her, and she kept interrupting him and accusing him of avoiding the question which he wasn't doing. What a retard. Why did God allow cancer? The answer to that question is the same answer to why God allows any and all suffering to befall us. And Kirk was trying to answer that broader question, when he kept being very rudely interrupted. God didn't create suffering. He didn't create cancer. He created people with free will, and those people's decisions have caused all the evil in the world, including cancer.

The bible says that the world itself was condemned because of man's sin.

Granted that was a Christian-biblical answer to the question, but that is what was being asked. That question was being asked assuming God was real and Christianity was real. If that is true, then the bible must be the source of the answer to that question.

One angel originally created evil. Then one man recreated it. Evil is nothing more than disobedience to God. For disobedience to God to exist there must be some created thing with the ability to choose whether or not to obey God. That is why sin did not exist prior to the creation of angels. God did not make the angel sin, nor did he make the man sin. He only told them what to do and gave them the free will to obey or not. They chose to not obey. They have suffered the consequences.

 

That just irked me a little. And then I think I saw somewhere on this website bragging about the fact that Kirk couldn't even answer an audience member's question. Please.....Maybe if she would've shut up long enough for him to answer he could have.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Andyy wrote: High Pope

Andyy wrote:
High Pope wrote:

Losing your faith is a long slow and painful process, but well be here when you get back!

I'm with you on that one. 

 Timewise, it took me a good 3 years from the time I first seriously even considered my doubt as valid until I was able to say "I am not a Christian".

Painwise, it cost me a few friends, including my bestfriend. (they told me they were not to be yoked to unbelievers!)  I also have had to deal with crying family members on numberous occasions.  And of course my 2 spiritual mentors (of 7 and 10 years respectively) have both pretty much disowned me and refuse to talk to me, saying my blood is not on their hands. 

I appreciate your sympathy for me, though I believe it to be misplaced.

I also can appreciate the fact that standing up for what you believe in can and often does cost you friends and family, etc, for I have had very similar experience. Mine not so much because I am a Christian, but because I stand for the bible above religion and church tradition. That is an unpopular stance for Christians and therefore I have alienated myself from most of my former friends, and a lot of my Christian family. But if what I beleive is the truth, it is more important than any of that. I know you would agree with that last statement.

The way I understand the bible teaches if you were ever saved, you are always saved. So if you were then, you still are and always will be. Eternal life begins the moment you believe, not the moment you physically die. And if it has already begun and it is eternal, then it cannot ever be ended by anyone, not even yourself. If it could be, then it would not be eternal. So you can turn your back on God if you want, but as His child, He will never turn His back on you. This all hinges on whether or not the bible is true, of course. Time will tell, my friend. And I believe only time will tell.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote: If I knew

Musicdude wrote:

If I knew a bus was about to run over you, but you didn't see it coming, and you didn't hear it. And all I had to do was shout "hey, move out of the way" and you would look up and see the bus, and move out of the way. Knowing that a bus is about to plow through you is pretty scary information. Would you rather I not tell you about it, and let you be blissfully ignorant? Assuming there was no chance of escape, maybe you would rather not know about it. But if there was a 100% chance of escape, wouldn't you want to know about it?

But you don't see the bus. You're just reading an old outdated bus timetable that says there should be a bus there. But I look both directions as far as I can see and I see no bus. In fact, the bus system stopped running years ago. But yet you're still there at the bus stop yelling at me that the bus is coming! You're at the bus stop, day after day... waiting for your promised bus... rereading that bus timetable over and over and over. There's even a phone number on the timetable you have. You call it everyday to confirm the schedule, and, even though the number is disconnected and no one ever answers the phone, you still believe someone IS talking to you.

You keep quoting the timetable at me! "Hey! Get out of the street! The bus is going to hit you! Its 11:29 and the bus is arrived at 11:30!"

"Look! Open your eyes! There is no bus! You can't base your trasportation life on an outdated bus schedule!" I reply.

Musicdude fires back "But if you're right, and I'm wrong, then no big deal... but if I'm right..."

"Why do you believe that timetable... there is no bus company even running buses here?" I ask.

"But look at the timetable I have, it says 'Trinity Bus Company... Always Reliable!' on the cover!" Musicdude replies.

I then leave and live life. Musidude meanwhile is still sitting at the bus stop... waiting for his bus and handing out copies of the bus timetable. Warning everyone to watchout, so they don't get hit by the non-existant bus.


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Andyy wrote:Musicdude

Andyy wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

If I knew a bus was about to run over you, but you didn't see it coming, and you didn't hear it. And all I had to do was shout "hey, move out of the way" and you would look up and see the bus, and move out of the way. Knowing that a bus is about to plow through you is pretty scary information. Would you rather I not tell you about it, and let you be blissfully ignorant? Assuming there was no chance of escape, maybe you would rather not know about it. But if there was a 100% chance of escape, wouldn't you want to know about it?

But you don't see the bus. You're just reading an old outdated bus timetable that says there should be a bus there. But I look both directions as far as I can see and I see no bus. In fact, the bus system stopped running years ago. But yet you're still there at the bus stop yelling at me that the bus is coming! You're at the bus stop, day after day... waiting for your promised bus... rereading that bus timetable over and over and over. There's even a phone number on the timetable you have. You call it everyday to confirm the schedule, and, even though the number is disconnected and no one ever answers the phone, you still believe someone IS talking to you.

You keep quoting the timetable at me! "Hey! Get out of the street! The bus is going to hit you! Its 11:29 and the bus is arrived at 11:30!"

"Look! Open your eyes! There is no bus! You can't base your trasportation life on an outdated bus schedule!" I reply.

Musicdude fires back "But if you're right, and I'm wrong, then no big deal... but if I'm right..."

"Why do you believe that timetable... there is no bus company even running buses here?" I ask.

"But look at the timetable I have, it says 'Trinity Bus Company... Always Reliable!' on the cover!" Musicdude replies.

I then leave and live life. Musidude meanwhile is still sitting at the bus stop... waiting for his bus and handing out copies of the bus timetable. Warning everyone to watchout, so they don't get hit by the non-existant bus.

This bus is coming when you die. You will die. It is a known fact that 10 out of 10 people die. That is the bus, and statistically speaking, it will probably come around the time you are 75 or so, if you don't get hit by a bus before then. j/k Even the most staunch atheist considers God on his/her deathbed. Why wait until then? 

Again, you say all I have to say what happens after death is an old crusty book that was written by men. I ask you, what other book has had a greater impact on humanity, in the history of the world? None. So maybe it's worth checking out. I know you say you've already checked it out and found it lacking. Not everyone will believe. It's unfortunate, but true.

Like I said earlier, I hope for your sake you are right. Because if you are right, the worst that happened was I spent a lot of time trying to save people that didn't need saving. Nothing was lost. But if I'm right, much is lost. You really were in danger of Hell, but didn't listen, and eventually you will be there.

I don't want to see that happen to my worst enemy, much less moral good people (regardless of what they believe.) And the bible says that God doesn't want anyone to perish in Hell either. But it's not His choice. It's ours. He's done everything He can possibly do to save your life. You're on a sinking ship. God carefully made a life jacket, making each stitch and buckle. He then gave the life jacket to me to distribute among those who didn't already have them. And I tossed one to you. It is not my fault if you throw it away. And it's not God's fault either. Just like it's not His fault the ship is sinking, when we were the ones who cut a hole in the bottom.

Sorry, I probably over use analogies, but I think they often make better points. Anyway, I'm really tired of arguing about this. I am convinced I'm right, and you are convinced you are right. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors, even though I don't believe in luck. Eye-wink

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
You will die. It is a known fact that 10 out of 10 people die. That is the bus, and statistically speaking, it will probably come around the time you are 75 or so, if you don't get hit by a bus before then. j/k

This is hardly the issue up for debate.

Quote:
Again, you say all I have to say what happens after death is an old crusty book that was written by men.

Correct.

Quote:
I ask you, what other book has had a greater impact on humanity, in the history of the world? None.

Popular public opinion does not, in any way, make something good for us or true.

Quote:
Not everyone will believe. It's unfortunate, but true.

It is true, fortunately.

Quote:
Like I said earlier, I hope for your sake you are right. Because if you are right, the worst that happened was I spent a lot of time trying to save people that didn't need saving. Nothing was lost. But if I'm right, much is lost. You really were in danger of Hell, but didn't listen, and eventually you will be there.

People devote themselves to many causes: ending cancer, feeding starving children, freeing people from oppression etc. You also follow your cause, only yours is make believe.

Quote:
And the bible says that God doesn't want anyone to perish in Hell either. But it's not His choice.

Guy sounds like a putz. You follow around a putz like that?

Quote:
He can possibly do to save your life.

That's not very impressive.

Quote:
Just like it's not His fault the ship is sinking, when we were the ones who cut a hole in the bottom.

Right. Because the people that HE created ate from the Tree of Knowledge (note it is not the tree of bad things, the tree of torture, the tree of hatred ... just knowledge, wonder why that might be) which HE put there as HE already knew they would since it is all according to HIS design ... I'm pretty sure we've all read that farie tale.

Quote:
even though I don't believe in luck. Eye-wink

Why not? God got a plan for you? Even though he can do nothing to interfere with your 'free will'? Which is it, grand plan or free will?


zarathustra
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Musicdude wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

If I knew a bus was about to run over you, but you didn't see it coming, and you didn't hear it. And all I had to do was shout "hey, move out of the way" and you would look up and see the bus, and move out of the way.

[...]

This bus is coming when you die. You will die.

So you're essentially shouting "hey, move out of the way! A bus is going to hit you after you die!"

What you don't realize is that while you're busy shouting at me about the jesus bus, the Islamic Express or the Hindu Humvee could be about to plow into you.

Musicdude wrote:
It is a known fact that 10 out of 10 people die.

It is also a known fact that 10 out of 10 people don't rise from the dead. Or even 1 person. Even if his name's jesus.

Musicdude wrote:

Again, you say all I have to say what happens after death is an old crusty book that was written by men. I ask you, what other book has had a greater impact on humanity, in the history of the world? None.

False. Origin of Species, (among others) has had greater impact that any poorly assembled anthology of fairy tales.

Musicdude wrote:
So maybe it's worth checking out. I know you say you've already checked it out and found it lacking. Not everyone will believe. It's unfortunate, but true.

Unfortunate for the ones who do believe.

Musicdude wrote:

Like I said earlier, I hope for your sake you are right.

Don't bother. We don't need your hope.

Musicdude wrote:
Because if you are right, the worst that happened was I spent a lot of time trying to save people that didn't need saving. Nothing was lost. But if I'm right, much is lost. You really were in danger of Hell, but didn't listen, and eventually you will be there.

And if mohammed's right, we both go to allah's hell. And I hear christians suffer more than anyone there.  

Musicdude wrote:

I don't want to see that happen to my worst enemy, much less moral good people (regardless of what they believe.)

Then tell god to get off his high horse. If I'm moral, I still get punished just because I won't spit-shine his celestial posterior?

Musicdude wrote:
And the bible says that God doesn't want anyone to perish in Hell either. But it's not His choice. It's ours.

It was his choice to put us in this position. If he doesn't want us to perish in hell, he shouldn't have created us in the first place.

Musicdude wrote:
He's done everything He can possibly do to save your life. You're on a sinking ship. God carefully made a life jacket, making each stitch and buckle. He then gave the life jacket to me to distribute among those who didn't already have them. And I tossed one to you. It is not my fault if you throw it away. And it's not God's fault either. Just like it's not His fault the ship is sinking, when we were the ones who cut a hole in the bottom.

But he knew in his omniscience we would cut that hole. Why did he let us leave dock?

Musicdude wrote:

Sorry, I probably over use analogies, but I think they often make better points.

No, they help conceal that you have no point to begin with.

Musicdude wrote:

Anyway, I'm really tired of arguing about this.

I am convinced I'm right, and you are convinced you are right.

Yes, but I'm not using a wortless old book to convince myself.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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marcusfish

marcusfish wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
You will die. It is a known fact that 10 out of 10 people die. That is the bus, and statistically speaking, it will probably come around the time you are 75 or so, if you don't get hit by a bus before then. j/k

This is hardly the issue up for debate.

Quote:
Again, you say all I have to say what happens after death is an old crusty book that was written by men.

Correct.

Quote:
I ask you, what other book has had a greater impact on humanity, in the history of the world? None.

Popular public opinion does not, in any way, make something good for us or true.

Quote:
Not everyone will believe. It's unfortunate, but true.

It is true, fortunately.

Quote:
Like I said earlier, I hope for your sake you are right. Because if you are right, the worst that happened was I spent a lot of time trying to save people that didn't need saving. Nothing was lost. But if I'm right, much is lost. You really were in danger of Hell, but didn't listen, and eventually you will be there.

People devote themselves to many causes: ending cancer, feeding starving children, freeing people from oppression etc. You also follow your cause, only yours is make believe.

Quote:
And the bible says that God doesn't want anyone to perish in Hell either. But it's not His choice.

Guy sounds like a putz. You follow around a putz like that?

Quote:
He can possibly do to save your life.

That's not very impressive.

Quote:
Just like it's not His fault the ship is sinking, when we were the ones who cut a hole in the bottom.

Right. Because the people that HE created ate from the Tree of Knowledge (note it is not the tree of bad things, the tree of torture, the tree of hatred ... just knowledge, wonder why that might be) which HE put there as HE already knew they would since it is all according to his design ... I'm pretty sure we've all read that farie tale.

Quote:
even though I don't believe in luck. Eye-wink

Why not? God got a plan for you? Even though he can do nothing to interfere with your 'free will'? Which is it, grand plan or free will?

And your moderators would consider this post a very thorough response to my statements. I consider it pointless contradiction. It is a reply, but not an answer. And it is very antagonistic in nature. But it's ok to antagonize the theists, according to your moderators, even though they break the rules they are so quick to quote, and show partiality to the atheists.

 

If God told them not to eat of that tree, He did so because it was in their best interest. Whether they understood how knowledge could be a bad thing or not, it was, and they ignored and disobeyed Him.

If you bring home some groceries from the market, and put them on the kitchen counter, and among those groceries is a bag of apples that you haven't washed yet. And your 10 year old child reaches for an apple, and you say "no, don't eat an apple." You are telling him that, because you understand that they use pesticides when they grow fruit, and those pesticides can be very dangerous to ingest. So you want to have a chance to wash those apples before you let your child have one. But he doesn't understand all that. All he knows is that he likes apples, and he wants one. And he also knows that apples are good for his body, so he can't understand why his mother told him not to take one. So he decides that he knows better than mom, and he takes one when she turns her back. He gets poisoned by the pesticides, and then gets very sick from it.

The point is, the mere fact that he saw nothing wrong with eating an apple is no excuse to disobey his mother. He should've trusted her, and obeyed without knowing why. If he had done that, he wouldn't have got sick.

Man fell because of disobedience, not because he sought knowledge. If he really wanted to know about good and evil he could've asked God about it, instead of sneeking around and disobeying.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdud wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
And your moderators would consider this post a very thorough response to my statements. I consider it pointless contradiction. It is a reply, but not an answer. And it is very antagonistic in nature. But it's ok to antagonize the theists, according to your moderators, even though they break the rules they are so quick to quote, and show partiality to the atheists.

Please read the rules of this forum and familiarize yourself with them if you wish to continue posting.

Especially this one:

FROM THE RULES:

 

"The moderators are the sole arbitrators of the House Rules and pass judgment on a case-by-case basis. Community members can contact a mod if they think the rules should be enhanced or altered in some way."

"Should any issue be had with a moderator action, please PM one other moderator concerning the issue."

"Do not post your gripes about moderation of the forum on the forum itself, such action is considered to be akin to attacking the sites tactics, and shows a lack of genuine interest in mere discussion. Don't hold a grudge, contact another mod!"


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zarathustra

Quote:
So you're essentially shouting "hey, move out of the way! A bus is going to hit you after you die!"

What you don't realize is that while you're busy shouting at me about the jesus bus, the Islamic Express or the Hindu Humvee could be about to plow into you.

I'll take my chances.

 

Quote:
It is also a known fact that 10 out of 10 people don't rise from the dead. Or even 1 person. Even if his name's jesus.

Not according to the most widely circulated, most substantiated history book that has ever existed.

Quote:
False. Origin of Species, (among others) has had greater impact that any poorly assembled anthology of fairy tales.

BS. It hasn't been around long enough. Let it survive 7,000 years, then we'll compare.

Quote:
Don't bother. We don't need your hope.
Ok, fine. When you go to hell, you will deserve it. I don't hope you're right, because if you're right, life means nothing at all. Our lives nothing more than the vain pursuit of temporary self-gratification, and when we're gone the best we can hope for is that someone will remember us as we rott in a hole in the ground.

Quote:
And if mohammed's right, we both go to allah's hell. And I hear christians suffer more than anyone there.
  

Mohammed didn't give his life for me, neither did Allah. So I'd rather suffer in their hell for a just cause, than to slap in the face the one who died for me.

Quote:
Then tell god to get off his high horse. If I'm moral, I still get punished just because I won't spit-shine his celestial posterior?

And by "spit-shining his celestial posterior" you mean, accepting the greatest gift imaginable for free? Yeah, what a horrible thing that is.

Quote:
It was his choice to put us in this position. If he doesn't want us to perish in hell, he shouldn't have created us in the first place.

No it wasn't. It was our choice. Maybe you would rather not have been created, but personaly, I'm not going to hell, so I'm quite glad He created me.

 

Quote:
But he knew in his omniscience we would cut that hole. Why did he let us leave dock?

Because we have free will. And God did not create robots when He created humanity. He created free-thinking individuals who can make their own decisions.

Quote:
No, they help conceal that you have no point to begin with.

What is your point?

Quote:
Yes, but I'm not using a wortless old book to convince myself.

No, you're using a worthless new book.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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BGH wrote: Musicdude

BGH wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
And your moderators would consider this post a very thorough response to my statements. I consider it pointless contradiction. It is a reply, but not an answer. And it is very antagonistic in nature. But it's ok to antagonize the theists, according to your moderators, even though they break the rules they are so quick to quote, and show partiality to the atheists.

Please read the rules of this forum and familiarize yourself with them if you wish to continue posting.

Especially this one:

FROM THE RULES:

 

"The moderators are the sole arbitrators of the House Rules and pass judgment on a case-by-case basis. Community members can contact a mod if they think the rules should be enhanced or altered in some way."

"Should any issue be had with a moderator action, please PM one other moderator concerning the issue."

"Do not post your gripes about moderation of the forum on the forum itself, such action is considered to be akin to attacking the sites tactics, and shows a lack of genuine interest in mere discussion. Don't hold a grudge, contact another mod!"

Quit being partial, and I'll quit accusing you of it.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote: If you

Musicdude wrote:

If you bring home some groceries from the market, and put them on the kitchen counter, and among those groceries is a bag of apples that you haven't washed yet. And your 10 year old child reaches for an apple, and you say "no, don't eat an apple." You are telling him that, because you understand that they use pesticides when they grow fruit, and those pesticides can be very dangerous to ingest. So you want to have a chance to wash those apples before you let your child have one. But he doesn't understand all that. All he knows is that he likes apples, and he wants one. And he also knows that apples are good for his body, so he can't understand why his mother told him not to take one. So he decides that he knows better than mom, and he takes one when she turns her back. He gets poisoned by the pesticides, and then gets very sick from it.

I'll change the story a bit to make it more analagous to creation account in the Bible...

 You bring back a box of cookies from the store.  Your hungry kid  and sees it, for you placed it in the middle of the room, and opened the box so all could see.  Wanting to test your kid's obedience, you dip the cookies in poison.  You tell him not to eat them, then you leave the room, telling him if he gets hungry to eat some brocolli instead.

Unsurprisingly, he eats the cookies.  You then proceed to poison every other kid you will ever have in the future, and all your kid's friends and pets for all eternity. (because your kid ate the cookie!)  But in your eternal kindness, you cut your hand off and tell your kid and his friend's that if they thank you for cutting your hand off, you'll give them the antidote for the poison.


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Why are you guys even

Why are you guys even bothering to reply to him still?

 

You've proven him wrong countless times and he's still asserting the same junk on the last page that he did on the first. 


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Andyy wrote:Musicdude

Andyy wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

If you bring home some groceries from the market, and put them on the kitchen counter, and among those groceries is a bag of apples that you haven't washed yet. And your 10 year old child reaches for an apple, and you say "no, don't eat an apple." You are telling him that, because you understand that they use pesticides when they grow fruit, and those pesticides can be very dangerous to ingest. So you want to have a chance to wash those apples before you let your child have one. But he doesn't understand all that. All he knows is that he likes apples, and he wants one. And he also knows that apples are good for his body, so he can't understand why his mother told him not to take one. So he decides that he knows better than mom, and he takes one when she turns her back. He gets poisoned by the pesticides, and then gets very sick from it.

I'll change the story a bit to make it more analagous to creation account in the Bible...

 You bring back a box of cookies from the store.  Your hungry kid  and sees it, for you placed it in the middle of the room, and opened the box so all could see.  Wanting to test your kid's obedience, you dip the cookies in poison.  You tell him not to eat them, then you leave the room, telling him if he gets hungry to eat some brocolli instead.

Unsurprisingly, he eats the cookies.  You then proceed to poison every other kid you will ever have in the future, and all your kid's friends and pets for all eternity. (because your kid ate the cookie!)  But in your eternal kindness, you cut your hand off and tell your kid and his friend's that if they thank you for cutting your hand off, you'll give them the antidote for the poison.

That analogy falls short, because it assumes what is not known. It is based on the same thing I was saying in my analogy. You assume that was unfair, because you do not know what God knows. To the child, the mother withholding the apple seemed unfair too, but he didn't realize it was for his own good. Therefore you decide to disobey because you think you know better than Him. That is 100% unadulterated, pure arrogance and resulting disobedience. Just because there was a possibility of sinning, doesn't make it ok for you to sin. The only way God could gaurantee mankind would never sin, is if He never gave mankind any mandates, and never told mankind what is right behavior. He basically would just have to leave mankind alone and never have a relationship with him at all. What would be the point in even creating man, if that were the case? There were other possibilities for sin prior to the tree. God commanded Adam to name all the animals. What if he had said "no?" That woudl've been the first sin, instead of the tree. God created mankind because of the ones who would obey, not because of the ones who would disobey. He had hopes that all would obey, but knowledge that they wouldn't. The fact that some would disobey did not justify not creating mankind. He had a purpose for man, and that purpose is being accomplished by the ones who obey him.

Just as your child doesn't have to understand why you gave them a command to obey. You don't have to understand God's laws in order to obey them. If you truly wanted knowledge, why not ask God, instead of going behind his back?

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Maragon wrote: Why are you

Maragon wrote:

Why are you guys even bothering to reply to him still?

 

You've proven him wrong countless times and he's still asserting the same junk on the last page that he did on the first.

I've never been a part of a thread that has reached 300 posts. Smiling 


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Andyy wrote: Maragon

Andyy wrote:
Maragon wrote:

Why are you guys even bothering to reply to him still?

 

You've proven him wrong countless times and he's still asserting the same junk on the last page that he did on the first.

I've never been a part of a thread that has reached 300 posts. Smiling 

Most of my threads end up that way. On most of the forums I talk on. Especially the christian forums, which often get much more heated than this one so far.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
I consider it pointless contradiction. It is a reply, but not an answer.

Answer to what?

Quote:
And it is very antagonistic in nature.

Honestly, that's because I think you're broken.

Quote:
If you bring home some groceries from the market, and put them on the kitchen counter, and among those groceries is a bag of apples that you haven't washed yet. And your 10 year old child reaches for an apple, and you say "no, don't eat an apple." You are telling him that, because you understand that they use pesticides when they grow fruit, and those pesticides can be very dangerous to ingest. So you want to have a chance to wash those apples before you let your child have one. But he doesn't understand all that. All he knows is that he likes apples, and he wants one. And he also knows that apples are good for his body, so he can't understand why his mother told him not to take one. So he decides that he knows better than mom, and he takes one when she turns her back. He gets poisoned by the pesticides, and then gets very sick from it.

The point is, the mere fact that he saw nothing wrong with eating an apple is no excuse to disobey his mother. He should've trusted her, and obeyed without knowing why. If he had done that, he wouldn't have got sick.

I see. So God is no more powerful or all knowing than the common homemaker? That's the first I've ever heard of that one.

Quote:
Man fell because of disobedience, not because he sought knowledge. If he really wanted to know about good and evil he could've asked God about it, instead of sneeking around and disobeying.

Those bastards. How dare they behave according to their mental and emotional make up ... which god created for them. 

 


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marcusfish wrote:Those

marcusfish wrote:

Those bastards. How dare they behave according to their mental and emotional make up ... which god created for them. 

So you're saying that because of human nature, we lack the ability to obey authority, or to resist temptation and give deference to someone who is greater than us and more knowledgeable? I disagree.

Because we are human only means that we have the ability to disobey, but it doesn't mean that we must disobey. The choice is ours every single time.

I've seen children who fit the description of my analogy. And they would've taken the apple as soon as their mother turned her back. But I've known other types of children who would've obeyed. And the mother could've left the room, or even left the house and they still wouldn't take an apple. Both of those children are 100% human, and the same equal temptation was present for both of them. One of them has authority-orientation, and the other does not. But even the one who obeyed, did so by choice, not because he had to.

Quote:
I see. So God is no more powerful or all knowing than the common homemaker? That's the first I've ever heard of that one.

What has God's power or knowledge got to do with this? This is about man, not God. If God had stepped in and cut the tree down so man couldn't have eaten from it, guess what? Later there would've been another temptation, and he would've had to prevent that one two. And even if He sucessfully prevented Adam and Eve from ever sinning, now He has to do the same for their kids, and their kids. Where does it end? Did God create humanity so He could be the holy baby-sitter? And besides, as Jesus pointed out on a couple of occaisions, it's not the act of sinning that constitutes sin. It is the desire, or thought. If Adam wanted to take an apple, and decided to take it, at that point he had already sinned. So God cutting the tree down would not prevent Adam from sinning. The only thing that would prevent that is to control Adam's mind. In other words make humans nothing more than robots, or puppets. Is that really what you would prefer? That God controlled your every thought and decision?

He created us for a reason, and that reason required free-thinking sentient beings. Puppets and robots couldn't have got the job done.

You say it's His fault for creating us weak and feeble-minded, emotionally unstable humans, and that is why it's not our fault when we sin. God also created the angels. And they were much more powerful and intelligent than us. And guess what? The greatest angel He ever created sinned against Him, and a thirds of all the other angels sinned with him.

So does sin really have anything to do with our nature? No. It's got to do with beings who are not God, being associated with the God. His perfection reveals our short-comings. But it was necessary and inevitable that they and we would sin. That is why before He ever created us He already had a plan to make it possible for us sinners to still have a relationship with Him. But He doesn't force anyone to do that. He did not force us to sin, and therefore He's not going to force us to repent. God has always been there, extending a hand of fellowship to us. He has never taken that away from us. We walked away from Him. And we have to walk back. Unfortunately when we left, we created a huge canyon between us. And the only way back is to cross the Jesus bridge.

Before He made that sacrifice for us, there was no bridge and therefore no hope of coming back to God.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude, you're a strange

Musicdude, you're a strange fellow. You do realize that you keep quoting bible verses to atheists right? I mean, we don't believe that any of it has any worth, yet you keep using it as your 'proof'.

You do realize how odd that is don't you?

Quote:
So you're saying that because of human nature, we lack the ability to obey authority, or to resist temptation and give deference to someone who is greater than us and more knowledgeable? I disagree.

You went pretty far off of the mark with that one. I am saying no such thing. One (not that it matters) I do not believe in the idea of 'human nature', it is a religious creation based on the belief in god (and I'm an atheist, dunno if you've noticed). Two I was CLEARLY referrencing the nonsense story that you keep quoting regarding this idiotic original sin. YOU claim that god created us dude, not me. YOU claim that god created man and all of his attributes, including his emotions, intellect, physiology, the whole shabang ... THEN your god character creates a tree of knowledge (and we do not taste of knowledge in religion, right?) JUST so that they don't eat from it. What? He created them, provided them with the opportunity to go against his will, and knowing full well that they would sample the knowledge (oh no's) he STILL damned them for all time.

I'm just saying ... DUDE! Do you actually believe this shit!?!!?! I mean, do you ACTUALLY believe this stuff?

By the way you are holding the bible as proof of it's own truth. There is no evidence of any kind that this is the case. Stop using the book as evidence of it's own truth because you make yourself look like a dumb ass.  


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Musicdude wrote: Quote: I

Musicdude wrote:
Quote:
I see. So God is no more powerful or all knowing than the common homemaker? That's the first I've ever heard of that one.

What has God's power or knowledge got to do with this?

 

Huh? Everything. The assertion that there is a superwizard called God is at the very center of the argument.

Quote:
If God had stepped in and cut the tree down so man couldn't have eaten from it, guess what? Later there would've been another temptation

Which (in your story) God would have also created. You aren't connecting at all with what I'm saying. I think I'll let this point drop since you seem to have your god blinders on.

Quote:
And even if He sucessfully prevented Adam and Eve from ever sinning, now He has to do the same for their kids, and their kids. Where does it end?

God can't keep up? I dunno dude, you created this character, you tell ME why he didn't just protect his own creation from his own creation.

Quote:
Did God create humanity so He could be the holy baby-sitter?

I couldn't say, but I'm sure you know the answer since your people created him.

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And besides, as Jesus pointed out on a couple of occaisions, it's not the act of sinning that constitutes sin.

Again quoting a source that asserts magic as being real. There has never been any evidence that your bible magic is anything but the ramblings of maniacle old men.

Quote:
In other words make humans nothing more than robots, or puppets. Is that really what you would prefer? That God controlled your every thought and decision?

Ok, I think I'm starting to get the picture. You actually don't understand that you are on an atheist board. Dude, I think this stuff is nonsense. I promote that anyone with a brain that functions on at least half of its cylinders would come to the same conclusion.  

[qutoe]He created us for a reason, and that reason required free-thinking sentient beings. Puppets and robots couldn't have got the job done.

I don't have any reason other than your personal opinion to believe any of this twaddle.  

Quote:
You say it's His fault for creating us weak and feeble-minded, emotionally unstable humans, and that is why it's not our fault when we sin.

No, crazy person, YOU say this. I am just pointing it out.

Quote:
And guess what? The greatest angel He ever created sinned against Him, and a thirds of all the other angels sinned with him.

Your uber powerful creator sounds like a dolt.  

Quote:
God has always been there, extending a hand of fellowship to us.

So sayith you.

Quote:
And the only way back is to cross the Jesus bridge.

Before He made that sacrifice for us, there was no bridge and therefore no hope of coming back to God.

Uh huh. And you can prove or logically deduce this how? 


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marcusfish

marcusfish wrote:

Musicdude, you're a strange fellow. You do realize that you keep quoting bible verses to atheists right? I mean, we don't believe that any of it has any worth, yet you keep using it as your 'proof'.

You do realize how odd that is don't you?

Quote:
So you're saying that because of human nature, we lack the ability to obey authority, or to resist temptation and give deference to someone who is greater than us and more knowledgeable? I disagree.

You went pretty far off of the mark with that one. I am saying no such thing. One (not that it matters) I do not believe in the idea of 'human nature', it is a religious creation based on the belief in god (and I'm an atheist, dunno if you've noticed). Two I was CLEARLY referrencing the nonsense story that you keep quoting regarding this idiotic original sin. YOU claim that god created us dude, not me. YOU claim that god created man and all of his attributes, including his emotions, intellect, physiology, the whole shabang ... THEN your god character creates a tree of knowledge (and we do not taste of knowledge in religion, right?) JUST so that they don't eat from it. What? He created them, provided them with the opportunity to go against his will, and knowing full well that they would sample the knowledge (oh no's) he STILL damned them for all time.

I'm just saying ... DUDE! Do you actually believe this shit!?!!?! I mean, do you ACTUALLY believe this stuff?

By the way you are holding the bible as proof of it's own truth. There is no evidence of any kind that this is the case. Stop using the book as evidence of it's own truth because you make yourself look like a dumb ass.  

Then for God's sake, stop arguing with me about the details or fairness of the stupid tree, or how it was unfair for God to tell them not to eat from it. None of that crap even happened according to you, so what difference does it make if it was fair or not?

You get upset with me for substantiating my beliefs with the bible, but you are doing as much to perpetuate that argument as I am. Everytime you attack the integrity of a God who you don't believe exists, you go further down that path, and gripe at me for doing the same thing.

 If God doesn't exist, it doesn't matter if what Christian's claim that He did for or to humanity was fair or not. And if He really does exist, trying to prove that He isn't fair does absolutely nothing toward proving He doesn't exist.

 There have been lots of people throughout history that believed in unfair gods. Try convincing them that God doesn't exist on the basis that he isn't fair. They would be the first to tell you he isn't fair. But that's just the way he is. Not approving of his justice methods does not negate his existence.

When you say God is unfair, or God is a tyrant, you are admitting that He exists. When you use His name as profanity, you are admitting He exists. Do you believe He is a bad guy, or do you believe He is a fairy-tale? Because you can't have it both ways.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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marcusfish wrote:Again

marcusfish wrote:

Again quoting a source that asserts magic as being real. There has never been any evidence that your bible magic is anything but the ramblings of maniacle old men.

So because you weren't alive to see it with your own eyes means it didn't happen? I guess the earth doesn't exist then since you weren't there to see it come into being. There was no revolutionary war, because you weren't there. No Boston tea party either. No civil war, if you ignore everything you did not personally experience or see. There were a ton of signs that Jesus was exactly who He claimed to be. And lots of people saw them, because He did them in public places. The people of the time who did not believe Him, attributed His miracles to the devil or demons, or magic. But they had to come up with some rationalization, because He made things happen that were impossible. They did see those things with their own two eyes, and didn't have the luxury of simply ignoring it or pretending it didn't happen, as you do. If you want to discount historical records as being accurate and only base your understanding of the world on your personal experience, then there are a lot more books that need to be thrown out with the bible.

Every historical record is biased. If my history book in school tells me that FDR was an american president, that is a fact. If it tells me that he did a lot of good for America, that is an opinion. So should we throw the book completely out, and ignore the factual historical information, just because it makes some biased statements? But that is exactly what you do. It is a very convenient way of ignoring historical facts in order to attack the validity of Christianity. You're not only saying that Jesus was not a savior of mankind. You're saying He never even existed. You're saying that the most substantiated history book that has ever existed should be completely ignored, because it asserts some ideas you disagree with. All the facts should be ignored, because you disagree with the opinions. But we don't do that with other historical books, do we? Do we throw out Socrates' writings because they interject their opinions among the facts? Of course not. But they are proponents of philosophy, and philosophy though you may not agree entirely with their ideas does not offend you, so it's ok.

If we found an ancient tablet buried in a pyramid in Egypt and were able to translate it, and it talked all about a ruler who ruled back then. It told of his life, and character and how he was loved by the people, etc. Would we have any reason to doubt it? I mean sure, it's probably a little biased. I'm sure not everyone thought he was a good ruler. But would we question the fact that he did exist, and that he did rule? No. And that is with one copy of this tablet. Let's say we found thousands of copies of this same tablet spread all over the world. Wouldn't that lend even a far greater credibility to it's accuracy. You still might not agree with the opinions stated in this tablet, but it would be hard to deny the facts.

 

To deny that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and saved mankind from thier sins is a perfectly rationale sentiment. But to deny that he existed, and was a jew, and walked around claiming to be the son of God, and performed what everyone around considered to be miraculous works, is ignorance and quite foolish.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude

Musicdude wrote:
Quote:

 

What you don't realize is that while you're busy shouting at me about the jesus bus, the Islamic Express or the Hindu Humvee could be about to plow into you.

I'll take my chances.

And I'll take mine. By any unbiased analysis, my chances are better.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
It is also a known fact that 10 out of 10 people don't rise from the dead. Or even 1 person. Even if his name's jesus.

Not according to the most widely circulated, most substantiated history book that has ever existed.

Which book would that be? Surely you don't mean the bible, which despite wide circulation, is neither history nor substantiated.

Musicdude wrote:

BS. It hasn't been around long enough. Let it survive 7,000 years, then we'll compare.

The theory of evolution will survive long after christianity has been put out to pasture. Take care to note that evolutionary theory has advanced humanity further in less than two centuries than has christianity over the course of two millennia.

Musicdude wrote:
k, fine. When you go to hell, you will deserve it.

Well, good. Wouldn't want to be one of those god sends to hell even when they don't deserve it.

Musicdude wrote:
I don't hope you're right, because if you're right, life means nothing at all. Our lives nothing more than the vain pursuit of temporary self-gratification, and when we're gone the best we can hope for is that someone will remember us as we rott in a hole in the ground.

Why does life have to have any meaning? And I'm really not worried whether someone remembers me after I die. There just might be some carpenter named jesus rotting in the ground, who died hoping someone would remember him -- but not me.

Musicdude wrote:

Mohammed didn't give his life for me, neither did Allah. So I'd rather suffer in their hell for a just cause, than to slap in the face the one who died for me.

The "give his life for you" line is just a cheap ploy to get sympathy. It's one of the oldest religious tricks in the book.

Musicdude wrote:

And by "spit-shining his celestial posterior" you mean, accepting the greatest gift imaginable for free? Yeah, what a horrible thing that is.

"greatest gift imaginable"? I can imagine a much greater gift. How about just sending us all straight to the enternal bliss of heaven, without having to sit through all this B-grade melodrama.

 Anyway, I'm really tired of arguing about this.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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zarathustra wrote: And

zarathustra wrote:

And I'll take mine. By any unbiased analysis, my chances are better.

Statistics on an issue like this are meaningless.

Quote:
Which book would that be? Surely you don't mean the bible, which despite wide circulation, is neither history nor substantiated.

Yes, I do mean the bible. It contains a wealth of historical information, and it is substantiated by it's age and circulation in the time it was written. And it is also substantiated by it's longevitey.

Quote:
The theory of evolution will survive long after christianity has been put out to pasture. Take care to note that evolutionary theory has advanced humanity further in less than two centuries than has christianity over the course of two millennia.

We'll see about that. It's got a long ways to go.

Quote:
Well, good. Wouldn't want to be one of those god sends to hell even when they don't deserve it.
No one goes to hell undeservingly.

Quote:
Why does life have to have any meaning? And I'm really not worried whether someone remembers me after I die. There just might be some carpenter named jesus rotting in the ground, who died hoping someone would remember him -- but not me.
The mere fact that most human beings want to know the meaning of life, is a pretty strong indicator that there is a meaning to life.

Quote:
The "give his life for you" line is just a cheap ploy to get sympathy. It's one of the oldest religious tricks in the book.

Yeah, you caught me. I was trying to trick you into saving your life. Because it will do me such a world of personal good if you start believing in Christ. I have so much to gain by that.

Quote:
"greatest gift imaginable"? I can imagine a much greater gift. How about just sending us all straight to the enternal bliss of heaven, without having to sit through all this B-grade melodrama.
That is impossible, and a waste of time. That would imply that the only reason God created us was so He could have a bunch of people running around his throne in heaven, and did not have a purpose for them to accomplish during this B-grade melodrama that is temporal life.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Please grow a brain. There

Please grow a brain. There is documented evidence for the other things you mentioned. None for a god or Jesus. The BuyBull doesn't count for shit.

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MattShizzle wrote:Please

MattShizzle wrote:
Please grow a brain. There is documented evidence for the other things you mentioned. None for a god or Jesus. The BuyBull doesn't count for shit.

Could you be a little more specific? What that I mentioned is there documented evidence for?

Are you talking about the civil war, and that stuff that I mentioned? If so, you accept those things as true because the history books tell you about them. And you might even have a living or dead relative who personally went through some of those things. But you have to accept their word for it, or the history books because you weren't there. But there is a lot of documented evidence of those events, as you said. Well, there is a lot of documented evidence of Jesus Christ too. All those books that talk about him in the bible were not written by the same author. So each one validates the others. The only difference is the time frame. Jesus lived much longer ago than the civil war. So time has made us forget. But the documentation still lives on.

And when you say that there is no documented evidence for Jesus, you obviously mean besides the bible, I presume. And you discount that very large ancient volume of documented evidence because?

 

(Notice how I didn't respond to your grow a brain comment? And I didn't return it with another insult. That is called being respectful and polite. Give it a try sometime.)

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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There are actual pictures

There are actual pictures taken from the civil war, and there are accounts from both sides, actual bullets left over, flags, etc. And there aren't idiotic claims such as people rising from the dead. The Jeebus story has one book ripped off from earlier myths, and stories written hundreds of years later, forgeries, etc. No architectural evidence or contemporary writings from the other side. Sorry, but your claim was totally stupid.

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MattShizzle wrote:There

MattShizzle wrote:
There are actual pictures taken from the civil war, and there are accounts from both sides, actual bullets left over, flags, etc. And there aren't idiotic claims such as people rising from the dead. The Jeebus story has one book ripped off from earlier myths, and stories written hundreds of years later, forgeries, etc. No architectural evidence or contemporary writings from the other side. Sorry, but your claim was totally stupid.
You aren't exactly showing your expertise by that statement either.

What physical evidence would there be? Some wood from the cross? Some linen from the death garments they wrapped him in? You've gotta be kidding. Those things don't last for 2,000 years. And pictures? Well, the camera wasn't invented yet. And there probably were paintings, but again, they don't last 2,000 years.

 2,000 years from now, none of the bullets and stuff you mentioned will still be around either. Does that mean at that point the civil war will no longer be true?

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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I'm guessing the pictures

I'm guessing the pictures will still exist. Even for someone like Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great (before Jesus) we have their own writings, writings of their enemies, contemporary statues, coins, etc.

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MattShizzle wrote:I'm

MattShizzle wrote:
I'm guessing the pictures will still exist. Even for someone like Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great (before Jesus) we have their own writings, writings of their enemies, contemporary statues, coins, etc.

Julius Ceasar was the ruler of the largest nation that has ever existed. Jesus was a carpenter.

The fact that we have any documentation of his life at all is a testament to the impact that he had on those who followed him. Because most carpenters that lived back then did not have books written about them which lasted 2,000 years and counting.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
The only difference is the time frame.

No, the difference is that history books are not just granted the title 'true' because a document exists. The process for verifying historical accuracy mirrors in many ways scientific peer review. Documents (or other proposed proofs of an event) are compared to other documents and proofs that have been verified to be true. The historical community runs the proposed proof through the ringer, trying to show that it is provably false, incredibly unlikely based on existing knowledge of the time and area, or absent of logic based on what we understand of scientific possibility. Documents that propose magical powers or other 'supernatural' events are tossed out because there is no verifiable evidence showing that these events are even possible.

So no, we believe the Civil War happened because of vast amounts of proof which is not contradicted by scientific possibility. Whether or not it can be proved that this carpenter existed is irrelivant, what is relevant are the proposed miracles and 'supernatural' events.

Does that help? He was just being brief because this has been explained a zillion times and no theist ever seems to understand.

[EDIT: like the scientific community, the historical verification process always keeps in mind human bias and the possibility that there will be evidence in the future that will cause a change in what they can prove true. However, we go with what we CAN prove true and do not put weight on information that could possibly, someday, be presented...maybe.]


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Musicdude

Musicdude wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:
I'm guessing the pictures will still exist. Even for someone like Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great (before Jesus) we have their own writings, writings of their enemies, contemporary statues, coins, etc.

Julius Ceasar was the ruler of the largest nation that has ever existed. Jesus was a carpenter.

The fact that we have any documentation of his life at all is a testament to the impact that he had on those who followed him. Because most carpenters that lived back then did not have books written about them which lasted 2,000 years and counting.

Where is the documentation of Jesus' life?

The earliest stuff was from Paul (20 yrs after Jesus allegedly died) and he wrote about an entirely different christ concept than the Jesus desribed in the gospels (which were written 20+ years after Paul's stuff)  

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jcgadfly wrote: Musicdude

jcgadfly wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:
I'm guessing the pictures will still exist. Even for someone like Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great (before Jesus) we have their own writings, writings of their enemies, contemporary statues, coins, etc.

Julius Ceasar was the ruler of the largest nation that has ever existed. Jesus was a carpenter.

The fact that we have any documentation of his life at all is a testament to the impact that he had on those who followed him. Because most carpenters that lived back then did not have books written about them which lasted 2,000 years and counting.

Where is the documentation of Jesus' life?

The earliest stuff was from Paul (20 yrs after Jesus allegedly died) and he wrote about an entirely different christ concept than the Jesus desribed in the gospels (which were written 20+ years after Paul's stuff)  

 

I do not agree that the Jesus Paul described was in any way different than the Jesus described in the gospels. Please explain how it was different.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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marcusfish

marcusfish wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
The only difference is the time frame.

No, the difference is that history books are not just granted the title 'true' because a document exists. The process for verifying historical accuracy mirrors in many ways scientific peer review. Documents (or other proposed proofs of an event) are compared to other documents and proofs that have been verified to be true. The historical community runs the proposed proof through the ringer, trying to show that it is provably false, incredibly unlikely based on existing knowledge of the time and area, or absent of logic based on what we understand of scientific possibility. Documents that propose magical powers or other 'supernatural' events are tossed out because there is no verifiable evidence showing that these events are even possible.

So no, we believe the Civil War happened because of vast amounts of proof which is not contradicted by scientific possibility. Whether or not it can be proved that this carpenter existed is irrelivant, what is relevant are the proposed miracles and 'supernatural' events.

Does that help? He was just being brief because this has been explained a zillion times and no theist ever seems to understand.

[EDIT: like the scientific community, the historical verification process always keeps in mind human bias and the possibility that there will be evidence in the future that will cause a change in what they can prove true. However, we go with what we CAN prove true and do not put weight on information that could possibly, someday, be presented...maybe.]

That is easy to say when you live in a time with the internet, laser printers, etc. Thousands of books are written just for the sake of entertainment these days, because printing a book is relatively easy, and people will pay for it. It was not easy then, and there was no profit for it. It was a different time. Again, you can't hold the bible to the same standards as a history book written 100 years ago. There is very little comparison between the two.

 

No other 2,000 year old book is scrutinized like the bible before considered to be historically accurate. I wonder why that is? Maybe it's because no other 2,000 year old book convicts people of their sins.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
Statistics on an issue like this are meaningless.

Statistically speaking, the chances that jesus is real are nil.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
Which book would that be? Surely you don't mean the bible, which despite wide circulation, is neither history nor substantiated.

Yes, I do mean the bible. It contains a wealth of historical information...

Oh really. Do tell.

Musicdude wrote:
..., and it is substantiated by it's age and circulation in the time it was written. And it is also substantiated by it's longevitey.

Hardly. If you want to argue by age/longevity, the bhagavad gita or confucius' analects trump the bible handily. If you want to argue circulation, the qu'ran reached critical mass in a much shorter time. Either way, the bible loses.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
The theory of evolution will survive long after christianity has been put out to pasture. Take care to note that evolutionary theory has advanced humanity further in less than two centuries than has christianity over the course of two millennia.

We'll see about that. It's got a long ways to go.

I'd say it's chances are pretty good. Merely a century after the theory was advanced, research has yielded overwhelming evidence to support it (not so for the bible). And it has improved the human condition in a way religion never has. Observe how it has increased our understanding of disease -- and our ability to eradicate it. The bible has never offered any comparable benefit (christendom didn't pray its way out of the black plague).

Musicdude wrote:
The mere fact that most human beings want to know the meaning of life, is a pretty strong indicator that there is a meaning to life.

At best, it's a strong indicator that some people want there to be a meaning. The mere fact that other living things go through life without such concerns is a pretty strong indicator that there is no meaning.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
The "give his life for you" line is just a cheap ploy to get sympathy. It's one of the oldest religious tricks in the book.

Yeah, you caught me.

I did. The "dead god" sales pitch was well in use before somebody put the jesus label on it.

Musicdude wrote:
I was trying to trick you into saving your life. Because it will do me such a world of personal good if you start believing in Christ. I have so much to gain by that.

A cancerous tumor hasn't much to gain as it devours a healthy body, but it still does it (cancer...I think I just put the thread back on topic. w00t!)

Musicdude wrote:
That is impossible, and a waste of time. That would imply that the only reason God created us was so He could have a bunch of people running around his throne in heaven, and did not have a purpose for them to accomplish during this B-grade melodrama that is temporal life.

You find it ridiculous that god would create us so he could have a bunch of people running around his throne? But rather it makes sense to you that god created us so he could punish the majority of us for acting the way he knew we were going to act when he created us, then have the remaining bunch of people running around his throne in heaven.

Musicdude wrote:

Julius Ceasar was the ruler of the largest nation that has ever existed. Jesus was a carpenter.

Nobody mentioned earthquakes or bodies rising from the graves when Julius Caesar died. If such things happened when jesus died (even if he was a carpenter), you'd think more people would write about it than the people who really wanted to make him out to be divine.

Musicdude wrote:

The fact that we have any documentation of his life at all is a testament to the impact that he had on those who followed him. Because most carpenters that lived back then did not have books written about them which lasted 2,000 years and counting.

Well maybe not real carpenters. But mythical figures with supposedly divine powers get books written about them all the time.

 

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Musicdude: "Maybe it's

Musicdude: "Maybe it's because no other 2,000 year old book convicts people of their sins."

Is that with or without a preacher/evangelist browbeating guilt into the "penitent"? 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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zarathustra

zarathustra wrote:

Statistically speaking, the chances that jesus is real are nil.

I don't believe in chance. Eye-wink

Quote:
Oh really. Do tell.

It contains the lineage of the tribes of israel. Is that all false too? It contains records of israel's kings throughout history. Is that false?

Quote:
Hardly. If you want to argue by age/longevity, the bhagavad gita or confucius' analects trump the bible handily. If you want to argue circulation, the qu'ran reached critical mass in a much shorter time. Either way, the bible loses.
There is no competition for the bible to lose, not with what I'm arguing. The qu'ran does not deny the existence of Jesus Christ, nor does the gita, nor does confucius' analects. They may deny that Christ was the son of God, but again, I'm not defending the bible's opinions in this argument, only it's historical facts.

Quote:
I'd say it's chances are pretty good. Merely a century after the theory was advanced, research has yielded overwhelming evidence to support it (not so for the bible). And it has improved the human condition in a way religion never has. Observe how it has increased our understanding of disease -- and our ability to eradicate it. The bible has never offered any comparable benefit (christendom didn't pray its way out of the black plague).
I've known people who were healed  of cancer because of their faith (one example is my future father-in-law, but he's not even remotely the only one I know of) Has evolution cause a cure for cancer to be found yet?

Quote:
At best, it's a strong indicator that some people want there to be a meaning. The mere fact that other living things go through life without such concerns is a pretty strong indicator that there is no meaning.
For those other living things there is not meaning of life.

Quote:
(cancer...I think I just put the thread back on topic. w00t!)
Hardly.

Quote:
You find it ridiculous that god would create us so he could have a bunch of people running around his throne? But rather it makes sense to you that god created us so he could punish the majority of us for acting the way he knew we were going to act when he created us, then have the remaining bunch of people running around his throne in heaven.
A good indication that you have no clue about why I believe God created humanity. Those things you mentioned are some (not all) of the results of creation, not the reason for creation.

Quote:
Nobody mentioned earthquakes or bodies rising from the graves when Julius Caesar died. If such things happened when jesus died (even if he was a carpenter), you'd think more people would write about it than the people who really wanted to make him out to be divine.

The one's who believed it was by the power of God, did write this stuff down, and it still lives on in writing. The one's who thought he got his power from satan, didn't want to perpetuate his teachings or his work, so they obviously would have no desire to record and preserve this information. On the contrary they had strong motivation to destroy such writings, and keep them from lasting as long as they did. But they were unsucessful, because God didn't want his word to be silenced by men.

Quote:
Well maybe not real carpenters. But mythical figures with supposedly divine powers get books written about them all the time.
Not back then, they didn't. Especially when most everyone in his time thought he was a kook, and killed him for blaspheming the god they did believe in. The ones with the power and wherewithall to document his ministry, had no desire to do so.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote: No other

Musicdude wrote:
No other 2,000 year old book is scrutinized like the bible before considered to be historically accurate. I wonder why that is? Maybe it's because no other 2,000 year old book convicts people of their sins.

The fact that it makes supernatural claims Musicdude. That is why it is not considered to be historically accurate (at least in that regard) and even you know that to be the case.  


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Musicdude

Musicdude wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:
There are actual pictures taken from the civil war, and there are accounts from both sides, actual bullets left over, flags, etc. And there aren't idiotic claims such as people rising from the dead. The Jeebus story has one book ripped off from earlier myths, and stories written hundreds of years later, forgeries, etc. No architectural evidence or contemporary writings from the other side. Sorry, but your claim was totally stupid.

You aren't exactly showing your expertise by that statement either.

What physical evidence would there be? Some wood from the cross? Some linen from the death garments they wrapped him in? You've gotta be kidding. Those things don't last for 2,000 years. And pictures? Well, the camera wasn't invented yet. And there probably were paintings, but again, they don't last 2,000 years.

2,000 years from now, none of the bullets and stuff you mentioned will still be around either. Does that mean at that point the civil war will no longer be true?

There is plenty of archaeological evidence of religions and gods much, much older than Christianity and Jesus in the form of statues, carvings, etc. If this Jesus lived and performed the miracles attributed to him, there would surely be some sort of contemporary account, even if just some ordinary citizen's artistic representation of such momentous, extraordinary events.

I find it really difficult to believe that Christianity is anything more than a religion that took hold because it was the one most easily utilized at that time to control the masses, what with the Bible supporting claims of Divine right of succession and Church rule and all. Once you study the history of world religions, it's simply ludicrous to single out Christianity as somehow special or any more "true" (reality-based) than any of the other thousands of cults that have existed throughout human history.

2000 years from now not only could the bullets, medals, weapons, and whatnot from the American Civil War still exist, but there will still be all of those photographs, copies of soldiers' diaries, gravestones and other evidence of the events that have been and will be preserved using every technology that comes along.

There's no reason to believe that of all the miracles and magic attributed to gods since time immemorial, only Yahweh and Jesus' actually happened; and that their stories are somehow worthy of being considered above the same criticisms of any other religious myths in human history. There's just no evidence to support those claims.

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Musicdude wrote: I've

Musicdude wrote:

I've known people who were healed of cancer because of their faith (one example is my future father-in-law, but he's not even remotely the only one I know of) Has evolution cause a cure for cancer to be found yet?

I am sorry to hear your father-in-law was afflicted with cancer.

Can I ask a question.....? Okay, I will go ahead and ask.

Your father-in-law's cancer cure, are you claiming it to be miraculous?  Was he still under a doctors care or seeking treatment? Was he receiving chemo? Was he receiving radiation? Was he taking medications? Was their a tumor removed?


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jcgadfly wrote: Musicdude:

jcgadfly wrote:

Musicdude: "Maybe it's because no other 2,000 year old book convicts people of their sins."

Is that with or without a preacher/evangelist browbeating guilt into the "penitent"? 

It's because our consciences already convict us of our sins. So we are already guilty about them. So we get offended when some book reaffirms that guilt, and suggests punishment for those sins. No preacher is necessary to make you feel guilty about your sins. You're conscience does it all by it'self. But since you already feel guilty about this, the last thing you want to hear is how it is God who put that guilt in you, so you would know why you were condemned. We think by diminishing the bible we can alleviate our guilt, but we can't. It is still there. We want to sin and at the same time feel good about ourselves, and our souls just won't let us do that. So we try to destroy and discredit anything that implies responsibility for our actions, and promote "relative morality" which is nothing more than a weak attempt to justify our actions to ourselves and alleviate our guilt.

There is a much easier way to alleviate that guilt. Let Christ take it from you. Admit that you really are guilty, and quit living in arrogant denial. And acknowledge that you really do deserve punishment because of it. And then let Jesus take that punishment for you. Then you can live life truly free. Free from guilt. Free from punishment. Free from fear.

 Quit denying your own conscience. Admit guilt. Admit the fact that you deserve punishment. And then let God save you from that punishment, and take it away because of His grace, not becuase anything you do could earn forgiveness.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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BGH wrote: Musicdude

BGH wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

I've known people who were healed of cancer because of their faith (one example is my future father-in-law, but he's not even remotely the only one I know of) Has evolution cause a cure for cancer to be found yet?

I am sorry to hear your father-in-law was afflicted with cancer.

Can I ask a question.....? Okay, I will go ahead and ask.

Your father-in-law's cancer cure, are you claiming it to be miraculous?  Was he still under a doctors care or seeking treatment? Was he receiving chemo? Was he receiving radiation? Was he taking medications? Was their a tumor removed?

 

He never recieved treatment. They diagnosed him and recommended chemo. He was mulling it over and praying about it, and trying to decide whether to start chemo or not. And then went back to the doctor and they said it was gone. It wasn't a fluke or a mistake. They knew that he really had it. But it just went away without treatment.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote: Are you

Musicdude wrote:

Are you talking about the civil war, and that stuff that I mentioned? If so, you accept those things as true because the history books tell you about them. And you might even have a living or dead relative who personally went through some of those things. But you have to accept their word for it, or the history books because you weren't there. But there is a lot of documented evidence of those events, as you said.

With the Civl War, for example... 

There countless accounts of which we still have countless manuscripts of eyewitness accounts that were written DURING the actual event, not years later...

It was a big enough event that affected pretty much everyone alive at that point in history in the USA...

People in other areas, who were not involved but had heard about it, documented what they knew about it as well DURING the actual event, not years later. 

 But the most important thing is this...  When there are disagreements in Civil War history, we call them as they are.  No one spends their life trying to explain away the contradictions in the record.  If one accout says "4 women went to the cemetary to visit their dead husbands' graves" and another says 2 women.  Who cares?  Its not important.

However, the bible contains a similar contradicion  (how many women went to the tomb?) and it IS important because so many people believe the book is flawless and without contradiction. 

Take a little bible quiz at http://exchristian.net/3/


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Musicdude wrote: It

Musicdude wrote:
It contains the lineage of the tribes of israel. Is that all false too? It contains records of israel's kings throughout history. Is that false?

Neat, so you believe that any book which has even a hint of real world places or people is true?

Whether or not there are names of people and places in that book that are real in no way makes the supernatural claims any more plausible. But you already know this, you just keep restating this kind of nonsense because you seem to want to believe it so badly. Which, for the record, also doesn't make the supernatural claims in the bible any more plausible.  


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Musicdude wrote: He never

Musicdude wrote:

He never recieved treatment. They diagnosed him and recommended chemo. He was mulling it over and praying about it, and trying to decide whether to start chemo or not. And then went back to the doctor and they said it was gone. It wasn't a fluke or a mistake. They knew that he really had it. But it just went away without treatment.

How are you sure the result of the test were not a false positive?

Why do others who pray end up suffering and dying?  Why is your father-in-law's case different?

May I ask what type of cancer it was? 


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Musicdude wrote: Quit

Musicdude wrote:

Quit denying your own conscience. Admit guilt. Admit the fact that you deserve punishment. And then let God save you from that punishment, and take it away because of His grace, not becuase anything you do could earn forgiveness.

Guilt for what? Admit deserving punishment for what? For not believing the unbelievable? For independent thought? Your god means as much to me as Lord Xenu does; that is, none whatsoever.

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ObnoxiousBroad

ObnoxiousBroad wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

Quit denying your own conscience. Admit guilt. Admit the fact that you deserve punishment. And then let God save you from that punishment, and take it away because of His grace, not becuase anything you do could earn forgiveness.

Guilt for what? Admit deserving punishment for what? For not believing the unbelievable? For independent thought? Your god means as much to me as Lord Xenu does; that is, none whatsoever.

 

For constantly doing what you know is wrong, whether a book tells you it is wrong or not.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote: jcgadfly

Musicdude wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:

Musicdude: "Maybe it's because no other 2,000 year old book convicts people of their sins."

Is that with or without a preacher/evangelist browbeating guilt into the "penitent"?

It's because our consciences already convict us of our sins. So we are already guilty about them. So we get offended when some book reaffirms that guilt, and suggests punishment for those sins. No preacher is necessary to make you feel guilty about your sins. You're conscience does it all by it'self. But since you already feel guilty about this, the last thing you want to hear is how it is God who put that guilt in you, so you would know why you were condemned. We think by diminishing the bible we can alleviate our guilt, but we can't. It is still there. We want to sin and at the same time feel good about ourselves, and our souls just won't let us do that. So we try to destroy and discredit anything that implies responsibility for our actions, and promote "relative morality" which is nothing more than a weak attempt to justify our actions to ourselves and alleviate our guilt.

There is a much easier way to alleviate that guilt. Let Christ take it from you. Admit that you really are guilty, and quit living in arrogant denial. And acknowledge that you really do deserve punishment because of it. And then let Jesus take that punishment for you. Then you can live life truly free. Free from guilt. Free from punishment. Free from fear.

Quit denying your own conscience. Admit guilt. Admit the fact that you deserve punishment. And then let God save you from that punishment, and take it away because of His grace, not becuase anything you do could earn forgiveness.

My conscience tells me I'm guilty? Then why did you resort to tryi8ng to browbeat me into submission?

I felt far more guilt trying to live as a christian because I felt I could never measure up no matter how well I followed the Bible. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Musicdude

Musicdude wrote:
ObnoxiousBroad wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

Quit denying your own conscience. Admit guilt. Admit the fact that you deserve punishment. And then let God save you from that punishment, and take it away because of His grace, not becuase anything you do could earn forgiveness.

Guilt for what? Admit deserving punishment for what? For not believing the unbelievable? For independent thought? Your god means as much to me as Lord Xenu does; that is, none whatsoever.

 

For constantly doing what you know is wrong, whether a book tells you it is wrong or not.

What, exactly are you talking about? What am I constantly doing that I "know is wrong" - and wrong according to whom? Please remember that I do not subscribe to your belief system. 

Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.


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BGH wrote: Musicdude

BGH wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

He never recieved treatment. They diagnosed him and recommended chemo. He was mulling it over and praying about it, and trying to decide whether to start chemo or not. And then went back to the doctor and they said it was gone. It wasn't a fluke or a mistake. They knew that he really had it. But it just went away without treatment.

How are you sure the result of the test were not a false positive?

Why do others who pray end up suffering and dying?  Why is your father-in-law's case different?

May I ask what type of cancer it was? 

 

I don't remember what type. I can ask him, but I don't see what difference it makes. I think it was in his arm. I've heard him talk about it some, but I don't know all the details. This happened about 10 years ago, way before I knew him.

They doctors did not seem to think the original results were false. Aside from that, I don't know how you could be sure. But again, I've known several accounts of this happening.

Why doesn't God cure everyone from this? I don't know. My grandmother died from cancer about a year ago, and she had prayed for healing. God's purpose is not to heal all the sick. That was not Jesus' purpose either. The only time Jesus healed anyone, was to get their attention and to establish to them that he was really the son of God. To gain credibility with them, so that when He told them that He could forgive their sins, they would believe Him.

If God wanted to heal the world, He could snap His fingers and instantly do so. I suspect the reason He sometimes heals people today is the same reason Jesus healed them back then. There are countless people that my father in law has told about his miracle. And to many it has brought encouragement and faith in God. To some even it has brought salvation. Because he gave God all the glory for that, and did not give any of it to the doctors, or to himself, or anyone else. That way it was something God could use to reach others. Maybe my grandma wouldn't have given God the glory. Or maybe there is some other reason I am unaware of. I know that my grandma was pretty sick and tired, and old. And now she is young and well and much happier. So would it really have been better for God to heal her, so she could live another few years in a tired old body? Probably not. The fact that God lets some people die is not a negative thing for Christians. Death is nothing to be afraid of. It is going home. If my death can result in one person coming to know Jesus, then I hope God will take it. Because our temporal life is very short, but eternity is a very long time.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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ObnoxiousBroad

ObnoxiousBroad wrote:
Musicdude wrote:
ObnoxiousBroad wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

Quit denying your own conscience. Admit guilt. Admit the fact that you deserve punishment. And then let God save you from that punishment, and take it away because of His grace, not becuase anything you do could earn forgiveness.

Guilt for what? Admit deserving punishment for what? For not believing the unbelievable? For independent thought? Your god means as much to me as Lord Xenu does; that is, none whatsoever.

 

For constantly doing what you know is wrong, whether a book tells you it is wrong or not.

What, exactly are you talking about? What am I constantly doing that I "know is wrong" - and wrong according to whom? Please remember that I do not subscribe to your belief system. 

 

Have you not been listening to me at all? Your consciense. You are doing what you know is wrong, according to you. Everyone does this. So do I.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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ObnoxiousBroad wrote:
Please remember that I do not subscribe to your belief system.

Good luck with that.