The cancer lady. [locked]
Offline Was it just me or was that lady in the audience who kept pushing Kirk to answer her question a complete moron? He was trying to answer her, and she kept interrupting him and accusing him of avoiding the question which he wasn't doing. What a retard. Why did God allow cancer? The answer to that question is the same answer to why God allows any and all suffering to befall us. And Kirk was trying to answer that broader question, when he kept being very rudely interrupted. God didn't create suffering. He didn't create cancer. He created people with free will, and those people's decisions have caused all the evil in the world, including cancer.
The bible says that the world itself was condemned because of man's sin.
Granted that was a Christian-biblical answer to the question, but that is what was being asked. That question was being asked assuming God was real and Christianity was real. If that is true, then the bible must be the source of the answer to that question.
One angel originally created evil. Then one man recreated it. Evil is nothing more than disobedience to God. For disobedience to God to exist there must be some created thing with the ability to choose whether or not to obey God. That is why sin did not exist prior to the creation of angels. God did not make the angel sin, nor did he make the man sin. He only told them what to do and gave them the free will to obey or not. They chose to not obey. They have suffered the consequences.
That just irked me a little. And then I think I saw somewhere on this website bragging about the fact that Kirk couldn't even answer an audience member's question. Please.....Maybe if she would've shut up long enough for him to answer he could have.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Now, in retrospect the wall has been knocked down. This was illustrated when the thick veil in the temple was ripped in half which divided the section of the temple where God resided from the rest of the temple. Now that the wall has been destroyed, we have nothing standing between us and God anymore, except faith. We had to trust God before sin, and nothing has changed. We must trust Him now. The ruins of the wall are easily walked over, but you must choose to make that walk. Why? Because God doesn't force anyone to take salvation. Why doesn't He? Because that would defeat the purpose for which He created mankind. That is deeper subject called the angelic conflict, which I can give you a link to a brief explanation if you like. http://www.kmhancock.com/Karen%20Hancock's%20Angelic%20Conflict.htm Sorry the link isn't working, but if you copy and paste it into your browser it should work.
But God didn't obscure the truth to make it difficult for folks to believe. He came and perfomed many miracles. His disciples spread the word, and established churches and missionaries to spread it ever further. And they apparently did a pretty good job, since has been one of the largest faiths for a long time. The word of the cross is out there, available to anyone who seeks answers to life.
So to recap, He created us perfect and in return we rebelled against Him. Because of that we are doomed to die, but instead He sacrifices His own Son so that we might have a second chance. Then the only requirement for that second chance is believing that the second chance is available. He could've made us jump through hoops for a second chance, but He didn't. He made it as simple as believing a message of good news, and then spread that good news abroad so everyone could hear.
As far as justice is concerned, it meets the minimum requirements for justice, but then greatly exceeds them, in the form of a grace gift.
As far as fairness is concerned, it is way more than fair. Fair would be death to all mankind. The bible even states that specifically, that God is just to condemn whoever He pleases and not save the first soul. So He is not bound by justice to save anyone, but does so because of His matchless grace.
If you choose to reject that salvation, thinking either you don't need to be saved or you can save yourself, you can't blame God for that.As far as your other question is concerned I would ask you this. Can you not see the difference between knowing the future and controlling it?
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
First off, you seem to have a hard time identifying sarcasm... I even put in some of those smiley faces to make it clear. Fair enough though, I've misread intent in written text before too...
Your "because you can't fully comprehend God, that means He must not exist" logic apllies to anything. You can't comprehend Allah, or the hindu god's, or any of the other millions of "God concepts" that have existed... Maybe God is a prankster, and he's going to send all Christians to hell and send all cat's to heaven???? You can't comprehend his ways! And ethcis don't apply to him after all so he has every right to do that.
www.andyhanson.net
I would address your entire post, but this is the most important sentence in it, as this is a cop-out answer.
1) If God knows the future, and what will happen, that violates the concept of free will. That means that everything we do is predetermined. If God created us in his and the angels' image, and that is interpreted as we have free will, that means our actions should be free from prediction, otherwise our paths in life, and our ultimate fates, are determined prior to even our conceptions.
2) It follows that God did not create the first humans perfectly, or rather, at the very least, that the system that we are in is imperfect. The Garden of Eden came complete with a loophole to destroy the entire way of life and lead to the downfall of humankind. Wouldn't a better, or closer to perfect, system exist with the elimination of the loophole? Surely, that's true. So, God either created an imperfect system on purpose, or lacked the foresight to see its imperfection. If you combine that with the predeterminism, he created a system in which the participants would be led directly to the only means to destroy themselves. Again, hardly just.
3) If God's divine law stated that the penalty for sin was death, and the crucifixion of Jesus remedied that, what happened in the interim between the exile from Eden and the crucifixion? You can't expect us to believe that it took an omnipotent God that long to hatch a plan that solved the rift between humans and the Divine. Also, why weren't people getting killed left and right for sinning in the interim (I mean, moreso than already existed in the Bible)?
4) To tie this into the original discussion, which was about the reason for suffering, if God can strike us all down whenever and whereever, but chooses not to out of grace, how is that not enough to hang over mankind without the addition of diseases and natural disasters and genocide, etc.? That is what pushes the whole arrangement into unjust/unfair. If the non-believers go to Hell anyway, why the suffering on Earth?
David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.
If "God" knew the future, and then chose to create it, then he is at least partly responsible.
You put your cat in my room and let my hamster out, you are still responsible for my hamster's death. Yes the cat "chose" to do it, but you, knowing full well what would happen, made the decision to let the event exist.
www.andyhanson.net
How do you call the tree a loophole? If that were a loophole then the only way for there to not be any loopholes is if God never gave adam and eve any instructions whatsoever, so they could'nt disobey Him. That's like not telling your dog to get the ball so when he doesn't get it, he's being a very good dog.
Knowing the future is not the same as controlling it. Right at this very minute is anyone controlling your actions? If you want to get up and walk around, is there anything that is stopping you? No. You make your own decisions and you live with the consequences. If someone is omniscient and knew you were going to get up and walk around and knew what the consequences of that would be, and planned accordingly, how is that fate, or predestination?
To God the future is an absolute, but to us it is not.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
That is the definition of fate/predestination. If two weeks from now, I am going to walk into Taco Bell and order a 7-Layer Crunchwrap, God would know I am going to do that. Granted, when I walk into Taco Bell, there is a whole menu to order from, and I have the option to walk out and not order anything. I also have the option to jump over the counter and rob the cash register. I also have the option to order my food and stick it down the front of my pants. However, whatever I decide to do, no matter how random it is, it's already known by someone. The existence of that knowledge disproves free will.
Your type of compatibility theory is fine in the absence of God, or the absence of at least an omniscient God. Then I can make a decision, and free will exists, because I could have chosen any of an inifinite amount of options, and no one had any foresight beforehand, so my choice meets the requirements of a free choice. But the fact that my future can be seen by God, along with all the choices I will make, shows that I really have no choice. I have infinite options, but determined choices.
Determinism doesn't mean that I am controlled. Determinism means that my choices are already determined. The fact that you grant the God has "planned accordingly" for my actions shows that my fate is sealed. Therefore, in an absence of free will, the downfall of any human is orchestrated long beforehand, so how is an existence where I am un unknowning slave to a set of predetermined decisions a gift/fair/just/anything other than the equivalent of a television show for the Christian God (executive producer) to watch?
David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.
If God has a perfect plan for you, to first off get saved at an early age. Then to diligently study the bible all your growing up years and head to Africa as a missionary to the natives there. And let's say you do get saved, but you get distracted with the details of life, and decide that your job and your things are a bigger priority to you than God, so you don't become a missionary. Now those people in Africa are just SOL? No, because God already knew you weren't going to Africa, even though He wanted you to. So He gets someone else to go. Did He make you choose work over Him? No. But He had a plan for some folks in Africa to hear about His gospel and that is more important than you, so He made sure it would happen, in spite of your disobedience.
If your fate is sealed, it is because you have already chosen every choice you will ever make. Your fate may be set in stone, but you are the one who set it in stone.
If you are standing in front of a roulette wheel in Las Vegas at the Mirage hotel, and they are about to spin the wheel, and you have a feeling that black-7 is going to come up, so you put down $100 on it. You don't know it, but you have a feeling. That feeling may be completely nothing more than wishful thinking, but you feel it nonetheless. You think and hope that black-7 will come up, but you don't know. But you choose to take the odds that it will. About 5 seconds later, the wheel is spun and sure enough you win. Now what you thought was going to happen has already happened and forevermore will be a known truth. What seperates the inclination and choice from fate? About 5 seconds. So did the reality that black-7 was definitely going to come up cause you to pick it? No. You made a guess and made a personal choice to take the risk with your $100. Now the fact that you made that choice is proven history too. The future is an absolute certainty. All things are only going to happen once and only one way, and there is nothing that can change it. But that does not relieve us of responsibility for our actions. We don't know what the future holds, so we must make the wisest choices we know how and hope for the best. But the choices we will make have already been determined."For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Changing the context in which God views time and existence doesn't change the definition of determinism. In fact, it solidifies my point further. If God exists outside of time, before, during, and after I exist all at once, and sees all Creation as a simple snapshot (for lack of a better term), then he has determined who is a believer and who is a non-believer already. Why? Because he can see any event before it happens (with foresight) and the same event after it has happened (with hindsight) and he also witnesses it happening, all at the same time. He knows the causes and effects of everything that has, is, and will ever happen, even before anything ever happened, and it is his pattern that caused this. By reducing all choices ever made into an object (for lack of a better term) that is viewable all at once is the most fatalistic view of existence ever purported.
Choice does not exist in this view of reality; there is only an illusion of choice. There is no right and wrong in this reality; there is only an illusion of right and wrong. This robs meaning from life itself, which is why an omnipresent and omniscient God is not a concept that lends itself to asking people to make absolute decisions about their beliefs at all.
David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.
God did not create the choices you make. He only created you, and gave you free will. He set in motion a world that had an unlimited amount of possible outcomes, but He already knew every decision that would be made by everyone, and thus to Him there is only one outcome. Many possibilities, but only one reality.
To God there is only one reality. To us there is only one reality. The difference is, to us it happens sequentially, but to God it happens all at once.
This is a matter of perspective, not fate vs. choice.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
You would be responsible for it.
www.andyhanson.net
Well, then my second paragraph follows, since you granted a wholly immutable and fatalistic reality. However, you state what I said in my second paragraph in different terms when you said...
Then imagine all of existence as a loaf of bread. To God, the creator (or baker), he has this entire loaf of bread as one thing. However, we can't see the loaf of bread. We only see it crumb by crumb as it is reveled to us. However, the loaf of bread these crumb are coming from already exists. Everything that is in that loaf of bread, that will ever be in that loaf of bread, and all the connections between the crumbs have always been there. Whether you see it all at once, or a miniscule piece at a time, the end result is the same once all the crumbs are reassembled. The loaf of bread does not constantly change, nor does it contain every possibility of breadiness within it, since God is looking at the loaf after he has finished making it. As you granted, this loaf of bread, which represents our reality, is immutable. God had determined its form before he even thought of revealing the first crumb to humans.
Now simply replace crumbs with choices. The entire form of reality is made up of these choices, and their interconnections are what form the very fabric of the entirety of creation, as it is viewed by God at the end of time. Since this is immutable, all of our choices must be predetermined, for this form is not changing. Adding free will into the equation means that God cannot be witnessing anything from the end of time because reality would be constantly changing because our choices are not predetermined, thus effecting all subsequent choices to the end of time. However, since it has been stated he is viewing the entirety of choices at the end of time, we have no choice but to choose the choices that make up God's creation.
Choice, therefore, is an illusion. We are predestined to say what we say and do what we do, and so on and so forth, or else it upsets the very description of the universe that you have advanced, which is immutable.
David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.
That way, no matter what choice a person makes, God is always right because he's limited the choices.
It's like the old SNL sketch where the restaraunt has a full menu but you can only order cheeseburgers and Pepsi
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Luckily, for me it didn't require travel or I would never have escaped. It did, however, take being exposed to the real world without any contributions from the "matrix bubble." Christians have to constantly re-indoctrinate themselves. It's kind of like a booster shot against reality.
And some of them will at least begin to find their way through message boards like this. I didn't have much input. I had to mostly go it alone, so today's indoctrinated have one up on me. I know some will never escape, but I don't believe we post in vain.
Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
If you say so. I just don't see how you guys come to that conclusion. Maybe our perspectives are just too different to understand each other. I don't see how God has limited anything.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
You've probably been told nothing else for awhile - I was too. Then I started asking questions...
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Listen, I understand the difference between knowing the future and changing the future, and it's kind of pompous for you to assume I don't because you feel the need to shift ground constantly to attempt to prove how the very nature of God negates the existence of free will.
You granted an immutable existence.
Now, I don't know how you don't see how if I stand in front of three doors, and I have to choose one, that from my perspective I have a choice. I have three doors, plain as day. I choose door number 2, for the sake of argument. In my mind, I am happy. I have free will within the context of that moment because I had a choice and I made it. I chose door number 2, door number 1 and door number 3 were not chosen. I can pat myself on the back because I made a decision.
Now, we introduce the concept of an omniscient and omnipresent God, the Christian God, as described by the Bible, you, and a host of other people who have enough knowledge to share on the subject of the nature of God. He exists at the moment I chose the door (seeing I chose the door so as not to deviate from what he set forth), he existed before I chose the door (knowing I would choose the door, but not interfering, seeing as he didn't have to since I will choose the door he has already specified), and he exists after I chose the door (the choice which has now ascended to become a necessary part of his plan, which always existed, is immutable, and is a necessity for future choices for the plan to keep its immutable form.)
You keep trying to make a distinction between knowing the future and interfering, but there is nothing in which to interfere. When he created the reality in which we live, it was created in such a way the all of the decisions that followed creation became apparent to God. He could have created the universe in any way he wanted, with any set of choices springing forth from his creation, but he chose this set. That was all the interference that is necessary: the original interference of creating this immutable set of illusory choices and predetermined decisions.
If you accept the very notion of free will, then there is no way God could accurately know when, where, or how anything happens at any particular moment in time, but it is infinite, and constantly shifting: an infinite infinities for each organism at each fraction of a second forever. Yes, I understand that God is God and exists outside of time and somehow meets the criteria for stopping a constantly mutating universe from mutating by freezing it in a singularity that encompasses all of that but without all the pesky probability or whatever catch-all explanation you give before you revert to
which officially makes your argument circular logic.
Just because something is abstract does not mean we lack the faculty to describe it accurately to one another. I can describe the concepts of formal logic, among other things, which have no concrete existence. I have also described to you an inconsistency in your beliefs, asked for an explanation without a defaulting to a "mystery" explanation, and you eventually reverted to a "we can't know" stance, hinged in the circular logic of "God can do it, so says God's word."
David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
You yourself said what God has is beyond foreknowledge. You can't compare premonition, precognition, or even rigging the system in your favor to being outside the realm of all probability to the point where it no longer applies to you because you created the entities and the situation involved.
If you had foreknowledge, did you cause it to land on Black-7? No, of course not. You just knew an outcome that hasn't happened yet.
However, God always knew it was going to land on Black-7. It couldn't land anywhere else but Black-7. The speed the casino employee threw the ball, the speed the wheel was spun in the opposite direction, the time you arrived at the table, the bet you decided to start gambling on...all of that, in your definition, God did not just already know, but you had no choice but to be there and place that bet at that time. So, you win because in that piece of reality, that's the way it always has been.
David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.
However, the fact that your argument is reduced to the fact that you can only partially explain the phenomenon of free will sprouting from omniscience through your recitation of God's word is not a satisfactory explanation as to why it is possible. It's circular, and you need something outside of The Bible in order to give the argument any weight.
David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
What we've been discussing has been based on common sense and logic. The only thing I have taken from the bible is the concept that God is omniscient and we do have free will. I have explained how that is possible using logic, not the bible. And it is possible for omniscient God and free-willed man to co-exist. Whether or not God is omniscient, or there even is a God is an entirely different argument. We were assuming there was for the sake of this argument.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Musicdude,
Unless I'm seriously misreading you, you posted that God knows everything man is going to do because, as God views reality, man has already done it.
Where can freewill come into this?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I just don't understand where that question comes from.
To me, foreknowledge does not exclude free will. I don't understand what foreknowledge even has to do with free will. To me they have nothing to do with each other, and there is no reason to assume they are mutually exclusive.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
The comparison to the roulette wheel isn't completely accurate. If you yourself are not manipulating the speed of the wheel, the force of gravity, the weight of the ball and all other conditions affecting where the ball lands, then you are not controlling the outcome.
However, if god is the creator of everything, then he/she/it/they did define every condition affecting the outcome. You previously said god initially created us perfect. Either he/she/it/they did not realize we would fall from "perfection" (and therefore god would not be omniscient). Or, having created each of us exactly the way we are, god knows exactly how we will act in every situation (and the only way for us to act differently is for god to have created us differently). Therefore, god knew in advance that we would fall from "perfection", yet created us anyway.
There are no theists on operating tables.
You wrote that God knows what man is going to do because as far as he is concerned man has already done it.
If God has already seen man do something, how can man choose not to do that thing?
The question stands.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I still don't see why you ask this.
You are speaking about God's perspective. To Him there is only one possible outcome. To us there are many, and we must choose. Just because He knows what choices we will make doesn't change the fact that we must make those choices and make them well.
He lives outside of time, but we don't. We are responsible for our own decisions, and we have many to make. We don't have God's perspective, so how He sees things doesn't really matter to us.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Musicdude,
What you need to keep in mind is that an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God ('omnimax god'
is responsible for everything. Not only did this god put everything in place and know what will happen, but he created the rules by which things work. Every attribute of reality was created by this being (if it exists) so everything that happens in the universe is not only known but directly caused by it.
It's not like God was given a game to play and decided to make the game occur some set way that God liked, it's taht God created the game, the pices, the rules, and the outcome.
An omnimax god not only created my brain, but God created the processes my brain does, and how they work. Thus, whilemy brain makes the decision of whether to eat the chees or throw it across the room, it was god's programming that makes the decision, because all of the parameters of the thing that makes the decision have been designed.
In summary, every conceivable and real parameter of existence has been created by this being, thus everything that happens has been directly, specifically, and intentionally caused.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
That is not what I believe, and it's not what the bible teaches.
The universe, the earth, human beings, animals, etc... are all independant systems. God created them, but He doesn't govern and control them. As science shows, there is no need for any outside force to make nature work. It is an independent system, and so are we.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
But god (hypothetically speaking) created the universe, the earth, human beings, animals, etc...correct? And god created the rules by which nature works...correct? god is solely responsible for creating the "independent" system, and god knew exactly how the "independent" system would run, and knew when and how it would go off course -- and god created it anyway...correct?
Without establishing why the bible should be accorded any objective value, citation of its "teachings" has no bearing on the discussion.
There are no theists on operating tables.
There are general rules of operation, but many freedoms within those rules. Gravity for instance keeps you from jumping 40ft into the air. That is one limitation. But you are free to walk wherever you please. You can run, walk, swim, jump anywhere and any time you please. So though there are some limitations imposed by the rules and laws of nature that God created, they only limit the number of possible actions you may choose, but they leave you with a billion possible choices. Your IQ and education may limit your ability to think, but there are no restrictions or guidelines as to what you think about. You can think about whatever you please. You can do anything within your physical and mental abilities anytime you wish. That is free will. The idea that free will exists is an unarguable fact. Omniscience is really the only thing in question here.
He attempted to tell me what I believe about God. What I believe about God is based on that book. I was just correcting him. Neither of you even believe God exists, so this entire discussion is arbritrary if you get right down to it.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Good questions Zarathustra! But music dude completely avoid answering it...
Musicdude.... try again:
But god (hypothetically speaking) created the universe, the earth, human beings, animals, etc...correct? And god created the rules by which nature works...correct? god is solely responsible for creating the "independent" system, and god knew exactly how the "independent" system would run, and knew when and how it would go off course -- and god created it anyway...correct?
www.andyhanson.net
Which question did I avoid?
His question implied certain attributes about how God created the world that I don't agree with. So a simple answer to his question would be "yes." I tried to give a little more explanation than that. Did you actually read my answer?
I guess technically it was three questions. Let me give a simpler answer for you.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
But you see this as a failure, because your assumption is that a perfect world was God's goal in creating mankind. It wasn't. I'm sure He would've preferred it if man had never sinned, but that wasn't the reason He created us.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Musicdude, you have just admitted through pure logic, that God is responsible for evil. If you deny that, then you must deny logic.
A knows the future
A knows B will do evil (even before B exists, A knows this)
A creates B
therefore
A is responsible for evil
If you disagree with me, fix my logical argument above.
www.andyhanson.net
Then what was god's goal. Whatever it was, god, as author of everything, could have orchestrated things so as to meet the intended goal. If things didn't turn out in keeping with what god would've preferred, the blame lies squarely on god, for setting things up for their intended failure. god could have done things any way he/she/it/they wanted, but god chose to do it this way, and then decides (as I suppose the bible teaches) to punish us for his/her/its/their for the failed situation that god knew in advance would occur.
There are no theists on operating tables.
But you do seem to have moved beyond the simple notion of before, that god made us perfect, and we loused it all up. So you have progressed. High five!
It would be better to ask wtf was god thinking. Being able to create in whatever way desired (omnipotence), and being able to determine the effects of said creation (omniscience), god nonetheless chose to create us this way, then condemn us for the imperfect situtation that he/she/it/they authored, and knew would occur. Then, to be saved, we have to play by some rules that god again decided on -- when in fact god could have just saved us all (and even avoided that whole messy crucifixion episode -- as the bible teaches), without any extenuating conditions. Rather, god set up these rules, knowing full well that some people would not abide, and therefore suffer eternally in hell.
In essence, god created eternal suffering out of nothing. It would have been better not to have created anything at all. WTF was god thinking.
There are no theists on operating tables.
Admitting that you don't know. Progress has been made.
Yes, but eternal suffering is the risk taken for being free-willed (as the bible teaches, I suppose). Perhaps that is preferable to being a robot, I'm not sure. But it is certainly preferable to have never been created in the first place, than to be a participant in this project that the engineer knew would go wrong before he/she/it/they even started it. Honestly, anyone who failed the first time around with the angels should've taken a cue, and stayed away from creating anything else.
There are no theists on operating tables.
Humans were made to resolve a conflict that angels started. But the same question could be asked about angels. Why did God create Satan (or the other thousands of angels who followed Satan), if He knew he would rebel against Him?
I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer to why He created anything at all. I don't think God gets bored. But either way, I'm glad I'm not a robot for whatever reason God decided to let me be a free-willed individual.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
But te independent world--nature--has to have rules to operate by. if God created the world, and he created the rules, then anything that happens is the result of that intentional creation.
If God doesn't know what will happen after he lets go of creation, god isn't omniscient.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they had to have done so under what god knew what would happen. So if it was intended, then it isn't our fault, and to punish people for it is absurd, whether the punishment is Hell or merely have to toil and deal with labor pains and such.
And if god couldn't foresee that it would happen, thne why call it god?
Saying that you don't know why god id such-and-such is a fancy way of saying that it doesn't make sense. So, why believe in something that doesn't make sense?
There is a further point about free will, moral culpability, and the Fall, if you want to hear about it. It essentially says that neither Eve nor Adam can be held responsible for their 'sin' because they had no moral free will before the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Thus, it is like saying that you punish someone for trying to gain knowledge, rather than for breaking a rule.
How could Eve have known that it was wrong to break the rule of God without any knowledge of good and evil? How could Eve know not to trust the serpent when she didn't know the difference between good and evil? In such a situation as Eve wa sin, the only possible thing to do was to eat the fruit, because she was left with conflicting information with no basis from which to make a judgment.
If you have no understanding of good or evil and one person tells you to eat the cookie while another does, how can you know which to trust? You can't say that you must follow god because he's good (you don't have knowledge of good or evil), because he's God? Well, how do you know that god is something worth listening to without such knowledge?
You are judging the situation from the point of view of retrospect. You have to look at it from the point of view of the person in that situation, with what they know.
Shaun
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
I've never claimed to know everything. So I wouldn't say I have progressed.
Yeah, I guess not ever existing would be better than Hell. But if you truly believe there is a Hell, wouldn't it be better to just let God save you from it?
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
So God Himself tells Adam a direct order, and he blatently disobeys, and he is somehow not responsible for that? I fail to see the logic in that.
No it isn't. It only means that I wasn't there, I wasn't God, and I don't know why He did what He did. I can't think like God, so I probably am not going to understand anything about Him that He didn't reveal to me. He chose not to reveal to us His motivation in creating the universe. Maybe He'll explain it to me someday. Just because it doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean there is not a very good reason for it.
They knew that God was in charge. They knew that God told them not to do it. They knew the serpent wasn't God. So they chose to disobey God in favor of the serpent. They discovered evil the moment they decided to eat the fruit. It's not that the concept didn't exist. It's just that they were innocent up to that point. The serpent tempted them, but he did not force them to do anything. They challenged God's authority. They did so of their own free will. And it was motivated out of arrogance. That really was the first sin. When eve decided that she wanted to be as smart as God, or believed the lie that it was even possible for her to be as smart as God.
Your explanation is a very convenient guilt-remover, but it is not valid. To me that is the motus-operandi of the Atheists (whether they admit it or not.) To remove God is to remove responsibility for your own thoughts and actions.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Since you didn't respond, musicdude, am I right in assuming that you agree that you deny logic?
Because you agreed with
god is solely responsible for creating the "independent" system, and god knew exactly how the "independent" system would run, and knew when and how it would go off course -- and god created it anyway...correct?
www.andyhanson.net
But prior to eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve couldn't have had a concept of...
- What authority is.
- Why it is necessary to follow what anyone says.
- Why they shouldn't follow the advice of the serpent.
- Why they should follow the advice from God.
- Why rules can't change.
- Why disobeying is wrong.
- What loyalty is.
- What trust is.
Need I go on? If they were innocent (which, in the Biblical definition, meant naive, essentially), how can any punishment be handed down? We don't eternally punish infants for stumbling into vases...they didn't now any better.
As a addendeum to previous points, as well, prior to eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve could not have had what we call today "free will." Free will supposes that we have the faculty to make educated decisions. Adam and Eve didn't. They had impaired free will, if you can call it free will at all.
David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.
Yes, but how would they know that they are supposed to obey god or to not listen to the serpent? Wouldn't that knowledge presuppose some sort of awareness of what it means to be moral, to obey,to do what is right?
Do words like temptation or authority have any meaning without the concepts of good or evil? Perhaps they do in a general sense, but do they have meaning in a moral sense, as in that God has moral authority or that the serpent tempted them to do something that was wrong, without those concepts?\
Further, part of free will is understanding consequences. If you do not have concepts like good or evil, how is it possible to understand a consequence taht is bad, therefore something one must not do (or should not do)?
This idea is nonsense. The responsibility for my actions is as important as anyone else's. I have as much responsibility to act morally and ethically as anyone else, atheist or theist. I don't reject god to throw off responsibility, I genuinely do not believe god exists. I don't remove god, I don't see evidence that there is a god to remove.
I find the idea that without god there is no morality to be highly insulting, offensive, and (frankly and ironically) unethical of you to imply.
I don't think I'm as smart as god, I don't have belief in a god so the question of god's intelligence is meaningless until one can even be shown to have intelligence of any kind. I'm not trying to remove guilt for Eve because Eve is a fictional character. I was trying to demonstrate that the story in Genesis, if viewed as a story, shows that God put the first two humans in a situation where they had no means to understand the consequences of their actions, thus making the fault god's (the character in the story) rather than Adam and Eve.
It's like writing some software code that creates an error when run, then faulting the program. It indicates either a god who wanted that to happen or whom is too incompetent not to make the error, then getting mad when it happens and throwing out the program.
If read an mythology, I can take meaning from it. If taken literally, it's absurd.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
If by "better" you mean "insanely arrogant" then I agree.
If this is true (which granted you don't believe it is) who are we to question God's motives? But we are two people discussing the same subject from entirely different perspectives. That is almost impossible.
No, He didn't condemn us for being imperfect. He condemned us for disobeying Him. Angels aren't perfect either (see Satan) but some of them never disobeyed God to this day. It's not a matter of imperfect. It's a matter of free will. The ability to choose your thoughts and actions. The ability to choose to obey or disobey. Imperfection only implies the possibility of disobedience, not the inevitability of it. Again, this is not all about mankind. There is a bigger picture here. When God created mankind He had a purpose in mind, and that purpose was not to have a planet with tons of happy smiling people holding hands around the world. That is a religious lie, and it is not biblical.
I'm curious. Do you even know what those "rules" are?
I'm not convinced.
Let's say you are correct, and what God did was neither fair nor just. What does that change? You might say you don't want to serve a God who is unfair or unjust. But would you rather go to Hell than serve Him? What does serving Him mean? Respecting your fellow man. Studying the bible. Are those things so horrible? Are they worth going to Hell over?
But that is irrelevant. You don't believe God is unfair. You believe He doesn't exist.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
I've already explained that several times. If you don't pay attention that is your problem.
Blaming God for your inadequacies is a futile effort. Having the ability to be evil does not mean you must be evil. You have a choice. You could just as easily choose good. God created sentient beings with free will. They chose to use that will for evil. God created choice. Man created evil (or re-created it, because technically Satan created it first.)
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Let's say I have freewill. I have the freewill to choose to kill someone if I desire to do so. I have never killed anyone. Does this mean I do not have the freewill to choose to do so? Of course not. It simply means I do not act on my ability. This does not turn me into a robot. My freewill remains intact even if I do not utilize it to choose to do evil.
There is no reason I need to act on my ability in order to retain my freewill to be able to choose to act on my ability. Thus, it should be possible for a god who is responsible for every parameter of existence, as an omni-max god must necessarily be, to create those who possess freewill but freely choose to never act on their ability to do evil. If this god does not do this then he is solely responsible for the fact that his creations do evil.
How can evil be blamed on freewill when freewill does not require the choice to do evil?
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
Because God told them so. Just because they were innocent of sin doesn't mean they were morons. They lived with God, I'm sure they had more than a few conversations prior to the fall. The bible states that they were taught by Him daily.
Do you think God told them about Satan? I know the good angels know about Satan, He was once one of them, and I'm sure they witnessed the revolt. But they remained innocent of sin. Knowing of evil doesn't imply acting in an evil way. The only person in the bible who even said that Adam and Eve did not know about good and evil was the serpent, and he is not exactly known for his truthfulness. I'm not convinced that they didn't already know about evil. I know the name of the tree would seem to indicate that it contained that knowledge.
Satan was the one that told them eating from the tree would give them knowledge. God told them eating from the tree would cause them to die. They certainly didn't want to die. I think it's safe to assume that they wanted to live more than they wanted whatever knowledge might be gained from that tree. But they ignored God's warning, and disobeyed Him. They were innocent of evil prior to that, but I'm not convinced they were ignorant of evil.
So without knowing the consequences you are not free to act? Since when?
But how would you even define morality, except as a standard based on what is accepted by society at a given time. And what if that society becomes corrupt and evil? Based on your definition of morality, that would mean it would be moral for you to become corrupt and evil as well.
And you have the right to believe whatever you want. But I think you haven't looked very hard if you see no evidence of God. I would agree if you said there were no proof, but to say there is no evidence is ignorance.
Ok well instead of "no morality" let's say "flexible or relative morality."
Then why bother discussing this at all. Instead of trying to argue how God isn't fair, or how God is responsible for evil, wouldn't it make more sense for you to be arguing that God isn't real at all?
No it's not. Because that software can only do what you program it to do. Now write a program with AI, and then you have a valid comparison.
No doubt. But this is not a myth.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
This is absurd logic.
If I have a bunch of kids, and I explain to them the rules to play "Rock, Paper, Scissors," the first kid to throw rock did not introduce the concept of rock to the game.
David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.