How much of an effect do you think this site has?
I mean on 'deconverting' people?
I've been on this site for a while, the whole time as a Theist, I have yet to see someone 'deconvert' so to speak.
All of topics I've seen created by Theists for debate, don't end up raising the numbers for atheism.
So has anyone 'deconverted' or better yet, has anyone ever 'converted' on this site?
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Naw i already came knowing there is no god.
Here in lies my point. An atheistic website will attract mainly atheist.
But I have seen a small Theist population, and am wondering about the site's success rate so to speak.
Yes. There have been maybe a half a dozen or so that I recall who have come back to the boards and said that we were part of the reason they deconverted.
Also, you should realize that many people who deconvert don't announce it publicly. There have been a couple of people who PM'd me to say that they weren't going to be back, but it was because they didn't need to be here anymore. They'd left religion, and just wanted to leave it behind, rather than dwell on it by debating here.
In the end, though, I don't think many of us expect public deconversions. At any given moment, there are several hundred people logged in, and only a dozen or so posting. Furthermore, every time we do something visible on theist websites, ABC, or something else like that, our hits skyrocket. Theists are definitely reading. In the end, that's what we want. We don't care if they do it in secret.
(Incidentally, one of the people I know of who's deconverted is a personal friend of mine who read many of my posts and then emailed me one day to say that seeing it all in print made our live discussions make more sense, and that he no longer believed in the spirit world or god.)
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Books about atheism
Your probably right about atheists coming to atheists websites, however in my case i am not looking to deconvert any of my friends either, we have an understanding of live and let live (or die whatever the case maybe). However if any of them would ask me for any atheists websites i would mention this one for sure, and various others. As well most people that i do know are atheists or agnostics, the ones that I do know that are theists are strong believers, a padre, 2 rabbis, 1 immam, and a few followers that i have known for a good 12 years....and i doubt they are going to deconvert anytime soon, nor are they going to deconvert due to my arguements against religion, that much i know, i figure it will be either never or through a process of self enlightement.
Whether this site 'converts' or 'deconverts' anyone is irrelevant. There is a wealth of information on this site, which many of us use in daily conversations. Even in a face to face debate, it is unlikely that the opponent's mind will be changed but the listening audience will at least have something the think about. BGH started a thread about the movie "Thank You For Smoking" which drives this point home.
I know about 6 deconverts since i have been a member and an active participant in the Squad chat room and I've only been a member for about 5 months..... The thing about coming to a conclusion or realization is that it is your responsibility and yours alone to honestly look into the many subjects we discus about religion and god.... others telling you what you should or should not think does nothing, what i feel we try to do is spark a curiosity and a desire to inquire into these subjects. Only through true personal realization on how the world works will allow you to understand our position. Study the sciences such as biology, chemistry, geography, astrology and so many more as well as history and human behavior and your view point and knowledge of the world will grow immensely. We all come to our own conclusions from millions of variables. That's why we are individuals and not a collective.
Mr. Triple Z
I feel this site is also as much about bringing atheists together. not just about deconverting.
Well, when I came here, I wasn't really a theist or an atheist... and I'm still not. However, talking here has really let me review my thoughts and think about new things, and really reexamine my beliefs.
As for theists who do come, I don't think we make much of an effort to really change them.
BTW, please change your pic Pineapple, that couldn't be more homosexual.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
How can you not be one or the other?
And a giant blue man with a big grin on his face isn't?
At least mine's a girl.
Ugh... I hate explaining this.
Basically, I'm not theist because I do not believe in a god at this point. I would have no problem doing so in the future, I just have no reason to right now.
I would not call myself atheist, however, because atheists are for the most part areligious and aspiritual. I am not.
The example I usually give is this: a Taoist is not a theist, because he has no God. But would you lable him an atheist? Would he be here with us arguing against Christianity and organized religion?
It's Genie, second only to Mufasa in the world of Disney.
You have Sailor Moon, who wasn't even that hot. And I'm assuming your a guy.
xamination 1 - Pineapple 0
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Then you're a spirtual atheist.
Hotter than Genie. And that facial expression is...well......
Score one for pineapple.
Does this "spirituality" suggest dualism?
Meh. Details.
Did I suggest that Genie was hot???
...Pervert
xamination 2 - Pineapple 1
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
What do you mean by dualism? I used to know this, I really did, but I can't remember for the life of me.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Then why did you pick him?
I picked Sailor Moon because of the visualization of her pose pointing at you and yelling.
He's funny, he's all-powerful, he's blue, he's voiced by Robin Williams, and he's G-rated. He was a hero of my childhood. What's not to like?
As for yours, wouldn't an Uncle Sam be the same thing? At least that's patriotic...
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Mind/matter distinction, supernature, or a soul.
Not really, I'm Canadian.
Back on topic:
Who's online
There are currently 81 users and 287 guests online.
I can see the view of BGH's topic since there are many more guests than actual users.
Ahhh... that's what I thought. No for the first two - this universe is all there is, and your mind comes through it. The third... maybe. I can't say for sure either way right now.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Like has already been said, you cannot only rely on the active debaters to determine if your arguments are effective, the crowd is the target and most of the time you will not realize what effect you have (if any) on them.
Thanks for asking the question. I hope a few people come forward. The most well known deconversion we've had here was Chanman the 17 year old who ended up being the star of the Blasphemy Challenge video. We've had 2 people come back to the show after having interactions with us previously to record 1 minute segments on the fact that they left religion because of us. they're have been about 5-10 posts on this forum over time that have exclaimed they left religion as a result of this site (if anyone wants to research those and find the links, I'd be greatful... I could compile all the data in a central repository for future inquistors).
There have also been somewhere between 40 and 50 emails explainiing that our site helped them leave religion to some degree. In some cases some of these "deconversions" were simply the straw that broke the camels back. That is to say that while our site deserves partial credit for all of the people I'm mentioning, a few of them were almost there anyway. We've also gotten quite a few emails from people who claimed agnosticism before, but were ok with using the terms atheist agnostic to more accurately represent themselves.
There have also been quite a few people who become very immersed in our world. To the point that several people had made comments to the fact that they felt very alone and had nobody to relate to. This site has become their outlet and home for people they can consider a friend. This last paragraph, I'm referring more specifically to the atheists who found that our site helped them overcome hurdles they are glad to have overcome.
Lastly, I've said this before many time on the show. Often when trying to overcome your religious beliefs you run through sets of mixed emotions. From panic to shock to fear etc... it can often be embarassing to admit you were wrong for so long, and that even worse some of the people who you trusted were also very wrong. You are not going to get letters and comments from everyone we helped. In fact it is more likely that most people wont say a thing to us. We have an excessive amount of lurkers who read the data, absorb it, and move on, there is no way of telling how all of those people will be impacted over time.
For a while we tried to compile some of the more positive comments in one thread, but the project became too cumbersome as the positive comments sometimes are emailed to us at the rate of over 100 per day when you factor in myspace mail.
Here's a few from just this month (I wish I had kept emails of all the deconversions, but there have been too many to manage)
Much of my email is hidden in a hard drive I can't access right now, however the above emails were sent to us through our "letters of support" on our website. There are about 25 core members of the RRS that receive a copy of those letters whenever someone sends them to us. If anyone has the one from last month about the guy who was gonna kill himself and our site helped him overcome that, please feel free to share. (or any other of the dozens of emails you have that I've misplaced).
To date I estimate that about 200-300 people have come forward and stated that this site or one of the RRS members has helped them overcome theism. I extrapolate that data to come up with a reasonable expectation that it's likely our site is responsible for helping somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 people overcome myth. The FCC says for each person that lodges a complaint it's akin to 100 complaints (as most people are too lazy to complain). Well I think your whole world view shattering is likely to make you shrivel up a little more than laziness and believe it's more likely that for every person who tells us they deconverted on this site, it's more like 200-1,000 people who actually have.
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I actually know a few people who were members of my church who I had listen to a couple of RRS shows who began to heavily start questioning their beliefs. It wasn't so much just the RRS who De-converted them but it planted a seed for further research on their part. They like most Christians didn't even know some of the things mentioned in the show were actually in the bible from there they took the next few steps toward Atheism. And now they are Atheist. I also knew a couple of Agnostics who now call themselves Atheist. I myself was an Agnostic and I can fully attribute Rook Hawkins with my Atheism, He (without actually doing so) encouraged me to search deeper in the bible and actually learn about the origins and history of the texts. I wish I could spend a month learning from that guy!
Co-Founder of the Atheist/Freethought website Pathofreason.com
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Yeah, I can kinda understand them keeping it to themselves, or doing it through PM/e-mail.
This site has got me questioning, but I haven't been swayed yet.
Here's a question: should we be trying to deconvert people?
Would you find it absurd, or even abusive if a parent was still teaching their child that Santa exists, even when they were 15 or 20 years old?
It is not a matter of "deconverting" but getting the word out and letting people at least look at it.
I think your question may come out of the fear of how theists precieve us and the possible backlash from us challenging their beliefs. That would be an issue of "how" to get the facts out and not "should" we get the facts out.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Who is "we"? You have clearly stated in this very thread your wishy-washy stance on theism, how or why would you try to deconvert anyone? You play both sides of the argument and it seems when it suits your fancy you pick a 'side'. Why would you use a term like "we", it should be "I", because you have stated you can't formulate an opinion and therefore you are in neither camp (I will not get into the logical problems with this right now, maybe another time in another thread).
While I have always been an atheist, this site has provided me with a wealth of information. I find myself studying subjects that I never had before (mainly science). I've also met some really great people on this forum who I correspond with on a regular. It just feels nice to have a community like this around.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
I used to call myself an agnostic. After I stumbled upon the Blasphemy Challenge and took it (and got my dvd too!) I came to this site and read, "Am I Agnostic or Atheist?". After that, I realized I was definitely an atheist. I then read messages here, read "The End of Faith" and "Natural Atheism" and "The God Delusion" and "God is not Great" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" and "Natural Atheism" and "The Blind Watchmaker" and "The Selfish Gene" and "The Born Again Skeptics guide to the bible" and "Climbing Mount Improbable" and maybe one or two other books I've forgotten. It was the Blasphemy Challenge and this site that sparked me to devour these texts. So thanks!
Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
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Touchy, aren't we, BGH? I was talking about the general atheist population on this site - we was used, because "you" or "they" would be too confusing. No need to fuss over a simple pronoun.
And, tell me somebody, what is wrong with playing both sides of the arguement?
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
There isn't anything wrong with it, but the way you wrote that post implied that you were posing as an atheist when you haven't actually taken a stance either way. Of course there aren't any 'rules' with atheism so you can pretty much do whatever you want, but remarks like that won't gain you much respect from those that monitor these forums regularly. That's all. No harm; no foul.
It is plain and simple intellectual dishonesty. You earn no respect from either side and appear untrustworthy because of your ambiguity. You appear to lack the cajones to really evaluate the issue at hand determine where you stand. Instead, you remain safely perched on the fence, right in the middle where you do not have to be bold and assert a position. Safe from the slings and arrows from either side because at any moment you can claim affiliation with side that is firing.
You have said you do not believe in god right now, but you are spiritual. I would like to inform you, if this is the case, you are actually an atheist. You may not like the label, but it is fitting. The Raelians are atheists and they believe space aliens visited earth and seeded it with life, this is irrational but it not make them any less atheistic. Your spiritualness does not mean you are not an atheist, rather it means you are a different 'type' of atheist.
How does saying "I do not know" dishonest and not deserving respect? It's not that I don't understand the issues, it's that I don't know which one is right. If someone were to ask me if I believe in God, I would say no. But I don't believe that a God couldn't exist - there might be one out there watching me type this right now. I do not know at this point.
I'm not being a coward and trying to avoid attacks - I'm being honest, and that's all I can do. I cannot call myself theist because I am not. I cannot call myself an atheist because I am not. This isn't a cop out, this is who I am.
Maybe I'm not being honest with myself. That is something I will have to look at hard.
Ask yourself, though, why you are so certain about what you believe to be the truth.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Xam, if you do not hold a god belief you are an atheist.
If you do not hold a god belief but you are open to the possibility that one exists, you are an agnostic atheist. But... you are still an atheist.
You would be surprised to learn that many of the people here are agnostic atheists. We do not claim to have absolute knowledge, we admit there is a possibility god exists. When we argue strongly against a god, it is one that has been defined, i.e. the christian god. We can say for almost certain the christian god does not exist, their definition is incoherent.
You probably should read this:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/am_i_agnostic_or_atheist
I am one. I lack a belief in any god that has thus far been defined by humans. If, in fact, there is a god it does not make any sense to me that intellectually limited creatures such as us would be able to comprehend him/her/it. I do argue against man-made gods because they are unnecessary and have a way of infringing on others rights.
BGH, I would like to discuss this further, but in a seperate thread - we've gotten way off topic. I'll make it sometime in the next hour, and I would appreciate if you responded there.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Since no one has called you on it, I will.
-10 points for using the term "homosexual" as a derogatory remark. So what if Cap'n were homosexual? What does that have to do with anything? Please reexamine your use of the word "homosexual".
Besides, I can think of at least a half dozen images that would be more homosexual.
-Triften
Will do.
Triften, you are not a ref so you can't add or subtract points here... at least we aren't praying to Jupiter...
BGH, its in Freethinking Anonymous.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
I added some paragraph formatting to make it easier to read here on the forums.
The very last line is amazing.
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Yup, that's the one. Thanks Susan.
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RRS helps me in studying the phenomenon of religion. I'm still exploring the issues of 1) the existence of any gods (and goddesses--henceforth I mean gods to be a gender neutral and number neutral term) and 2) whether it really makes any difference.
I'm trying to figure out why I care so much about a question when I know the correct answer is most likely "(e) It cannot be determined from the information given."
Interestingly enough, it appears that according to the Rational Response Squad definition, that answer would make me an atheist. I hold no affirmative belief in the existence of gods.
Until recently I have not ever thought of myself as an atheist. Actually, I still wouldn't use the label "atheist" to describe myself any more than I'd use the term "a-werewolfist" or "a-unicornist" or "a-Loch Ness Monsterist." I think of myself as a pagan. But I have to admit that I really don't believe there are actually any gods. I am open to the possiblilty that there might be gods, but I don't have any good reason to believe that there are.
A Christian friend tells me that the reason I don't accept the existence of gods is that I think of myself as an "intellectual," and it's unfashionable for "intellectuals" to believe in gods. Maybe he's right. Of course, even if he is right, that's no reason to believe that there are gods, just a reason to recognize that my logical processes, like his, may be influenced by bias.
Pagans, of course, don't expect you to share any particular beliefs. You can pretty much get away with being an "atheist" (at least in the Rational Responders sense) and still be a pagan.
I'm contemplating whether I should still consider myself a pagan. After all, nothing I find in paganism has any rational basis. Clearly divination doesn't work (although it's fun). Pagan gods answer prayer at about the same rate as the Abrahamic one (the rate predicted by chance). I derive personal pleasure from candles and incense and statues of the gods, but I'm not sure that's a whole lot different from the pleasure Catholics take from the decor of their churches.
I think I've given religion more thought and consideration than I have given to other, more important areas of my life, such as how to make money. Therefore, my analysis should be somewhat reliable. Still, the human brain is subject to certain errors in judgment. We give too much weight to "authority." We are poor at evaluating risks and statistics. We are subject to biases like the "confirmation bias," meaning that once we do reach a "conclusion," on a particular matter, we tend to notice the evidence in favor of that conclusion and disregard evidence against it. We are subject to a bias in favor of positive beliefs about ourselves. We create stories and try to fit everything we know into the plot of those stories. And, as a group, human beings are subject to "magical" thinking. We see patterns whether they are there or not. We are subject to all kinds of errors that are given cute names like the "Lake Wobegon Effect" or the "Polyanna Principle" or the "Interviewer Illusion." We tend to think we're more competent than we are, which explains, for example, why over 90% of college professors believe they are above average at their jobs. Frequently training does not increase competence, it merely increases confidence.
Yet I'd like to think that there are gods. What's more, I'm unreasonably obsessed with the idea of gods. What is wrong with me that I spend so much of my fee time on the god question? I'm unlikely to ever come to a conclusion on it.
One thing I've been forced to admit is that religion is entertaining. Yes, perhaps all religion is just a branch of the entertainment industry.
Anyway, if I end up deconverting from paganism, as if I haven't already, the experiences I've had here will have contributed to the development.
Thandarr
Thandarr
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Congratulations, Thandarr!
You have come to your conclusions on your own through studying and learning. No one knocked on your door and demanded your attention. No one threatened you with eternal anything. You did this on your own.
That's very admirable.
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