Police: Man yelled 'liars' before killing 3 in church

Susan
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Police: Man yelled 'liars' before killing 3 in church

Police: Man yelled 'liars' before killing 3 in church

 

NEOSHO, Missouri (CNN) -- A man with a machine pistol stormed a southwestern Missouri church where his relatives were praying, shouting "liars, liars" as he opened fire and killed three people, police said Monday.


Eiken Elam Saimon, 52, has been charged with three counts of first-degree murder, a prosecutor said.

Police identified the gunman as Eiken Elam Saimon, 52.

He is charged with three counts of first-degree murder, four counts of first-degree assault, one count of armed criminal action and one count of felonious restraint for holding the congregation hostage, said Newton County Prosecutor Scott Watson.

A fifth count of assault is pending, Watson said.

Watson told The Associated Press Saimon targeted church elders. "It appears that the shots that were fired were not at random," he said.

Saimon entered a not guilty plea during a brief arraignment Monday in Newton County Circuit Court. The judge set his bail at $1 million, reduced from the original $5 million, and set a hearing for September 18, the AP reported.

Newton County Sheriff Ken Copeland said Saimon is being held in an isolation cell under heavy guard.

Saimon shouted "liars, liars, you're all liars" before opening fire with a semiautomatic machine pistol commonly known as a Tech-9, Police Chief David McCracken said.

When police arrived, Saimon had surrounded himself with 30 to 40 hostages in the sanctuary and "he was holding a female hostage at gunpoint," the chief said.

Witnesses told police that Saimon held a gun to one man's head and asked if anyone in the church was willing to trade their life for the man's, an investigator said. After no one stepped forward, the gunman shot the hostage, he said.

Five people were wounded in the Sunday afternoon attack at the church in Neosho, about 120 miles northeast of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Killed in the shooting were Kernal Rehobson, 43, Intenson Rehobson, 44, and Jesse Ikoshia, 53, Watson said. They were not friends or relatives of Saimon, Watson told the AP.

Prosecutor Watson also said Saimon also is a suspect in the alleged sexual assault of a 14-year-old girl Saturday. The girl is a relative of Saimon's, although authorities did not explain how the two were related, AP reported.

Wounded were Jim Handy, Melihna Tarra, Dahnny Jack and Handy Kendey, Watson said, adding that his office is awaiting the name of a fifth person who was wounded.

The wounded were transported to area hospitals, at least one of them by helicopter.

One of them required surgery, and two others were still in the hospital Monday, McCracken said. All are in fair condition and are expected to recover, the chief said.

Police received a report about 1:54 p.m. (2:54 p.m. ET) that someone was shooting inside the 100-year-old First Congregational Church.

A group of Micronesians was holding a service at the time, McCracken said. Saimon is Micronesian.

Micronesia is a series of islands in the western Pacific Ocean.

Saimon had three guns, including the 9 mm semiautomatic Tech-9 and a small-caliber handgun, McCracken said.

He ordered the children in the church to leave without their parents, McCracken said. The kids were all accounted for and were not harmed, he said.

Saimon is married and has a family, Copeland said.

The shooter was holding as many as 50 people hostage inside the church when officers arrived, authorities said. Police apprehended Saimon without incident after a hostage negotiator spoke with him for five or 10 minutes, McCracken said.

"He made the decision that it was not his day to die," the chief said Monday. "It was hard to tell which way he was going to go until he dropped the weapon." 

 

CNN's Sean Callebs and journalist August Skamenca contributed to this report.

Copyright 2007 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

Original article can be found here:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/13/church.shooting/index.html?eref=yahoo 

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Jarem Asyder
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I really dont know what to

I really dont know what to say about this. I'm sure the guy will probably get written off and no one will really look into why he flipped out, but I think its pretty telling.

It always gets to me that video games, tv, sex, etc. are so easy to blame for the cause, but no one ever thinks to level the blame at religion. To even publicly blame religion would get you laughed at.  


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Jarem Asyder wrote: I

Jarem Asyder wrote:

I really dont know what to say about this. I'm sure the guy will probably get written off and no one will really look into why he flipped out, but I think its pretty telling.

It always gets to me that video games, tv, sex, etc. are so easy to blame for the cause, but no one ever thinks to level the blame at religion. To even publicly blame religion would get you laughed at.

 

Nothing in the article indicates religion caused this. 


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Quite honestly, from just

Quite honestly, from just this one article, it sounds to me like his relatives accused him of molesting a relative and he followed them to church.

I'm a bit baffled that he let all the children go and killed strangers, though.

 

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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
 

Nothing in the article indicates religion caused this.

 

I know, I was commenting more on the fact that the idea wont even be brought up, and never is, even in situations where its more likely religion is playing a role.  


Iruka Naminori
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Susan wrote: Quite

Susan wrote:

Quite honestly, from just this one article, it sounds to me like his relatives accused him of molesting a relative and he followed them to church.

I'm a bit baffled that he let all the children go and killed strangers, though. 

From the article it's very hard to tell what his motivation was.  He was all over the map.  Like you said, he was pissed at family, but killed strangers. 

If he understands Christian teachings, he may have shown fury at the church when he asked if anyone was willing to die in the place of his hostage.   When I read that, I got a really sick feeling, especially when the situation culminated in the death of the man in question...ugh. The congregation is definitely going to deal with survivors' guilt.  They had a chance to follow the teachings of Jesus and they--quite understandably--were not able to do it.

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay his life down for his friend." <--one of the many bible verses I memorized as a fundy.  The example of Jesus laying his life down for strangers who didn't deserve it is supposed to be emulated.  Obviously, it isn't. 

I doubt I would have been waving my hand in the air, clamoring to die in place of the hostage.  In that situation, we'd all be pretty stuck, I think. 

If religion played a role, I guess we'll eventually find out.  Regardless, it sounds to me like this man didn't have all his bats in the same belfry.  

It sickens me.  God, I hope I am NEVER put into a situation like that!  

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Jacob Cordingley
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It's just sad. I hope he

It's just sad. I hope he gets mental help.


Hambydammit
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Yeah, I don't get how this

Yeah, I don't get how this is religious.

It doesn't say he's an atheist, or that "Liars" referred to anything in particular.

I know there's that other article that indicated he said something like "what you believe is a lie."  Judging by the distance from the story, and the fact that it's not included in the other stories, I kind of doubt it, but who knows.

As I said in Pineapple's thread, I don't see how this has anything to do with anything.  There are atheists and theists who are fucked in the head.  This dude is fucked in the head.  End of story.

I don't see that this has anything at all to do with the question of whether god exists, or whether religion is a good or bad thing.

And Pineapple, I know you don't see how it's different.  We're happy to claim that Muslims perform honor killings because of religion, and yet we refuse to accept this story as evidence of anything.  I know it seems like a contradiction, but it's not.

Atheism is not a religion.  Atheism is a lack of religion.  People don't do anything because of atheism.  They may have other beliefs that cause them to do bad things, but they don't do them because of atheism.

Bottom line: 

Nobody does anything because of atheism.

Lots of people do things because of religion.

Therefore, religion can be examined in light of what its adherents do, and why they do it, without atheism ever coming into the discussion.  If, on the whole, religion causes more harm than good, then it's a bad thing.

If you'd like to say that it causes more good than harm, you've got a tough road ahead of you.   After all, there is nothing uniquely good about any religion.  People do good things anyway.  There is no evidence that I'm aware of that points to any more altruistic behavior in religious people than in non-religious.  All we have to do, then, is demonstrate that people do bad things because of religion, and the argument is finished.  Religion is bad.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Cpt_pineapple
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Hambydammit wrote: Yeah, I

Hambydammit wrote:

Yeah, I don't get how this is religious.

It doesn't say he's an atheist, or that "Liars" referred to anything in particular.

I know there's that other article that indicated he said something like "what you believe is a lie." Judging by the distance from the story, and the fact that it's not included in the other stories, I kind of doubt it, but who knows.

As I said in Pineapple's thread, I don't see how this has anything to do with anything. There are atheists and theists who are fucked in the head. This dude is fucked in the head. End of story.

I don't see that this has anything at all to do with the question of whether god exists, or whether religion is a good or bad thing.

And Pineapple, I know you don't see how it's different. We're happy to claim that Muslims perform honor killings because of religion, and yet we refuse to accept this story as evidence of anything. I know it seems like a contradiction, but it's not.

Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is a lack of religion. People don't do anything because of atheism. They may have other beliefs that cause them to do bad things, but they don't do them because of atheism.

Bottom line:

Nobody does anything because of atheism.

Lots of people do things because of religion.

Therefore, religion can be examined in light of what its adherents do, and why they do it, without atheism ever coming into the discussion. If, on the whole, religion causes more harm than good, then it's a bad thing.

If you'd like to say that it causes more good than harm, you've got a tough road ahead of you. After all, there is nothing uniquely good about any religion. People do good things anyway. There is no evidence that I'm aware of that points to any more altruistic behavior in religious people than in non-religious. All we have to do, then, is demonstrate that people do bad things because of religion, and the argument is finished. Religion is bad.

 

 

My main concern is the (perhaps percieved by myself) double standard.

 

If Joe Blow donates to charity or does a charitable event and says 'I am doing God's work'. Did Christianity cause his action? The correct answer is no, there are secular reasons and there are  atheists that also donate to charities. 

Now, a terrorist bombs a building and says 'I am doing God's work', why not apply the same level of skepticism to him as you did to Joe Blow who donated to charity? They are possible secular reasons to the action, atheists are also capable of terrorism.

 

This is what I don't understand. Why only be skeptical of the good, and not the bad? Now can you see why I percieve it as a condratiction/double standard? If an atheist has secular reasons to do evil, why can't a Theist?


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Quote: My main concern is

Quote:
My main concern is the (perhaps percieved by myself) double standard.

I know.  That's what I just said.

Quote:
If Joe Blow donates to charity or does a charitable event and says 'I am doing God's work'. Did Christianity cause his action? The correct answer is no, there are secular reasons and there are  atheists that also donate to charities.

Correct.

 

Quote:
Now, a terrorist bombs a building and says 'I am doing God's work', why not apply the same level of skepticism to him as you did to Joe Blow who donated to charity? They are possible secular reasons to the action, atheists are also capable of terrorism.

Because religion is, pardon me, a two edged sword.  It says, "Do good things because your invisible friend says so."  We would do those things anyway, so it's pretty easy to follow that command, and we just go about feeling good about pleasing our invisible friend.  Religion (Christianity) also tells us to stone homosexuals.  Since it's against the law in our country, very few homosexuals get stoned.  But, in order to feel good about the invisible friend, lots of people try to pass laws discriminating against them, and you get people dragged behind trucks, and beaten up and left for dead.  Granted, some homosexuals would probably get beaten up in a world without religion, but there would simply be no basis for believing that kind of behavior was a good thing.  It would be deviant.  Science tells us that homosexuality is normal.  Science is correct.  Religion tells us that it's a sin.  Religion is wrong.  People believe religion over science because religion encourages us to believe things without proof.

 

Quote:
This is what I don't understand. Why only be skeptical of the good, and not the bad? Now can you see why I percieve it as a condratiction/double standard? If an atheist has secular reasons to do evil, why can't a Theist?

Again, you're missing the point completely.

There are non-religious reasons to do bad things.  And when people do them, we get mad and punish them.  Sometimes they get away with it for a long time, but eventually, someone calls them what they are... bad people.

When people do bad things because of religion, they often believe they're doing good because the religion says so.  Without the religion, at the very least, they'd know they were doing bad.

My mother is a Christian, and she's one of the most kind hearted people I know.  And she thinks homosexuals are evil.  Because the bible tells her so.  I've explained to her that science disagrees with the bible, but she will hear none of it.  Why?  Because of religion.  Without religion, she could have simply done what she does in every other aspect of her life, namely, used logic and science and gotten the correct answer.  Religion stops her from doing this.

Furthermore, we often excuse or condone behavior we think is bad, simply because it's religious behavior.

Without religion, behavior is judged based on logic and science.  It isn't foolproof, but at least the standard is consistent, and there is hope of improvement.

With religion, the truth is whatever the leaders say it is, without regard to the facts, and people believe specifically because of religion.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
This is what I don't understand. Why only be skeptical of the good, and not the bad? Now can you see why I percieve it as a condratiction/double standard? If an atheist has secular reasons to do evil, why can't a Theist?

Again, you're missing the point completely.

There are non-religious reasons to do bad things. And when people do them, we get mad and punish them. Sometimes they get away with it for a long time, but eventually, someone calls them what they are... bad people.

When people do bad things because of religion, they often believe they're doing good because the religion says so. Without the religion, at the very least, they'd know they were doing bad.

 

What? I don't understand this. I'm sure Stalin didn't say 'Hmmm I'm doing evil things....maybe I should stop? nah!'

 

FARC thinks they are doing good. They think a communist state will help Colombia. They are wrong, but they don't know they're wrong. 

 

No terrorist group refers to themselves as terrorists. They usually use 'Freedom fighters' or something like that. They think what they are doing is right, whether they are secular or religious. 

 

I don't see where you are getting this from. 

 

 

 

Quote:

My mother is a Christian, and she's one of the most kind hearted people I know. And she thinks homosexuals are evil. Because the bible tells her so. I've explained to her that science disagrees with the bible, but she will hear none of it. Why? Because of religion. Without religion, she could have simply done what she does in every other aspect of her life, namely, used logic and science and gotten the correct answer. Religion stops her from doing this.

Furthermore, we often excuse or condone behavior we think is bad, simply because it's religious behavior.

Without religion, behavior is judged based on logic and science. It isn't foolproof, but at least the standard is consistent, and there is hope of improvement.

With religion, the truth is whatever the leaders say it is, without regard to the facts, and people believe specifically because of religion.

 

 

I know of many Christians that would disagree with your mom.

 


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Shall we return to the topic

Shall we return to the topic of this incident?

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Hambydammit
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hambydammit wrote: Again,

hambydammit wrote:
Again, you're missing the point completely.... There are non-religious reasons to do bad things.

***

pineapple wrote:
FARC thinks they are doing good. They think a communist state will help Colombia. They are wrong, but they don't know they're wrong.

Very good examples of non-religious reasons to do bad things.  Thank you for the examples.

 

Quote:
I'm sure Stalin didn't say 'Hmmm I'm doing evil things....maybe I should stop? nah!'

 

hambydammit wrote:
Sometimes they get away with it for a long time, but eventually, someone calls them what they are... bad people.

You mean like Satlin, the bad man.  Again.  Thank you.  Great example.

 

Quote:
No terrorist group refers to themselves as terrorists. They usually use 'Freedom fighters' or something like that. They think what they are doing is right, whether they are secular or religious.

<

>Unless I miss my mark completely, and I'm sure I am not missing it, much of the jihadist (HOLY [email protected]!) literature I've read is completely filled with religious justification for terror, and uses the words terror and attack constantly.  Would they find another justification without religion?  Probably.  Would they get as much popular support?  Maybe, but I sincerely doubt it.  Is there anybody who actually believes he's going to get a bunch of virgins when he dies?  DEFINITELY!  Are there people who would not commit acts of terror without believing the religion?  DEFINITELY!>

 

So, there you have it.  Without religion, there's terror.  With religion, there's more terror.  End of story.

 

Quote:
I know of many Christians that would disagree with your mom.

Yeah, so let's just not talk about her.  She's completely irrelevant since there's someone else in the world who's not like her.  She's a bad example because she exemplifies everything I'm saying, and you don't like admitting you're wrong.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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