Christian letter to newspaper wants atheists kicked out of country.

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Christian letter to newspaper wants atheists kicked out of country.

Thanks to Splatterhead for alerting me to this on MySpace.

This is from a newspaper in Alaska

http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/

Taste for yourself the flavor of Alaskan persecution and some letters in response.

 

original letter:
source: http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stories/012907/letters_20070129001.shtml

Web posted Monday, January 29, 2007

Reader voices strong opinion on atheists
Letter to the Editor


It’s time to stomp out atheists in America. The majority of Americans would love to see atheists kicked out of America. If you don’t believe in God, then get out of this country.

The United States is based on having freedom of religion, speech, etc., which means you can believe in God any way you want (Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, etc.), but you must believe.

I don’t recall freedom of religion meaning no religion. Our currency even says, ‘’In God We Trust.” So, to all the atheists in America: Get off of our country.

Atheists have caused the ruin of this great nation by taking prayer out of our schools and being able to practice what can only be called evil. I don’t care if they have never committed a crime, atheists are the reason crime is rampant.

Alice Shannon

Soldotna
---------------------------------------------------

Another Letter

source:http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stories/013007/letters_20070130003.shtml

Web posted Tuesday, January 30, 2007

Reader: Wake up America
Letter to the Editor


It seems to me that the American people need to wake up to the fact that the Muslims are trying to dominate our way of life. If we let Muslims decide our politics, we as a society will be in trouble.

Recently a Muslim was elected to our Congress, they know the way to dominate the American people is through getting elected to higher positions, where they can influence our politics. In years past, a number of Muslims got elected to a Michigan town council and congress. I believe that this is only the beginning, despite an outcry from the local residents, the call to prayer comes over loud speakers and echoes throughout the city.

I fear that if we let anymore of these people get elected they will destroy us from within. They have proven they cannot be trusted and quite frankly are barbarians, anyone who cuts off heads in the name of Muhammad are not civilized people. We as a nation must protect our citizens, because one true agenda of the Muslims is to convert the rest of us to there thinking and if they get elected to higher offices they will have the format to do just that.

So wake up America, they have landed on our shores

Robert Ralls

Sterling
-----------------------------------------------------

A letter in response:

source:http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stories/021407/letters_20070214003.shtml

Web posted Wednesday, February 14, 2007

Writer: Diversity is country’s strength
Letter to the Editor


I’m writing in response to the letters of Alice Shannon and Robert Ralls, (Jan. 29 and 30). While I am no longer shocked by such outrageous and frustrating claims as were made in these letters, I am disappointed that my community would in any way support such bigotry.

Statements like “Muslims are trying to dominate our way of life” and “atheists are the reason crime is rampant” are clearly not based on fact, but also hateful and discriminatory.

Allow me to direct your attention to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. The combined establishment and free exercise clauses state, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or promoting the free exercise thereof.” This statement is interpreted by our Supreme Court to be a prohibition of the establishment of a national religion by Congress and of preference of one religion over another or of religion over nonreligious philosophies, but also as the absolute freedom of the individual to believe whatever he or she desires.

In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by Congress was intended to erect “a wall of separation between church and state.” That said, what difference does it make whether our Congressmen and women are Muslim, Buddhist, Christian or otherwise?

Surely Congressman Keith Ellison’s constituents could not have been unaware of his belief in Islam, yet he was elected by majority rule anyway. I can only assume they felt he was the best man for the job. If he is a qualified and responsible leader, he will fulfill his position and represent his state to the best of his ability, without being influenced by his religious preferences. It is my fervent hope that the same can be said of our Baptist, Catholic and Methodist representatives.

If you don’t buy into the Bill of Rights, Alice Shannon and Robert Ralls, then perhaps you should “get off our country.” Personally, I find your radical assertions an anathema to the essential tenets of the democracy we so often celebrate as the best in the world.

I miss the Soldotna of my elementary school years, before I realized my community can breed such hate and misunderstanding. What reason do I have to return home from college to a place where my friends of different race, religion or sexual preference are disrespected and treated like lower class citizens?

Why do we boast about America’s melting pot and teach our kids to be color-blind if we continue to discriminate against each other?

Diversity is our strength, not our weakness. If we can’t agree to disagree on the issues that make us individuals, if we can’t accept a new perspective as legitimate even when it doesn’t suit our personal needs, then our country can never reach its fullest potential.

Kelly King

Seattle

----------------------------------------------------

another letter in response
source:http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stories/021407/letters_20070214004.shtml

Web posted Wednesday, February 14, 2007

Country’s arms open to everyone
Letter to the Editor


In response to the letter written by Alice Shannon on Jan. 29 — kicking atheists out of the country. What an interesting concept. Who do we throw out next? Muslims? Jews? Buddhist? Then do we start on race? I see she covers religions and only mentions Christian faiths, which leads me to believe she is suspect of the non-Christian flavors.

If we stand by the Statue of Liberty that says ‘ ... huddled masses.” I don’t think it is followed with, “so long as they believe in God’ but not just any God. It must be the same God we believe in.”

There are many who feel we should blame the atheists for all the problems in our schools because they are not participating in “public” prayer. Nowhere does it say they cannot pray privately. And what did Jesus say about public praying in the Bible? “Thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men ... . But thou, when thou prayest, enter into the closet, and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret ... .”

Hmmm. He wasn’t mandating public prayer certainly.

There are social issues to be sure, but they have not come about because of atheists. There are many culprits to blame social ills on — alcoholism, abuse of children and spouses, drug addiction, etc. I think you get the picture.

Our country opened its arms to everyone. We were a young nation, we needed people with a variety of skills and they weren’t going to come out of just one country. We are rich in varied cultures, traditions and people of color. We are a strong country not just economically but in the arts and sciences. All those productive people are not White Anglo Saxon Protestants.

Ms. Shannon could merely be thankful “privately” that she has a personal relationship with God and treat others the way the Bible teaches, which is “Love one another as I have loved you.”

There was no parameters to “one another.” Mankind chose to put people into boxes, sects and mankind has done more killing in the name of God than anything else. I have yet to see an atheist crusader, or an atheist jihad. But in this day and age anything is possible.

One more thing: Be cautious about saying the “majority” of Americans want this. Quite possibly the majority are those quietly praying on their own not overly concerned about what the atheists are up to.

Ms. Shannon, I wish it were so easy to dump all of the worlds’ ills on one faction of society. But it isn’t that easy. And wars are started often because that is the mentality.

Debbie Andrys

Chugiak

-----------------------------------------------------

another letter in response:
source:http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stories/021407/letters_20070214005.shtml

Web posted Wednesday, February 14, 2007

Freedom for all citizens?
Letter to the Editor


Well I would say it’s fortunate that your readers who write in and insight hatred for any “different” people are safely tucked away in Alaska, but alas, the sentiment is rampant throughout this country.

Since when is an American citizen who is non-Christian white folk (because let’s face it, that’s who your readers are talking about) not allowed to practice and live however they please within the law?

Your readers speak of a Muslims and atheists conspiring to take over this country and that we should cast them out in the same sentences they write about our constitution’s freedoms to all its citizens.

Every group of people have a few bad apples: be them religious zealots (Hello! Pat Robertson, Ted Haggard) down to sports stars. But these people want those freedoms to be reserved for the Christians (but they’re kinda Christians). Funny, there doesn’t seem to be anything Christian about that. Well thank God we have freedoms that keep your readers from messing with our Constitution.

Michael Odishoo

Los Angeles

 

 


American Atheist
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Good luck.

I'd say go for it.

Good luck.


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damn good response

damn good response letters.  well done, I especially liked the reversal of the "get off of our country" attack.

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Oh, of course the founders

Oh, of course the founders of our country intended for us to beleive in god. They were all christian of course, am i right? haha


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willthescaryatheist

willthescaryatheist wrote:
Oh, of course the founders of our country intended for us to beleive in god. They were all christian of course, am i right? haha
]

Yes they were proper god fearing christians and wanted us all to be christians and go to church 3 times a week. That's why they didn't add the separation of church and state/ free speech amendment. 

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Thats also why they added

Thats also why they added under god to the pledge. Right after jesus himself told them to.


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I find it ironic that

I find it ironic that people blame us for the problems in the US. Even though we have practically NO VOICE in the country.

 

Just another case of the abrahamatics passing the blame. 

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Ophios wrote: I find it

Ophios wrote:

I find it ironic that people blame us for the problems in the US. Even though we have practically NO VOICE in the country.

 

Just another case of the abrahamatics passing the blame.

That and the fact that the Bible Belt has more than its fair share of social ills.


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MrRage wrote: Ophios

MrRage wrote:
Ophios wrote:

I find it ironic that people blame us for the problems in the US. Even though we have practically NO VOICE in the country.

 

Just another case of the abrahamatics passing the blame.

That and the fact that the Bible Belt has more than its fair share of social ills.

And the fact that these people no nothing of the religious neutral countries to the east.. 

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WOW! That opened my eyes. I

WOW! That opened my eyes. I forget sometimes that people can be very ignorant and bigotted. Nice they are still out there, keeps my reality in check, and gives me a good reason to challenge the people in my life (and around it!) who are ignorant and brainwashed.

I worked with children from a catholic school and a church of england school in the after school club. They weren't allowed to do halloween based activities, I got a informal warning over telling the kids about the origins of Halloween, about paganism and modern witchcraft and steroetypes and demonisation and persicution of witches.... The chairman and general manager was also the local reverend..... Ooops, I am glad I dont work there anymore!

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F-ck them.......I'm not

F-ck them.......I'm not going anywhere.


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Think of the irony if it

Think of the irony if it happened though. Suddenly many of the best scientists and scholars would be unavailable for educational and economical purposes. The country would derail.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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founders would be sick

The freethinking Deists,Unitarians,liberal Christians,Agnostics,etc, whom are the most well known and respected amongst the founding fathers would be disgusted at this crap, rolling in their graves no doubt!

I believe one of them actually spoek well of Athiests too, anfd that America is to repect the rights and equality of ALL- event he so-called infidels and atheists,etc.

Jefferson for example would've despised what is said of Atheists today, as would the even more deistic founders.

It blows my mind how ignorant also how many of these Christian morons love to quote "in god we trust" on the money and seem to forget that it was'nt even added till like 1940's or 50's.

The founders whom wrote the constituion did'[nt even to my undersytanding include "god" in it; other articles spoke of a deistic creator at best{in very brief}-whilst asserting that not even this view should be held aloft- but should be treated equally along with those of all faigths and even of Athiests and Agnostics.

The christian fundie idiots clesarly need to do their homework.

I enjoyed the responses that the original two recieved; this is a sign that perhaps Athiests are gaining respect finally; about damned time; Athiesm is a logical position.

In Reason:

Iconoclastithon 

 

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This makes me appreciate

This makes me appreciate Australian politics. Religion has almost nothing to do with our politics, unless it actually does have something to do with religion.


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Typical

This crap doesn't surprise me! Typical very typical.


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Ms Shannon and Mr Ralls

I think we need to call the fire service and tell 'em to to bring the "Jaws Of Life" to help extract thee highly repugnent buffoons heads from their ailimentary canals where they appear to be lodged.... Furthermore lets call the veternarian to render them incapable of mating and breeding.... Such idiocy should not be allowed to continue evolving.

It saddens me to see that there are still folks like this using up the worlds resources - even worse, that any organ would give them space to spew their vile nonsense.

Martin Stebbing

Chicago

 

 


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Trust in the Savior! Jesus is alive!

Well, as you all should know humans...that means you are 100% proof of Creation. God did create the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. This is just another fulfillment in prophesy. The world is turning on the Christian faith, its time to start opening your eyes and realize what actually is going on here. You say you don't believe in God, but God doesn't believe in Atheists. Put your trust in the Lord Jesus, we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Its time to truly taste the Lord Jesus, instead of dabbling. Jesus is coming back as a thief in the night for those who aren't ready. Be safe friends.

Taylor


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I say hell yeah! You pay for

I say hell yeah! You pay for me to move and I'm gone. I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again, we should have our own country.

And as far as the immanent demise that would befall the country... Fuck 'em. Let 'em rot.

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:3

Jesus Freak! wrote:

Well, as you all should know humans...that means you are 100% proof of Creation. God did create the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. This is just another fulfillment in prophesy. The world is turning on the Christian faith, its time to start opening your eyes and realize what actually is going on here. You say you don't believe in God, but God doesn't believe in Atheists. Put your trust in the Lord Jesus, we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Its time to truly taste the Lord Jesus, instead of dabbling. Jesus is coming back as a thief in the night for those who aren't ready. Be safe friends.

Taylor

Lol. Crazy christians.


 

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ClockCat wrote:Jesus Freak!

ClockCat wrote:

Jesus Freak! wrote:

Well, as you all should know humans...that means you are 100% proof of Creation. God did create the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. This is just another fulfillment in prophesy. The world is turning on the Christian faith, its time to start opening your eyes and realize what actually is going on here. You say you don't believe in God, but God doesn't believe in Atheists. Put your trust in the Lord Jesus, we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Its time to truly taste the Lord Jesus, instead of dabbling. Jesus is coming back as a thief in the night for those who aren't ready. Be safe friends.

Taylor

Lol. Crazy christians.


 

Well that's funny, I didn't know an omniscient being could not believe in something if the being knows the something exists.

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Nice. Anyone who wants to

Nice.

 

Anyone who wants to kick people out for their beliefs should perhaps try a more facist country on for size.

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

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How does a newpaper publish

How does a newpaper publish something like that without its editors being arrested for inciting violence, no way anyone would get away with that in the UK


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Quote:How does a newpaper

Quote:
How does a newpaper publish something like that without its editors being arrested for inciting violence, no way anyone would get away with that in the UK

In the U.S., people would start shrieking, "1ST AMMENDMENT!!! 1ST AMMENDMENT!!! THEYRE TAKING AWAY MY RITES!!!"

 

Most Americans tend to think that a document written at the end of the 18th century should still have exactly the same weight and merit at the beginning of the 21st century.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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:3

I am against censorship. Let the crazies say what they like.

 

I get to say what I like too.


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I'm sure the US prevents

I'm sure the US prevents free speech if it involves inciting violence against someone like every other country, I just suspect atheists dont count as 'someone'


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Jesus Freak! wrote:Well, as

Jesus Freak! wrote:

Well, as you all should know humans...that means you are 100% proof of Creation. God did create the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. This is just another fulfillment in prophesy. The world is turning on the Christian faith, its time to start opening your eyes and realize what actually is going on here. You say you don't believe in God, but God doesn't believe in Atheists. Put your trust in the Lord Jesus, we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Its time to truly taste the Lord Jesus, instead of dabbling. Jesus is coming back as a thief in the night for those who aren't ready. Be safe friends.

Taylor



Seriously, Taylor, did you think that babbling would make your case attractive?



Wait, did you say "taste the Lord"? What?



Okay, okay: let's play "Is it a pick up line?". Let's start with "Taste the Lord!"

 

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Jesus Freak! wrote:Well, as

Jesus Freak! wrote:

Well, as you all should know humans...that means you are 100% proof of Creation. God did create the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. This is just another fulfillment in prophesy. The world is turning on the Christian faith, its time to start opening your eyes and realize what actually is going on here. You say you don't believe in God, but God doesn't believe in Atheists. Put your trust in the Lord Jesus, we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Its time to truly taste the Lord Jesus, instead of dabbling. Jesus is coming back as a thief in the night for those who aren't ready. Be safe friends.

Taylor

I wish these kinds of people actually had the guts to stick around and talk with us. They might learn something.

Edit: How many fallacies can you find in this?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Most

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Most Americans tend to think that a document written at the end of the 18th century should still have exactly the same weight and merit at the beginning of the 21st century.

Why shouldn't the fundamental rights outlined in the Bill of Rights outlined in the Bill of Rights have the same weight today as it did in the late 1700s? Have the number of fundamental rights decreased since then? Only by shrilly demanding that our rights be respected and then protesting/rioting will they be respected. Unless politicians notice your outrage at the violation of your rights and feel that they could lose votes over the matter, they will continue to violate those rights. There are people who would gladly trample on every right you hold, be thankful some of us speak up against such abuses. Or is that just idiotic shrieking about some outdated document?

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

How does a newpaper publish something like that without its editors being arrested for inciting violence, no way anyone would get away with that in the UK.

Isn't the UK censoring criticisms of religion now (and they censor or ban movies, video games, TV shows)? We all love the censors until we realize that they'll censor us just as much as they'll censor the people we don't like. Atheists are too few to trust censors. They will censor our unpopular views while allowing other more popular views to be spread againt our wishes. If you support censorship, be prepared to lose the ability to legally criticize popular groups and ideologies. And while you are at it, be prepared lose the ability to legally view media that the censors deem is unfit for you to watch.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Jesus Freak! wrote:God did

Jesus Freak! wrote:

God did create the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. This is just another fulfillment in prophesy.

You have that wrong. Yahweh making the world in six days is not a prophesy. Revelations of the future are prophesy. Claims that your favorite deity used god magic to make the earth are just mythology.

 

Jesus Freak! wrote:

The world is turning on the Christian faith, its time to start opening your eyes and realize what actually is going on here.

This phrasing is ambiguous. Is the world turning to Christianity as in becoming more Christian? It is turning on Christianity as in becoming less Christian? I know that those Barna group polls show that my generation is far more atheistic than the last one. But that is your problem, not mine.

 

Jesus Freak! wrote:

Its time to truly taste the Lord Jesus, instead of dabbling.

We were dabbling in Jesus? I thought outright denial of his claimed divinity had nothing to do with dabbling. If you said that to weak Christians, it would make sense. But telling that to atheists makes no sense to me.

 

Jesus Freak! wrote:

Jesus is coming back as a thief in the night for those who aren't ready.

He's commin' TA' GITCH' YA'! But seriously, if he is going to come and convert me when I least expect it, then let him do it. Until that happens, I'll stick with denying his divinity, questioning his existance as a historical figure and denying the existance of the Father and the Holy Spirit. Though, for that matter, if Jesus is going to come and convert me, why are you trying to convert me also?

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Most

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Most Americans tend to think that a document written at the end of the 18th century should still have exactly the same weight and merit at the beginning of the 21st century.

Was that sarcasm?

Laws are laws. Their weight does not decrease with time. In fact, the Constitution holds more weight than almost all other laws since is the "supreme Law of the Land" and overrides other laws, including state and local. It's the arbiter, if you will.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Quote:Why shouldn't the

Quote:
Why shouldn't the fundamental rights outlined in the Bill of Rights outlined in the Bill of Rights have the same weight today as it did in the late 1700s? Have the number of fundamental rights decreased since then? Only by shrilly demanding that our rights be respected and then protesting/rioting will they be respected. Unless politicians notice your outrage at the violation of your rights and feel that they could lose votes over the matter, they will continue to violate those rights. There are people who would gladly trample on every right you hold, be thankful some of us speak up against such abuses. Or is that just idiotic shrieking about some outdated document?

Times change, and they tend to do so rather dramatically. At the time your constitution was established, chattle slavery was still an accepted part of society and was even incorporated into the document (you later fought a civil war to change that, of course).

Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, et all were not living at a time when street thugs armed with handguns were robbing convenience stores, nor did they have any kind of frame of reference that would clue them in that this would become a common theme in a country with widespread firearm ownership. They lived at a time where armed redcoats were at a considerale advantage to any American that was not armed.

Thus the inherent right for all citizens to bear arms, at the time, seemed like a wise decision.

Likewise, none of the revolutionaries had any precedent for contemporary radical dehumanization and the atrocities this can and has lead to (in fact, they were living at a time where dehumanizing others based on race was an acceptable policy. Again, we know better now). I think perhaps men as intelligent as the founding fathers of the United States would've thrown-in a few caveats with the 1st ammendment had they been able to see WWII propaganda posters or hear the plain abuses of it by agencies like Fox News to sew disinformation and lies while protected by law.

Again, at a time when there was no radio, television, etc, and it was much more difficult to play cloak and dagger with societies as a whole, free speech in an unlimited capacity seemed like a wise decision.

 

Why should one important document remain untouched for four centuries? I doubt that's even what it's authors would've wanted. I mean, look at work like Darwin's; he did excellent science and laid a lot of groundwork for future generations. That doesn't mean we learn nothing new as we progress or pretend that Darwin's word should be the last since he's the giant who's shoulders we're sitting on. We should be building on what we've been given, not treating it like it's the epitome of achievement

 

EDIT: Regarding 'shrilly demanding that your rights be protected' - how has that protected them? Your former administration trampled all over them anyway, and now is using your first ammendment as a shield to lie about it through media outlets until it seems true enough. Isn't your much vaunted 'right to bear arms' supposedly your vanguard against the kind of abuse we now unequivocably know happened? If that's the case... so? Why aren't you busy taking Cheney and Bush into custody under your own terms? Why aren't your precious guns giving you the justice you (or most americans) claim they will deliver?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Jormungander
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Kevin R Brown wrote:you

Kevin R Brown wrote:

you later fought a civil war to change that, of course

The Civil War was not fought over slavery. I don't understand how this myth persists. There were slave states that fought for the Union. It was not free states vs slave states. It was Union vs Confederacy and some Union states were slave states. Lincoln surprised people by declaring that slavery was to be banned.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, et all were not living at a time when street thugs armed with handguns were robbing convenience stores, nor did they have any kind of frame of reference that would clue them in that this would become a common theme in a country with widespread firearm ownership. They lived at a time where armed redcoats were at a considerale advantage to any American that was not armed.

Thus the inherent right for all citizens to bear arms, at the time, seemed like a wise decision.

The inherent right for all citizens (except felons, no voting or guns for them) is a wise policy today. Those 'street thugs' buy illegal weapons and aren't going to let alterations to the 2nd amendment to stop them from buying their guns. Outlawing guns would prevent street thugs from owning guns the same way that outlawing drugs has prevented street thugs from owning drugs. If you want to create larger and more profitable criminal networks that sell illegal guns, then ban guns. I'm certain we can do to guns what we have done to recreation drugs in the US: we can create a multi-billion dollar per year criminal smuggling network that fuels gang profits and gang violence.

Gun ownership is a perfect example of what I was talking about. At this point most Democrat congressmen don't support a new assault weapons ban. Gun owners made a big fuss about the proposed ban and now Democrats realize that they will lose political power if they scare Americans with new gun restrictions. I know that they actually do want to pass the ban, but they want to hold a continued majority in the House even more. Gun owners shrilly crying out that Obama and the Democrats are going to legislate away our gun rights seems to have worked (at least for the moment). Enough Democrat politicians are convinced that anti-gun legislation leads to the Republicans getting voted into office. Getting mad and loud can actually work.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

I think perhaps men as intelligent as the founding fathers of the United States would've thrown-in a few caveats with the 1st ammendment had they been able to see WWII propaganda posters or hear the plain abuses of it by agencies like Fox News to sew disinformation and lies while protected by law.

I fully support Fox New's freedom of speech (and CNN's and PBS's and BBC's and all other news sources). I don't support censorship even of outright disinformation. Like most news stations, Fox News is a propaganda machine who's purpose is to get people to vote and think a certain way. Fox is just very clumsy at being a vehicle meant to influence voters. Their lack of subtlety merely makes their attempts at manipulation more obvious than their somewhat more honest competitors. The WWII propaganda you mention was made by the government. If the 1st Amendment didn't protect dehumanization, the government would still have done it. The government doesn't need permission for the Bill of Rights to do something.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

free speech in an unlimited capacity seemed like a wise decision.

It still is a wise decision. There actually are caveats to it to stop the worse abuses such as clear and present danger, slander and libel. Unless your speach is very likely to cause immediate bodily harm at your current location or is using lies to harm someone's livelihood, it should be protected. I am lucky enough as an American to have a government that recognizes that right and a citizenship that responds with shrill cries of injustice when that right is violated.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Why should one important document remain untouched for four centuries?

We call our updates of the Constitution "amendments." It has not remained untouched for the past 200 years thanks to those amendments. The thing is, stripping away fundamental rights is not the kind of change to the Constitution that most Americans want. We get it that the the Bill of Rights is a tool that can be used against unjust laws. The Heller v. D.C. Supreme Court decision comes to mind. The only reason that the D.C. gun ban was overturned is that the 2nd Amendment exists. Someone basically said 'Hey, the 2nd Amendment says I get guns, D.C. says I don't. Make D.C. stop Supreme Court" And the Supreme Court agreed to strike down the unjust anti-gun law only because it was not consistent to the Constitutional right to bear arms as is granted by the Second Amendment. The examples of people appealing the Bill of Rights to get unjust laws struck down are too numerous to relate here. We would be stupid to deny ourselves that tool against bad laws. How would it benefit us to lose Constitutional protection of fundamental rights?

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

We should be building on what we've been given, not treating it like it's the epitome of achievement

The Constitution isn't perfect. It is merely really, really good. It may not be perfect, but stripping away guarentees of rights in it isn't going to make it any better. Adding more protections against have the Government violate rights might improve it; but taking away protections isn't an improvement on it at all.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Isn't your much vaunted 'right to bear arms' supposedly your vanguard against the kind of abuse we now unequivocably know happened?

Nope. Owning guns doesn't stop wire taps, unjust wars or Fox News corresponents from lying. I don't remember anyone claiming that gun ownership was a vanguard against those things.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Why aren't you busy taking Cheney and Bush into custody under your own terms?

I don't understand what you mean. Why would I (or other gun owners) want to do that? Because they are liars? Because they started wars? Because they authorized other people to record phone conversations? I'll need an explanation of the rational behind wanting to kidnap Bush and Cheney to make sense of this.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Why aren't your precious guns giving you the justice you (or most americans) claim they will deliver?

We get it that guns aren't magic. My 'precious guns' don't somehow fix crappy governments or prevent Fox News from lying. Luckily, the Second Amendment is about private ownership of firearms for the purposes of self-defense (see Heller v. D.C. Supreme Court opinion) and not about doling out justice. My 'precious guns' are for having fun shooting at targets and for self defense shooting at intruders. I don't know if you are intentionally straw-manning me; but let's just say that you are arguing against views that I don't seem to hold.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Thus the

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Thus the inherent right for all citizens to bear arms, at the time, seemed like a wise decision.

Then you must change the law. You can't declare it obsolete on whim. The entire document is valid until you change it; it's not the same as a scientific theory.


 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Quote:The Civil War was not

Quote:
The Civil War was not fought over slavery. I don't understand how this myth persists. There were slave states that fought for the Union. It was not free states vs slave states. It was Union vs Confederacy and some Union states were slave states. Lincoln surprised people by declaring that slavery was to be banned.

It's those damn activist historians perpetrating the Liberal Hoax. They claim that Lincoln's campaign for the Republican Party that won him the 1860 election included prohibitions on the expansion of chattle slavery, that the deep southern states that were the first to secede had the highest number of plantations, that the number of platantations per state correlated with how likely a state was to secede and that politicians and editorials throughout the south were ablaze with fearful rhetoric that Lincoln was going to take away their slaves (though this was not actually the case at the outset) and so secession was their only choice.

Damn lying historians with their inconvenient facts and pieces of data that surely they must've forged as part of some grand conspiracy to support the myth of the link between slaveryand the civil war (everyone really knows that the civil war was fought because them pinko yankees were just jealous of the agricultural success that chattel slavery had brought to the good, decent Confederate folks).

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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"I would save the Union. I

"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views."

Abraham Lincoln, August 22, 1862

Letter to Horace Greeley

What was that you said about historical facts?

Of course Lincoln was against owning slaves. He was open about that. But the Civil War was fought over keeping the Union intact. The Civil War was not fought over slavery. Period.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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:3

:3


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The civil war was fought between two opposing systems of government, one placing more power in a federal government, the other more in the states.

 

 

That was the real issue behind it. Federation vs Confederation. Slavery was a topic yes, but it was not the heart of the reason. The heart of the reason was simply who was to have power over what.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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 The letter might have been

 The letter might have been a fake but it sadly represented many of the feelings people do have torwards atheists. I have no religion or no god i believe something is out there but i wouldnt say it's a god. I don't go to church but instead go to mexico every sunday and take clothes to poor families. I gives poor children food and when i come home i bring home a homeless animal and give them a new home. Am I evil because of this. I believe that instead of wasting my time on praying for something to happen i instead go out and do something to help better the world. Is that a sin? And also in the pledge of allegiance it's not one nation under god,, it's supposed to be one nation under citizens rule. because last time i checked it was not god who chooses our presidents, there is no divine right in our nation of america. But it is the people who run this country. Wow i am only seventeen but i understand alot of things. And what you people are saying about this is total segregation and discrimination. they guys are the nazis and the atheists are the jews. Do they want to kill the atheists too? i hope not. Stop attacking other people. Just because it makes you feel powerful. People become dictators this way. lets have peace...